Topic: When Jack got mad...

[aintfoolin]

 First---This  is not a bash Jack thread niether do I place blame.  I only seek to explore  the root of his anger. Sometimes I feel it's justified, sometimes I don't. In his marriage ,LD, and Lureen appear to be controlling factors, in his relationship with Ennis, Ennis seems the controlling factor,( though he could'nt live without  Jack)  Could'nt stand Aguirre's rules, but needs him too. This had to be frustrating for him.

 Rejection from his father, himself very controlling and abusive. Could this be it? Jack's lack of control over his life?  An inability to control the direction of his own life? Was he contributing to his own frustration and anger by waiting so long for Ennis? or did he feel led on with *mixed signals* seeing only what he wanted to see? .
 I think he only wanted it all to make sense to him. When it did'nt, well just ask LD who dared go toe to toe with him at Thanksgiving. .  but was his anger really justified in the confrontation scenes?  The divorce scene?  He was no wimp, that's  for sure.  Was his anger focused just on Ennis's  rejection ,or  at all the people who controlled who he could be his  whole life?
 Yeah, Ennis could've helped in a big way by agreeing to ranching up, but that was'nt happening, but does'nt he  get some credit for being the sacrificing ,faithful , lover? He had his inner demons, yes,  so did Jack.  And last, did'nt Jack just grow to dread what being in  love with someone who could'nt commit to him, did to him and his pride despite  all his own sacrifices?, and  try  desperatly to quit Ennis but  could'nt?  I mean "one of them things " Ennis did'nt know about, and Jack was'nt tellin), was Randall ,waiting in the wings in Texas. Just sayin...../askin.

 Jack  brought alot of true  happiness to alot of people , but to himself, it proved elusive.  Was he just confused ? or an angry victim of fear?

[Tony]

   Aintfoolin, you are breaking new ground, and this is a very original thread, so it is tough to respond, when all we might have are initial
impressions.  Mine are that Jack was not so hot-tempered as Ennis, more happy-go-lucky, and so have overlooked this part of him- when
he got mad.
  As far as at that last visit, he did go off like a rocket, and there did emerge an anger that had been simmering for a long while.  Part of it was
that they were growing older.  What he might have accepted, in his 20's and 30's, he was beginning to see as not sustainable into later years.
There was the pressure of growing older, and time was running out, to make, or force choices.
   He really did get angry, but I never saw it in his nature to pursue his anger, once he'd vented it.  After the blow-up at the Thanksgiving
dinner, it was probably his father-in-law that came to a brooding, long-term, anger.
  And his anger with Ennis--well, he forgave, but was left with the original complaint.  Help us out, Aintfoolin---maybe a little more guidance
as to what you are looking for.  It's a great idea for a thread.  Am just not sure how to approach something so new, at least to me.

[LuvJackNasty]

Great topic! I was thinking of stuff like this the other night mainly about his relationship with Lureen. And the passive aggressive nature of the boys relationship.

I think Jack was a strong person, yet learned early on to not rock the boat. I've already rambled in other threads about his upbringing and will try to not do that here. I think the main thing was the lack of control over his life; a feeling of helplessness.

One thing I had been thinking of was his dealings with Lureen. In the OS it said: Lureen had the money and called the shots. So even at that late stage Lureen was still controlling in that regard.  Jack couldn't help his own son because Lureen chose to live in denial. Yeah he had newer trucks and clothes but was that because he wanted them or was that for the sake of "image" probably at Lureen's insistence? More of “playing the part?”

Jack was "aggressive" in setting things in motion up on BBM. But yet he was passive when Ennis said goodbye at the end of the summer. I don't know if I would say that was “fear” there because at that point I don't think he expected to ever see Ennis again. So what did he have to lose if he had pushed a little? But he was already rejected so why ask for more? He again set things in motion by sending the reunion postcard, which carried a big risk of rejection. I know that’s not really what the topic is about but it was on my mind in terms of dynamics.

The Thanksgiving scene? Totally justified. In the beginning of the scene he was being passive when he let LD carve the turkey but to overstep his bounds when it came to parenting? Oh no way. I probably would have said worse to LD.

