Topic: When Jack got mad...

[babytammy7]

I do think it was not only justified -- it was probably long overdue, given that Jack had a lot of frustration buried deep inside about his relatuionship with Ennis.  It was certainly unhealthy for him to have NOT to have showed such anger.
There is the old latin saying that I always attribute to Jack: habet et musca splenem et formica bilem ("even a fly has a spleen and an ant has bile.")  The question I think should be more of how he managed to keep it all inside of him for so long.  Ennis was so difficult to read, and being so unreadable would have taxed the patience of anybody else.

I think Jack was willing to abide with all other frustrations, had he been able to fulfill his dream with Ennis.  The fact that this always seemed out of reach didn't help with assuaging his inner anger.  The miracle is that how little of it he showed over the years.

That's sooooooooooooo true Thomas!!!

I feel the growing dissatisfaction stems from his growing acknowledgement that Ennis was not not going to budge from his position after so many years. Time was slipping away from him, and he wanted more. Felt Ennis owed him more, and imo he deserved more.
 Certainly the years of waiting had worn him down, and still he waited. He'd listened  patiently to Ennis's reasoning ,concerning Earl and Rich, gave Ennis up to Alma for 4 years, drove miles and miles for a few stolen moments whenever his man wanted.  Whatever danger or fears that may come he was willing to deal with . To him, this was not  just two guys meetin up every so often for fun and relaxation. It was a continuation of years and years of real true love for him in hopes that someday his proven love would be acknowledged and returned. Wanted his efforts matched . No doubt Jack tried to do his part. Ennis?... well he had his reasons... justified, but too much hidden., too much shame, too much fear.  Jack just wanted to love unconditionally and be loved in return. Not to much to ask imo . He'd earned it. Just a thought.

So well said AF!!! Amazing post!!! 

[tpe]

Thanks Tammy.

You highlighted appropriately that passage in AF's post:

Felt Ennis owed him more, and imo he deserved more.

It was a question of expectiations, no?  The root of Jack's anger in the final confrontation can be argued to arise from what I call the debt of love.  It is that delicate balance between give and take, and I think in the case of Jack at that instance, the balance has gone too far in one direction, in his estimation. 

[manhattangirl]

Thanks Tammy.

You highlighted appropriately that passage in AF's post:

Felt Ennis owed him more, and imo he deserved more.

It was a question of expectiations, no?  The root of Jack's anger in the final confrontation can be argued to arise from what I call the debt of love.  It is that delicate balance between give and take, and I think in the case of Jack at that instance, the balance has gone too far in one direction, in his estimation. 

Exactly, Jack went down that list:  The twenty years, keeping him on that short leash, wanting to punish him because Ennis thinks and knows he been with others.   Jack felt he made that payment in full, but not realizing until that moment what it costed Ennis. 

Am I close? 

[tpe]

Exactly, Jack went down that list:  The twenty years, keeping him on that short leash, wanting to punish him because Ennis thinks and knows he been with others.   Jack felt he made that payment in full, but not realizing until that moment what it costed Ennis. 

Am I close? 

I think so.  What you say in the above seems to imply something I had wanted to say before: that perhaps Jack felt that Ennis was playing "mental games" with him, instead of realizing how broken Ennis truly was deep inside.

[myprivatejack]

I think so.  What you say in the above seems to imply something I had wanted to say before: that perhaps Jack felt that Ennis was playing "mental games" with him, instead of realizing how broken Ennis truly was deep inside.

That's was maybe the main Jack's fault and that shows how he can be a little sellfish-who is not so in Love's affairs at the end?-;passing almost 10 years complaining himself for Ennis lack of commitment and almost cowardice towards their relationship-and I'm not saying he was not right...-.But not realising how difficult was Ennis role,always divided between his feelings and his fears,his love for Jack and his environment duties.And not realising either that his own role of asking for what he wished was difficult to stand;but the role of someone who wishes something maybe at the same level(if not more)but had to hide it and denying all the time when he feels like saying YES is even more difficult.
It's logical he burst in the confrontation scene,because he must feel very disappointed by giving so much while he received-at least as it seemed-so little...But maybe never had he thought WHY Ennis felt that way,the reason of all these denials and what there was beyond Ennis apparent conformism.
I've always thought,and I think I've said this before,that the main problem in their relationship was a terrible lack of communication.They were good friends,not only lovers,surely the only friend Ennis had ever got,it's true;but the good communication that made Ennis open himself the most in his life when they were in BBM,the one that made him speak more in two weeks than in a whole year and explaining his new friends the most private happenings...This communication was good as friends,but it didn't serve as lovers,mostly it was a disaster.This happenned often when the relationship between two persons changes from friendship to love,but in their case it was tragic,IMHO.

