Topic: Alma invites Jack for coffee?

[myprivatejack]

I think you are spot on.  My feeling is that Alma's desire to see or even confront Jack was totally irrational and not pre-meditated.  I also had a feeling that she had no idea what to say anyway.  But to understand Ennis at that point, she needed to know more about Jack, and the only wat to do this was to see him face to face.  Perhaps Ennis knew this also, and that was why he was intent to keep Alma and Jack separated.

I don't think that a woman in this situation can do anything but irrationally; we are happy by seeing Ennis and Jack's happiness,but as many times in life,happiness is built over someone else's anguish and sorrow.And it's obvious and doubtless that-even if some of us have seen Alma as an "enemy" of our boys sweet life-a woman who loves deeply his husband and discovers in such a brutal way that he's cheating her -with another man,moreover-,can't react in a pre-meditated way as all her world is breaking.
So,I have always thought that her first and main intention was trying to understand and after that,trying to know in what she had failed-something very usual in women in this situation...-; if her rival had been another woman,she had known how to fight with the another woman's "weapons",but a man,in a rural and inarticulate woman of the 60's,was too much as to be able to make a planning and fight for her love...As you Thomas,say,she needed to know more about Jack to have an answer to her questions; if sooner or later,she had confronted him,it's something that we can only suppose or imagine.
But,surely Ennis saw this possibility more clearly,although he didn't know for sure that they had been seen,and,to avoid it,he wanted to separate them.Letting aside the fact that there have been too many years without one another; too many words to say,too many "things" to do  ,too little time to be together...Knowing Ennis or not that Alma knew it,the most logical is that he didn't want to share Jack more than in the way he was obliged to share him...

[Karol]

She is shocked... not only because the husband has betrayed her, but because he's done it with a man, more shocking for that time and so...
During the night she evidently doesn't sleep and when Ennis comes back she thinks that he invites Jack for coffè because there's nothing to hidden, or better, according to Ennis, she has nothing to sospect.
Anyway she wants to have a direct contact with Jack. He's her "rival".
I was so sad when in the next scene she cries and sees them go away...Ennis who frantically goes to Jack...

[myprivatejack]

She is shocked... not only because the husband has betrayed her, but because he's done it with a man, more shocking for that time and so...
During the night she evidently doesn't sleep and when Ennis comes back she thinks that he invites Jack for coffè because there's nothing to hidden, or better, according to Ennis, she has nothing to sospect.
Anyway she wants to have a direct contact with Jack. He's her "rival".
I was so sad when in the next scene she cries and sees them go away...Ennis who frantically goes to Jack...

Yes,being cheated by your husband with another man is something that adds a plus of dramatism to the situation.A plus because it's something Alma can't manage with,not at the same level as if her rival was another woman.And yes,maybe she asks Ennis to invite Jack for coffee as a way to check his reaction; if there's nothing to hide,there's no reason to show oneself "sociable",to call it somehow.And,at the same time,she could see how is this man,how is in his reactions and his way of being; trying to understand always what had this man that she hadn't-letting aside some "things",of course... -.But I don't think that her behaviour is premeditated almost never,but guided by sorrow and dispair.

[tpe]

Very insightful.  And it is true that much happiness is built on other people's sorrow.  Is the amount of happiness in the world a fixed amount?  Can it only go so far with a person?  Sometimes, I think that this is the case...  To Alma, perhaps the calculus was a painful reality.  When someone takes, another has to give, whether he or she likes it or not.

I don't think that a woman in this situation can do anything but irrationally; we are happy by seeing Ennis and Jack's happiness,but as many times in life,happiness is built over someone else's anguish and sorrow.And it's obvious and doubtless that-even if some of us have seen Alma as an "enemy" of our boys sweet life-a woman who loves deeply his husband and discovers in such a brutal way that he's cheating her -with another man,moreover-,can't react in a pre-meditated way as all her world is breaking.
So,I have always thought that her first and main intention was trying to understand and after that,trying to know in what she had failed-something very usual in women in this situation...-; if her rival had been another woman,she had known how to fight with the another woman's "weapons",but a man,in a rural and inarticulate woman of the 60's,was too much as to be able to make a planning and fight for her love...As you Thomas,say,she needed to know more about Jack to have an answer to her questions; if sooner or later,she had confronted him,it's something that we can only suppose or imagine.
But,surely Ennis saw this possibility more clearly,although he didn't know for sure that they had been seen,and,to avoid it,he wanted to separate them.Letting aside the fact that there have been too many years without one another; too many words to say,too many "things" to do  ,too little time to be together...Knowing Ennis or not that Alma knew it,the most logical is that he didn't want to share Jack more than in the way he was obliged to share him...

