Topic: When stars collide.....

[tpe]

What strikes me about AP description of Jack, was how almost homely she makes him.  sorta fair, slightly bucked tooth, and kind of makes fun of him, because of it.  Jack was talkative, and lively, he spoke of sheep being struck by lightening,  the feather in his hat, and how he got it, showed with pride his rodeo buckle,  this to Ennis must have been non threatening.  You could have imagine him being Ennis's "best buds ",   Ennis being the serious of the duo, and Jack almost the comic relief.   And you wonder how these two ordinary looking guys fall in love, and hold on to a relationship that lasted twenty years.  I guess that's the beauty of AP story,  it was  an extraordinary love.

***

Precisely, they were foils to each other in the short story, and there is an element of the comic in Proulx's Jack. 

I think Gyllenhaal's Jack can also be taken for a foil to Ledger's Ennis, although Gyllenhaal's Jack is in my opinion a more tragic realization -- pathos mixing with a very "Terentian" comic element.  That is, the comic element in Gyllenhaal's Jack mirror's the style of the Roman dramatist Terence: there is a lightness to it, free from vulgarity or exaggeration.  For me, it worked so well with the type of brooding tension in Ledger's Ennis, in a way that probably even surprised Proulx.

Which leads me back to the original topic:  the "collision" works so well IMO because the cinematic realizations to Proulx's characters are without a strong element of "caricature" that we see now and then in Proulx's rendition -- especially in the case of Jack.     I really think Ledger's and Gyllenhaal's chemistry helped a great deal in pulling off the realtionship as true romantic love -- even to those people who would never consider such a thing in a same-sex situation.  The fact that we can empathize and sympathize with that love is at the heart of my "Terentian" claim: we connect with their "collision" as part of our shared humanity.

[Tony]

     Tpe, that's sure true--although Jack provided some comic relief, and was a counter-foil, there was no exaggeration or vulgarity, despite
some trace of that in the SS, never expanded there, and abandoned, in the film.
     But, trying to sum up, on the general topic (as I think this thread has a massive readership of maybe 3 or 4 and may fade soon), of Jack,
will try for the following:
     The key concepts I keep coming back to are ratification and de-sensitization and would like to apply them here.

    It seems to me, Ennis needed ratification as a human being, as a person, as himself, whereas Jack had an enormous need for ratification from
another male (and sex doesn't have to be the method).  It's a primitive, tribal need, for male ratification that we find in Jack.  Ask Ennis if
he gives a damn whether guys in general don't like him and he'd say-so what?  But Jack is almost like that Saturday Night Live skit Jake did,
"I'm gonna make you love me...!!!" Defiance.  He won't give up.
   As to whether he had same-sex inclinations before Ennis, I think that's hogwash.  More likely, he was more sensual than the average male,
and less judgmental, and very much prone to going over the line.  But bi-sexual? Nah.
   I think all that changed, with the friendship love that began developing, from the very start, and the time came when, yeah, it would have
been there--what about sex?  Up there alone.  Getting along better than with anyone else in their lives.  My gut instinct remains the same
as always---Jack was interested, by then, but he used sex to FORCE Ennis to acknowledge they weren't like any two others they had met.
  With sex came de-sensitization, which is a big word that just means, once you done rode that bicycle the first time, it all gets easier each
succeeding time.  Ennis, I believe, could only relate this to Jack, and no other male (sorry, fan-fics), but Jack?  His sensual nature let loose.
It really was "a one-shot thing" for Ennis, in that he came down from the mountain de-sensitized only to Jack.  Jack came down from the
mountain---bi-sexual.
   The collision caused reorganized sexuality, strengthening of some personality traits (Ennis finding an ability to be sometimes happy, Jack
finding confidence in himself) but massive debris, chaos, as, when the season was ended early, not enough had been re-assembled for them
to talk, reasonably, about a future.
   Not much more to say-just wrapping up an outline.  This topic turned out more difficult than had expected.

