Author Topic: Surreptitious Glances  (Read 121144 times)

Offline tpe

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Re: Surreptitious Glances
« Reply #60 on: Sep 02, 2008, 08:03 AM »
I looked up surreptitiousin the dictionary:  It means clandestine!  And nothing gets more clandestine than when Ennis is "starkers" and Jack is peeling the potato!  Rest assured that Jack can see Ennis just fine using his peripheral vision!  Every slosh of the washcloth is high-altitude high-definition for Jack the whole time Ennis is "warshing everything he can reach" (Annie Proulx). ::)

Yes, nothing can be more surreptitious than that.  You can clearly tell that Jack was battling himself to NOT look at Ennis at that moment.  It was wonderful to see.


Offline smartestsonia

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Re: Surreptitious Glances
« Reply #61 on: Sep 21, 2008, 02:40 AM »
And full with desire,even if Ennis didn't realise it,or didn't want to realise it... :c)
he realized it but at the same time realized ot for a second and tried to forget it ..its one of those moments when one knows what one wants or what one feels but is too scared to acknowedge it...thats exactly what happened during that glance....

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Surreptitious Glances
« Reply #62 on: Sep 22, 2008, 11:01 AM »
he realized it but at the same time realized ot for a second and tried to forget it ..its one of those moments when one knows what one wants or what one feels but is too scared to acknowedge it...thats exactly what happened during that glance....

Yes,I agree,Sonia. ^f^ But,isn't it a way to not wanting to realise something that scares us as much as we wish it?.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline smartestsonia

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Re: Surreptitious Glances
« Reply #63 on: Sep 23, 2008, 02:07 AM »
Yes,I agree,Sonia. ^f^ But,isn't it a way to not wanting to realise something that scares us as much as we wish it?.
when we r too scared of something to be true we just live in denial that it is..probably acknowleding it will either make us feel really low or horrible or uncoemotional,,although unsconsiously we do wish it....thats exactly what happened...although a small part of Ennis knew it ..very small part...it was too small to acknowledge that time..though it was there...

manhattangirl

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Re: Surreptitious Glances
« Reply #64 on: Sep 23, 2008, 06:22 AM »
I liked the opening scene of the film.  Everything was laid out right there in those few minutes before a word was spoken.  Those glances tells us about each man.  Ennis reluctance, Jack boldness.

We see the personalities of each.  Jack animated, and Ennis still and quiet.

Ennis tries to resist even looking at Jack, but can't help himself, he seeks glances at him, and Jack senses this resistance, and but is careful in his approach to him.   Jack steps up to the plate and introduces himself, only after they leave the trailer, only after it made sense that the two have to speak. 

It's like the FNIT, it's like SNIT, it's like the reunion, its like the final confrontation.  It's Jack that keeps  this  relationship going from its beginning to the final confrontation.   Jack keeps it alive.

If was left up to Ennis, what would have happen? 

Just a thought.


« Last Edit: Sep 23, 2008, 06:43 AM by manhattangirl »

Offline tpe

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Re: Surreptitious Glances
« Reply #65 on: Sep 23, 2008, 07:02 AM »
I liked the opening scene of the film.  Everything was laid out right there in those few minutes before a word was spoken.  Those glances tells us about each man.  Ennis reluctance, Jack boldness.

We see the personalities of each.  Jack animated, and Ennis still and quiet.


Ennis tries to resist even looking at Jack, but can't help himself, he seeks glances at him, and Jack senses this resistance, and but is careful in his approach to him.   Jack steps up to the plate and introduces himself, only after they leave the trailer, only after it made sense that the two have to speak. 

It's like the FNIT, it's like SNIT, it's like the reunion, its like the final confrontation.  It's Jack that keeps  this  relationship going from its beginning to the final confrontation.   Jack keeps it alive.

If was left up to Ennis, what would have happen? 

Just a thought.

Excellent analysis, MG!  Yes, I think we see the germ of the relationship in that opening scenes, and it forshadows much of what the relationship will be about.