[lamusica]

MPJ, good point about the lack of communication being the main problem between the two guys.  If only they had talked out all their hurts and desires, but that was not to be.  Jack may have been the more open one, but, in reality, he wasn't much more open that Ennis.  He never told Ennis just how much he needed him on a regular basis.  He hinted at it, but, until the last confrontation, never said the words.  Meanwhile, Ennis made Jack feel lilke he was doing him a favor by taking off from work and going off with him.  After a while, this gets old.  I think Jack just began to feel like he was being takne advantage of ( maybe because Lureen felt that way and said it to him).  He saw himself as doing all the giving and Ennis just doing the taking.  Again, this could have been cleared up with a conversation -- one that never happened.

[myprivatejack]

MPJ, good point about the lack of communication being the main problem between the two guys.  If only they had talked out all their hurts and desires, but that was not to be.  Jack may have been the more open one, but, in reality, he wasn't much more open that Ennis.  He never told Ennis just how much he needed him on a regular basis.  He hinted at it, but, until the last confrontation, never said the words.  Meanwhile, Ennis made Jack feel lilke he was doing him a favor by taking off from work and going off with him.  After a while, this gets old.  I think Jack just began to feel like he was being takne advantage of ( maybe because Lureen felt that way and said it to him).  He saw himself as doing all the giving and Ennis just doing the taking.  Again, this could have been cleared up with a conversation -- one that never happened.

lamusica.Yes,Jack was far more open than Ennis,he spend 20 years demonstrating his feelings and what he wanted to fulfill them.But,in the end and going deeper inside him,he resulted almost as close as Ennis in what was really important:the WHY,the HOW and the WHEN.Really,spending half a life-time showing how much he loved or needed someone and also talking them loud in the end,when one must burst because one can't stand it anymore is not being very communicative-no matter with what kind of expressions you "disguise" it...-.But if Ennis made him feel like he was doing him a favour for the renouncements he did in order to be together,is because he wasn't able to express anything either;however,I think,now that I'm able to understand Ennis much better than some time ago,that his role wasn't easy either,as I've said before,don't you think?.He must leave jobs and other duties to be with his lover when his social status was not as well-to-do as Jack´s-as he says in the confrontation scene,where both of them are right in their own situation...-meanwhile he must fight against himself,more than against society and its intolerance.But,you're so right,with a simple conversation,a deep conversation between them,maybe a solution had been found much before.

[tpe]

That's was maybe the main Jack's fault and that shows how he can be a little sellfish-who is not so in Love's affairs at the end?-;passing almost 10 years complaining himself for Ennis lack of commitment and almost cowardice towards their relationship-and I'm not saying he was not right...-.But not realising how difficult was Ennis role,always divided between his feelings and his fears,his love for Jack and his environment duties.And not realising either that his own role of asking for what he wished was difficult to stand;but the role of someone who wishes something maybe at the same level(if not more)but had to hide it and denying all the time when he feels like saying YES is even more difficult.
It's logical he burst in the confrontation scene,because he must feel very disappointed by giving so much while he received-at least as it seemed-so little...But maybe never had he thought WHY Ennis felt that way,the reason of all these denials and what there was beyond Ennis apparent conformism.
I've always thought,and I think I've said this before,that the main problem in their relationship was a terrible lack of communication.They were good friends,not only lovers,surely the only friend Ennis had ever got,it's true;but the good communication that made Ennis open himself the most in his life when they were in BBM,the one that made him speak more in two weeks than in a whole year and explaining his new friends the most private happenings...This communication was good as friends,but it didn't serve as lovers,mostly it was a disaster.This happenned often when the relationship between two persons changes from friendship to love,but in their case it was tragic,IMHO.

