Topic: What does having a ranch together mean to Jack? or Ennis?

[Matt Nasty]

What it meant for Ennis was a life, contantly looking over his shoulder. Fear of ending up like Earl and Rich, and that meant loosing Jack in a violent way, or Jack loosing him to the tire irons. Does'nt mean he did'nt want it though.

For Jack it was stability, togetherness and no more lonley nights, or days. Also a solid confirmation and commitment of love from Ennis. It would show Jack that all his efforts/sacrifices were worth it and Ennis's too. He was right, they were safer together than apart.

yer being together may have saved jacks life but i suppose by the same token it could have gotten them both killed.

[tpe]

What it meant for Ennis was a life, contantly looking over his shoulder. Fear of ending up like Earl and Rich, and that meant loosing Jack in a violent way, or Jack loosing him to the tire irons. Does'nt mean he did'nt want it though.

For Jack it was stability, togetherness and no more lonley nights, or days. Also a solid confirmation and commitment of love from Ennis. It would show Jack that all his efforts/sacrifices were worth it and Ennis's too. He was right, they were safer together than apart.

This is very well said, IMO.  It brings out the unbridgeable dichotomy between the two views.

[athena0204]

Having a ranch together means his dreams coming true for Jack. All he really wants, all he really needs is to be with his one true love, Ennis. It means exactly the same thing for Ennis, all he really wants is to be with his one true love, Jack. However, there is one key difference between them. Jack won't let his fear bind him and stop him from being who is and living his dreams, while Ennis, no matter how much he wishes he could be free to be who he is, and live the life he deserves, is too afraid to make it happen. Ennis's fear keeps not only himself a prisoner in his life, but it makes Jack a prisoner too, because as long as Ennis is afraid, Jack can't live that sweet life with him. So both of them are forced to live lives of loneliness. In the end, Ennis realizes that he should have listened to his heart all those years ago, listened to Jack, but it's too late.

[myprivatejack]

Having a ranch together means his dreams coming true for Jack. All he really wants, all he really needs is to be with his one true love, Ennis. It means exactly the same thing for Ennis, all he really wants is to be with his one true love, Jack. However, there is one key difference between them. Jack won't let his fear bind him and stop him from being who is and living his dreams, while Ennis, no matter how much he wishes he could be free to be who he is, and live the life he deserves, is too afraid to make it happen. Ennis's fear keeps not only himself a prisoner in his life, but it makes Jack a prisoner too, because as long as Ennis is afraid, Jack can't live that sweet life with him. So both of them are forced to live lives of loneliness. In the end, Ennis realizes that he should have listened to his heart all those years ago, listened to Jack, but it's too late.

  Athena¡ All what you say is really true; specially when you declare that Ennis fears make also Jack a prisoner,because he denies his lover all chance of making his wishes come true.Ennis has the main obstacle for his happiness and the one of Jack in himself,no matter how many difficulties they have in their social environment...For this,and as someone else said no long time ago and words that I quote,Jack sees in having a ranch with Ennis the accomplishment of all his dreams,his illusions,his reason for living,and a way to be himself,master of his own home where he's valued-what he has never felt due to his family's circumstances...-.But for Ennis,even if it's also what he can desire the most,it would be a constant fear,a constant struggle with himself between the wish and the duty,the dream and the reality;and maybe these problems would reflect,sooner or later,in his daily living with Jack.JMO.

[tpe]

I do agree that the dream of a life together certainly held more tangible meaning for Jack than for Ennis.  But perhaps the problem was this: that it did hold great meaning to Ennis also, but in a very bad way.  For Ennis it called forth the spectre of Earl...

[Matt Nasty]

I do agree that the dream of a life together certainly held more tangible meaning for Jack than for Ennis.  But perhaps the problem was this: that it did hold great meaning to Ennis also, but in a very bad way.  For Ennis it called forth the spectre of Earl...

hmmm this is probably the statement i have most agreed with in this thread recently, but i beleive in accordence to ennis yes he found the idea frightning due to his memory of earl, but also i feel he longed for a ranch almost as much as jack he just had the fear holding him back and ennis just couldnt bare the thought of him or jack being killed and seperated, IMO ennis beleived it was better for him to be with jack less often then being with jack and getting jack killed because of it. ironic how in the end the decision to live with jack could have saved him of course it could have cut their time together even shorter  .

