Topic: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?

[jerasjr]

It seems that we have two different mindsets as to what this means to our boys - a battle of acceptance versus ostracism that shapes the future for them

[tpe]

It seems that we have two different mindsets as to what this means to our boys - a battle of acceptance versus ostracism that shapes the future for them

I get your drift.

I think, for Jack, it really was a dream to live his life in a way that brought him true happiness  -- to accept his own nature and his own true feelings.

For Ennis, it meant endangering what they already had -- exposing themselves to possible ostracism and persecution, if they dared to live in a way that society did not deem acceptable.

There is truth in both these facets -- in a way, both represent parts of each and every one of us.  They are parts of us that are always struggling, trying to find a balance/equilibrium. 

[manhattangirl]

These men were influenced by their fathers, and both trying disprove or live by their father expectation of each.

Jack's father thought Jack was nothing but talk, he had big dreams, but was short on reality.   Jack desperately wanted to prove him wrong.   Jack's wanted very much to whip that ranch into shape with Ennis by his side. 

Ennis father showed him what happens to people who fell short of what a "Real Man" should be.  They didn't "Ranch Up" together, so meeting out in the middle of nowhere was the only alternative as far as Ennis could see it.   

These two men were program to believe that who they were, and what they should be happened long before they met, so now they're faced with situation of their love for each other, and the preception that their relationship would either bring life or cause death.   

For them to live together anywhere in peace, they had to let go of the  influences of their fathers, say "The old man is just wrong",  but neither man questioned  their father's preceptions of them, or whether the old man was right or wrong.   

Until they were able to deal with their own perceptions of themselves,  they would always have that battle, and sadly I don't think neither Jack or Ennis would even think to ask themselves was the old man full of it, and go ahead with a life together, on their on terms, and no one else's.

[Tony]

  Hi, jerasjr----interesting topic for those of us who see the two as real.  Gosh, I actually see Jack's offer as almost--a marriage proposal, long
before issues like that came up.  As for Ennis, others can do better with his fear of commitment.  Only thing I could add is very small, and that
is that he may also have been uncomfortable becoming a property owner or "businessman".  Now, that wouldn't be the major factor, but Annie
did write about poor cowboys and Ennis may have felt his lot in life was always to be a laborer for others.  An additional insecurity.
  Haven't got MG's post right, probably, but the fact Jack could always  propose bringing someone up to Lightning Flat and sort of taking over,
suggests whatever authority his father had once had, Jack had gotten around him and COULD decide issues at the family ranch, and his father's
age prevented the earlier tyranny.  But, that's off-topic, a little, so will leave it there.

[lamusica]

I think Jack's fondest wish was to ranch up with Ennis, but not just to spend his life, day by day, with Ennis.  I think it shows us his yearning to lead a ranching lifestyle.  He was raised on a ranch, and obviously liked it -- felt comfortable there -- moreso than in a city or town in Texas where he lived with Lureen.  He wanted to get back to nature, to the privacy and calm quietness of a rural life.  If he could get Ennis to come along, he would have a slice of heaven.  Jack figured no one would question them sharing a ranchhouse since it took at least two men to successfully run a ranch.  He thought he and Ennis would be protected way out in the middle of nowhere.

Ennis, on the other hand, as was pointed out above, could only see as far as his father had shown him -- two men living together was suspect and could only lead to trouble.

I like to blame their fathers for their fears and prejudices, but it was more than just their fathers who led Jack and Ennis to fear discovery.  Surely they both worked with men who mentioned gays with scorn and distaste.  Ennis knew it wasn't just his father who didn't approve of a gay lifestyle, but all the men he had ever associated with.  He knew there was a real reason to be afraid -- be very afraid!

So, Ennis refused through his fear and Jack felt rejected and dejected.
What to do?

[jackster]

Interesting and perplexing question jerasjr.  I agree with Tony, seems Jack’s idea of “the little cow n’ calf operation” is pretty much a marriage proposal wrapped in a sweet money making idea. Little did Jack know when he proposes this idea, the idea he’d probably thought about while driving all the way from Texas, little did he know this very idea is what Ennis had so graphically been shown as being a deathwish as a child.

So where does that leave them? Is ranching the ONLY way they could live together, or is Ennis’s childhood fear of two guys living together (which just happened to be in a ranch) so great as to eliminate any other possibility?

