Topic: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?

[welshwitch]

It would also be a place devoid of a critical audience - nature the setting, animals the focus, the rest of humanity well away - and the ranch would be a place from which they could to some degree keep outsiders. no Aguirre with his binoculars, no pickups driving past or neighbors with curious stares, no wives urging them to work harder at the family business or get a better job.

Ennis's father was clearly a man of strong opinions, which he tried to impose on his sone; Jack's father was controlling and disapproving. On their own ranch the two of them could create what they wanted, free of the constant evaluation and criticism of others.

[babytammy7]

It would also be a place devoid of a critical audience - nature the setting, animals the focus, the rest of humanity well away - and the ranch would be a place from which they could to some degree keep outsiders. no Aguirre with his binoculars, no pickups driving past or neighbors with curious stares, no wives urging them to work harder at the family business or get a better job.

Ennis's father was clearly a man of strong opinions, which he tried to impose on his sone; Jack's father was controlling and disapproving. On their own ranch the two of them could create what they wanted, free of the constant evaluation and criticism of others.

AMEN!!!!

That really had been in that way, better for them.

[myprivatejack]

It would also be a place devoid of a critical audience - nature the setting, animals the focus, the rest of humanity well away - and the ranch would be a place from which they could to some degree keep outsiders. no Aguirre with his binoculars, no pickups driving past or neighbors with curious stares, no wives urging them to work harder at the family business or get a better job.

Ennis's father was clearly a man of strong opinions, which he tried to impose on his sone; Jack's father was controlling and disapproving. On their own ranch the two of them could create what they wanted, free of the constant evaluation and criticism of others.

I agree,a ranch together not only would be the realisation of their dreams,but also the realisation of their need of being accepted and appraised in their daily work,as they never were by their own fathers.Then,no criticism,neither for their way of living,nor for the way they did that daily life.

[tpe]

It would also be a place devoid of a critical audience - nature the setting, animals the focus, the rest of humanity well away - and the ranch would be a place from which they could to some degree keep outsiders. no Aguirre with his binoculars, no pickups driving past or neighbors with curious stares, no wives urging them to work harder at the family business or get a better job.

Ennis's father was clearly a man of strong opinions, which he tried to impose on his sone; Jack's father was controlling and disapproving. On their own ranch the two of them could create what they wanted, free of the constant evaluation and criticism of others.

A ranch then is an idealization, as much as it embodies Jack's dream of a life with Ennis.    Perhaps for Jack, a life without the "ranch" would not be a life.    Perhaps in the end, it came to embody a life with Ennis.  To give up on it would be tantamount to giving Ennis up.

[aintfoolin]

Jack could have easily took the money from LD and set off on his own to start a ranch. But one central element would be  missing. One guess who that was. With out Ennis, it meant nothing. Make or break.

 He loved Ennis and wanted to live out his dream , his life, with him . only  then  would there be  more than enough time. together and Ennis would never have to  leave him again.  Yeah, he could've hired ranch hands , hooked up with  Randall , done it on his own.. etc, but Ennis was the essential part of Jack's dream. He wanted him there to share it with him as a partner.   As Tpe said Ennis "embodied"  Jack's dream. ( I love that!) Perhaps it's why the dream  of owning his own spread never materialized for Jack. It was all or nothing.

[babytammy7]

Jack could have easily took the money from LD and set off on his own to start a ranch. But one central element would be  missing. One guess who that was. With out Ennis, it meant nothing. Make or break.

 He loved Ennis and wanted to live out his dream , his life, with him . only  then  would there be  more than enough time. together and Ennis would never have to  leave him again.  Yeah, he could've hired ranch hands , hooked up with  Randall , done it on his own.. etc, but Ennis was the essential part of Jack's dream. He wanted him there to share it with him as a partner.   As Tpe said Ennis "embodied"  Jack's dream. ( I love that!) Perhaps it's why the dream  of owning his own spread never materialized for Jack. It was all or nothing.

For me Ennis was not the essential part of Jack's dream. As you said Jack could have hired ranch hands or maybe do it on his own, but he didn't do it.....'cause his dream only made sense with Ennis in it. Ennis was Jack's dream!! Just IMHO. 