[tpe]

So the invitation is an attempt to make things appear normal.  I think this is what you suggest here, and it may very well be.  If this was not what you mwant, then I apologize! 

She is shocked... not only because the husband has betrayed her, but because he's done it with a man, more shocking for that time and so...
During the night she evidently doesn't sleep and when Ennis comes back she thinks that he invites Jack for coffè because there's nothing to hidden, or better, according to Ennis, she has nothing to sospect.
Anyway she wants to have a direct contact with Jack. He's her "rival".
I was so sad when in the next scene she cries and sees them go away...Ennis who frantically goes to Jack...

[myprivatejack]

Very insightful.  And it is true that much happiness is built on other people's sorrow.  Is the amount of happiness in the world a fixed amount?  Can it only go so far with a person?  Sometimes, I think that this is the case...  To Alma, perhaps the calculus was a painful reality.  When someone takes, another has to give, whether he or she likes it or not.

  Thomas ¡ And Alma had to give,I don't know if also give up; but at least,give her part of happinness to Ennis,that's for sure.

[tpe]

Alma certainly didn't want to give willingly.  But she had no choice.  Hence, she decided that 2 could play the game, and perhaps started to plan her life around people and things outside of Ennis's control.  Hence, she was ripe for the taking (i.e., Monroe).

[ten-chi-ka-sui]

Well, I can't disagree with your answers. I  think  that Alma, inviting Jack for coffee was trying to control the situation - if she kept an eye on them, they wouldn't be able to do anything she disliked... For me it would be the reason to do the same , just to know what's going on. And - I hope I will never find out for sure - but I think for me it would be easier to live with my husband cheating me with a man, than with a woman... The other woman means I'm "worse", bu the other man - it's a category I can't compete in.

[myprivatejack]

Well, I can't disagree with your answers. I  think  that Alma, inviting Jack for coffee was trying to control the situation - if she kept an eye on them, they wouldn't be able to do anything she disliked... For me it would be the reason to do the same , just to know what's going on. And - I hope I will never find out for sure - but I think for me it would be easier to live with my husband cheating me with a man, than with a woman... The other woman means I'm "worse", bu the other man - it's a category I can't compete in.

I don't know if we call it exactly "control the situation";I'd call it better "understand the situation".Alma was a woman with all her life builded around their family and home,with a great love for her daughters...and her husband.All of a sudden,she realised this building had no so solid foundations as she thought; at least,her love was not as corresponded by her husband's side because he was waiting for a yesterday's friend simply to show him a love she could think was only for her...It's too much for any woman in this case,I bet ¡...
As regards as if it's "better" to be cheated with a man than with another woman,I think sometimes it reveals that something wasn't as good inside this couple as it could seem,so maybe,to call it somehow,the cheated part is not as good...However,at least with another woman one can find with her same weapons,while with a man you never know for sure what you can give your husband in return,you are always a little outsider there.JMHO.

[ten-chi-ka-sui]

It's sure I judge Alma's behavior as if she was me . It's hard to explain for me, it still fits better to say "control", but as English is not my native language, it's possible I can't express myself so precisely.

Myprivatejack, you say "However,at least with another woman one can find with her same weapons,while with a man you never know for sure what you can give your husband in return,you are always a little outsider there.JMHO." I feel similarly, but I would pull it to an extent: if it was a woman, I would feel obliged to fight, and if it was a man, I would be devastated the same, but I wouldn't feel this pressure to fight, because I would be an outsider there. So the other woman creates the situation of uncertainty - you can win or not; the other man makes situation clearer: you can't win, because you can't fight. Sometimes the truth, however painful, is better than months of uncertainty.