To Jack the ranch seems the answer. To Ennis the ranch seems the problem. MHO.

[trekfan]

This is an interesting question.   I think that Jack was born on a ranch so ranching life was what he knew and if his old man wasn't a bastard and was a proper father to Jack, Jack wouldn't have been so eager to get out of LF as fast as he could.  Maybe he missed that life  and he was tired of being lonely.   When he met up with Ennis they were both 19 just starting out on their lives.  Making a decision on what they were going to do.   If Ennis decided to be with Jack after they got off BBM they could have gone and gotten ranch work together, saved money and gotten their own ranch.   OR 4 years later when Jack was missing Ennis, was miserable with Lureen and wanted to make Ennis the offer of a sweet life they could have pooled their money (taken what LD would have given Jack to get lost)  and started that cow and calf operation.  It wasn't just that he wanted a life with Ennis he wanted his OWN life, no one else dictating to him how to live. Like Lureen or LD bossing him around. He wanted to be his own man.

For Ennis, we know he came from ranch people, just like Jack.   I think Ennis would have liked to have had his own ranch, but unlike Jack (the dreamer)  Ennis could never see himself going forward, bettering himself.  Just like when Alma said he could take a job with the power company make better money.  For Ennis all he knew was ranching.  He did work on a roadcrew for a while but that might have been because there was not a ranching job available at the time and he had kids to feed.  So he took that job cause that is what there was available. 

He had that mindset of "if you can't fix it you gotta stand it" so engrained that the thought of making his own life and maybe having a life with Jack, being his own man too  just wasn't part of Ennis' make up.  He just didn't have alot of self esteem and thought this was his lot in life so he better get used to it. I'm not going to be anything more than a worthless ranch stiff.

it's sad that Ennis was such an underachiever.  Jack was a dreamer but he also had confidence in himself to some extent.  Ennis didn't.  maybe Jack's mom might have had something to do with it.  Maybe she told Jack he could do whatever he wanted to.   Ennis didn't have his mama to help him.  :\'(

[tpe]

I like to blame their fathers for their fears and prejudices, but it was more than just their fathers who led Jack and Ennis to fear discovery.  Surely they both worked with men who mentioned gays with scorn and distaste.  Ennis knew it wasn't just his father who didn't approve of a gay lifestyle, but all the men he had ever associated with.  He knew there was a real reason to be afraid -- be very afraid!

So true.  And even Jack knew the risk thwey faced had they ranched together -- he only chose not to show his fears.

[tpe]

So where does that leave them? Is ranching the ONLY way they could live together, or is Ennis’s childhood fear of two guys living together (which just happened to be in a ranch) so great as to eliminate any other possibility?

Good question.  I think it did eliminate any other possibility.  The choice of ranching was incidental, IMO.

[tpe]

For Ennis, we know he came from ranch people, just like Jack.   I think Ennis would have liked to have had his own ranch, but unlike Jack (the dreamer)  Ennis could never see himself going forward, bettering himself.  Just like when Alma said he could take a job with the power company make better money.  For Ennis all he knew was ranching.  He did work on a roadcrew for a while but that might have been because there was not a ranching job available at the time and he had kids to feed.  So he took that job cause that is what there was available. 

He had that mindset of "if you can't fix it you gotta stand it" so engrained that the thought of making his own life and maybe having a life with Jack, being his own man too  just wasn't part of Ennis' make up.  He just didn't have alot of self esteem and thought this was his lot in life so he better get used to it. I'm not going to be anything more than a worthless ranch stiff.

it's sad that Ennis was such an underachiever.  Jack was a dreamer but he also had confidence in himself to some extent.  Ennis didn't.  maybe Jack's mom might have had something to do with it.  Maybe she told Jack he could do whatever he wanted to.   Ennis didn't have his mama to help him.  :\'(

Excellent points here, trekfan.  This pretty much elaborates on the two different mindsets jerasjr referred to in the beginning. 

You bring up an interesting possibility relating to Jack's mom.  What if Ennis had met her sooner, when jack was still alive?  Would it have made a difference.  No need to answer this, if it strays too far from the current topic.  Perhaps a new thread?