[tpe]

hmmm this is probably the statement i have most agreed with in this thread recently, but i beleive in accordence to ennis yes he found the idea frightning due to his memory of earl, but also i feel he longed for a ranch almost as much as jack he just had the fear holding him back and ennis just couldnt bare the thought of him or jack being killed and seperated, IMO ennis beleived it was better for him to be with jack less often then being with jack and getting jack killed because of it. ironic how in the end the decision to live with jack could have saved him of course it could have cut their time together even shorter  .

Yes, I do think Ennis wanted to have a life with Jack deepdown, but was much more afraid that any actions on their part would lead to a reaction from society at large.  I think we should bear in mind that Ennis didn't really abhor the thought of a ranch shared with Jack -- he abhored the thought of exposure and the subsequent violent reaction.

[Matt Nasty]

Yes, I do think Ennis wanted to have a life with Jack deepdown, but was much more afraid that any actions on their part would lead to a reaction from society at large.  I think we should bear in mind that Ennis didn't really abhor the thought of a ranch shared with Jack -- he abhored the thought of exposure and the subsequent violent reaction.

yes, very true

[myprivatejack]

Yes, I do think Ennis wanted to have a life with Jack deepdown, but was much more afraid that any actions on their part would lead to a reaction from society at large.  I think we should bear in mind that Ennis didn't really abhor the thought of a ranch shared with Jack -- he abhored the thought of exposure and the subsequent violent reaction.

I completely agree.The problem was showing himself "naked" in his feelings before society and its rules.For this reason,his life was not only a contradiction between what he wanted and what he pretended he wanted,but also,a constant search for the right excuse in the right moment to avoid a real commitment and lose,in this way,his protective cloak of stoicism we talk about in another thread.

[aintfoolin]

 Having the ranch together means the facing of fears , shame and and overriding them with love, pride, and courage.

[myprivatejack]

Having the ranch together means the facing of fears , shame and and overriding them with love, pride, and courage.

Yes,but do you think this is what really would happen,or is what we´d wish it to happen?

[aintfoolin]

This is what did not happen though I wished it would've or could've happened.

[tpe]

This is what did not happen though I wished it would've or could've happened.

Both Ennis and Jack were right in that they interpreted living together in a ranch as a tacit acknowledgement of their love to the wider world, IMO.

[myprivatejack]

Both Ennis and Jack were right in that they interpreted living together in a ranch as a tacit acknowledgement of their love to the wider world, IMO.

Of course, and for this same reason Ennis wasn't so willing to accept it; because he knew it'd be a way to show themselves to the society as they really were,not the way he spent all his life pretending to be and to show to others.

[athena0204]

hmmm this is probably the statement i have most agreed with in this thread recently, but i beleive in accordence to ennis yes he found the idea frightning due to his memory of earl, but also i feel he longed for a ranch almost as much as jack he just had the fear holding him back and ennis just couldnt bare the thought of him or jack being killed and seperated, IMO ennis beleived it was better for him to be with jack less often then being with jack and getting jack killed because of it. ironic how in the end the decision to live with jack could have saved him of course it could have cut their time together even shorter  .

Yes, I agree with you. Ennis wanted to belong to his dreams and be with Jack, but his fear kept him prisoner. That horrific memory from his childhood scarred him. He was afraid that if they lived together, their love would become public knowledge. Ennis wished he could just be free to be who he was and live his life the way he wanted to...Jack on the other hand, didn't just wish for this, he was willing to make it happen, because he wouldn't let his fear control him, the way Ennis did. It's sad, because in the end, Ennis realizes that he shouldn't have let his fear control him, because it kept him apart from his one true love, the only person in the world who made him feel free, happy, and loved.