To be fair to Jack, he did show remarkable patience in this regard, hanging on for nearly 20 years facing continuous rebuffs from Ennis.  IN a way, I think it would have been healthier had he lost it earlier than the last confrontation.  By the time it happened, it was probably too late.  Too much angst and disappointment accumulated over the years...

[tpe]

MPJ, good point about the lack of communication being the main problem between the two guys.  If only they had talked out all their hurts and desires, but that was not to be.  Jack may have been the more open one, but, in reality, he wasn't much more open that Ennis.  He never told Ennis just how much he needed him on a regular basis.  He hinted at it, but, until the last confrontation, never said the words.  Meanwhile, Ennis made Jack feel lilke he was doing him a favor by taking off from work and going off with him.  After a while, this gets old.  I think Jack just began to feel like he was being takne advantage of ( maybe because Lureen felt that way and said it to him).  He saw himself as doing all the giving and Ennis just doing the taking.  Again, this could have been cleared up with a conversation -- one that never happened.

Alas, it could have well been that talk between them was impossible, especially in the case of Ennis, where a slight provocation may have led to his withdrawing further into himself.  I do agree that perhaps Jack should have forced the issue at an earlier time, like he did in the final confrontation scene.  But I think he was motivated by his desire not to push Ennis into a corner.  It was reasonable for him to assume that this would work, because this was how he got Ennis to open up to him in the beginning -- by not being confrontational, and leaving a lot of things unsaid.

[myprivatejack]

To be fair to Jack, he did show remarkable patience in this regard, hanging on for nearly 20 years facing continuous rebuffs from Ennis.  IN a way, I think it would have been healthier had he lost it earlier than the last confrontation.  By the time it happened, it was probably too late.  Too much angst and disappointment accumulated over the years...

Alas, it could have well been that talk between them was impossible, especially in the case of Ennis, where a slight provocation may have led to his withdrawing further into himself.  I do agree that perhaps Jack should have forced the issue at an earlier time, like he did in the final confrontation scene.  But I think he was motivated by his desire not to push Ennis into a corner.  It was reasonable for him to assume that this would work, because this was how he got Ennis to open up to him in the beginning -- by not being confrontational, and leaving a lot of things unsaid.

I've always been fair to Jack;as a matter of fact,I've understood him better than Ennis during a lot of time... But it would be better not to be so patient with Ennis way of being and,at the same time,understand better his reasons,maybe for being understood in theirs.On the contrary,he was too patient and was managing the situation as well as he could; but,on the other hand, never understanding the inner motivations that push Ennis to behave like he did.A better balanced behaviour on Jack's side would have been more advisable,it's to say;pose the situation much before in a quiet,easy way,during an intimate conversation,after having thought very carefully in the "whys" that feared Ennis so much.Explode like a frustration's bomb after so many years of NOT TALKING ABOUT THEIR INNER WISHES AND FEARS is never a proper way of posing problems;they appear then in the worst way that is possible,in words,ways and purposes,IMO.Yes,you're right,it was how Jack thought it'd work,that's it,"not pushing Ennis into a corner"; and yes also,it was the way Ennis opened to him in the beginning.But,did this work in the same way in 1978,f.e.,than in 1963? I wonder.

[lamusica]

It sort of seems that the two men "danced" around each other all those years.  Jack didn't want to scare Ennis off, and Ennis couldn't reject his family and go off with Jack.  They both were caught in their own personalities.  Jack wanted so much, but knew pushing the issue would drive Ennis away.  Ennis only wanted to be with Jack but was afraid to buck society and actually go off with him to make a life.  Consequently, the build up of tension that constitutes the main conflict in the story.  Had they been different, what would we be discussing?  It is this wonderful difference between them that is so intriguing.  Why did they do what they did?  We have had a lot of fun trying to figure out this conundrom, no?  Great discussion, guys.

[welshwitch]

There's a line in "Gone With The Wind", novel or movie - would take to long to look it up now! - where Rhett Butler says to Scarlett, when she decides she does love him after all, "Even the most deathless love can wear out." I don't think his did and I don't think Jack's did either, but there must come a time when you've done all you can, not just once but over and over, and you get frustrated and want some sort of acknowledgement that your efforts and feelings aren't just being ignored. Maybe at that point anger is uncontrollable, or maybe it's something you let fly in a final desperate effort to make an impact.

