Topic: Alma invites Jack for coffee?

[tpe]

I am sure that Alma had a ton of questions she wantyed answered, but she understood that she was in a delicate position, and would have to appear "natural", in spite of everything that she saw.  Still, it seemed that Ennis was adamant in not letting her get ANY opportunity to interact with Jack, and it would seem that he understood the danger of her knowing too much, even if he knew what she saw...

[lancecowboy]

Wow, never knew about this thread. Great question.

Let's see, what's been mentioned already:

1. someone quoted the shortstory...the electric current between the cowboys, vibrating floor board, the excitement to get out of there, and staying out all night...Alma sure knew, if she didn't already, that more than just a kiss was going on between those two. She could probably feel the heat and electricity from way over there.

2. great insights from mpj and asali, that Alma wanted to observe Jack and Ennis and see more of the interaction between them, not just the electric sparks.

3. Alma wants to understand this man who has such impact on her husband, to find out more

4. Simple hospitality and courtesy. It was kinda rude of Jack to come calling and not visit for a while. In fact, he knew Ennis was married so it was rude not to bring something on his first visit. To stand out there and not come in the next morning was even more rude.

5. Alma was really trying to make the marriage work. She said to get a sitter so they can go out for a nice dinner. Ennis shut her down from the get go, and never gave her a chance. He kept his Brokeback Mountain separate from his "stuck life in Riverton".

Texans don't drink coffee...Alma finally had enough of this rudeness and ready to give him a piece of her mind. Then Jr came in asking for a big fish, and she could say nothing, except with tears. Ennis saw 'em tears, but the separate part of his heart was pulling him out the door. He could do nothing about it. Got no reins on this one ladies. See you on Sunday. That's was a heart-wrenching scene.

[aintfoolin]

I tend to believe that this question was only a way to measure-to say it in some way...-Ennis attention towards herself and towards Jack at the same time.If she was talking to Ennis,she could see by his reaction what she saw in the end;that Ennis was totally illusioned with Jack's visit and had no ears or eyes more than for him.IMO,the cup of coffee was just an excuse to see this,give her a time to react and get her plan,that she couldn't do because nobody take her into account.Surely,if Jack had come for having this cup,she would have observed their reactions together and she had done anything to avoid their journey.

 I've always been fascinated with this relationship. Jack and Alma. Ennis's wife and his lover. Rivals.  If I remember correctly, it was Jack who coaxed Ennis to extend the reunion  while in the motel room.
The information  that her husband Ennis was going "fishing" with Jack for a few days would be of no value except..she had seen the kiss.
She knows her husband and Jack have gone there before , but how did it get this far without a clue? I agree that Alma wanted to observe the two of them further, perhaps to find out just how deep this thing went.  No doubt  she felt that Ennis had misrepresented himself to her. Not even with some other ranchand co-worker., but with Jack, a  gorgeous,successful Texas business man, fancy, and worldly by her traditional standards.  She may have been intimidated, but she slso knew she had alot to lose.  She was confused and shocked.  and that morning , had Jack come up, it would not be just polite conversation for long.  It was not until she sees Jack still downstairs, that she goes into full desperation mode saying anything to keep Ennis from leaving again.That's why Ennis was not going there. His behavior during this scene is to get some distance between he and Jack and Alma for his own sake.  The ex-lover and the wife coming face to face over coffee?, to talk about what?  Who wants to sweat it out  in THAT hotseat?? Not Ennis or Jack.

[tpe]

Wow, never knew about this thread. Great question.

Let's see, what's been mentioned already:

1. someone quoted the shortstory...the electric current between the cowboys, vibrating floor board, the excitement to get out of there, and staying out all night...Alma sure knew, if she didn't already, that more than just a kiss was going on between those two. She could probably feel the heat and electricity from way over there.

2. great insights from mpj and asali, that Alma wanted to observe Jack and Ennis and see more of the interaction between them, not just the electric sparks.