[Karol]

So the invitation is an attempt to make things appear normal.  I think this is what you suggest here, and it may very well be.  If this was not what you mwant, then I apologize! 

Yes, it is what I meant

I don't know if we call it exactly "control the situation";I'd call it better "understand the situation".Alma was a woman with all her life builded around their family and home,with a great love for her daughters...and her husband.All of a sudden,she realised this building had no so solid foundations as she thought; at least,her love was not as corresponded by her husband's side because he was waiting for a yesterday's friend simply to show him a love she could think was only for her...It's too much for any woman in this case,I bet ¡...
As regards as if it's "better" to be cheated with a man than with another woman,I think sometimes it reveals that something wasn't as good inside this couple as it could seem,so maybe,to call it somehow,the cheated part is not as good...However,at least with another woman one can find with her same weapons,while with a man you never know for sure what you can give your husband in return,you are always a little outsider there.JMHO.

I agree...she wants to understand or try to understand

[tpe]

Well, I can't disagree with your answers. I  think  that Alma, inviting Jack for coffee was trying to control the situation - if she kept an eye on them, they wouldn't be able to do anything she disliked... For me it would be the reason to do the same , just to know what's going on. And - I hope I will never find out for sure - but I think for me it would be easier to live with my husband cheating me with a man, than with a woman... The other woman means I'm "worse", bu the other man - it's a category I can't compete in.

How interesting...

I certainly think that she wanted to be in control of the situation.  I think it is natural for people to want this when they are in a position of desperation.  It is a form of denial, I guess...

[ten-chi-ka-sui]

Tpe, you made a great remark! The form of denial that anything is going wrong: if I am the one who controlls the situation, I can easily convince myself that all is OK.

[myprivatejack]

Anyhow,she tries desperately to find out how this man was and what he had that she hadn't-and I'm not talking about dirty jokes,you nasty ¡   -;but in the sense of discovering if maybe he had given something she didn't want or know to give him up to that moment...To find out to a certain point if she had failed in something and,if so,in what.And,surely,yes,pretending everything was OK before the two men she was also denying what had happenned,giving the impression of a "happy family with a friend"who are being sociable with each other.Eyes that don't see,heart that don't feel...

[tpe]

Tpe, you made a great remark! The form of denial that anything is going wrong: if I am the one who controlls the situation, I can easily convince myself that all is OK.

Exactly.  I think we all experienced something like this sometime in our lifetimes -- the need to be in control in order to feel that things are under control.  When things move to fast for us, we become petty with regard to what we can or cannot influence.

[tpe]

Anyhow,she tries desperately to find out how this man was and what he had that she hadn't-and I'm not talking about dirty jokes,you nasty ¡   -;but in the sense of discovering if maybe he had given something she didn't want or know to give him up to that moment...To find out to a certain point if she had failed in something and,if so,in what.And,surely,yes,pretending everything was OK before the two men she was also denying what had happenned,giving the impression of a "happy family with a friend"who are being sociable with each other.Eyes that don't see,heart that don't feel...

So do you think that she wanted to discover what he had that she didn't?  This certainly is a clear manifestation of insecurity.  Did she think that by discovering the source of Ennis's attraction to Jack, she could win back her husband or undermine the pernicious attraction?

[rimasworld]

I think you are spot on.  My feeling is that Alma's desire to see or even confront Jack was totally irrational and not pre-meditated.  I also had a feeling that she had no idea what to say anyway.  But to understand Ennis at that point, she needed to know more about Jack, and the only wat to do this was to see him face to face.  Perhaps Ennis knew this also, and that was why he was intent to keep Alma and Jack separated.

The woman has obviously been up all night after seeing them kissing and Ennis not coming home. We see her sitting at the kitchen table drinking coffee when they finally show up the next morning. OMG just think of all the images that ran through her mind all night, all the questions, all the total disbelief at what she witnessed. Then Ennis comes bolting in, leaving Jack downstairs waiting on him. Ennis is acting totally weird, almost ignoring her and just answering her questions by mostly cutting her off. He definitely did not want her and Jack in the same room ever again so he says "Texans don't drink coffee" just kind of brushing off that question and it was such a silly answer. You could just see the situation getting worse and worse for Alma as she followed him around the apartment.