The confrontation scene? I think it was justified. He held his tongue for all of those years.
 Jack made concessions in his life, most of which were at his own expense. He was always settling. He settled for one perfect summer in ’63, he settled for a few trips a year because something was better than nothing. And to have a week taken from him was a lot. The goodbyes had to be so hard at the end of those weeks so he was already closing up, hurting even and then to find out that the next trip was put off? And then Ennis throws in the child support excuse. Very valid and I’m not Ennis bashing but I could see Jack thinking “I’d have child support to pay too if we had ranched up. We’d be in the same boat.” In a sense it wasn’t fair to have his financial situation thrown at him when that wasn’t what he wanted from the get go. That was all dumb luck (for lack of a better expression).

I think he was tired of living half a life. If he wanted to see Ennis it had to be on Ennis’s terms- Jack did the driving up to Wyoming so they could have those weeks. (Again, not Ennis bashing, just a fact. I know Ennis sacrificed a LOT to have those meetings as well).
I think he was just a sensitive soul and that doesn’t equal weakness but one can only give so much before there's nothing left to give. The only thing that he had control over (to some extent) was that he loved Ennis. That was his and no one could take that from him. I can only imagine the inner battle that was within Jack. Knowing that the situation was detrimental to his emotional well being but yet needing Ennis because he was the only person who knew the real Jack and loved him for that. Angry at himself for being "needy"? More than likely.

I ramlbed on and probably still didn't answer one thing that the topic was asking for.  But I can see where all of these things could be tipping points that maifested as anger.

[manhattangirl]

The one thing I noticed is that in every relationship Jack ever had, the question of respect, always to me pops up.  Getting respect from his father who showed none, getting respect from Lureen, from LD, and even from Ennis, was lacking in some form or another.   

Sexuality was never a question in Jack's case, he seem to recognized it, and embrace it.  The problem was Jack Twist as a man.  The reason I include Ennis is because, yes I know he was going through his own thing, but Jack as a man, reached out time and time again, only to thwarted at every turn by Ennis own inner turmoil, but never gave up on him.  Though Ennis did hurt him, and deeply. 

I can't help remember the divorce scene, and Ennis letting Jack know he was Alma divorced him?  Why did he let him know, if Ennis was ever really in tune to Jack he should have known Jack would have taken the next thing smokin' to be with him, and he did.  What did  Ennis do but treated him like he had a big red "Q" on his forehead, and dismissed him, but confirming next month date.  Wow, if that doesn't make someone take stock in themselves and his relationship to those around him, this moment did it for Jack.

Subsequently his relationship with LD, Lureen, and Ennis did change for him, he found his voice and his manhood, after being silent for so long.   LD sat his ass quietly down, Lureen found out Jack is not putting up with her airs, and Ennis brokedown at Jack even stating he wish he could quit him. 

Jack was taking no hostages, his feeling were loud and clear, and meant to be heard.  It was years in coming and it happened. He may not have material things, nothing in his name, but  he did have his manhood, self-respect,  and his love. 

IMO.

 

[welshwitch]

I see Jack in essence as lost in a world in which he doesn't fit and over which he has no control. He had little lin common with his father and got out of Lightning Flat as soon as he could - he's only 19 when he meets Ennis,has already been rodeoing and spent the previous summer herding sheep. Then there's the cataclysmic effect of his second summer, which ends at the same time as his discovery that Ennis isn't interested in seeing him again, there's his failure at rodeoing, the rejection by Aguirre the following summer, the marriage to a girl whose father clearly loathes him then the high of the reunion followed by a second disappointment when Ennis makes it clear he isn't going to change anything.

Jack ends up with irregular brief periods of happiness followed by months in a meaningless job with an indifferent wife and hostile in-laws. The third rejection after Ennis's divorce has the most  powerful effect; after that he's a man who has paid Mexican prostitutes for sex. And at that point he has nowhere to go.Looking back over this would give an unbroken vista of failure, disappointment, disillusion - enough to make anyone angry and bitter.There is nothing he can do to change things - in every aspect of his life he is tied to someone or something over whom he has little or no influence, never mind control. Which explains the Thanksgiving outburst and the final confrontation with Ennsi - if you have so little, maybe desperation leads you to smash up even that, because it's such a travesty of how you see yourself and what you want from life.

[babytammy7]

AMEN Michelle, MG and WW!!!

The only thing that he had control over (to some extent) was that he loved Ennis. That was his and no one could take that from him.

There's only a thing I disagree. I think that he had NOT control over his love for Ennis. He endured a lot of things that not all people had endured. He settled with dreaming and hoping for so many years 'cause he loved Ennis deeply, and if he had had control over his love, he had finished with all that suffer long time ago, but not even he was able to quit Ennis, 'cause he was absolutely powerless about his feelings for Ennis. Just MHO.