[manhattangirl]

When I read this, Tony, it makes me think that they went up on the mountain one entity(straight), their cells were rearrange put in chaos, and because of the early ending of summer, they left the mountain disjointed, out of alignment, and not totally put back together,(the mountain acting as a  transporter room on a starship gone haywire).  Am I again (not surprising) misunderstanding? 

On your premise, yes, it's "logical", Ennis's desensitization, and Jack's new found bisexuality to make a "point", was how they returned.   What I think is that they were who they were before they met, they inturn like locksmith found and turned the key that was them.  So the emotional connection was made, and as natural as breathing the sexual happened, through that was enlightenment.   

Jack was key that unlocked Ennis's sexual and emotional self, Ennis  was a key to Jack's validation as a man, and proof that he was lovable, and loved for himself.   You see that's OK, because when we meet some one and have feelings for them, we find out that person unlocks something in us we never knew before, or we are amazed at the way that person knows who we really are knowing the best and the worst, still loves us, or am being too much of a romantic?

Just a thought.

[Tony]

   Hi, Manhattangirl- you're saying they were who they were before they met, but found the key to unlock and validate each other, if I've got
that right.  The validation being the change.
  I do respect that take on things, but have to disagree, somewhat.  Again, on sexuality, most males are vulnerable to experimentation between
the years of, say, 14-24, and after that, it pretty much shuts down.  And straight guys will shut it down, because, for them, it doesn't work.
Heterosexuality will always trump any adolescent goofing off & there's no reason to continue.  This was not true for Jack and Ennis, who were
in their late teens.  It did work.  For Ennis, it was a fulfillment of a desperately needed friendship love that kept getting more and more into the
"endless love" zone.  He became- Jacksexual. For Jack, it left him with memories of how sex was a reassurance, one he always needed.
    You seem to think it worked because it was already there.  I see it working, because the collision of emotions and needs rearranged them, into
a different mode, coming down from the mountain.
  Again, if it was already there, we would have seen a more liberated Ennis, looking about him for other Jacks.  Didn't happen. It was always only
Jack.  And we would have seen a sensual Jack, now knowing he wanted men, generically, often, and instead we fing him eager to take on Lureen,
a little slow with Randall, and only some occasional jaunts to Mexico.  He wanted-ENNIS.
  And after the collision, there was more.  Despite the hurt of the separation, IMO, the sense they could be loved, that they found on the
mountain, brought hopes their marriages could work.  They had more self-confidence SOMETHING could work.  After 4 years, that was fading
away.  The only real love was what they had found before.

[manhattangirl]

   Hi, Manhattangirl- you're saying they were who they were before they met, but found the key to unlock and validate each other, if I've got
that right.  The validation being the change.
  I do respect that take on things, but have to disagree, somewhat.  Again, on sexuality, most males are vulnerable to experimentation between
the years of, say, 14-24, and after that, it pretty much shuts down.  And straight guys will shut it down, because, for them, it doesn't work.
Heterosexuality will always trump any adolescent goofing off & there's no reason to continue.  This was not true for Jack and Ennis, who were
in their late teens.  It did work.  For Ennis, it was a fulfillment of a desperately needed friendship love that kept getting more and more into the
"endless love" zone.  He became- Jacksexual. For Jack, it left him with memories of how sex was a reassurance, one he always needed.
    You seem to think it worked because it was already there.  I see it working, because the collision of emotions and needs rearranged them, into
a different mode, coming down from the mountain.
  Again, if it was already there, we would have seen a more liberated Ennis, looking about him for other Jacks.   Didn't happen. It was always only
Jack.  And we would have seen a sensual Jack, now knowing he wanted men, generically, often, and instead we fing him eager to take on Lureen,
a little slow with Randall, and only some occasional jaunts to Mexico.  He wanted-ENNIS.
  And after the collision, there was more.  Despite the hurt of the separation, IMO, the sense they could be loved, that they found on the
mountain, brought hopes their marriages could work.  They had more self-confidence SOMETHING could work.  After 4 years, that was fading
away.  The only real love was what they had found before.