[myprivatejack]

There's a line in "Gone With The Wind", novel or movie - would take to long to look it up now! - where Rhett Butler says to Scarlett, when she decides she does love him after all, "Even the most deathless love can wear out." I don't think his did and I don't think Jack's did either, but there must come a time when you've done all you can, not just once but over and over, and you get frustrated and want some sort of acknowledgement that your efforts and feelings aren't just being ignored. Maybe at that point anger is uncontrollable, or maybe it's something you let fly in a final desperate effort to make an impact.

I agree with you in that Jack could easily arrive to a point in which he felt he couldn't do anything else to change Ennis state of mind by pushing him to a commitment.Yes,he really wanted and looked for a proof that he hadn't given so much during so many years for nothing,or at least,for not as much as he was giving.But I keep on saying that he never pose the question of his wishes and hopes clearly before Ennis,what didn't mean a struggle,nor a difficult position for no one of them;but AN ANSWER in the end.I don't want to repite myself too much,but the lack of communication between them was really important;and it was important since the very moment they left BBM to any of the last scenes we see of both,in which-if you realise...-they didn't do anything else but arguing.And these argues were a clear proof of how frustrated they were,but also that the shouts always replace quiet and true conversations in the end,when communication is bad enough as to avoid them before it's too late,IMO.

[lamusica]

There's a line in "Gone With The Wind", novel or movie - would take to long to look it up now! - where Rhett Butler says to Scarlett, when she decides she does love him after all, "Even the most deathless love can wear out." I don't think his did and I don't think Jack's did either, but there must come a time when you've done all you can, not just once but over and over, and you get frustrated and want some sort of acknowledgement that your efforts and feelings aren't just being ignored. Maybe at that point anger is uncontrollable, or maybe it's something you let fly in a final desperate effort to make an impact.

I had forgotten those words of Rhett, but they ring true to me, and they certainly apply to the discussion at hand.

[lamusica]

I agree with you in that Jack could easily arrive to a point in which he felt he couldn't do anything else to change Ennis state of mind by pushing him to a commitment.Yes,he really wanted and looked for a proof that he hadn't given so much during so many years for nothing,or at least,for not as much as he was giving.But I keep on saying that he never pose the question of his wishes and hopes clearly before Ennis,what didn't mean a struggle,nor a difficult position for no one of them;but AN ANSWER in the end.I don't want to repite myself too much,but the lack of communication between them was really important;and it was important since the very moment they left BBM to any of the last scenes we see of both,in which-if you realise...-they didn't do anything else but arguing.And these argues were a clear proof of how frustrated they were,but also that the shouts always replace quiet and true conversations in the end,when communication is bad enough as to avoid them before it's too late,IMO.

I, too, think the lack of an all-out conversation caused a lot of misunderstandings and grief to our men.  As you stated, after the shouting, where was the gentle follow-up?  The natural next step to the arguement?  Well, we DO have to accept them as they were.  But it's hard to feel there was a much easier solution to all their frustration, but they never talked it all out.  That's one of the sad things about this story, to me.

[tpe]

I've always been fair to Jack;as a matter of fact,I've understood him better than Ennis during a lot of time... But it would be better not to be so patient with Ennis way of being and,at the same time,understand better his reasons,maybe for being understood in theirs.On the contrary,he was too patient and was managing the situation as well as he could; but,on the other hand, never understanding the inner motivations that push Ennis to behave like he did.A better balanced behaviour on Jack's side would have been more advisable,it's to say;pose the situation much before in a quiet,easy way,during an intimate conversation,after having thought very carefully in the "whys" that feared Ennis so much.Explode like a frustration's bomb after so many years of NOT TALKING ABOUT THEIR INNER WISHES AND FEARS is never a proper way of posing problems;they appear then in the worst way that is possible,in words,ways and purposes,IMO.Yes,you're right,it was how Jack thought it'd work,that's it,"not pushing Ennis into a corner"; and yes also,it was the way Ennis opened to him in the beginning.But,did this work in the same way in 1978,f.e.,than in 1963? I wonder.