If left to Ennis, I doubt that it would have gotten very far.  But it was this element of enigma that clearly spurred Jack to seek Ennis out...


Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Surreptitious Glances
« Reply #66 on: Sep 23, 2008, 01:51 PM »
You have cached the exact way of being of both,MG,my congratulations ¡  :clap: I really think also that Jack is the motor of their relationship,who makes it begin,develop itself and maintain itself during all this time.Even he's who seems to make,or want to make,an end or an apart in it.I have my doubts about how far they'd arrived letting all in Ennis hands; but probably it would have been a life full of regrets about what can he have done and what he didn't do in the end...
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline smartestsonia

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Re: Surreptitious Glances
« Reply #67 on: Sep 24, 2008, 06:17 AM »
I liked the opening scene of the film.  Everything was laid out right there in those few minutes before a word was spoken.  Those glances tells us about each man.  Ennis reluctance, Jack boldness.

We see the personalities of each.  Jack animated, and Ennis still and quiet.

Ennis tries to resist even looking at Jack, but can't help himself, he seeks glances at him, and Jack senses this resistance, and but is careful in his approach to him.   Jack steps up to the plate and introduces himself, only after they leave the trailer, only after it made sense that the two have to speak. 

It's like the FNIT, it's like SNIT, it's like the reunion, its like the final confrontation.  It's Jack that keeps  this  relationship going from its beginning to the final confrontation.   Jack keeps it alive.

If was left up to Ennis, what would have happen? 

Just a thought.




Thats true...as u say those glances give us a good picture of how they both r...its wonderful as to how u have mentioned the screenplay in your own words :clap:

I feel that Jack did take alot of intiative in the relationship ....If Ennis was somewhat like that also then I think the relationship would have had less problems and hurts and the final confronataion would not have been the way it was...

Offline rimasworld

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Re: Surreptitious Glances
« Reply #68 on: Sep 24, 2008, 12:32 PM »
Thats true...as u say those glances give us a good picture of how they both r...its wonderful as to how u have mentioned the screenplay in your own words :clap:

I feel that Jack did take alot of intiative in the relationship ....If Ennis was somewhat like that also then I think the relationship would have had less problems and hurts and the final confronataion would not have been the way it was...

This is  *o) but I was wondering today  &*& if Jack had taken more iniative after Ennis' divorce and left Lureen and moved closer to Ennis not in the same town but at least back to Wyoming taking old man Newsome's money he offered for Jack to get lost and that way the two could have seen each other more often. This would have given Jack more opportunity to work on Ennis and maybe get him to understand more of what Jack wanted for them. Just a thought but I feel like both men let each other down in different ways in the relationship that really hurt their chances.

Offline smartestsonia

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Re: Surreptitious Glances
« Reply #69 on: Oct 07, 2008, 07:07 AM »
This is  *o) but I was wondering today  &*& if Jack had taken more iniative after Ennis' divorce and left Lureen and moved closer to Ennis not in the same town but at least back to Wyoming taking old man Newsome's money he offered for Jack to get lost and that way the two could have seen each other more often. This would have given Jack more opportunity to work on Ennis and maybe get him to understand more of what Jack wanted for them. Just a thought but I feel like both men let each other down in different ways in the relationship that really hurt their chances.

Well that’s a good thought…it would have made sense for Jack to move closer than Ennis..Ennis was too scared of living together though …so I don’t think that Ennis would have ever lived with him… although if Jack would have shifted closer to where Ennis lived then they would have met more often and the situation must have been better to handle then…and it would have been less painful for them….well actually we all have our own interpretations and amendments in our minds to make the situation better as it breaks our hearts to see how much pain they go through
 :( :\'(

Offline stephenZ

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Re: Surreptitious Glances
« Reply #70 on: Oct 07, 2008, 09:32 PM »
I want to say, I think that if Jack had moved closer to Ennis I really don't think Ennis would have had much of a choice. i think that is love for Jack was growing every day. That showed at the end of the movie, do you think Ennis went on living alone or kept is life in order. I personally don't think he ever remarried. I DO NOT think he had another male lover either. I think his love for Jack was to overwhelming. Just a thought.