I won't even pretend to be an expert on male sexuality, I'm just gleaning the information that is presented to me in this story, to come up with my own humble opinions.

As far as Ennis was concern, a "liberated" Ennis, not only didn't have other Jacks, and there wasn't even "Jill". He had Alma, but his virginity for me is still telling, come on he didn't try to go all the way?, then if not her, someone girl of "easy virtue"?  I still will go back to what he witness at nine, this information must be significant because AP wanted us to know, or it wouldn't have put out there for our consideration, this was part Ennis psychological make up, this one incident shut him down emotionally and sexually and it was Jack and not Alma who had the key to opened Ennis true self, but also tortured him too,  because in the ss, he even admits, if his father stuck his head in that motel room, his father would kill him on the spot.   How in heck one can deal with the idea, that to be your true self, can bring death, that death could come from your own parent?  This was Ennis conflicted self.  

Tony you make it a point  to show Jack was eager to hook up with Lureen, I doubt that, look after the rodeo clown incident, Jack was cautious, lonely, and needy when Lureen approached him, how could he resist he was actually connecting with someone, any one.   Jack was on the down side, struggling, alone.  Who could blame him.  Randall,  he was the threat, the something that could set this whole thing off balance.   Jack knew this, he felt uneasy, and it disturbed him.   Randall reached out to him, another man wanted him, no fear of tire irons. And in loneliness for Ennis, Jack succumbed to it.  

Tony, I see your point, and what the heck do I know, I just have this gut feeling that I can't shake.  Because, some of us know even when we are children and can't explain it, we feel that attraction for someone of our own sex.  I don't know if I'm making any sense, but for me, I was very young girl, battling that war inside.  I like to think of myself as a Jack girl, but damn Ennis haunts the hell out of me.

I'll leave it at that.

[tpe]

     Tpe, that's sure true--although Jack provided some comic relief, and was a counter-foil, there was no exaggeration or vulgarity, despite
some trace of that in the SS, never expanded there, and abandoned, in the film.
     But, trying to sum up, on the general topic (as I think this thread has a massive readership of maybe 3 or 4 and may fade soon), of Jack,
will try for the following:
     The key concepts I keep coming back to are ratification and de-sensitization and would like to apply them here.

    It seems to me, Ennis needed ratification as a human being, as a person, as himself, whereas Jack had an enormous need for ratification from
another male (and sex doesn't have to be the method).  It's a primitive, tribal need, for male ratification that we find in Jack.  Ask Ennis if
he gives a damn whether guys in general don't like him and he'd say-so what?  But Jack is almost like that Saturday Night Live skit Jake did,
"I'm gonna make you love me...!!!" Defiance.  He won't give up.
   As to whether he had same-sex inclinations before Ennis, I think that's hogwash.  More likely, he was more sensual than the average male,
and less judgmental, and very much prone to going over the line.  But bi-sexual? Nah.
   I think all that changed, with the friendship love that began developing, from the very start, and the time came when, yeah, it would have
been there--what about sex?  Up there alone.  Getting along better than with anyone else in their lives.  My gut instinct remains the same
as always---Jack was interested, by then, but he used sex to FORCE Ennis to acknowledge they weren't like any two others they had met.
  With sex came de-sensitization, which is a big word that just means, once you done rode that bicycle the first time, it all gets easier each
succeeding time.  Ennis, I believe, could only relate this to Jack, and no other male (sorry, fan-fics), but Jack?  His sensual nature let loose.
It really was "a one-shot thing" for Ennis, in that he came down from the mountain de-sensitized only to Jack.  Jack came down from the
mountain---bi-sexual.
   The collision caused reorganized sexuality, strengthening of some personality traits (Ennis finding an ability to be sometimes happy, Jack
finding confidence in himself) but massive debris, chaos, as, when the season was ended early, not enough had been re-assembled for them
to talk, reasonably, about a future.
   Not much more to say-just wrapping up an outline.  This topic turned out more difficult than had expected.