 

[jerasjr]

Somewhere along the line, think that Jack was also seeking to reinvent that first summer - of necessity, in order to make a ranch a working operation, they had to be somewhat sizeable.   Establishing themselves on a ranch would create an artificial isolation much like they experienced on BBM.  When your neighbors are miles away, you gain a certain amount of freedom.  Can't help but think of a conversation that I had some time ago with people who lived where I grew up.  Their daughter had married and moved to North or South Dakota.  Anyway, in the autumn, they would stockpile everything that they would need during the winter because there would be times that they knew they would not be able to get into the nearest town or even to their neighbors.  Nature creates that isolation, and can't think it would be much different in WY, and maybe even worse at the time Jack & Ennis lived.   

[tpe]

Somewhere along the line, think that Jack was also seeking to reinvent that first summer - of necessity, in order to make a ranch a working operation, they had to be somewhat sizeable.   Establishing themselves on a ranch would create an artificial isolation much like they experienced on BBM.  When your neighbors are miles away, you gain a certain amount of freedom.  Can't help but think of a conversation that I had some time ago with people who lived where I grew up.  Their daughter had married and moved to North or South Dakota.  Anyway, in the autumn, they would stockpile everything that they would need during the winter because there would be times that they knew they would not be able to get into the nearest town or even to their neighbors.  Nature creates that isolation, and can't think it would be much different in WY, and maybe even worse at the time Jack & Ennis lived.   

Exactly.  For Jack, it may be his idea of Heaven on earth.  But I wonder if Ennis would share this?  I suspect that he may look upon it as a prison.  Or a bubbble, at best...

[welshwitch]

To some degree the hypothetical ranch seems to me to be a manifestation of the American Dream, an agrarian one of land and and the ability to feed oneself, of independence and liberty. I have a theory that when the frontier closed and the dream became less and less obvioulsy obtainable, Americans turned to artifically-created versions like the National Parks,re-created towns like Sturbridge and Plimoth Plantation and Williamsburg, parks like Disney's and even massive shopping malls, like the Mall of America, to fulfill the vision of an unspoilt world or abundance or community.
The ranch for J and E would have been another such place - the essential qualities of such places are that they are cut off from the outside world as far as possible, contain within them like-minded people with a common purpose and are only a partial version of reality.

[Tony]

     Welshwitch, you have a good take on how Americans create idealistic bubbles.  Am not lessening that by pointing out that much of what
you have noticed is a practical response to the disintegration of personal safety over here.  The malls, for example, began as much as a safety
issue as anything else, as shoppers were being bothered on the streets by panhandlers, the homeless, and gangs.  The malls, then, were
originally sold to us as a safe environment, where....people could be monitored and kicked out by security people, if they were a problem,
which is more difficult to do on open streets.
   And Jack's proposal of a ranch has some measure of that, too.  Safety.  Your own territory in a dangerous environment. But, as Jackster
pointed out, in a general sense, a ranch was the solution for Jack, but the problem, itself, for Ennis. (again, the safety issue seen from two
different perspectives.  Even so, I still think your observations on American culture are correct, and a major piece of the puzzle.

[tpe]

I joing Tony in noting WW's perceptiveness.  We Americans are always dreaming of our own place under the sun, no?  It probably accounts foe the constant movement.  True, there is a form of escapism in this.  There is even a controversial study out about this and the formation of American suburbia. 

In any case, I do think the ranch is a manifestation of that American Dream -- whether or not that dream is in fact a reality.

[manhattangirl]

To have an "American Dream", I like to think of it  traditional ranch thing of home, family, to even sitting at a lunch counter, to drink at water fountain and not be arrested, and the freedom to love, and be loved.  The American Dream changes as the times change, and it goes as far as you're willing to take it. 

The American Dream is varied, and could be different to the person you ask the question.  The risk is making the dream come true, feel the pain, like in childbrith.   Jack depended on one person to make his dream come true, Ennis didn't even know he could dream,  So what of the dream? 