Thanks

StephenZ

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Re: Surreptitious Glances
« Reply #71 on: Oct 07, 2008, 09:39 PM »
I want to say, I think that if Jack had moved closer to Ennis I really don't think Ennis would have had much of a choice. i think that is love for Jack was growing every day. That showed at the end of the movie, do you think Ennis went on living alone or kept is life in order. I personally don't think he ever remarried. I DO NOT think he had another male lover either. I think his love for Jack was to overwhelming. Just a thought.

Thanks

StephenZ

That's an interesting thought, Stephen.  The question is not "You ain't never found someone else to marry?" I don't think anyone asked the question, "Why didn't Jack divorce Lureen and move closer to Riverton?"

I agree with you that Jack grew to love Ennis more and more each and every day. That's true love. And I agree that Ennis never thought of having another male lover. That's also true love.

I don't know why Jack never divorced Lureen and moved to Riverton, or at least Lightening Flats, waiting for Ennis. I really don't know. Perhaps one of Jack's people would have an insight into this. I am Ennis' cowboy.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline stephenZ

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Re: Surreptitious Glances
« Reply #72 on: Oct 07, 2008, 09:46 PM »
Lancecowboy, are you following me?? LOL

I too don't understand why Jack wouldn't move closer. But sometimes we don't do what we should. I know in my own life I have made alot mistakes and regreted them later. I think that is what the last scene in the movie is all about, the regrets.


StephenZ

Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Surreptitious Glances
« Reply #73 on: Oct 07, 2008, 10:03 PM »
I did wonder that at one time, myself. My take on why Jack didn't move closer was that he and Lureen had what I would call a friendly relationship- not sure how else to describe it- maybe bearable? He was comfortable? At least until the later years. I can't find the word I'm looking for.  I think the only way he was going to leave was if he had that sweet life-I think it'd have been even more painful for him to be even closer and not have it.

That's an interesting thought, Stephen.  The question is not "You ain't never found someone else to marry?" I don't think anyone asked the question, "Why didn't Jack divorce Lureen and move closer to Riverton?"


I think there was a topic on that. I'll see if I can find it.  :)

ETA: Can't find it- I remember having a convo on it but it could have been under another topic and there are way to many to sift through  ;D
« Last Edit: Oct 07, 2008, 10:17 PM by LuvJackNasty »
“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Surreptitious Glances
« Reply #74 on: Oct 07, 2008, 10:16 PM »
Lancecowboy, are you following me?? LOL

I too don't understand why Jack wouldn't move closer. But sometimes we don't do what we should. I know in my own life I have made alot mistakes and regreted them later. I think that is what the last scene in the movie is all about, the regrets.


StephenZ
;D No worries, StephenZ, I ain't no stalker. I usually click on the two links at the top:
Show unread posts since last visit.
Show new replies to your posts.
And work my way from most recent to the last time I login.

It saves time. And you will find that I am usually stuck on the impact and emotionally heavy threads.

I think most of my posts have been in these categories. Some other people move on to fan fiction, or lighter topics. But I just cannot seem to shake the impact Brokeback Mountain has on me. So please excuse me if I seem to be responding to each and every of your posts. It's because I love this movie so.

As for Jack's motivation, I really have no clue. It occurs to me, now that I think about it more, that perhaps, with Ennis pushing him away, keeping him at a distance so to speak, Jack did not want to trigger another paranoid episode like the scene after the divorce. What would the scene be, after Jack moved to say, Lightning Flats.

Jack: Ennis, I divorced Lureen, and moved back in with my folks in Lightning Flats. We can meet more often if you want. It's only six hours each way. We can have our weekends together. Wouldn't that be great?