It's the classic example of the harm done by keeping one's feelings pent up withim oneself, no?  Quarrels and confrontations are necessary for any relationshop to flourish.  And although I think they did have their smaller quarrels and confrontations, I think they didn't go the distance.  Observe for example the "fight" by the banks of the stream, where Jack simply walks away.    Could it have been better had he confronted Ennis about his cynicism?  Perhaps it would have resulted in a better understanding of each other had he done so, instead of turning away...

[tpe]

It sort of seems that the two men "danced" around each other all those years.  Jack didn't want to scare Ennis off, and Ennis couldn't reject his family and go off with Jack.  They both were caught in their own personalities.  Jack wanted so much, but knew pushing the issue would drive Ennis away.  Ennis only wanted to be with Jack but was afraid to buck society and actually go off with him to make a life.  Consequently, the build up of tension that constitutes the main conflict in the story.  Had they been different, what would we be discussing?  It is this wonderful difference between them that is so intriguing.  Why did they do what they did?  We have had a lot of fun trying to figure out this conundrom, no?  Great discussion, guys.

This is the perfect metaphor.  I was trying to find the right imagery to discuss their inability to engage more deeply and meaningfully, even if it meant huting the other.    "Dance" is indeed a very apt way to describe this.

[tpe]

There's a line in "Gone With The Wind", novel or movie - would take to long to look it up now! - where Rhett Butler says to Scarlett, when she decides she does love him after all, "Even the most deathless love can wear out." I don't think his did and I don't think Jack's did either, but there must come a time when you've done all you can, not just once but over and over, and you get frustrated and want some sort of acknowledgement that your efforts and feelings aren't just being ignored. Maybe at that point anger is uncontrollable, or maybe it's something you let fly in a final desperate effort to make an impact.

I do think Jack's ndoing was allowing the frustration to build up over they years, when he could have tried to bring it out in the open much sooner.  Nothing kills love better than a gnawing feeling of inevitability...  Maybe Jack should have taken more risks, even if he sensed that Ennis was unwilling to do so, and even if he did get hurt in the process.

The only scene where a confrontation would have proven difficult was the post-divorce meeting.  Jack must have felt helpless indeed, because he couldn't push things the way he wanted in front of Ennis's children.  I really felt for him in that scene.  He was truly helpless in the face of circumstances, and was hurt deeply accordingly.

[myprivatejack]

I do think Jack's ndoing was allowing the frustration to build up over they years, when he could have tried to bring it out in the open much sooner.  Nothing kills love better than a gnawing feeling of inevitability...  Maybe Jack should have taken more risks, even if he sensed that Ennis was unwilling to do so, and even if he did get hurt in the process.

The only scene where a confrontation would have proven difficult was the post-divorce meeting.  Jack must have felt helpless indeed, because he couldn't push things the way he wanted in front of Ennis's children.  I really felt for him in that scene.  He was truly helpless in the face of circumstances, and was hurt deeply accordingly.

Yes,this is what I mean before:to cause a greater sorrow to avoid one littler and maybe necessary much before,for fear to the consequences...Well,the post-divorce meeting,even if painful about Jack,was a little risky and,even,selfish by Jack's part; because he knew it'd be difficult for Ennis to make a decision precisely in this delicate moment of his life-it´s not so easy say "Now I'm free,let's go¡"-.Because he hadn't said him anything about his journey to met themselves,so he didn't know in which circunstamces he'd find his partner.Because he only thought in his "sweet life" project but not in anything or anybody else,not even in Ennis...Well,I'm not clapping Ennis for his stupid way of rejecting Jack ;mainly I'd clap, but in his face...But I'm trying to put myself in each one's shoes...

[tpe]

Yes,this is what I mean before:to cause a greater sorrow to avoid one littler and maybe necessary much before,for fear to the consequences...Well,the post-divorce meeting,even if painful about Jack,was a little risky and,even,selfish by Jack's part; because he knew it'd be difficult for Ennis to make a decision precisely in this delicate moment of his life-it´s not so easy say "Now I'm free,let's go¡"-.Because he hadn't said him anything about his journey to met themselves,so he didn't know in which circunstamces he'd find his partner.Because he only thought in his "sweet life" project but not in anything or anybody else,not even in Ennis...Well,I'm not clapping Ennis for his stupid way of rejecting Jack ;mainly I'd clap, but in his face...But I'm trying to put myself in each one's shoes...