3. Alma wants to understand this man who has such impact on her husband, to find out more

4. Simple hospitality and courtesy. It was kinda rude of Jack to come calling and not visit for a while. In fact, he knew Ennis was married so it was rude not to bring something on his first visit. To stand out there and not come in the next morning was even more rude.

5. Alma was really trying to make the marriage work. She said to get a sitter so they can go out for a nice dinner. Ennis shut her down from the get go, and never gave her a chance. He kept his Brokeback Mountain separate from his "stuck life in Riverton".

Texans don't drink coffee...Alma finally had enough of this rudeness and ready to give him a piece of her mind. Then Jr came in asking for a big fish, and she could say nothing, except with tears. Ennis saw 'em tears, but the separate part of his heart was pulling him out the door. He could do nothing about it. Got no reins on this one ladies. See you on Sunday. That's was a heart-wrenching scene.

Lance, you are right in your observation that thr entry of Jr in that scene intruded on Alma's resolve to confront Ennis, and I do think that when we see Ennis look into Alma's eyes when he carries Jr, we see a silent plea to ask no more questions, even as it reflected a mixture of guilt, discomfort, and pity.

[lancecowboy]

Lance, you are right in your observation that thr entry of Jr in that scene intruded on Alma's resolve to confront Ennis, and I do think that when we see Ennis look into Alma's eyes when he carries Jr, we see a silent plea to ask no more questions, even as it reflected a mixture of guilt, discomfort, and pity.

I don't know about guilt, discomfort or pity. Then again, I ain't no good at reading emotional signals from body language so you may be right.

I just thought that the look Ennis gave Alma, was like the one he gave her in the store, when he dropped off the kids and went off to the ranch. Alma said what about my job, and he was like, don't make a scene woman.

It was more of a scary look, with finality and kinda sorry lady. And the way he kissed Alma on the way out, on the forehead, shows the relationship was over. Who kisses their spouse on the forehead?  Except in foreplay. 

[tpe]

I don't know about guilt, discomfort or pity. Then again, I ain't no good at reading emotional signals from body language so you may be right.

I just thought that the look Ennis gave Alma, was like the one he gave her in the store, when he dropped off the kids and went off to the ranch. Alma said what about my job, and he was like, don't make a scene woman.

It was more of a scary look, with finality and kinda sorry lady. And the way he kissed Alma on the way out, on the forehead, shows the relationship was over. Who kisses their spouse on the forehead?  Except in foreplay. 

Hmmm.  Very interesting, lance.  I must admit that I had never linked the 2 looks together.  For me (at least prior to this), they were quite different, but I see your point.  One could interpret some sense of finality in both looks -- it is true. 

[aintfoolin]

Maybe it was Ennis's idea to have jack wait downstairs while he "explains" to Alma that he  will be leaving again, just in case Alma gave him a problem about it, but i feel Alma already had it in for Jack. She did'nt know him, but she knew Ennis (or thoght she did). so Jack becomes the culprit, the nemisis, taking Ennis away from her and the girls. . Risking job loss,and "corrupting"  her husband. The look on her face when she looks out the window and sees Jack still there speaks volumes. They are both  forced to think quickly on their feet, Ennis  is just as determined to get back with Jack as soon as possible as Alma is keeping Ennis with her. " he's from Texas" is not rational thinking, but Ennis does'nt really care at that point. Jack is waiting downstairs  lookin so fine in that red shirt., after four years. He had no intentions of ending this thing and is not only feeling lucky, he is feeling grateful that he's gotten a 2nd chance. It came down to breaking Jack's heart or Alma's ...Advantage, Jack. .  Alma never had a chance. My take.