Ennis: Jack, I don't know. I get the kids only once a month, and then the other weekends are always in the ranch. You know calfing season is just around the corner, and the roundup is next month, so I will be gone all the time....I hope you didn't divorce Lureen and leave Bobby on my account...

 :\'( :\'( :\'(

Yeah, the last scene is all about Ennis finding out the depth of Jack's love, and regretting every push he made, the miss opportunities when he didn't pull Jack closer when he could.

« Last Edit: Oct 08, 2008, 09:35 AM by lancecowboy »
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline chameau

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Re: Surreptitious Glances
« Reply #75 on: Oct 07, 2008, 10:19 PM »
I did wonder that at one time, myself. My take on why Jack didn't move closer was that he and Lureen had what I would call a friendly relationship- not sure how else to describe it- maybe bearable? He was comfortable? At least until the later years. I can't find the word I'm looking for.  I think the only way he was going to leave was if he had that sweet life-I think it'd have been even more painful for him to be even closer and not have it.

I think there was a topic on that. I'll see if I can find it.  :)

ETA: Can't find it- I remember having a convo on it but it could have been under another topic and there are way to many to sift through  ;D

This might be the topic you're looking for

http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=13127.0
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Offline jackster

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Re: Surreptitious Glances
« Reply #76 on: Oct 08, 2008, 04:00 AM »
Hey guys, good question, and I think Luv's hit it pretty close. Here’s a take on why he never moved closer. Just some morsels from the SS, no real indication but just a feelin’.

Annie’s decript of Jack:

He was infatuated with the rodeo life and fastened his belt with a minor bull riding buckle, but his boots were worn to the quick, holed beyond repair, and he was crazy to be somewhere, anywhere, else than Lightning Flat.

And later the reunion in the motel, in reply to Ennis’s question about whut other fella’s do when they fall in love:

"It don't happen in Wyomin’ and if it does I don't know what they do, maybe go to Denver," said Jack, sitting up, turning away from him, "and I don't give a flyin f***.

Just a hint here, but it seems Jack had his own views a Wyomin’. Even though it seems he’d a been happy to move back for the cow n’ calf operation, especially as he even told his old man such. But it seems he needed the assurance of real companionship in order to do it. Bein’ there an’ bein’ alone in a single bed, even though it meant bein’ closer to Ennis wasn’t gonna’ be enough. Just some ideas.
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Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Surreptitious Glances
« Reply #77 on: Oct 08, 2008, 09:39 AM »
Thanks, Jackster. That's great reading and quoting. I think you got it right on the money.

I forgot about that line...and also the line about Jack's window looking out into the desolate plains. Yup, Jack hated the old place and John Twist. If it weren't for Ma, he'd never go back.

Yup, it's enough to drive a man to drink. Poor Jack.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Surreptitious Glances
« Reply #78 on: Oct 08, 2008, 09:57 AM »
Ok, I’ll take a deep breath and dive in here with my spin on why Jack didn’t leave Lureen and move closer to Ennis (and even try to get back on topic before I‘m done :*().

First, I’m not at all sure that Ennis would have responded well to such a move. He had a very low startle point, as evidenced by his reaction when Jack showed up after the divorce from Alma. He had a certain amount of paranoia about what people in town might be thinking of him (the “Do you ever get the feeling?” speech). And he had a firmly ingrained belief about what would happen to them if “this thing” came over them in the wrong place or time.

The reunion scene is the only time he lets those guards down, and then only for a moment. My guess is that this is because it’s been four years and he wasn’t sure he’d ever see Jack again. According to the SS, he’d realized some time since that he never should’ve let Jack out of his sight, so he’d been brewing for it for a long time. Ironically, that impulsive moment probably solidified his fears about not being able to control “this thing” they had and his belief that they couldn’t live together or even be seen together.