[myprivatejack]

Well,I can´t speak properly about the"American Dream",but I suppose it´s similar to the ones of any other culture that rose or it´s rising from a rural environment.Here in Spain we can speak about something similar when the country when it overcame the effects of the Civil War and the subsequent boycot to Franco´s dictatorship opening itself to a more industrial future and,therefore,more well-to-do.I guess  America in Ennis and Jack´s time was changing quickly to an industrial revolution that affected greatly the country states as Wyoming.So,it´s natural that Jack got this opportunity of improving his social status by settling in a ranch of his own with the one he loved,in a changing environment that,perhaps he thougt,could lead to a more open society in economical and social,but also in,say,moral issues.
I think that what Jack was longing is for a life with Ennis,no matter where,no matter how,no matter when...and that the place where this happenned was an "extra" more or less important.He wanted to live every minute,every second breathing with Ennis breath,living with,for and because of him...However,and for this reason,as someone has said before,what gave him a opportunity of living the most similar to the happy times oF BBM was evidently a ranch for both of them; far from indiscreet glances,creating something day after day only the two of us, knowing and loving each other without interferences  of the outer world...I think that for him the idea was a liberation,more than the simple(?) fact of living with his loved.
And for Ennis?Ah¡ this is more complicated...Above all,the isolation far from "dangers" would make him feel happy by living with Jack,and in his inner,innest,self he´d find himself also breathing with Jack´s breath-I think that if he only left himself be free he´d admit he couldn´t live without him-.But fears were so strong in him that I wonder if their living together would be an"obstacles race" not so idilic and,at the end,-as I said in another thread-the love didn´t end,but perhaps their living did.For Ennis it wouldn´t be a liberation,but sometimes all he contrary if he wasn´t able to be free of these fears,and perhaps,of himself-his worst ennemy,not homophobic reactions...-.MHO.

[tpe]

To have an "American Dream", I like to think of it  traditional ranch thing of home, family, to even sitting at a lunch counter, to drink at water fountain and not be arrested, and the freedom to love, and be loved.  The American Dream changes as the times change, and it goes as far as you're willing to take it. 

The American Dream is varied, and could be different to the person you ask the question.  The risk is making the dream come true, feel the pain, like in childbrith.    Jack depended on one person to make his dream come true, Ennis didn't even know he could dream,  So what of the dream? 

I guess some people follow the dream without ever attaining it.  This is reflected in what you said: that it changes as much as time itself passes on from one thing to the next.  In the case of Jack, there seemed to have been a remarkable fidelity to one dream and to one person.  For Ennis, it was also embodied by one person deep within him, but the dream of hearth and home never really seemed to have been a part of it.  This to me seems like a fundamental difference between the two.

[tpe]

Well,I can´t speak properly about the"American Dream",but I suppose it´s similar to the ones of any other culture that rose or it´s rising from a rural environment.Here in Spain we can speak about something similar when the country when it overcame the effects of the Civil War and the subsequent boycot to Franco´s dictatorship opening itself to a more industrial future and,therefore,more well-to-do.I guess  America in Ennis and Jack´s time was changing quickly to an industrial revolution that affected greatly the country states as Wyoming.So,it´s natural that Jack got this opportunity of improving his social status by settling in a ranch of his own with the one he loved,in a changing environment that,perhaps he thougt,could lead to a more open society in economical and social,but also in,say,moral issues.
I think that what Jack was longing is for a life with Ennis,no matter where,no matter how,no matter when...and that the place where this happenned was an "extra" more or less important.He wanted to live every minute,every second breathing with Ennis breath,living with,for and because of him...However,and for this reason,as someone has said before,what gave him a opportunity of living the most similar to the happy times oF BBM was evidently a ranch for both of them; far from indiscreet glances,creating something day after day only the two of us, knowing and loving each other without interferences  of the outer world...I think that for him the idea was a liberation,more than the simple(?) fact of living with his loved.
And for Ennis?Ah¡ this is more complicated...Above all,the isolation far from "dangers" would make him feel happy by living with Jack,and in his inner,innest,self he´d find himself also breathing with Jack´s breath-I think that if he only left himself be free he´d admit he couldn´t live without him-.But fears were so strong in him that I wonder if their living together would be an"obstacles race" not so idilic and,at the end,-as I said in another thread-the love didn´t end,but perhaps their living did.For Ennis it wouldn´t be a liberation,but sometimes all he contrary if he wasn´t able to be free of these fears,and perhaps,of himself-his worst ennemy,not homophobic reactions...-.MHO.