[tpe]

Maybe it was Ennis's idea to have jack wait downstairs while he "explains" to Alma that he  will be leaving again, just in case Alma gave him a problem about it,

True enough.  This is more than plausable.  It was prudent.

but i feel Alma already had it in for Jack. She did'nt know him, but she knew Ennis (or thoght she did). so Jack becomes the culprit, the nemisis, taking Ennis away from her and the girls. . Risking job loss,and "corrupting"  her husband. The look on her face when she looks out the window and sees Jack still there speaks volumes. They are both  forced to think quickly on their feet, Ennis  is just as determined to get back with Jack as soon as possible as Alma is keeping Ennis with her. " he's from Texas" is not rational thinking, but Ennis does'nt really care at that point. Jack is waiting downstairs  lookin so fine in that red shirt., after four years. He had no intentions of ending this thing and is not only feeling lucky, he is feeling grateful that he's gotten a 2nd chance. It came down to breaking Jack's heart or Alma's ...Advantage, Jack. .  Alma never had a chance. My take.

I also agree that after she saw the reunion kiss, Jack had become her nemesis.  From then on, there would be no parley, as far as Alma's heart was concerned.

[atalley]

Once again I agree w/ all of you.  Good points as usual, Andrew.  One thing that surprised me (esp. at first) ...Alma says "ain't you forgettin' somethin?"/ Ennis doesn't even bother to give her a peck on the cheek.  Marriage over then-for what it's worth.

[tpe]

Once again I agree w/ all of you.  Good points as usual, Andrew.  One thing that surprised me (esp. at first) ...Alma says "ain't you forgettin' somethin?"/ Ennis doesn't even bother to give her a peck on the cheek.  Marriage over then-for what it's worth.

Exactly -- the absence of a kiss in that scene was intended to contrast with the kiss he gave Alma before joining Jack up in the mountains during the reunion.  Ennis -- inspite of thwarting Alma's desire to "confront" Jack during the reunion -- still loved her then, in his own conflicted way.

[myprivatejack]

Exactly -- the absence of a kiss in that scene was intended to contrast with the kiss he gave Alma before joining Jack up in the mountains during the reunion.  Ennis -- inspite of thwarting Alma's desire to "confront" Jack during the reunion -- still loved her then, in his own conflicted way.

Yes,he loved her in his own way,but not as much as he loved Jack.Maybe the kiss was a way to "make himself be forgiven",but in the second time he left Alma to be with his lover,his election was already done.And the absence of another goodbye kiss it's for me a symbol of this election.Even if that was going to be in his heart,never in an active and rational way.

[atalley]

I know that Alma still loved Ennis, but I don't think Ennis loved her.  I think she came to love Monroe, if for no other reason than him being father, provider and protecter.

[smartestsonia]

Yes,he loved her in his own way,but not as much as he loved Jack.Maybe the kiss was a way to "make himself be forgiven",but in the second time he left Alma to be with his lover,his election was already done.And the absence of another goodbye kiss it's for me a symbol of this election.Even if that was going to be in his heart,never in an active and rational way.

I completely agree with what u have said MPJ
I think that Ennis did care for Alma..there r all kinds of love in this world..he loved Alma as she was the mother of his children..she was a good person basically...he never wanted to hurt her intentionally...Ennis love for Jack is the most pure love though..It is above all...He loved Jack beyond limits...I think when Ennis dint kiss Alma the second time Alma realized that Ennis is all for Jack and he loved him the most...

[aintfoolin]

I completely agree with what u have said MPJ
I think that Ennis did care for Alma..there r all kinds of love in this world..he loved Alma as she was the mother of his children..she was a good person basically...he never wanted to hurt her intentionally...Ennis love for Jack is the most pure love though..It is above all...He loved Jack beyond limits...I think when Ennis dint kiss Alma the second time Alma realized that Ennis is all for Jack and he loved him the most...