I think everyone would agree that it was more typical for Jack to back off or at least to dissemble his true feelings, no?   This is alway typical of persons who are prone to explode once they are pushed over the edge.  What is also typical is the sheer unpredictability on when things can be said to have gone too far for the said individual. 

Looking back at the last confrontation, one can even argue that the kernel of the dispute was not exactly atypical or extraordinary.  How it became a flood from the initial trickle is interesting in and of itself.  One is in no doubt that they have had numerous lovers' quarrels in the past, so one wonders whether or not Ennis had ever pushed back meeting dates with Jack prior to this and waht was Jack's previous reactions.

My suspicion is that Jack probably acquiesed too easily in prior instances, although this is pure speculation on my part.  But one would like to think that Jack was not a drama queen of sorts, blowing things out of proportion, given the slightest excuse.  The best way to explain the last confrontation, IMO, is that there have been similar incidents in the past, and Jack's acquiescence probably only served to increase the pressure of pent-up feelings buuilding inside of him.

[aintfoolin]

I think everyone would agree that it was more typical for Jack to back off or at least to dissemble his true feelings, no?   This is alway typical of persons who are prone to explode once they are pushed over the edge.  What is also typical is the sheer unpredictability on when things can be said to have gone too far for the said individual. 

Looking back at the last confrontation, one can even argue that the kernel of the dispute was not exactly atypical or extraordinary.  How it became a flood from the initial trickle is interesting in and of itself.  One is in no doubt that they have had numerous lovers' quarrels in the past, so one wonders whether or not Ennis had ever pushed back meeting dates with Jack prior to this and waht was Jack's previous reactions.

My suspicion is that Jack probably acquiesed too easily in prior instances, although this is pure speculation on my part.  But one would like to think that Jack was not a drama queen of sorts, blowing things out of proportion, given the slightest excuse.  The best way to explain the last confrontation, IMO, is that there have been similar incidents in the past, and Jack's acquiescence probably only served to increase the pressure of pent-up feelings buuilding inside of him.

 And Jack may have also been very upset with himself for not putting his foot down sooner. Now it's all Ennis's fault for making him feel weak. It's LD all over again at this point. It's been Ennis's way for so long that he now feels cornered by his own reluctance to assert himself sooner. Ennis is caught off guard by Jack's  harshness, a side of Jack he has never really seen. What does Jack have to show for his years of not rocking the boat? a sham marriage, a half life of  lonliness, rejection, and Randall, a "fill in" for what he feels should be Ennis.

" Frankly by dear, I don't give a damn" Rhett Butler's swan song to Scarlett o' Hara, after she has rejected his love over and over. Both she and Ennis learned valuable lessons  in love ,that fate can prove very ironic , in different ways. Jack died, Rhett left, and both of whom were left behind had deep regrets, after they had lost it all,  but had no one to blame but themselves.

[welshwitch]

Maybe dancing is a good metaphor - I sometimes see them as a proton (Ennis)  and an electron (Jack), the latter circling the former and for a long time without the energy to be forced out of his orbit but repulsed by the positive charge of the proton and so unable to spiral in to the center either. My grasp on the physics is probably limited, but it seems to me like that their emotions are a force of nature.

[aintfoolin]

 It's not like Jack did'nt have a point. He was as human as one gets.  Obviously, this is something that had nagged at him for a while. He senses a difference in Ennis  not"coming away" as easily as before. He feels that time is slipping away though it's  time that's of the essence. Tired of their love life being played out secretly  in the cold winds of the  mountains. I feel he had concluded that even if Ennis had no obstacles in his way, that Ennis  just did'nt want the sweet life with him. A big rejection from Ennis he's had to accept though he's still trying.   He informs Ennis that he could hardly stand being apart , searching for a response to his effort.
 Jack had invested so much time hoping that his words and actions would be enough to show Ennis the depth of his love. But Ennis had it all compartmentalized in his mind. Time for him and Jack was time for him and Jack, but it must always end till next meeting , otherwise he would be showing Jack that he needed him, craved him even. Keep Jack on a short leash.  He could not have Jack thinkin that he was "a boy like him".