[Tony]

    Wow---I knew a new question would lead me somewhere I hadn't been before, and this one did.  Anger?  There's a very short display of anger
on Jack's part that opens up a whole new understanding of what went wrong up on the mountain.
    It's the kissing scene, when they re-unite again after 4 years.  Give Ennis credit for at least this---he broke bad, he grabbed Jack, and kissed
him with an intensity maybe never seen before.  And no preliminaries, either.  No games.
    So, look closer at Jack's facial expression--he didn't melt all warm and cuddly.  There's ANGER, as he grabs Ennis and kisses him back and the
facial expression easily says: you son of a b**ch, you LOVED me, and you kept that from me, and I'm freaking ANGRY!  Look, again, please--
Jack is stunned, and then angry, and then determined to show Ennis he will match him kiss for kiss and admit his own love.
  Which means neither of them got the message across up there on the mountain.  Please look for the shock and anger.  It's there.

[welshwitch]

He'd be less than human if he wasn't angry about the way Ennis seems able so easily to put up with their separation most of the time, while Jack finds it intolerable. And he must sometimes ask himself why Ennis is as he is and why fate has allowed him to fall in love with the one man who whatever his enmotions is not going to allow them to run away with him or even consider changing the status quo.

[babytammy7]

I would say:" You son of a b**ch, you LOVED me, and you sent me away? You f**ing loved me and you just did and said NOTHING that last day!!!"

Yes Tony I saw that, but also, as many brokies have said, if you watch that scene in slow motion you can see in Jack's face, first sweetness watching Ennis, then fear maybe thinking that Ennis was going to punch him or something, then surprise 'cause he couldn't believe that Ennis was kissing him after 4 years and out in the open!!! Then anger as you said, and finally so much love and desire.

[Tony]

    BabyTammy, am sure you are right and I will look for that, next time I watch the movie.  Just now, however, remembered the anger and
what it meant.
   It's long over-due, to focus on Jack.  He was a love-puppy, but there had to be a lot of hurt at what seemed to be rejection from everyone.
Did he want too much from the world?  For people to be like him, good-natured and loving? Probably. But he had a right to expect more from
Ennis, and that must have been extremely demoralizing.  At least his anger, whenever it showed, was a righteous anger and not a rage.
Even when angry, quick to forgive, quick to try to lower the hurt.  Even with his creepy father-in-law.  And all these things...were left for
Ennis to remember.  Just how much he lost.

[manhattangirl]

   Wow---I knew a new question would lead me somewhere I hadn't been before, and this one did.  Anger?  There's a very short display of anger
on Jack's part that opens up a whole new understanding of what went wrong up on the mountain.
    It's the kissing scene, when they re-unite again after 4 years.  Give Ennis credit for at least this---he broke bad, he grabbed Jack, and kissed
him with an intensity maybe never seen before.  And no preliminaries, either.  No games.
    So, look closer at Jack's facial expression--he didn't melt all warm and cuddly.  There's ANGER, as he grabs Ennis and kisses him back and the
facial expression easily says: you son of a b**ch, you LOVED me, and you kept that from me, and I'm freaking ANGRY!  Look, again, please--
Jack is stunned, and then angry, and then determined to show Ennis he will match him kiss for kiss and admit his own love.
  Which means neither of them got the message across up there on the mountain.  Please look for the shock and anger.  It's there.

Anger, shock, desire,and releif  so many emotions overtaking him, and notice how he coud barely talk to Alma, how he barely held himself up, one glance at Jack Ennis knew he had to get him out of there.  

Oh yeah,  anger was indeed there, "Why didn't you tell me?"

[LuvJackNasty]

AMEN Michelle, MG and WW!!!

There's only a thing I disagree. I think that he had NOT control over his love for Ennis. He endured a lot of things that not all people had endured. He settled with dreaming and hoping for so many years 'cause he loved Ennis deeply, and if he had had control over his love, he had finished with all that suffer long time ago, but not even he was able to quit Ennis, 'cause he was absolutely powerless about his feelings for Ennis. Just MHO.

I agree.  He couldn't help that he loved Ennis. I keep trying to articulate what I meant by that but you seem to have done it for me.

Great posts everyone- everyone seems to be able to say it so concisely and I ramble on to get from point a to point b.

I never took that look of Jack's in the kiss to be angry- just more shocked and overcome. I can certainly see where that emotion could be running through him, though. Makes total sense. Ilove that scene so it'll be no hardship for me to look at it again with that in mind.