Interesting post here, Tony.  Although I don't agree with everything you say here, I do think I see your point about desensitization.  It would be probably approximated by the term "breaking in".  Somehow, I sense a negative connotation with the use of the term, "desensitizing", although it need not be that way.    But yes, I think the act of desensitizing made things easier after the act, even if it did sow the seeds of future misunderstanding.

[Tony]

  Hi, tpe---yes, you're right, and very sensitive to the nuances in words---de-sensitization often does have a negative connotation, as it is
usually heard with reference to our being de-sensitized to violence in the media, and therefore they have to keep getting worse to create any
reaction.  Here, none was meant.
  Would really  rather avoid these $20 words, and stick to normal English, however the word is very relevant to the collision on the mountain.
It's been pretty much accepted, in other threads, that guys experiment.  Was pointing out that, once you have had a sexual act with the same
gender (actually, even with the opposite gender), it gets progressively easier.
  Have tried to say that Ennis became used to sex with Jack (Jacksexual), and no further, and Jack got used to sex with males in general,
as a possibility.
  Am not doing well on this thread, as my thinking is fuzzy on some issues, but still think the concept of a collision is relevant, and that, in
any collision, there's merging and there's debris.  And I still wonder if both guys didn't have an internal time-clock for settling up with each
other, but this was shut down by Aguirre's early end to the summer.  I just don't believe they weren't aware of some kind of deadline, for
sorting things out, about emotional commitment, and hadn't thought ahead somewhat.  Had they been left alone, on schedule, each would
have had to come to terms with each other, the last few days and nights.  They never got that chance, and so, debris, everywhere.

[tpe]

Well, if you would allow me to say this, I do believe that Jack probably let things happen even before he had met Ennis -- no way to prove this, but that's the feeling I get.  If we accept this, then for Jack, it was really not an act of desensitizing. 

We can certainly think of the case of Ennis as a case of desensitizing himself to Jack.  I don't interpret this to mean that he was not attracted to males per se.  I tend to believe that Ennis was intrinsically homosexual, and that it was Jack who was only able to make him come out and be what he truly was deep inside.  Again, there is no way of proving this, except to say that I interpret Proulx's comment about homophobia as applying directly to the clash between Ennis's socially-conditioned attitude towards homosexuality and his intrinsic nature.

[manhattangirl]

Tony,

Its a bit too clinical, eliminating attraction, kinship, and love.  You make them sound like their sexuality was a tool a means to an end and not an expression of the love they had for each other.  These men weren't verbal, but showed it everytime they were together.  The reunion kiss was all that had to said.   

 Just my opinion.

[Tony]

   Hi, tpe.  This go-round you were very specific in saying your gut instinct was that Jack was experienced, and that Ennis was repressed gay.
This is the majority opinion, well-respected by me, but, as you know, there is a persistent minority opinion, which also has substantial support,
and is grounded, also, in very sound reasoning.  I had meant to keep that split into 2 camps off this thread, and left for the other threads (where,
I notice, there is always enduring interest, because it is not really settled, nor likely ever will be).  But, I failed.  And that's sloppy posting on
my part, since I had told myself not to go there, in this thread.  For anything productive to come out of this thread, then, I need to stick to
ideas that are not assuming either camp is accurate, because I think that can be done.  Am sorry--I goofed up.
  Manhattangirl, the same apology to you, in general terms.  But specifically, your saying my post seemed too clinical and eliminated attraction,
kinship, and love---I plead Not Guilty.  I have tried to de-construct and consider them separately, then put them back together again, and
that in no way eliminates any of the component parts.  If you are looking over a photo of someone, and speak to their eyes, or their hair, and
so on, it is understood you are looking over someone step by step, not leaving a nose floating around and the rest of the face gone.
Looking at the smiling lips of the Mona Lisa, in no way says you're not also aware of, and will get to, the entirety of her beauty.  Nor is it clinical
to point out a specific part of the whole.
   Gosh, schmoozy as I have been, how could anyone think I would not get back to the love?  I am doing something wrong, to give such a wrong
impression.  I will do better.  Meanwhile, I needed what you both brought out for me to get back on track.  And I appreciate what was pointed out.
You both have high standards, and I will try, as I said, to do better.