The  statement "boys like you",  was a statement that spoke of a seperation in how they viewed there sexual relationship as well as Ennis still seeing himself  somehow different from Jack. Jack heard that. Felt that Ennis was a little too smug and too personal.  Pure, natural ,human emotion. If it was an ef'n problem  for Ennis about Mexico, Jack really did'nt care. I mean comon, what was Ennis saying? That Jack was somehow weaker? had the lesser control? "queer" perhaps? or whatever he percieved that to mean?   actually questioning Jack's masculinity? It's open for speculation, but what ever he meant. it's what finally pushed Jack over the edge. Convinced  that this may be the last time he had  to tell Ennis how he felt, he  Opens up with both barrels, something he had always feared doing in the past, but by now, Ennis owed him a response to his effort.

 I think within seconds  he prepared himself as much as he could to let go if it ever happened..,his words ,almost a  redemption for his  pent up sacrifices all those years. The only weapon he had . Those words almost too  critically honest for Ennis's  denying ears to hear, but how far did he have to push Ennis to  get an honest  response?   It's not like Jack thought Ennis would enjoy what he had to say in any way shape or form, quite the opposite. Ennis has struck a nerve big time,  I just feel  Jack felt Ennis should have known what was at stake as an active partner all those years, and acted accordingly to what they both knew. That Jack needed to see and  feel  that he was'nt the only one human, and vulnerable to this love. .  A dance is a great metaphor  WW ,and a force of nature indeed... 5 cents Thanx.

[jackster]

It occurs to me in reading about Jack getting’ mad, and the wonderful analysis of it here, that part of what got Jack so mad was simply the way in which Ennis broke this news to him, at the last minute standing by the truck. “Christ Ennis, you had a fu**in’ week to say some little word about this”. Sure, he’s disappointed that they can’t meet, but I wonder if he isn’t more disappointed that their relationship hasn’t evolved so that Ennis feels more comfortable, or understands how to share events in his life with him. Maybe this is what speaks more about their relationship, or at least Ennis’s own frozen emotional growth.

Ennis didn’t want to tell Jack, he clearly felt bad about it, especially after Jack’s “Sometimes I miss you so much . . ” remark. So he just procrastinated for the whole week not wanting to spoil things, but knowing it will. How much different it woulda’ been if Ennis, some evening when they were snuggled up in the tent (like the shot in the movie), had said somethin’ like “Jack, I had to promise Stoutamire I’d be there in August in order to get this time off with you, I won’t be able to get off again until November, my jobs’ on the line” I have to wonder what Jack’s reaction would have been. Can’t help but think they would have been able to work out something else.

Of course, that wouldn’t of been Ennis and woulda’ been a much different story.

[tpe]

And Jack may have also been very upset with himself for not putting his foot down sooner. Now it's all Ennis's fault for making him feel weak. It's LD all over again at this point. It's been Ennis's way for so long that he now feels cornered by his own reluctance to assert himself sooner. Ennis is caught off guard by Jack's  harshness, a side of Jack he has never really seen. What does Jack have to show for his years of not rocking the boat? a sham marriage, a half life of  lonliness, rejection, and Randall, a "fill in" for what he feels should be Ennis.

" Frankly by dear, I don't give a damn" Rhett Butler's swan song to Scarlett o' Hara, after she has rejected his love over and over. Both she and Ennis learned valuable lessons  in love ,that fate can prove very ironic , in different ways. Jack died, Rhett left, and both of whom were left behind had deep regrets, after they had lost it all,  but had no one to blame but themselves.

I do think you bring up a good point here, aintfoolin: that part of Jack's anger was directed at himself.  I do think he was practically speachless for a short moment after Ennis announced that he would not be able to make it in August -- I sensed some disbelief, some frustration, and yes, some anger at himself as well as at Ennis.  IMO, he did feel that he was trapped into a corner -- not having a choice but to accept the latest "rejection".

[tpe]

Maybe dancing is a good metaphor - I sometimes see them as a proton (Ennis)  and an electron (Jack), the latter circling the former and for a long time without the energy to be forced out of his orbit but repulsed by the positive charge of the proton and so unable to spiral in to the center either. My grasp on the physics is probably limited, but it seems to me like that their emotions are a force of nature.