[tpe]

Of course, and for this same reason Ennis wasn't so willing to accept it; because he knew it'd be a way to show themselves to the society as they really were,not the way he spent all his life pretending to be and to show to others.

It is interesting that Jack wanted it so badly, knowing full well that it would be an acknowledgement of their relationship to the wider world.  The ranch meant the same thing to both of them, but their attitudes were completely opposite, no?

[athena0204]

It is interesting that Jack wanted it so badly, knowing full well that it would be an acknowledgement of their relationship to the wider world.  The ranch meant the same thing to both of them, but their attitudes were completely opposite, no?

Jack knew that society wouldn't accept them, but he didn't care. He wasn't going to let society and fear of it dictate his life and keep him a prisoner. He didn't want to pretend to be something he's not to please others, while on the inside he was miserable. He felt he deserved to have true love and happiness in his life. Ennis saw it in much the same way, he didn't want to be a prisoner, he felt like he deserved freedom, happiness, and true love. He was miserable pretending to be something he wasn't, but in Ennis' mind, he couldn't do anything about it because he was imprisoned by society. That's the difference between them. Jack will fight for what he knows is right, while Ennis feels powerless. And because Ennis feels powerless to change things, Jack can't be with Ennis, so he himself becomes a prisoner of the society that chained Ennis, or the society that Ennis allowed to keep him in chains.

[myprivatejack]

Jack knew that society wouldn't accept them, but he didn't care. He wasn't going to let society and fear of it dictate his life and keep him a prisoner. He didn't want to pretend to be something he's not to please others, while on the inside he was miserable. He felt he deserved to have true love and happiness in his life. Ennis saw it in much the same way, he didn't want to be a prisoner, he felt like he deserved freedom, happiness, and true love. He was miserable pretending to be something he wasn't, but in Ennis' mind, he couldn't do anything about it because he was imprisoned by society. That's the difference between them. Jack will fight for what he knows is right, while Ennis feels powerless. And because Ennis feels powerless to change things, Jack can't be with Ennis, so he himself becomes a prisoner of the society that chained Ennis, or the society that Ennis allowed to keep him in chains.

Good points,Athena¡.Yes,Jack was all his life fighting for have his dreams come true,not letting that society chained him too much.Jack really was a dreamer,but also a fighter; a fighter to get the situation changed and also because this situation didn't change him at the end.Ennis was fighting also,but not for change the situation,but to live inside it the best he could.

[tpe]

Jack was certainly more reckless in his attitude to the relationship.  His advantage (or disadvantage) is that he thought less of the ramifications of a life together -- he was more in tune with his feelings and allowed them to dictate the direction of his life.  Not that he was unaware of the possible consequences -- I think he was very much aware of them.  But perhaps a life subject to the fear of such consequences matter less to him -- matter less than the prospect of denying a life of feeling.

[myprivatejack]

Jack was certainly more reckless in his attitude to the relationship.  His advantage (or disadvantage) is that he thought less of the ramifications of a life together -- he was more in tune with his feelings and allowed them to dictate the direction of his life.  Not that he was unaware of the possible consequences -- I think he was very much aware of them.  But perhaps a life subject to the fear of such consequences matter less to him -- matter less than the prospect of denying a life of feeling.

I was aware of the consequences,but,yes,he preferred to risk himself than living bitterly,denying himself as Ennis did.For this I said in my former post that he fought to change the situation,and not that the situation ended by changing him.

[tpe]

The ranch had therefore come to symbolize an unattainable.  The dream of the ranch changed the dynamic of the relationship:  it sought to bring permanency to the dream of BBM -- down into the plains.    It is understandable that Ennis partly saw this change in dynamic as a threat, whereas Jack saw it as an opportunity.  From then on, it was a push and pull that resulted in no movement.  It is ironic that at the moment when Jack let go in death, Ennis was at the threshold of understanding that opportunity.