[aintfoolin]

I must say there is a special place in my heart for Jack. I see I'm not alone in that, thank you all for all the great postings,

  But trying to figure him , I keep coming back to the control factor and why he almost always ends up in the meddle of someone else's trap. It's a wonder he turned out as well as he did, but he had issues.  It's all so simplistic to him. 2+2 makes 4, the light's green, let's go!. He drifted into relationships that where those around him already had agendas or personal issues of their own.  I see him being pulled in  so many  different directions , spreading himself very thin. It seems to be  one of his greatest assests, his open and caring personality trait that causes this vulnerability in him.

He was an only child subject to (according to the SS) physical and emotional abuse designed to humiliate his self-esteem. Could'nt please the old man, found disrepect throught his life, but really, what did Jack control?
what aspect of his life did HE have complete conrol over with out dependence on someone else's actions? On the one hand there's Ennis, unable to fully commit to him for reasons he cannot control, fears,etc...On the other, A wife and child he is willing to leave in a moment's notice. Thats how happy he was there..not very.

Long term goals are impossible, he is standing in the middle of the train tracks , if he steps to the side of Ennis, he's doomed to the status quo, if he steps to Lureen's side, he is still doomed to a a totally unfulfilled life. This I feel would make any one angry. If he goes home to LF , there's his dad's pounding home his failures.
 Puts all his cards on Ennis, the one he loves. The only one he finds peace, acceptance and completeness. I said in other threads that this where Jack underestimated where his power was. Imo This was it.  His strong suite. . Ennis was not about to let him go. Could'nt.  Jack owned him . Just look no further than him on his knees crying and sick over being seperated. And then The reeption he got in the reunion scene.  I mean Jack has an major impact on the stubborn mule, Ennis.
 Had Jack played his cards right and challenged Ennis more,  overcame his own fear, and taken  the bull by the horns, he could have worked with this. Yeah, yeah, I know, Ennis was stubborn as a mule, but he was vulnerable to Jack. A soft spot in the armor. I think he was angry at himself for not realizing sooner that he did'nt take  control sooner.

[babytammy7]

Puts all his cards on Ennis, the one he loves. The only one he finds peace, acceptance and completeness. I said in other threads that this where Jack underestimated where his power was. Imo This was it.  His strong suite. . Ennis was not about to let him go. Could'nt.  Jack owned him . Just look no further than him on his knees crying and sick over being seperated. And then The reeption he got in the reunion scene.  I mean Jack has an major impact on the stubborn mule, Ennis.
 Had Jack played his cards right and challenged Ennis more,  overcame his own fear, and taken  the bull by the horns, he could have worked with this. Yeah, yeah, I know, Ennis was stubborn as a mule, but he was vulnerable to Jack. A soft spot in the armor. I think he was angry at himself for not realizing sooner that he did'nt take  control sooner.

Beautiful AF!! You got me thinking here.....

[manhattangirl]

There was something about Jack that drew these people to him without him really even trying.  Just think about it, Lureen was draw to him, she notice him at the rodeo, and went right up to him, he made no effort, she did all the work.  Even Randall, what did he notice about Jack, what gave him the guts to even attempt to even propose that they see each other.  And of course Ennis who before FNIT, open himself up to Jack, brought that very sturdy wall he constructed for himself down let Jack in.

I think Jack more than Ennis, knew the pain of growing up with an overbearing abusive father, and apparently a protective mother.  His mother took him out of harms way, I feel this because when he spoke of going church with her, he didn't know what a Pentecost was, but I think she took him to protect him from his father, she knew his secrets, and held them close to her, thats why she knew of the shirts, and kept his roomthe way he had it when he was a boy.  She was not only his protector, she was his protector of his secrets, and his memory. 

Jack was not a mean, or  looked to hurt anyone.  His openness, his wit, his easy going friendly nature that drew people to him.  They found something that they could connect to, but he couldn't make that connection with someone who'll accept him totally, this left him wanting.

Jack wanted it all, but  there was no one in his life that was able to give it to him.

[LuvJackNasty]

Great post MG! Of course I'm all teary now.  :\'(

[babytammy7]

Jack wanted it all, but  there was no one in his life that was able to give it to him.

Oh my, MG, just beautiful, beautiful and sad, but I know you're so right.... :\'(  :\'( People were hooked on Jack, but the only person who made Jack feel complete and accepted was Ennis, but neither him was able to give Jack all what he wanted and NEEDED.