I do think that Jack probably felt that too much of his happiness revolved around Ennis -- this was both a strength and a weakness to him, I suppose...

[tpe]

It occurs to me in reading about Jack getting’ mad, and the wonderful analysis of it here, that part of what got Jack so mad was simply the way in which Ennis broke this news to him, at the last minute standing by the truck. “Christ Ennis, you had a fu**in’ week to say some little word about this”. Sure, he’s disappointed that they can’t meet, but I wonder if he isn’t more disappointed that their relationship hasn’t evolved so that Ennis feels more comfortable, or understands how to share events in his life with him. Maybe this is what speaks more about their relationship, or at least Ennis’s own frozen emotional growth.

Ennis didn’t want to tell Jack, he clearly felt bad about it, especially after Jack’s “Sometimes I miss you so much . . ” remark. So he just procrastinated for the whole week not wanting to spoil things, but knowing it will. How much different it woulda’ been if Ennis, some evening when they were snuggled up in the tent (like the shot in the movie), had said somethin’ like “Jack, I had to promise Stoutamire I’d be there in August in order to get this time off with you, I won’t be able to get off again until November, my jobs’ on the line” I have to wonder what Jack’s reaction would have been. Can’t help but think they would have been able to work out something else.

Of course, that wouldn’t of been Ennis and woulda’ been a much different story.

Interesting, jackster.

I somehow felt that Jack maybe thought Ennis was intentionally trying not to meet up in August -- that Ennis over the years have preferred to see less and less of Jack.  I think this suspicion explains a great deal Jack's behavior in the last confrontation.  But I do agree with you that Jack must have felt particularly frustrated that he was unable to reassure Ennis over the years about the "rightness" of their relationship. 

Jack's insecurity about Ennis wanting to go on touches on what you said -- his feeling that Ennis had become even less and less comfortable (an not just maintaining the status quo) over the years, and that he was unable to do anything about it. 

[lamusica]

I always felt that Ennis delayed in telling Jack he couldn't come in August because he knew how Jack would react -- with anger.  This leads me to believe that Jack had shown his impatience and anger on other occasions with Ennis.  There's just so much that went on between the two that we don't know.  Ennis was just trying to keep Jack in a good mood as long as he could.  Simplistic, I know, but that's how I read it.

[Matt Nasty]

jack only got angry when it was justified and his anger was more in realiation i think eenis was more the angry one but neither of them were compleatly anger filled

[aintfoolin]

It occurs to me in reading about Jack getting’ mad, and the wonderful analysis of it here, that part of what got Jack so mad was simply the way in which Ennis broke this news to him, at the last minute standing by the truck. “Christ Ennis, you had a fu**in’ week to say some little word about this”. Sure, he’s disappointed that they can’t meet, but I wonder if he isn’t more disappointed that their relationship hasn’t evolved so that Ennis feels more comfortable, or understands how to share events in his life with him. Maybe this is what speaks more about their relationship, or at least Ennis’s own frozen emotional growth.

Ennis didn’t want to tell Jack, he clearly felt bad about it, especially after Jack’s “Sometimes I miss you so much . . ” remark. So he just procrastinated for the whole week not wanting to spoil things, but knowing it will. How much different it woulda’ been if Ennis, some evening when they were snuggled up in the tent (like the shot in the movie), had said somethin’ like “Jack, I had to promise Stoutamire I’d be there in August in order to get this time off with you, I won’t be able to get off again until November, my jobs’ on the line” I have to wonder what Jack’s reaction would have been. Can’t help but think they would have been able to work out something else.

Of course, that wouldn’t of been Ennis and woulda’ been a much different story.

 I agree with this, Ennis waited till the last minute to spring this little tidbit of news on Jack, when he could have done so much sooner. I feel it was done for two reasons.

1. Ennis knew that Jack was gonna be mad about it and did'nt want to spoil or end the trip before the week passed prolonging the inevitable..

 2. He knew that this would be the last meeting for a long while and simply wanted to savor every moment he had with Jack. Call him selfish maybe, but better to spend a week with a happy unasumming  Jack, than a pissed off depressed  one.  Also Jack may have thought that he had lost a bit of control over the matter,  robbed of his right to assert his feelings about it sooner, felt manipulated  by Ennis once again.