Some people think that if Jack had just pushed Ennis a little more, the love would win out over the fear. But I think Jack learned early on what the balance of push and give needed to be with Ennis:

FNIT allowed him to take a chance and be bold for a moment, which paid off. The next day needed to be about give. “I ain’t queer.” “Me neither. It’s nobody’s business but ours.” That night he waited for Ennis to come to him.

At the end of the summer, Jack left the door open to the possibility of seeing each other again, even saying he might be back after Ennis essentially shut down the possibility when he said he most likely wouldn’t be back. And Jack did come back, just in case Ennis had been able to take that step.

After four years, Jack tentatively sent the first postcard. Ennis initiated the reunion kiss, showing Jack that he was indeed missed, that they had felt, and still felt, the same things.
Following this, Jack told Ennis he wanted a life together. Ennis said once in a while in the middle of nowhere. Jack complied, knowing that pushing Ennis would only push him away. This pattern continued throughout their relationship.

So why would Jack leave Lureen and move closer to Ennis? The idea behind having him  do so is that they could spend more time together and Ennis might eventually soften to the idea of making a life with Jack. It’s possible such a move would actually accomplish just the opposite.

So Jack leaves Lureen, which means leaving his son. Which he was more than willing to do if Ennis agreed to live with him, but would just a vague possibility that Ennis might come around some day be enough to make him do so?

Also, the reason that they are able to meet up as often as they do is that Ennis quits his jobs when necessary and Jack is able to come and go from his job with a certain amount of freedom because he works for family, which allows him to work around Ennis’s schedule when necessary. Who knows what kind of job Jack would get if he moved back to Wyoming (or even how it would be if he worked for his father)? Would they be able to maintain even the meager trip schedule they already had? After the divorce, Ennis was less willing to quit jobs because of his child support obligations. Flexibility for Jack might be key then.

And again, knowing how Ennis feels about the way people might be looking at him (when Jack is hundreds of miles away so those people would have to be seeing something inside of him and not just an overt behavior between the two), how likely is it that he would respond well to having Jack live nearby? As long as he’s an old ‘fishing buddy’ who lives far away, it makes sense for Ennis to go off to ‘the middle of nowhere’ in order to see him. If he lived closer, Ennis might actually have to be seen with him in public somewhere. Not his favorite idea.

So we’ve now had Jack leave his wife and child, his job security, his built-in excuse to meet up with Ennis on a semi-regular basis and the flexibility to be able to do so, and all on the remote chance that, contrary to everything Ennis has been telling him all these years, he might get lucky and find that Ennis is suddenly receptive to the idea of building a life together. I just don’t see any good angle to his doing so.

Jack took a chance with FNIT and it paid off. Then he backed off and let Ennis set the pace.

He took a chance again with the postcard and again let Ennis set the rules.

He took  another chance after Ennis got divorced  and it seems to me he got the message Ennis sent him loud and clear. This relationship was never going to be about Jack pushing Ennis to do anything. It just wasn’t the way that either one of them was programmed.

Ok, having said all that, here’s where I bring us back on topic. Throughout the film, and in many of these scenes that I’ve referenced, you can see the surreptitious  glance each directs toward the other:

 Ennis looking up at Jack, gauging his reaction when he asks about people looking at him and knowing.

The look he gives him as he squirms around trying to figure out how to say no to August.

Every sideways glance when one thinks the other isn’t looking, just to get one more clue about how the other one is feeling or to give us one more clue about what he is feeling.

Ang Lee is brilliant to elicit these expressions from Jake and Heath, and they are brilliant for being able to convey so much of each man’s inner struggle through nothing more than the looks on their faces and the feelings conveyed in their eyes. Almost three years later and I am still in awe. ^f^
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

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Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Surreptitious Glances
« Reply #79 on: Oct 08, 2008, 10:23 AM »
Awesome post, FlwrChild. I love your analysis, and I agree with what you say here. That Jack took chances to get the ball rolling, and Ennis set the pace, the rules. When he got shut down after that long drive after the divorce, it broke him. He changed and took no more chances. Up until that point, he might have moved to Lightning Flats on a wish upon a star that Ennis might take up on his offer. After that point, he wasn't so sure no more, and he'd be right. Ennis wasn't ready.