[tpe]

Her following him around is certainly a telling detail.  It clearly shows a tenacity -- an unwillingness to be just brushed aside.  Still, with nothing concrete to confont him with, she couldn't do much.  Perhaps wanting to confront Jack was a desire to find or fish for some concrete detail that would allow her to confront Ennis...

The woman has obviously been up all night after seeing them kissing and Ennis not coming home. We see her sitting at the kitchen table drinking coffee when they finally show up the next morning. OMG just think of all the images that ran through her mind all night, all the questions, all the total disbelief at what she witnessed. Then Ennis comes bolting in, leaving Jack downstairs waiting on him. Ennis is acting totally weird, almost ignoring her and just answering her questions by mostly cutting her off. He definitely did not want her and Jack in the same room ever again so he says "Texans don't drink coffee" just kind of brushing off that question and it was such a silly answer. You could just see the situation getting worse and worse for Alma as she followed him around the apartment.

[myprivatejack]

So do you think that she wanted to discover what he had that she didn't?  This certainly is a clear manifestation of insecurity.  Did she think that by discovering the source of Ennis's attraction to Jack, she could win back her husband or undermine the pernicious attraction?

I think any cheated and deceived woman wants to discover the reason why she's so;and one of the ways to discover it is trying to know better how her rival is,which is her or his "power",to call it somehow.Of course that this is a clear manifestation of insecurity on Alma's side ¡ All her world is breaking down in only few minutes,everything what she believed in means nothing all of a sudden,everything she has given to her husband,all the love she has shown to him,has no importance bearing in mind what she saw...What kind of security in her marriage,in her life,in herself,can a woman like Alma have now?IMO,very little...So,surely many women in this situation would try and recover her husband's attraction about her; but when this rival is a man,then she feels like being in offside-talking a football's language...-and maybe she needs -more still than with another woman- to know which are the roots of this attraction,as a last and desperate way to win him back.

[myprivatejack]

Her following him around is certainly a telling detail.  It clearly shows a tenacity -- an unwillingness to be just brushed aside.  Still, with nothing concrete to confont him with, she couldn't do much.  Perhaps wanting to confront Jack was a desire to find or fish for some concrete detail that would allow her to confront Ennis...

Maybe her following him around all flat is a way of pretending to find some little detail,some gesture,that could corroborate her fears and,at the same,another little detail or gesture that made Ennis closer to her.As a way of denying unconsciously what she had witnessed,by telling herself that Ennis still loved her and preferred her to Jack for an smile or a caress...Even if I think that,frankly, if a woman sees her husband kissing so passionately "a friend",she had a lot of details to confront him ¡

[tpe]

The fact that the rival was a man and not a woman must have been especially perplexing for Alma, if her instinct was indeed to try to win Ennis back.  After all, sh probably couldn't begin to imagine why any man would favor another man sexually instead of a woman...

I think any cheated and deceived woman wants to discover the reason why she's so;and one of the ways to discover it is trying to know better how her rival is,which is her or his "power",to call it somehow.Of course that this is a clear manifestation of insecurity on Alma's side ¡ All her world is breaking down in only few minutes,everything what she believed in means nothing all of a sudden,everything she has given to her husband,all the love she has shown to him,has no importance bearing in mind what she saw...What kind of security in her marriage,in her life,in herself,can a woman like Alma have now?IMO,very little...So,surely many women in this situation would try and recover her husband's attraction about her; but when this rival is a man,then she feels like being in offside-talking a football's language...-and maybe she needs -more still than with another woman- to know which are the roots of this attraction,as a last and desperate way to win him back.

[tpe]

Maybe her following him around all flat is a way of pretending to find some little detail,some gesture,that could corroborate her fears and,at the same,another little detail or gesture that made Ennis closer to her.As a way of denying unconsciously what she had witnessed,by telling herself that Ennis still loved her and preferred her to Jack for an smile or a caress...Even if I think that,frankly, if a woman sees her husband kissing so passionately "a friend",she had a lot of details to confront him ¡

I do think that her following him around the apartment is like a half-hearted attempt at confrontation.  Alma's problem was that she didn't have the courage to bring it all out in the open, allowing Ennis to have his way.  Did Ennis know that she knew.  I suspect that he did.  He probably fely that it was written all over his face -- the same type of paranoia that he would later confess to Jack.