[tpe]

Jack could have easily took the money from LD and set off on his own to start a ranch. But one central element would be  missing. One guess who that was. With out Ennis, it meant nothing. Make or break.

 He loved Ennis and wanted to live out his dream , his life, with him . only  then  would there be  more than enough time. together and Ennis would never have to  leave him again.  Yeah, he could've hired ranch hands , hooked up with  Randall , done it on his own.. etc, but Ennis was the essential part of Jack's dream. He wanted him there to share it with him as a partner.   As Tpe said Ennis "embodied"  Jack's dream. ( I love that!) Perhaps it's why the dream  of owning his own spread never materialized for Jack. It was all or nothing.

I would again venture to say that the ranch was incidental, and as you have said, it was Ennis that was at the core of that dream.

And your comment brought to my mind a curious question: in what way would sharing a life with Randall differ fundamentally from jack's dream of a life with Ennis?  I have no doubt that a fundamental difference exists, but I have yet to articulate it properly.  Any thoughts on this?

[tpe]

For me Ennis was not the essential part of Jack's dream. As you said Jack could have hired ranch hands or maybe do it on his own, but he didn't do it.....'cause his dream only made sense with Ennis in it. Ennis was Jack's dream!! Just IMHO. 

Excellent point.  It hints at the answer I posed in my previous post, I suppose.  That is a subtle distinction: being a part as opposed to being the one.

[welshwitch]

Doesn't it have to do with love versus liking or affection or attraction ? I don't think Jack needed to think about whether or not to throw in his lot with Ennis - it was just what he wanted to do and had Ennis co-operated would have done. With Randall it might have been more a question of Jack's being flattered by the attention, finding Randall attractive as a person and as an alternative to a life with Lureen but wrthout Ennis.
For me the ranch with Ennis is the dream but the reality, which maybe Jack is coming to face before he dies, is that the dream will never come about but could exist in a partial way with someone else. Whether he could then sustain a life with someone for whom he felt liking and attraction rather than love is another question.

[tpe]

Doesn't it have to do with love versus liking or affection or attraction ? I don't think Jack needed to think about whether or not to throw in his lot with Ennis - it was just what he wanted to do and had Ennis co-operated would have done. With Randall it might have been more a question of Jack's being flattered by the attention, finding Randall attractive as a person and as an alternative to a life with Lureen but wrthout Ennis.
For me the ranch with Ennis is the dream but the reality, which maybe Jack is coming to face before he dies, is that the dream will never come about but could exist in a partial way with someone else. Whether he could then sustain a life with someone for whom he felt liking and attraction rather than love is another question.

The word "partial" makes all the difference.  When a dream comes crashing down, even fragments of the whole would be considered worth saving, whatever the cost.  And you are also right: that it remained to be seen whether a life of liking (as opposed to a life of loving) would have been enough to sustain it.

[Matt Nasty]

god this could be a confusing post but please bare with me and try to untangle it and make at least some sense of it lol. i admire jacks dream of the ranch and i feel bad that ennis couldnt bring himself to live by it. i think there best option would be to get a ranch but live seperate keep there meetings still a secret if they lived close it wouldnt look suspiciouse for them to go see each other at each others homes and jack may have lived if this happened. saddly however he didnt  :\'(and it was one of the sadest and most powerful moments in movie history. i only recently watched the film so i already knew one of them died but i hadnt payed much attention to which 1. but when i actually watched it and the postcard was returned with deceased i had one of thos moments when your heart swells and you feel you will explode. how ever having a ranch together could have just gotten them both killed so  i guess we will never know

[tpe]

god this could be a confusing post but please bare with me and try to untangle it and make at least some sense of it lol. i admire jacks dream of the ranch and i feel bad that ennis couldnt bring himself to live by it. i think there best option would be to get a ranch but live seperate keep there meetings still a secret if they lived close it wouldnt look suspiciouse for them to go see each other at each others homes and jack may have lived if this happened. saddly however he didnt  :\'(and it was one of the sadest and most powerful moments in movie history. i only recently watched the film so i already knew one of them died but i hadnt payed much attention to which 1. but when i actually watched it and the postcard was returned with deceased i had one of thos moments when your heart swells and you feel you will explode. how ever having a ranch together could have just gotten them both killed so  i guess we will never know

I do think this was suggested beofe, and I do think it should have been considered.   