 I feel from the moment Jack informed  Ennis that  the summer on Brokeback was  ending,( "bring em down"), Ennis started trying to convince himself that the one shot thing was just that ,  what bolstered and levied  that argument  with himself was that he was engaged to Alma. She was  waiting in the wings to sweep him off to a life  with a face  he could show society and  that Jack would eventually become  a memory of a distant summer on Brokeback Mt.  Jack was "fun" ,   Alma will prove to him that Jack WAS just a one time thing. Marrying Alma would prove to himself he was on the " straight and narrow". He thought by marrying her he could let Jack go and move on. I think he really beleive it at first.,....all the time knowing the truth of the matter......  as he confesses to Jack, , I shoulda " never let you outta my sight" after only one year of marriage to her. Marrying her did not change the love he had for Jack in any way. That realization must have hung over Ennis the next 3 years , like a longing  shadow until Jack reunited with him.The one he was "in love" with.

Certainly for Alma she felt she had a good life, with a good man, but things could'nt have  been further from the truth. I think he believed in and loved having family, his girls , no doubt the apple of his eye, Alma gave him that. I feel he liked being taken care of by her and was close to her.  But did he lover her? As you say Smartsonia, there are many ways to love someone. He loved her, got used to her company, but no way as intense as he felt for Jack. He learned  Alma ,  a woman  he loved ,only fullfilled part of his need, Jack, a man, in every sense of the word,  fullied all of them. I feel Jack made him feel whole and complete, a real part of someone else. I could'nt help but feel sorry for her, but Ennis and Jack just belonged together.

[smartestsonia]

Thanks aintfoolin...I also feel that when Ennis said that it was a one shot thing it was like a defense mechanism…Marrying Alma was the best way to prove himself straight and to protect himself from the world…He could cover all the truth that way..he did love and care for Alma in his own way….and its obvious that he can never love anyone the way he loves Jack..that is the ultinmate reality..Jack was the love of his life and the passion, intimacy, depth of love he shared with Jack is out of the world and too beautiful…I also feel sorry for Alma as she loved Ennis a lot but Ennis ands Jack r soulmates and meant to be together always..I think Alma deserved to know that truth…

[tpe]

I know that Alma still loved Ennis, but I don't think Ennis loved her.  I think she came to love Monroe, if for no other reason than him being father, provider and protecter.

I think his love for her later became embittered.  I wonder too whether any vestige of their former love survived in the end.  Probably not.

[tpe]

Yes,he loved her in his own way,but not as much as he loved Jack.Maybe the kiss was a way to "make himself be forgiven",but in the second time he left Alma to be with his lover,his election was already done.And the absence of another goodbye kiss it's for me a symbol of this election.Even if that was going to be in his heart,never in an active and rational way.

I have thought sometimes that this kiss was a goodbye kiss on a much deeper level...

[myprivatejack]

I have thought sometimes that this kiss was a goodbye kiss on a much deeper level...

Yes,it was a kind of saying goodbye to some hidden and denied feelings and saying goodbye to the kind of life Alma and Ennis had had until that moment.At least,it was going to be so in his heart,although never in his real intentions...

[tpe]

Do you think that THAT kiss is in the form of a betrayal?  As in a Judas kiss?

[myprivatejack]

Do you think that THAT kiss is in the form of a betrayal?  As in a Judas kiss?

Perhaps not so,but a kind of "relieving" himself from the more or less great guilt feeling he must have,even if he didn't realise it because his happiness for having Jack in the end was much greater.

[tpe]

Perhaps not so,but a kind of "relieving" himself from the more or less great guilt feeling he must have,even if he didn't realise it because his happiness for having Jack in the end was much greater.

I can't help but think sometimes that -- although Ennis never intended the kiss to mean as such --  Alma understood it as a kind of a betrayal, in the style of Judas, who, after all, "loved" the Master he betrayed.

[myprivatejack]

I can't help but think sometimes that -- although Ennis never intended the kiss to mean as such --  Alma understood it as a kind of a betrayal, in the style of Judas, who, after all, "loved" the Master he betrayed.

No,I also think that Ennis never intended that the kiss had this meaning; even if he must feel a little guilty,or at least,badly,and even if he was feeling happier than guilty,really.