I think everyone here would agree that thr actual location of the ranch would have been immaterial to Jack -- it was the idealized place in his mind's eye; the fundamental requirement was that it was defined by a life shared with Ennis.  As you said, this can be contrued as very simplistic in many ways.  And indeed, Ennis's thought of the idealized "ranch" (i.e., haven) lies more withing the confies of the mind -- in the idealized world of Brokeback Mountain itself. 

This is I think what Jack meant when he said that all they got left was Brokeback Mountain.  All they had was the idea.  And what he was at pains to try to Make Ennis understand was that Brokeback Mountain would be wherever both of them would be together.  So in the end, the paired shirts did indeed become the last vestige of this dream -- a last manifestation of the evocative power of dreams.

[aintfoolin]

  Great thread .


          I feel that for Jack having a ranch  together means that now a goal is achieved.   It would all makes sense to him. All his sacrifice, and Ennis's too would be justified. He would know that the love he felt was returned and validated . I feel it would mean a declaration from Ennis that he shared  their love, but a process would have to take place within him of an acceptance of his homosexuality. I don't feel that Jack could live peacefully with Ennis still  denying  mentally who he really was and who he really  loved, Jack, another man. Really coming to terms with himself for Jack's sake and his own. That won't be easy, but I feel he could've eventually gotten to that point. A protective bond would form together.communication would no doubt improve.

Having a ranch together also brings together a love of the land.  Coming from similar backgrouds (ranches)  They both would experience a taste of home, but it was be their own home, their own ranch  where love like niether had never known would preside. , Then combining both their best assets, Jack's business sense in sales and Ennis's love and knowledge of animals makes for a success. I love the whole idea of this.  Had they gotten past the personal conflicts in their lives , this idea, imo would have worked for them. MO.

[tpe]

We can ask ourselves a more fundamental wuestion here: why do people -- especially lovers -- wnat to live together?  I know that there are financial advantages and so forth, but I don't think that is the real reason, no?

I think thinking about this question put's Jack's dream in a more sympathetic light.  What would a homestead mean for lovers?  It is primarily a place to grow with their love.  I think it was pretty much the same with Jack.  The ranch was incidental to that dream.

[lamusica]

We can ask ourselves a more fundamental wuestion here: why do people -- especially lovers -- wnat to live together?  I know that there are financial advantages and so forth, but I don't think that is the real reason, no?

I think thinking about this question put's Jack's dream in a more sympathetic light.  What would a homestead mean for lovers?  It is primarily a place to grow with their love.  I think it was pretty much the same with Jack.  The ranch was incidental to that dream.

I think Jack, like most of us, wanted to have it all -- Ennis and a ranching type of life.  That would be heaven to him.  He would feel truly at home in a situation like that -- the man he loves with him all the time and the rural life he grew up with and loved.
    I doubt if he ever thought of Ennis and him living in a city.  They went together like a hand in a glove, his wanting Ennis and wanting the ranching life and all it stood for
.

[myprivatejack]

It's clear that Ennis and Jack's wasn't the case of some couples whose daily living together becomes an almost unbearable routine-sometimes for economic or familiar problems,sometimes and almost always for the unavoidable "wearing down" of the daily sharing of hours-.I know for my own experience that when there´s never enough time,never enough...to live together or even to become tired of this person ,this time can become also a fierce enemy,that passes with a slowness that always run against you.Much more if this person's time belongs to another one and he or she gives you the little pieces that remain,it's hard to bear.
That's why Jack in his specific case wanted to share his life with Ennis,although I've always thought that their life together finished by being as the first examples I've put in the beginning of this post,not for routine necessarily,but for fears and denials-this is another thread,however...-.And sharing it in a ranch of course meant living in his most loved landscape by his most loved person's side;a good combnation to make happiness more complete.And more still if we bear in mind that,as I said in my former post,that could be as a continuation of BBM,where they could live a little by their own and against all the outer world.Like the Paradise they found there and from which they were ejected by a representant of this outer world... ^^).

[aintfoolin]

We can ask ourselves a more fundamental wuestion here: why do people -- especially lovers -- wnat to live together?  I know that there are financial advantages and so forth, but I don't think that is the real reason, no?

I think thinking about this question put's Jack's dream in a more sympathetic light.  What would a homestead mean for lovers?  It is primarily a place to grow with their love.  I think it was pretty much the same with Jack.  The ranch was incidental to that dream.