[aintfoolin]

Thanks for bringing up the parents issue MG, Tony, for I feel this is where  I feel his anger originates. His father, rejected his son, totally disregarded Jack's attempts to please him Apparently "run off" to deal with a cold hard world without his father never having taught him a thing. He must have felt very alone at times stuck out in the middle of nowhere. It seems that preceding his bouts of anger were feelings of that rejection as in the bear scene,  ( I luv him here!) Apparently he's feeling Ennis has maybe deserted him ?  sitting on the log , angry,sipping whiskey, obviosuly concerned but probably has called Ennis every name in the book at this point and then" where the hell you been? Frankly, I was reminded of a wife waiting for the late husband at the door with the rolling pin, but he melts  of corse when  he sees Ennis  injured and tells his story. I don't know who's idea it was to shoot the elk, but it was Jack refusing to eat one more bean....but I can only imagine the conversation preceding that ...well Ennis DID owe him dinner ,without beans. Anyway, getting back to his childhood rejection , he asks Ennis if his fam did right by him, recognizing something in Ennis that he saw in himself imo. He has fought his whole life to be accepted as he was, found that in Ennis for the most part, but yes MG, there was something about Jack that drew people to him though these people all seemed to want something from him he could',t give or fix.

Tony, I did watch the reunion scene to see if I saw any anger. I saw  it more as a *grateful passion "more than anything else.  A  smashmouth kiss in answer to Ennis's uncontrolled passion. sort of * Yes, we're still on after all this time, and it's why I came back* though he might have thought "you SOB, you held out on me after all this time" I just did'nt see it,   All Jack's hopes and dreams as he "redlined it" fulfilled.

[babytammy7]

Once again I love your post AF!!! Well I love this whole thread and everyone posts, and I can't wait to read Andrew and Thomas posts when they come here!!!   

[Tony]

     You're right, Aintfoolin, about anger not clearly visible in the reunion scene- was working from memory and have now reviewed it several
times.  I still see the anger, but more like a brief flash, again, conveying just what I'd thought:  you s.o.b., you held out on me- you loved me!
I also saw how under-rated Jake's performance was-he was given so little credit.  But in that scene, he managed 4, 5, maybe even 6 succeeding
facial expressions, including what you saw.  The anger flash, it's OK if nobody else sees it, as it was a 2-3 second flash, as I said, as Jake
unravelled a series of reactions, showing incredible talent as an actor. Naming the emotions, in order, would be a wild trip, there were so many.
   We do know, he wasn't expecting what really was so courageous and intense of a love, so clearly shown, by an Ennis we always try to say
was repressed, and unable to change, and unable to deal with his emotions.  That wasn't the Ennis we've been talking about.  Helluva scene,
and one helluva challenge to many of our assumptions. Especially the one of Jack, the emotional pursuer, Ennis, the statue of stone.  Not there.

[FlwrChild]

Wow, great thread.

Nothing new to add really. Just wanted to say I've enjoyed reading all your thoughts on this subject.

I liked this description by aintfoolin:

"But trying to figure him , I keep coming back to the control factor and why he almost always ends up in the meddle of someone else's trap. It's a wonder he turned out as well as he did, but he had issues.  It's all so simplistic to him. 2+2 makes 4, the light's green, let's go!. He drifted into relationships that where those around him already had agendas or personal issues of their own.  I see him being pulled in  so many  different directions , spreading himself very thin. It seems to be  one of his greatest assests, his open and caring personality trait that causes this vulnerability in him."

Yep.

I agree with this too. I think, like many people have said, that the anger he expressed in these moments cited was completely justified. Not to bash Ennis, as you've all said, because he was justified in a lot of his points as well. Nevertheless, I think there are some people who open their hearts enough to be vulnerable to the people they give it away to, and simply give without anger or resentment, even when they've been hurt. We all remember the look on Jack's face when he walks back to his truck after Ennis's divorce, and though the signs of wear and sadness on their relationship appear, we never see Jack acting beligerent or angry, except in the "Just thinking out loud" scene, which was, again, a provoked reaction, until the very end. I don't think Jack was holding in anger all those years, just hurt and sadness that they couldn't have the relationship he wanted for them. For all his bitching about little things in life, Jack was just a soul that was not about anger as an overriding force in his personality, imo.

Oops, looks like I had something to add after all.  Guess that's pretty much my view of Jack. Hope it made sense.