I still believe that by the time Ennis sent that last postcard they were both ready: Jack was ready to take charge and take chances again; Ennis was ready to move to a faster rhythm set by Jack.

I guess we will never know for sure.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

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Re: Surreptitious Glances
« Reply #80 on: Oct 08, 2008, 04:13 PM »
Hey, Barb, AWESOME post, baby!!!  :clap: :clap: Believe it or not, I was waiting for you and Michelle to say the things I wanted to say. I know how you think, especially about Jack, because I've spent more than year and half reading your posts here, so I knew you was gonna say the same thing that was in my head. I waited for your post because I can't express that much with my broken English. THANK YOU!!! I could quote word by word.

I just want to comment a thing. I totally agree with Ennis having a bad reaction if Jack moved near him, because, as you said, he felt like people know, even if Jack was living three states away, and he was unable to talk to Jack for 2 minutes without being paranoid because a white truck was on the road near them (divorce scene), so if Jack moved to Riverton I bet he would have done all possible things to not see him in public, and he never would let Jack spend time in his home, so I think they'd see each other even less than before....And Jack'd be so even more bitter because he didn't like WY and its close minded people. Jack hated LF...no way he was going there to wait for Ennis…..He said to his father that he was gonna move there, BUT with Ennis. Jack was not stupid: what was the point to move there alone, to loose his comfortable life in Texas with his own family to go to a dusty sad place to hear his father bitching about him? Jack only would do that if Ennis was by his side. Maybe Jack chose LF because he knew that it’s be his ranch when his father died, and because he knew that Ennis didn’t like to travel, but he didn’t like that place, so living alone there waiting for Ennis was not an option.
The other option was Riverton, where Ennis was paranoid, and we have to think about Alma!!! Ennis learned in the Thanksgiving dinner that Alma knew about them, so do you really think that Ennis’d be happy if Jack moves to the same town where Alma lives? NO WAY!! He’d freak out!! He knew that Alma knew Jack, and maybe she was keeping it quite because she didn’t have to see Jack, but seeing the man her husband cheated on her with was another different story, and maybe Ennis feared that she’s gonna speak or something.

Ennis reacted bad when people pushed him…After FNIT he ran away, and when Aguirre forced them to part and Ennis had to choose between see Jack again or not, he ran away again, just saying “see you around”. I bet if Jack moved near him Ennis had felt cornered. Just watch his reaction when Jack suggested Texas in the conversation near the river….Ennis read there that Jack wanted him to move near him, so he could try to get that sweet life, and once more he reacted bad.

Just my opinion. Thank you and sorry for the OT!!  ^f^

Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: Surreptitious Glances
« Reply #81 on: Oct 08, 2008, 08:32 PM »
Great posts everyone.  :) I think, as referenced in Jackster's SS quotes, that Jack wasn't a fan of LF. But I think it would have been a "safer" option for him/them in that, at least according to my impression, it was way out in the middle of nowhere. So if it came down to it Jack would have gone back to LF permanently if Ennis was going to be with him. As I said in my earlier post, to be so close and still so far would have been devestating to Jack. I don't think this was a  Field of Dreams kind of thing- if you build it they will come. But let's suppose Jack did move back and set up home/shop and Ennis still refused him-he'd have a very big reminder of a dream that failed to materialize in his face everyday. I'm not going to go into a long narrative on what each sacrificed to be with the other because each made them. Ennis could have just as easily suggested the sweet life if he wanted it or offered to pick up and move too- that wasn't all on Jack to do. As Flwrchild said, there was a certain, perhaps even delicate, balance that needed to be had to keep this "thing" going. Jack could have divorced Lureen and even put it out there during that first reunion, so I would say it's safe to assume that given the word, that offer still stood. Ennis could have left Alma too. Or he could have just not married her at all after being up on Brokeback. I don't think it's fair to say that Jack should/could have done a,b and c without putting the same expectations on Ennis. I don't see one as more "important" than the other. Either one could have put it all on the line, but I don't think either was willing to take the risk of doing that and possibly losing the person who was, imo, most important to them. They both had a responsibility in keeping this thing going and I think they did the best that they could within the constraints they were under.
« Last Edit: Oct 08, 2008, 08:44 PM by LuvJackNasty »
“What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger."