One things for certain, the symbolic act of living together on the same ranch (whether or not under the same roof) seemed to have meant more to Jack than to Ennis.

[Matt Nasty]

One things for certain, the symbolic act of living together on the same ranch (whether or not under the same roof) seemed to have meant more to Jack than to Ennis.

you know im not sure about that i think. it looks that way but for me the looks ennis gives when its mentioned by jack are so torn up i think it is just as much his dream but his logical personality prevents him from accepting this as an opption. just barainstorming i do this alot i never leave stones unturned lol

[tpe]

you know im not sure about that i think. it looks that way but for me the looks ennis gives when its mentioned by jack are so torn up i think it is just as much his dream but his logical personality prevents him from accepting this as an opption. just barainstorming i do this alot i never leave stones unturned lol

But I think this is precisely my point, zankou1991.  Ther mere fact that Ennis was unwilling to take the risk (i.e., against all logic) that Jack was willing to take indicates that it was less central to Ennis's psyche.  This is not to say that he didn't like to live with Jack -- but it is clear that his fears got the better of him, at least enough for him NOT to act on his true/inner desires.

[Matt Nasty]

But I think this is precisely my point, zankou1991.  Ther mere fact that Ennis was unwilling to take the risk (i.e., against all logic) that Jack was willing to take indicates that it was less central to Ennis's psyche.  This is not to say that he didn't like to live with Jack -- but it is clear that his fears got the better of him, at least enough for him NOT to act on his true/inner desires.

yer i see your point 

[lightnin flat]

   


   i think to jack it would be a dream come true  

  but to ennis i am not quite sure 

[Matt Nasty]

   


   i think to jack it would be a dream come true  

  but to ennis i am not quite sure 

yer i agree but i think secretly it was ennis's dream too yey ive got 300 posts

[tpe]

IN a way, it was probably a bigger deal for Ennis no?  He had so many problems doing this, even if they simply found a way to move in close proximity, I think he would still have had issues with this.  Being seen with Jack out in the open seemed to have been a problem for him, especially after the divorce.  I attribute this to that fact that he knew other people already knew -- Alma, in particular.  I suspwect that Ennis's paranoia was not exactly without grounds...

[Matt Nasty]

IN a way, it was probably a bigger deal for Ennis no?  He had so many problems doing this, even if they simply found a way to move in close proximity, I think he would still have had issues with this.  Being seen with Jack out in the open seemed to have been a problem for him, especially after the divorce.  I attribute this to that fact that he knew other people already knew -- Alma, in particular.  I suspwect that Ennis's paranoia was not exactly without grounds...

yes his paronia was pretty well justified he could never be sure quite who knew, for example alma could have told munroe who could have then told anyone. wether this was the reality or not ennis had the right to be paronoid

[tpe]

yes his paronia was pretty well justified he could never be sure quite who knew, for example alma could have told munroe who could have then told anyone. wether this was the reality or not ennis had the right to be paronoid

I somehow felt that it would have been impossible for Alma NOT to have told Monroe after the Thanksgiving fight.  But then again, maybe Monroe would have simply guessed from various hints that would have come out of Alma over the years...

[myprivatejack]

I somehow felt that it would have been impossible for Alma NOT to have told Monroe after the Thanksgiving fight.  But then again, maybe Monroe would have simply guessed from various hints that would have come out of Alma over the years...

I agree with you,and in this sense is easier to understand that the divorce,that might have been seen as a liberation for Ennis,was indeed a kind of chain around him.As a married man he could have a freedom somehow that,after being a single man again,could easily put him in the middle of people's gossip,no?.Even if Alma hadn't said anything to Monroe,people in town could talk if they saw him alone or only in the company of another man...