 I agree . For Jack,  the stability would be there. The reason to search no more. He'd have Ennis, the love of his life there everyday to reaffirm the love on a constant basis. Jack's knows they'd learn,grow and become estalished as two people bonded as one. Love and life equally shared. I can see Jack pinching himself , making sure his dream was finally a reality, Ennis was never "going away" again.

For Ennis, it would be home, this home/work environment would mean essential privacy and protection for him as well as a "settled atmosphere" which I feel both were denied as young men.  It would also mean no pressure to "find something better" for the sake of wives and children as Alma wanted. They would  become self-sufficient  in their own right. No doubt imo they would prosper doing something they knew and are both good at. After all they ARE ranch cowboys at heart.  Not saying it will all be sweetness and light, but I feel they would've evolved  into two happy cowboys eventually, if they stuck it out together. Above all their denied love would be nurtured and validated...This is seen by me in an ideal sense ,not reality.

 Jack said it " could be a sweet life". It would've, barring all the other personal problems they had to deal with. Constant fear of being found out and f-cked with is a real possibility. Ennis knew that, but his love  for Jack was not lessened by it though. I think he wanted it but feared it. Sadly, fear won out in his case, but Jack so deserved a shot at it.

 Wonderful post MPJ. I agree with all you said, but I feel that Jack had waited for SO long, only getting a taste every now and then, that if Ennis would've conceded to him, every moment would have been cherished and appreciated. No relationship is sunny all the time, but had they "settled in" together, and  been left in peace, boredom may have set in but those moments would be outwayed by the blissful ones. Ranching is a lot of hard work, and they were not 19 years old anymore in body or in mind. Ennis' meticulous nature of doing things , I doubt there would be little time for bordom. Jack , with his laid back manner would probably be driven crazy ( I mean that in a loving way) but when they  got done it woud be a very impressive looking spread, reflecting both their assets.  Ennis's  attention to detail coupled with Jack efficiency with numbers and sales... = a sussessful operation. well who would'nt want this? Idealistic, but possible?

Taking into account, yes there is a certain "let-down" after you've sought something so important and so long and then  finally achieve it especially when an estalished day to day routine is present, and time does put wear and tear on a relationship, but in btween there is growth  but they would have had each other for comfort, there and then. Not Jack miserable in Texas and Ennis miserable in Riverton WY. They only fit...together. MO

[tpe]

Thanks for the interesting comments.  I do agree that perhaps the idea of a rance was was so incidental as I initially implied -- that to image them in a city would not be part of who they were.  And as aintfoolin and MPJ said, the ranch was something close to the heart, something tht reflected the landscape that they loved, both in the interior and external sense.

[myprivatejack]

Thanks for the interesting comments.  I do agree that perhaps the idea of a rance was was so incidental as I initially implied -- that to image them in a city would not be part of who they were.  And as aintfoolin and MPJ said, the ranch was something close to the heart, something tht reflected the landscape that they loved, both in the interior and external sense.

Yes,of course,the idea was living together,no matter where.Living in a city is not the first image we can have of them,but,on the other hand,would give them the opportunity of anonymityand a minor narrow-mindedness.It would be like a wonderful gift in an ugly parcel,maybe...Living in a ranch,on the contrary,would be living their love in the place they knew and doing the things they knew.The perfect gift in the perfect parcel.

[tpe]

I think the ranch they had in mind was characterized by some degree of isolation, no?  Perhaps it was an approximation of BBM back in 63, where they felt alone in an idyllic Eden. 

[myprivatejack]

I completely agree,Thomas;it would be as a continuation,several years after,of the only time of their lives in which they felt free,they felt themselves.

[tpe]

It is interesting to note that they never went back to BBM -- at least this is what we are made to believe in the SS.  So I guess the ranch becomes a surrogate for the ideal -- the Eden not entirely lost so long as they had it within them.

[myprivatejack]

It is interesting to note that they never went back to BBM -- at least this is what we are made to believe in the SS.  So I guess the ranch becomes a surrogate for the ideal -- the Eden not entirely lost so long as they had it within them.

Yes,it seems so.For this reason,the idea of a ranch became a continuation of their ideal time together.No matter where it could be,everywhere would be their BBM.