[lamusica]

Great posts, everyone!   You know, when I read a novel and the characters hurt each other, I always want to shout out:  Hey!  Just TALK to one another.  You can talk out the hurt, come to some sort of understanding and get the relationship back on track.  That's how I felt during the confrontation scene.  I just wanted Jack to grab Ennis, sit him down and talk to him -- try to explain why missing one meeting with Ennis was so painful to him.  Let Ennis know just how important he was to Jack. When Jack drove all that way to see Ennis after the divorce and Ennis turned him away, I wanted Jack to grab Ennis, shake him and tell him he was there for him. Well, that never happened.  We spend a lot of time talking about Ennis being the closed one, but Jack was never aboveboard, either, except with the wanting to live together.  He, for a hundred reasons, never told ENnis he loved him, either.  So, who's the one who is most closed off and hiding the most deep feelings inside?  I think it's a draw.

[manhattangirl]

It sounds like an good old fashion case of low self esteem, and Jack suffered from it in spades.   His father never thought much of him, he showed that by pissing on him, and from that moment he knew him and the old man would never be right.   

Jack himself like Ennis lived a double life, but not in the same way.  Jack's life was finding that acceptance, was grateful when he thought he found it, but hesitated to push for more than what was given to him,  I guess he just didn't want to get pissed on again.

But he lived his own balancing act for twenty years, existing in one world, wanting to live in another.   I can understand his anger at times with Ennis, his frustration, his loneliness  and  he waited, God, how he waited for Ennis.  Not wanting to do anything spook Ennis, living for the next meeting.

[HLJG]

I agree. 

Great posts everyone- everyone seems to be able to say it so concisely and I ramble on to get from point a to point b.

Agreed.  There was so much pent up emotion. Jack was an only child--a son--and his father humiliated him. He tried to make his father 'proud' by rodeoing (like the old man) did. he probably felt that he never measured up. He was a loose pebble, rolling along, and looking for his life. He worked to have a little money, but it wasn't enough to live on. He mentions the 'army getting him' as an alternative. When he returns the following summer and talks with Aguirre, he decides to start again--and moves to TX.

[manhattangirl]

Agreed.  There was so much pent up emotion. Jack was an only child--a son--and his father humiliated him. He tried to make his father 'proud' by rodeoing (like the old man) did. he probably felt that he never measured up. He was a loose pebble, rolling along, and looking for his life. He worked to have a little money, but it wasn't enough to live on. He mentions the 'army getting him' as an alternative. When he returns the following summer and talks with Aguirre, he decides to start again--and moves to TX.

Good point.  How do you measure someone's  resolve after going through privation, feeling hunger, just trying to live from day to day.  Jack never turned tail and run home,  and we wonder how he waited so long for Ennis?   

[aintfoolin]

 Thanks Baby Tammy, I'm glad we can all enjoy a discussuon about a man who touched us all  so deeply. Surely , as compelling a character as  Ennis was,  ( my  heart ) without Jack there would'nt be this Ennis. He's right up there with Ennis when it comes to sorting out the complicated make up of the man.

 I am taken by Tony's  recognition of Jack's emotions in the reunion scene. No better decribed as a "wild trip" indeed , A big thumbs up  to Jake G for this brilliant acting. We saw every emotion in the spectrum in his face. I also believe that Jack had Ennis pretty well figured out as far as actually wanting to be together back during the parting in Signal four years earlier. Yeah, Ennis had obligations to Alma to marry her , but Jack knew what the real deal was. Four years later he returns to the only person who makes him feel right.  and as I stated in another thread precedes the visit with a postcard with mountains, ( in case Ennis forgot) :* it's him. Ennis replies, You bet, exclamation point!  Imo he  just wanted to know that Ennis still felt as he did that day. That those experiences with him on Brokeback were still fresh memories.  He has also learned to figure Ennis by what he does, for the most part,  not so much what he says. There is a pattern.

 Then there is FlowrChild's beautiful decription of his vulnerabilities. He was very vulnerable, but only because he put his heart out there and took a chance . In the divorce scene I feel he turned his anger more onto himself than Ennis. I think he at least started to question his role in the the relationship at that point. Started to focus more on his own needs. Felt angry at his own desperation.Felt anger at the love that made him so vulnerable. It was deep.  This  was something  that made sense to him, Thanks to ol ' LD he can  now be free from  his sham marriage, Ennis is  finally free, it's logical to him,  that they can now be together right? Wrong. Why? Well, sorry.. even I was angry  FOR him at this point. Am I the only one who yelled at Ennis through the T.V. screen  here? But things were as they were, once again Jack has put his heart on the line and gets shattered,  Rejection once again. . Perhaps he got "mixed signals" from Ennis sending the postcard about the divorce. He was that vulnerable to their love. It shows.