[Matt Nasty]

I agree with you,and in this sense is easier to understand that the divorce,that might have been seen as a liberation for Ennis,was indeed a kind of chain around him.As a married man he could have a freedom somehow that,after being a single man again,could easily put him in the middle of people's gossip,no?.Even if Alma hadn't said anything to Monroe,people in town could talk if they saw him alone or only in the company of another man...

yer good point

[tpe]

I agree with you,and in this sense is easier to understand that the divorce,that might have been seen as a liberation for Ennis,was indeed a kind of chain around him.As a married man he could have a freedom somehow that,after being a single man again,could easily put him in the middle of people's gossip,no?.Even if Alma hadn't said anything to Monroe,people in town could talk if they saw him alone or only in the company of another man...

Exactly, for years, he hid behind the pretense of marriage, and after the divorce, Ennis felt he was more vulnerable to gossip and speculation.  Perhaps Alma's comment about Ennis needing to remarry was a subtle hint in this direction, no?   Perhaps she was aware that people were starting to talk?

[Matt Nasty]

i was just thinking i previously said i agreed that ennis had every right to be paronoid but i was just thinking if ennis had moved away with jack even if the people at his home town found out i dont think they would go all the way to where he was in lightning flat or texas to harm him, he would just never be welocme home but that would not be the end of the world. as long as no one in the place they moved to knew the problem would be all but none existant

[myprivatejack]

Exactly, for years, he hid behind the pretense of marriage, and after the divorce, Ennis felt he was more vulnerable to gossip and speculation.  Perhaps Alma's comment about Ennis needing to remarry was a subtle hint in this direction, no?   Perhaps she was aware that people were starting to talk?

Yes,for this reason Ennis felt more free having marriage duties,because,above all,this was a shelter for him in which he felt protected against gossips,no?.But being a single man -in an environment that almost obliged him to remarry-,would be easier for people to talk about this still young man who is alone and only seen going out with another man,always the same man.The shield would be broken.

[tpe]

i was just thinking i previously said i agreed that ennis had every right to be paronoid but i was just thinking if ennis had moved away with jack even if the people at his home town found out i dont think they would go all the way to where he was in lightning flat or texas to harm him, he would just never be welocme home but that would not be the end of the world. as long as no one in the place they moved to knew the problem would be all but none existant

Ennis was concerned about not being able to see the girls -- or is this a convenient excuse?

[tpe]

Yes,for this reason Ennis felt more free having marriage duties,because,above all,this was a shelter for him in which he felt protected against gossips,no?.But being a single man -in an environment that almost obliged him to remarry-,would be easier for people to talk about this still young man who is alone and only seen going out with another man,always the same man.The shield would be broken.

Yes, I think in the last years of his marriage, he used it more like a shield, although I am sure that he genuinely wanted things to "stabilize" somehow out of his love for the kids. 

After the divorce, being seen with Jack made him especially vulnerable, as you said.  The shield was no longer there to keep tongues quiet.

[Matt Nasty]

Yes, I think in the last years of his marriage, he used it more like a shield, although I am sure that he genuinely wanted things to "stabilize" somehow out of his love for the kids. 

After the divorce, being seen with Jack made him especially vulnerable, as you said.  The shield was no longer there to keep tongues quiet.

good point im liking the shield metaphor

[myprivatejack]

Ennis was concerned about not being able to see the girls -- or is this a convenient excuse?

IMO,it was both a real concern and a good excuse for not committing himself more than advisable.

Yes, I think in the last years of his marriage, he used it more like a shield, although I am sure that he genuinely wanted things to "stabilize" somehow out of his love for the kids. 

After the divorce, being seen with Jack made him especially vulnerable, as you said.  The shield was no longer there to keep tongues quiet.

He wanted it,but all his fears and paranoias-even if well-builded for the environment he was in-made him used it more and more to avoid posing this "main question" and,was it'd be worst,finishing by accepting it...

[aintfoolin]

 What it meant for Ennis was a life, contantly looking over his shoulder. Fear of ending up like Earl and Rich, and that meant loosing Jack in a violent way, or Jack loosing him to the tire irons. Does'nt mean he did'nt want it though.

For Jack it was stability, togetherness and no more lonley nights, or days. Also a solid confirmation and commitment of love from Ennis. It would show Jack that all his efforts/sacrifices were worth it and Ennis's too. He was right, they were safer together than apart.