[myprivatejack]

The ranch had therefore come to symbolize an unattainable.  The dream of the ranch changed the dynamic of the relationship:  it sought to bring permanency to the dream of BBM -- down into the plains.    It is understandable that Ennis partly saw this change in dynamic as a threat, whereas Jack saw it as an opportunity.  From then on, it was a push and pull that resulted in no movement.  It is ironic that at the moment when Jack let go in death, Ennis was at the threshold of understanding that opportunity.

Yes,it's one of the many ironies that BBM had,as an story of a frustration and denial that it's...
And yes,the ranch would be in Jack's eyes as a continuation of their lost paradise up in the mountain,their own and private Brokeback.In Ennis eyes,like the paradise´s expulsion,a continuation of the "hell" they found in real life when they came back from Brokeback,with all their duties,dangers and problems in pure state...

[tpe]

Yes,it's one of the many ironies that BBM had,as an story of a frustration and denial that it's...
And yes,the ranch would be in Jack's eyes as a continuation of their lost paradise up in the mountain,their own and private Brokeback.In Ennis eyes,like the paradise´s expulsion,a continuation of the "hell" they found in real life when they came back from Brokeback,with all their duties,dangers and problems in pure state...

I like the analogy you draw about Paraside lost.  I believe welshwitch laso alluded to this some time ago.  It is certainly an appropriate analogy.  And I would say that the dream of the ranch is a dream to return to paradise on earth, but the Angel of Fear with the burning sword stops them at the gate.

[Matt Nasty]

I like the analogy you draw about Paraside lost.  I believe welshwitch laso alluded to this some time ago.  It is certainly an appropriate analogy.  And I would say that the dream of the ranch is a dream to return to paradise on earth, but the Angel of Fear with the burning sword stops them at the gate.

i am sure that in death once ennis died jack and ennis would be happy together, forever and they could have that ranch or whatever maybe brokeback and then they could live fearlessly and lovingly with each other.

[tpe]

i am sure that in death once ennis died jack and ennis would be happy together, forever and they could have that ranch or whatever maybe brokeback and then they could live fearlessly and lovingly with each other.

We certainly want to believe that this is so.  Could Ennis have believed?  I have no doubt that he would have wanted it so...

[Matt Nasty]

We certainly want to believe that this is so.  Could Ennis have believed?  I have no doubt that he would have wanted it so...

when i seen ennis eyes in the eye swear seen i could jsut tell he beleived he would see jack again, also the very fact he said i swear on some level proves in his beleif that jack is still with him if he beleived death was the end would he have bothered??

[myprivatejack]

I like the analogy you draw about Paraside lost.  I believe welshwitch laso alluded to this some time ago.  It is certainly an appropriate analogy.  And I would say that the dream of the ranch is a dream to return to paradise on earth, but the Angel of Fear with the burning sword stops them at the gate.

I think you've explained the analogy much better than me...Yes,the Angel of Fear stopped them at the gate of their paradise on earth.Worse still if this Angel is in a great extent,Ennis himself.And sometimes,Jack,or better said,the ensemble of both.

[myprivatejack]

when i seen ennis eyes in the eye swear seen i could jsut tell he beleived he would see jack again, also the very fact he said i swear on some level proves in his beleif that jack is still with him if he beleived death was the end would he have bothered??

I think Ennis was bothered not to see Jack anymore here on Earth.But I don't know if we know it for sure or it's what we'd wish to happen; maybe there's another place in another plane where the old lovers could find themselves again to be happy forever.

[Matt Nasty]

I think Ennis was bothered not to see Jack anymore here on Earth.But I don't know if we know it for sure or it's what we'd wish to happen; maybe there's another place in another plane where the old lovers could find themselves again to be happy forever.

that is my personal beleif

[tpe]

I think you've explained the analogy much better than me...Yes,the Angel of Fear stopped them at the gate of their paradise on earth.Worse still if this Angel is in a great extent,Ennis himself.And sometimes,Jack,or better said,the ensemble of both.

Well, as it is said: Minuisti eum paulo minus ab angelis...