[manhattangirl]

Tony-

No apologies needed.   The only impression I get is that you're smart, funny, honest and true to your belief and I like talking with you (so don't change a thing).

[tpe]

   Hi, tpe.  This go-round you were very specific in saying your gut instinct was that Jack was experienced, and that Ennis was repressed gay.
This is the majority opinion, well-respected by me, but, as you know, there is a persistent minority opinion, which also has substantial support,
and is grounded, also, in very sound reasoning.  I had meant to keep that split into 2 camps off this thread, and left for the other threads (where,
I notice, there is always enduring interest, because it is not really settled, nor likely ever will be).  But, I failed.  And that's sloppy posting on
my part, since I had told myself not to go there, in this thread.  For anything productive to come out of this thread, then, I need to stick to
ideas that are not assuming either camp is accurate, because I think that can be done.  Am sorry--I goofed up.
 

It is not at all bad to show the fault lines in the current discussion.  It gives us at least 2 different points of view to draw upon.  I am not sure that my take is the majority opinion -- I don't think there was ever a serious study on this -- but it would surprise me greatly if your take on things is truly a minority point of view.

[Tony]

  Had started this thread because of a very revealing interview with Annie Proulx, posted by Jackster, and it seems I got some of the quotes a
little off, in another thread, and have corrected them there (was Ennis gay?).  But the introduction here was right and would like to add a little
more from that interview.  Annie very definitely said, at the end, that she wanted us to approach their sexuality based on our own experiences,
so she was inviting us into the story.  And, earlier, she had said the raging love "came roaring out of nowhere..".  I have to hope she meant this
in terms of being unexpected, rather than that the love had no earlier roots in their needs.  At any rate, this go-round, would like to explore what
little we know of them before the collision.  No fan-fic stuff---but, rather, trying to review and fill in some blanks.

Ennis.
   We do know his father was harsh (the Earl and Rich trauma), that he was bullied by his brother, and then his father told him how to fix that
problem.  We know his mother loved him (she had sung lullabies to him).  And then, fairly young, lost his parents to a car crash and was raised
for probably 6-8 years before moving on.  Can we find anything in these bare facts?
  For one thing, there doesn't seem to be any hatred for his father, nor much love either. His father was an authority figure and we do see Ennis
always respecting authority.  Annie says Heath got Ennis right-100%, and even more, so the film portrayals show him shy & hang-dog with Aguirre,
respectful before the minister at the wedding, and quiet, hanging his head before the judge at the divorce.  He also had an instinctive way
of not challenging Jack's gruff father, and handling him well.  We would know a little more, then, about his not wanting to challenge "the rules".
That may not be central, but it is relevant.
   One area I haven't seen explored is the impact of losing his parents.  That had to be a terrible shock.  So he had seen the death of Earl,
gloated over by his father, and then, fairly soon after, the death of both parents. Clearly, he had developed, very early, the trait of repressing
emotions.  He, at least, had to grieve his mother, but does not speak of that.
  There also seems to be a sense in him that he wasn't much to anybody, so we do see him anticipating rejection, reacting calmly (if you don't
want no more of my kids, then I'd be glad to leave you alone), and giving up.  He doesn't BELIEVE he's really wanted and stubbornly walks
away when there's evidence of that.