You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will live as one ~ Imagine- J. Lennon

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Surreptitious Glances
« Reply #82 on: Oct 08, 2008, 09:03 PM »
[...]As Flwrchild said, there was a certain, perhaps even delicate, balance that needed to be had to keep this "thing" going. Jack could have divorced Lureen and even put it out there during that first reunion, so I would say it's safe to assume that given the word, that offer still stood. Ennis could have left Alma too. Or he could have just not married her at all after being up on Brokeback. I don't think it's fair to say that Jack should/could have done a,b and c without putting the same expectations on Ennis. I don't see one as more "important" than the other. Either one could have put it all on the line, but I don't think either was willing to take the risk of doing that and possibly losing the person who was, imo, most important to them. They both had a responsibility in keeping this thing going and I think they did the best that they could within the constraints they were under.

Absolutely that both had their share of responsibility in the break down of communication and the relationship. I think Ennis is the kind of person who takes things literally, as it appears on the surface. I think he was surprised by Jack's description of his marriage - that they can do it over the phone. As long as Jack is married to Lureen, Ennis would not propose a sweet life to Jack. No way. If Jack moved away from Texas to Ligntning Flats, and gave Ennis an ultimatum, to at least go visit for a weekend, I believe Ennis would do it, after a year at most. He needs Jack as much as Jack needs Ennis. Just my humble opinion.

But don't get me wrong; I don't fault Jack a single second. If he was drinking and miserable living in Texas missing Ennis, I can't imagine the hell he'd be going through living with the ugly John Twist in Lightning Flats. Seeing that bully of a man everyday would be enough to drive anyone away, except a saint like Ma Twist.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline jackster

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Re: Surreptitious Glances
« Reply #83 on: Oct 10, 2008, 01:38 AM »

. . . having said all that, here’s where I bring us back on topic. Throughout the film, and in many of these scenes that I’ve referenced, you can see the surreptitious  glance each directs toward the other:

. . . Every sideways glance when one thinks the other isn’t looking, just to get one more clue about how the other one is feeling or to give us one more clue about what he is feeling.

Ang Lee is brilliant to elicit these expressions from Jake and Heath, and they are brilliant for being able to convey so much of each man’s inner struggle through nothing more than the looks on their faces and the feelings conveyed in their eyes. Almost three years later and I am still in awe. ^f^

Yup. Nice post here FC. Ain't this right where we start with these two? Glancin' at each other, checkin' out the goods, sizin' up the options. "Sayin not a goddam word", but judging each other from the body language, the eyes, just like you'd do with horse. Plenty of awe here too, right down the line . . .

we get to drinkin' and talkin' an all

Offline Ranchand1

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Re: Surreptitious Glances
« Reply #84 on: Oct 10, 2008, 03:38 AM »
     Brokeback is full of them looks.  I always watch for em.  Catch a new glance an get excited to have seen it.  Like I caught em lookin at me.  Makes the hair on the back of my neck stand on end.  Have to say that Heath should have won the Oscar for this alone.  Way he told most his story through looks/glances/eyes.  Portraying more raw emotion and climactic moments than any other actor in history...

     Guess I should have just quoted FlwrChild.   Good words Flwr.
huh..