[aintfoolin]

 Imo , certainly Ennis had to be feeling a certain amount of guilt at this stage when he kissed her. He was kind of hesitant to do so and his eyes spoke of something that could'nt be said out loud and that is... he was feeling resentful of her. Almost having to do more with the feelings toward her as opposed to those feelings he had for Jack.  As for the the kiss, he was doing what he thought he was "supposed" to do at the most, what was expected of him at the moment. I think he grew to resent her because she was'nt Jack. Sub-conciensly he may have been *punishing" her. He totally disregarded her concerns about him leaving with Jack again and if she'd never saw what she saw , this still would go down as a huge diss to her feelings about it.

She had every excuse in the book to make him stay, and he used every excuse in the book to counter her so to him, it was never a matter of him not going, only a matter of how he could do it with the least amount of negative confrontation and guilt. Nothing short of chaining him to a chair was gonna keep him from his Jack. As painful as that was for her, she already knew she was fighting a losing battle.

[tpe]

Thanks MPJ and aintfoolin.  The reason I brought this up was apprently also noticed by aintfoolin: the guilty look in Ennis's eyes.  But both of you do point out that it could be more about guilt than betrayal, although I tend to think that these 2 aredifferent sides of the same coin...

[aintfoolin]

Thanks MPJ and aintfoolin.  The reason I brought this up was apprently also noticed by aintfoolin: the guilty look in Ennis's eyes.  But both of you do point out that it could be more about guilt than betrayal, although I tend to think that these 2 aredifferent sides of the same coin...

Your right tpe, I feel betrayal and guilt did go hand in hand at that moment. As you say, "diffeent sides of the same coin",  Imo he saw in her eyes that he was betraying her, and I feel that accounts for the guilt. He was'nt asking her permission nor her opinion. Jack was still in town and was waiting downstairs. She knew it was settled when she desperatly followed him throught the house, of course she had to try... Though Ennis may have felt betrayal and guilt , it still was'nt enough to overcome his desire to be with Jack and she knew it.  So did he. "See you Sunday , latest", I think that's what he said, I may be wrong. 

[tpe]

Your right tpe, I feel betrayal and guilt did go hand in hand at that moment. As you say, "diffeent sides of the same coin",  Imo he saw in her eyes that he was betraying her, and I feel that accounts for the guilt. He was'nt asking her permission nor her opinion. Jack was still in town and was waiting downstairs. She knew it was settled when she desperatly followed him throught the house, of course she had to try... Though Ennis may have felt betrayal and guilt , it still was'nt enough to overcome his desire to be with Jack and she knew it.  So did he. "See you Sunday , latest", I think that's what he said, I may be wrong. 

This is exactly how I felt.  I should note that there is also a look of determination on Ennis's eyes and face -- a sense of steeling himself and a sense of no backing out.  And as you said, for Alma, she felt trapeed by the seeming inevitability of it all.  She sense that there was nothing she could do to stop him.

[atalley]

Ennis was unstoppable.  He says "see you Sunday, ladies."

[tpe]

Ennis was unstoppable.  He says "see you Sunday, ladies."

He was essentially "slamming" the door at her face.  No exit.

[Karol]

She's obviously surprised.
I think that she can't believe what it's happened. She wants to talk with them (but she doesn't know what to say indeed )  and understand why Ennis has doing it.

[tpe]

She's obviously surprised.
I think that she can't believe what it's happened. She wants to talk with them (but she doesn't know what to say indeed )  and understand why Ennis has doing it.

I think you are spot on.  My feeling is that Alma's desire to see or even confront Jack was totally irrational and not pre-meditated.  I also had a feeling that she had no idea what to say anyway.  But to understand Ennis at that point, she needed to know more about Jack, and the only wat to do this was to see him face to face.  Perhaps Ennis knew this also, and that was why he was intent to keep Alma and Jack separated.