Jack

    We know he must have had a lonely childhood, there being no brothers or sisters, and out in the middle of nowhere.  Where did he get that
lively, sensual, good-natured personality?  Maybe, having been pissed on by his father, and noticing the circumcision difference, he made a
deduction that was healing: he wasn't like his father, and could therefore be the opposite in personality.  Rebelling against the role-model
of the father, and not respecting authority as absolute.  But there is some possibility, he was much more isolated, in Lightning Flat, than
Ennis had been, and had to create....himself, and probably with the quiet approval and love of his mother, who knew well the cold nature of
her husband.

    Both had some high school, and that would have been where, as is often the case, they firmed up their personalities and yet developed
more social skills, however limited.
   That's all we've got, in the deep past. Approaching the collision, then, despite their youth, they were pretty much set in their ways.
And yet those ways were not hostile to the personality of the other.  Loneliness, hard times, poor-paying jobs, and, each in their own way,
a willingness to get along with others, were shared traits.  And that's what we have before the collision.  Not much, but wanted to flesh out
anything I possibly could.  If anybody sees anything different in these basics, would be glad to hear their take on the...before.

[lamusica]

The thing that keeps hitting me in the face whenever I think about the before is the loneliness both boys experienced in their early lives.  Ennis, after the death of his parents, had his brother and sister-in-law, but there's no mention of friends.  Ennis was not a talker, as he said himself.  He wasn't used to talking to anyone and expressing his feelings, etc.  I think his upbringing was pretty lonely, so, when Jack came along, in the face of Jack's affability, he found a friend.
     Jack, too, never talks about friends.  His nomadic rodeo life doesn't lend itself to long-standing, deep friendships.  He was raised on a lonely farm. His father obviously was not much of a companion; maybe his mother was more of one.  But, he, too, although he was a friendly type of fellow, was lonely.  When Ennis and he found themselves together alone on BBM, he found a friend ( and more).  I think the commonality of their loneliness played a big part in their gravitating towards one another -- made them ripe for friendship.

[welshwitch]

I have a sort of feeling that up till their meeting neither had had any sort of friendships and that even their family relationships ( with the exception of those with their mothers, but ennis lost his mother in his early teens) hadn;t been close. I think of Ennis's father and Jack's as hard and possibly domineering, a lot like LD. then Jack while rodeoing would have been in competition with the other riders and Ennis working with his brother and younger than him would presumably have been competing ( not necessarily consciously) with his older brother's greater strength and abilities, not to mention those of other ranch workers.

Once they were on the mountain they didn't have to be competitive - in fact it was pretty much essential that they co-operate - and so they didn't need to be guarded, which meant that whatever their real instincts were they could allow them to be realised. Jack was able to go on doing this after they left; Ennis was afraid to, and I think never saw the time he spent with Jack as anything but a sort of parallel universe, not one he could live in permanently.

[tpe]

I have a sort of feeling that up till their meeting neither had had any sort of friendships and that even their family relationships ( with the exception of those with their mothers, but ennis lost his mother in his early teens) hadn;t been close. I think of Ennis's father and Jack's as hard and possibly domineering, a lot like LD. then Jack while rodeoing would have been in competition with the other riders and Ennis working with his brother and younger than him would presumably have been competing ( not necessarily consciously) with his older brother's greater strength and abilities, not to mention those of other ranch workers.

Once they were on the mountain they didn't have to be competitive - in fact it was pretty much essential that they co-operate - and so they didn't need to be guarded, which meant that whatever their real instincts were they could allow them to be realised. Jack was able to go on doing this after they left; Ennis was afraid to, and I think never saw the time he spent with Jack as anything but a sort of parallel universe, not one he could live in permanently.

I like the way you say it here, WW.   Part of the magic of those heady days in BBM was that they didn't have to to put a check on their instincts, and only had to do what seemed natural to them.  I think the cooperation was a product of this seeming naturalness of it all.  They didn't feel that they had to be somebody else, or try to be something else for the other to reach out.  Perhpas, as you say, it was not bound to last outside of the isolated setting of BBM, but what the experience revealed about themselves and each other should have been enough to sustain a love for a lifetime, no?