Offline rimasworld

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Re: Surreptitious Glances
« Reply #85 on: Oct 10, 2008, 01:04 PM »
     Brokeback is full of them looks.  I always watch for em.  Catch a new glance an get excited to have seen it.  Like I caught em lookin at me.  Makes the hair on the back of my neck stand on end.  Have to say that Heath should have won the Oscar for this alone.  Way he told most his story through looks/glances/eyes.  Portraying more raw emotion and climactic moments than any other actor in history...

     Guess I should have just quoted FlwrChild.   Good words Flwr.

Yep as far as we're concerned, he did win.."academy be damned"

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Surreptitious Glances
« Reply #86 on: Oct 10, 2008, 11:05 PM »
I'm with you all. These guys deserved those Oscars, no doubt about it. :c)

Great picture, Jackster. :)


I feel like I should watch the movie again this weekend just to see all the surreptitious glances between them.
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Surreptitious Glances
« Reply #87 on: Oct 11, 2008, 09:17 AM »
I'd never stand up a date like that, Ranchand.  :c)

It'll be a late night viewing for me, after the rest of the house is asleep. I'll be back in the morning with my observations. O0
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline tpe

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Re: Surreptitious Glances
« Reply #88 on: Oct 13, 2008, 07:48 AM »
Great posts everyone.  :) I think, as referenced in Jackster's SS quotes, that Jack wasn't a fan of LF. But I think it would have been a "safer" option for him/them in that, at least according to my impression, it was way out in the middle of nowhere. So if it came down to it Jack would have gone back to LF permanently if Ennis was going to be with him. As I said in my earlier post, to be so close and still so far would have been devestating to Jack. I don't think this was a  Field of Dreams kind of thing- if you build it they will come. But let's suppose Jack did move back and set up home/shop and Ennis still refused him-he'd have a very big reminder of a dream that failed to materialize in his face everyday. I'm not going to go into a long narrative on what each sacrificed to be with the other because each made them. Ennis could have just as easily suggested the sweet life if he wanted it or offered to pick up and move too- that wasn't all on Jack to do. As Flwrchild said, there was a certain, perhaps even delicate, balance that needed to be had to keep this "thing" going. Jack could have divorced Lureen and even put it out there during that first reunion, so I would say it's safe to assume that given the word, that offer still stood. Ennis could have left Alma too. Or he could have just not married her at all after being up on Brokeback. I don't think it's fair to say that Jack should/could have done a,b and c without putting the same expectations on Ennis. I don't see one as more "important" than the other. Either one could have put it all on the line, but I don't think either was willing to take the risk of doing that and possibly losing the person who was, imo, most important to them. They both had a responsibility in keeping this thing going and I think they did the best that they could within the constraints they were under.

Thanks everyone for the very thoughtful exchanges.

I think the last statement is good to keep in mind when we recall all the surreptitious glances exchanged between the two.  We see these glances as a kind of groping in the dark, and will to connect in spite of the contraints and fear of the unknown.    In spite of themselves, both understood that both of them were constantly trying to feel their way to the other, and it didn't matter here or when the connection would be achieved or find fulfilment. 

What we see in these initial glances was the personal desire of each one to explore their own feelings towards the other, and this is what informs them throughout the nearly 20 years of happiness and despair.   With hindsight, we see that the glances were more than just casual flirtation.


Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Surreptitious Glances
« Reply #89 on: Oct 13, 2008, 11:21 AM »
Thanks everyone for the very thoughtful exchanges.

I think the last statement is good to keep in mind when we recall all the surreptitious glances exchanged between the two.  We see these glances as a kind of groping in the dark, and will to connect in spite of the contraints and fear of the unknown.    In spite of themselves, both understood that both of them were constantly trying to feel their way to the other, and it didn't matter here or when the connection would be achieved or find fulfilment. 

What we see in these initial glances was the personal desire of each one to explore their own feelings towards the other, and this is what informs them throughout the nearly 20 years of happiness and despair.   With hindsight, we see that the glances were more than just casual flirtation.


Yup. I love your words here, tpe...groping in the dark, exploring their own feelings.

There ain't nothin' casual about this thing with no reins.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.