Then,  lamusica ,dealing with the communication factor which to me , is the biggest downfall of the whole relationship. If  only Jack just could have verbally expressed to  Ennis what he was feeling and taken the lead there. Ennis is the one dragging his feet, but if Jack with his infinite charm could somehow work some "sweet talk" into Ennis's vocabulary, without chasing him away (his big fear) or just talk about feelings in general,  Jack had this gift of *easing* Ennis into opening up about himself. I know, it sounds like I'm putting the burden on Jack to satart a dialogue, but  Ennis was'nt gonna do it . Jack had to be the leader as always in these things.  But again things were as they were. Jack was'nt hearing any "I love yous" either and I'm certain he would've been glad to hear those words from Ennis, sure, he'd be walkin a fine line, but Ennis is  so vulnerable in a big way to Jack. He had a heart.  I very much understand lamusica's need to shake Ennis and  make him wake up and smell the coffee. Get beyond the "boys like you"  stage.   He will never know a greater love than this. 20 years is long time to wait to hear "I love you"/I need you...but  niether would say it out loud.

Finally MG, speaks of his self-esteem. Something, I feel he lost at that young age growing up on LF. This may be another trigger to his anger and frustration. . As a man,he  knew LD thought less of him, unworthy of his daughter ,and from day one moved in as  a major influence on his son. ,  felt Jack had no rights there, well in the Thanksgiving scene he found out differently.  Aguirre saw him unworthy as an employee, a ranch stiff, lazy and missing 42 sheep,  and his father saw him unworthy as a son, unwilling to accept him as the man he chose to be.  With Ennis he is an  equal, even sometimes a  nurturing teacher of Ennis ,and a true leader in  love. With Ennis, he feels worthy of being loved just for being Jack. Though he could'nt shoot, ride, cook etc... Ennis  needed him in his life and v/v. Jack knew he played a part in Ennis's happiness. his  "lil darlin". That had to make him feel good.  My 5 cents worth.  

[manhattangirl]

Finally MG, speaks of his self-esteem. Something, I feel he lost at that young age growing up on LF. This may be another trigger to his anger and frustration. . As a man,he  knew LD thought less of him, unworthy of his daughter ,and from day one moved in as  a major influence on his son. ,  felt Jack had no rights there, well in the Thanksgiving scene he found out differently.  Aguirre saw him unworthy as an employee, a ranch stiff, lazy and missing 42 sheep,  and his father saw him unworthy as a son, unwilling to accept him as the man he chose to be.  With Ennis he is an  equal, even sometimes a  nurturing teacher of Ennis ,and a true leader in  love. With Ennis, he feels worthy of being loved just for being Jack. Though he could'nt shoot, ride, cook etc... Ennis  needed him in his life and v/v. Jack knew he played a part in Ennis's happiness. his  "lil darlin". That had to make him feel good.  My 5 cents worth.  

Yet, there was a growing disatisfaction in him.  Like a horse,  he kicked, he had to.  No matter how much he loved Ennis and he did.  The years of waitin and wanting were wearing him down.  He waited through all of Ennis trials and tributlations, and now he said to him "what about me, what about us".   

[tpe]

First---This  is not a bash Jack thread niether do I place blame.  I only seek to explore  the root of his anger. Sometimes I feel it's justified, sometimes I don't. In his marriage ,LD, and Lureen appear to be controlling factors, in his relationship with Ennis, Ennis seems the controlling factor,( though he could'nt live without  Jack)  Could'nt stand Aguirre's rules, but needs him too. This had to be frustrating for him.