[aintfoolin]

I think Alma was finally realizing that Jack was not there to visit Ennis,*the family man*, to enjoy an old fishing buddy AND his wife and children, but to reclaim a * male lover* from the past , now her husband.
 Ennis had already stayed out all night with Jack, herself uninvited, after she'd seen them kiss, and now he was leaving with him again. I cannot think of any good reason why Alma would invite Jack up for coffee after seeing what she saw  except maybe she was still in denial or this was a desperate attempt on her part  to have Jack up and try to appeal to Jack's own sense of *family loyalties*  without letting  either man know of her "discovery", for her and the kids' sake, perhaps still hoping that whatever was in the past between Jack and her husband could remain in the past and Jack would eventually bow out.

She had no idea, or warning of the magnitude of feelings involved between the two men.

[tpe]

Yes, I think that she realized that as far as Jack and Ennis were concerned, she and the kids were outsiders.  So, perhaps her trying to insert herself between Jack and Ennis was a typical outsider reaction of wanting in, whether they liked it or not.  had she been more pushy, perhaps she would have made Ennis pause and be more cautious.  But I think she was much to hurt at that point to care too much about pretenses.  Sad that love can exclude as much as it can include.

[ten-chi-ka-sui]

Exactly - by following Ennis and talking about buying cigarettes she wanted him to NOTICE her presence (more even, her existance), as - obviously - when Jack appeared, she and the kids became invisible for Ennis.

[tpe]

Exactly - by following Ennis and talking about buying cigarettes she wanted him to NOTICE her presence (more even, her existance), as - obviously - when Jack appeared, she and the kids became invisible for Ennis.

You do get that sense of invisibility in that scene.  Ennis wasn't caring that much whether his responses to Alma's questions made any sense or not.  I am sure that Alma realized this and wanted somehow to get into Ennis's pysche.

[myprivatejack]

You do get that sense of invisibility in that scene.  Ennis wasn't caring that much whether his responses to Alma's questions made any sense or not.  I am sure that Alma realized this and wanted somehow to get into Ennis's pysche.

I don't think that exactly Ennis wasn't caring about the sense of his responses;he,simply,was in another world the,with his thoughts put in the night of love he had just had with Jack and the days he was going to spent by his side.It wasn't a subject of caring or not for what Alma could think,but more a subject of caring more for Jack.So simple and so real.Of course,Alma realised this and wanted,yes,to get into Ennis's psyche at the same time that she was trying to recover his interest somehow,that he noticed he had some duties with her and the girls,that he was her husband again...Too hard task,indeed.

[tpe]

Well, I think that was exactly my point -- although my wording may have been a bit misleading.  He certainly was in another world, and he was probably not very conscious of what he was saying at that very moment.  All he was thinking about was to go up to the mountains with Jack -- everything else was a blur.

I don't think that exactly Ennis wasn't caring about the sense of his responses;he,simply,was in another world the,with his thoughts put in the night of love he had just had with Jack and the days he was going to spent by his side.It wasn't a subject of caring or not for what Alma could think,but more a subject of caring more for Jack.So simple and so real.Of course,Alma realised this and wanted,yes,to get into Ennis's psyche at the same time that she was trying to recover his interest somehow,that he noticed he had some duties with her and the girls,that he was her husband again...Too hard task,indeed.

[mimi1996]

I get the feeling that she invited jack for coffee because

a)she wanted to sus them both out (as a "couple")
b) she just wanted an excuse to get ennis to stay for at least a little longer before he ran off into the mountains with his "fishing buddy"

[tpe]

I get the feeling that she invited jack for coffee because

a)she wanted to sus them both out (as a "couple")
b) she just wanted an excuse to get ennis to stay for at least a little longer before he ran off into the mountains with his "fishing buddy"

The second one is indeed a good point.  It can be seen also as a desperate attempt to make Ennis stay -- even if it meant having to have jack in the same room with him.  It was perhaps an admission -- Alma understood that to keep Jack there would be the best way to keep Ennis there also.