 Rejection from his father, himself very controlling and abusive. Could this be it? Jack's lack of control over his life?  An inability to control the direction of his own life? Was he contributing to his own frustration and anger by waiting so long for Ennis? or did he feel led on with *mixed signals* seeing only what he wanted to see? .
 I think he only wanted it all to make sense to him. When it did'nt, well just ask LD who dared go toe to toe with him at Thanksgiving. .  but was his anger really justified in the confrontation scenes?  The divorce scene?  He was no wimp, that's  for sure.  Was his anger focused just on Ennis's  rejection ,or  at all the people who controlled who he could be his  whole life?
 Yeah, Ennis could've helped in a big way by agreeing to ranching up, but that was'nt happening, but does'nt he  get some credit for being the sacrificing ,faithful , lover? He had his inner demons, yes,  so did Jack.  And last, did'nt Jack just grow to dread what being in  love with someone who could'nt commit to him, did to him and his pride despite  all his own sacrifices?, and  try  desperatly to quit Ennis but  could'nt?  I mean "one of them things " Ennis did'nt know about, and Jack was'nt tellin), was Randall ,waiting in the wings in Texas. Just sayin...../askin.

 Jack  brought alot of true  happiness to alot of people , but to himself, it proved elusive.  Was he just confused ? or an angry victim of fear?

I do think it was not only justified -- it was probably long overdue, given that Jack had a lot of frustration buried deep inside about his relatuionship with Ennis.  It was certainly unhealthy for him to have NOT to have showed such anger.

There is the old latin saying that I always attribute to Jack: habet et musca splenem et formica bilem ("even a fly has a spleen and an ant has bile.")  The question I think should be more of how he managed to keep it all inside of him for so long.  Ennis was so difficult to read, and being so unreadable would have taxed the patience of anybody else.

I think Jack was willing to abide with all other frustrations, had he been able to fulfill his dream with Ennis.  The fact that this always seemed out of reach didn't help with assuaging his inner anger.  The miracle is that how little of it he showed over the years.

[jackster]

. . .  Was his anger focused just on Ennis's rejection, or at all the people who controlled who he could be his  whole life?

Great reading everyone’s take on this. Anger, isn’t this one of the key elements AP uses in setting up the story? Ennis’s explosive version and Jack’s simmering version. Ennis who seems satisfied with most anything and Jack who seems satisfied with nothing. Ennis’s anger comes to a quick boil, and puts out the fire. Jack’s anger simmer’s until the pot’s gone dry. The SS doesn’t really tell us much about Jack, but just before the final confrontation we see through this window his life of dissatisfaction:

. . . . Jack slid his cold hand between Ennis's legs, said he was worried about his boy who was, no doubt about it, dyslexic or something, couldn't get anything right, fifteen years old and couldn't hardly read, he could see it though goddam Lureen wouldn't admit to it and pretended the kid was O.K., refused to get any bitchin’ kind a help about it. He didn't know what the f*** the answer was. Lureen had the money and called the shots.

"I used a want a boy for a kid," said Ennis, undoing buttons, "but just got little girls."

"I didn't want none a either kind," said Jack. "But fu**k all has worked the way I wanted. Nothin never come to my hand the right way." Without getting up he threw deadwood on the fire, the sparks flying up with their truths and lies, a few hot points of fire landing on their hands and faces, not for the first time, and they rolled down into the dirt. . . .

The next day they have a fight. Some weeks later Jack is killed (maybe). We know his dissatisfaction didn’t start with Ennis, or end with Ennis. But Ennis was certainly the biggest dissatisfaction. Maybe Jack just got tired of it all (and his own anger) and took some foolish chances he knew he shouldn’t have? Maybe he was so unhappy with “a goddam bitch of a unsatisfactory situation” he just didn’t care anymore. ??

[aintfoolin]

Yet, there was a growing disatisfaction in him.  Like a horse,  he kicked, he had to.  No matter how much he loved Ennis and he did.  The years of waitin and wanting were wearing him down.  He waited through all of Ennis trials and tributlations, and now he said to him "what about me, what about us".   

I feel the growing dissatisfaction stems from his growing acknowledgement that Ennis was not not going to budge from his position after so many years. Time was slipping away from him, and he wanted more. Felt Ennis owed him more, and imo he deserved more.

 Certainly the years of waiting had worn him down, and still he waited. He'd listened  patiently to Ennis's reasoning ,concerning Earl and Rich, gave Ennis up to Alma for 4 years, drove miles and miles for a few stolen moments whenever his man wanted.  Whatever danger or fears that may come he was willing to deal with . To him, this was not  just two guys meetin up every so often for fun and relaxation. It was a continuation of years and years of real true love for him in hopes that someday his proven love would be acknowledged and returned. Wanted his efforts matched . No doubt Jack tried to do his part. Ennis?... well he had his reasons... justified, but too much hidden., too much shame, too much fear.  Jack just wanted to love unconditionally and be loved in return. Not to much to ask imo . He'd earned it. Just a thought.