Topic: jack and ennis - "equals"? one dominant party?

[manila_rocks]

I have been thinking about the relationship between Jack and Ennis in terms of who was the dominant party.

On one foot, I feel it was Ennis because he was dominant sexually at all times.

On the other, it seems it was Jack because he was more manipulative and controlling in a psychological way.

I want to hear other thoughts..

[ethan]

Good question - Ennis is the passive agressive kind. Talking about the short lease he put on Jack. Ennis was the one with control.

Jack asked to be together and Ennis said no way
Jack drove 14 hours to be with Ennis and only drove away
At the end, Jack died because of Ennis.

I am not sure if the dominance of a relationship correlates with one's sexuality.

[Cowboy Cody]

Good question - Ennis is the passive agressive kind. Talking about the short lease he put on Jack. Ennis was the one with control.

Jack asked to be together and Ennis said no way
Jack drove 14 hours to be with Ennis and only drove away
At the end, Jack died because of Ennis.

I am not sure if the dominance of a relationship correlates with one's sexuality.

Ethan, I agree buddy, I don't think so either. My bubb said once, just remember who the rooster is, I said give it up, your cockscomb is saggin'.

[manila_rocks]

Ethan.  Do you really feel Jack died because of Ennis?  Wowwwwwwwweeee.

I think Jack died because he got himself in a bad situation.   

[rikcub]

I have been thinking about the relationship between Jack and Ennis in terms of who was the dominant party.

On one foot, I feel it was Ennis because he was dominant sexually at all times.

On the other, it seems it was Jack because he was more manipulative and controlling in a psychological way.

I want to hear other thoughts..

Neither one was dominant....it was a true yin and yang relationship...and that is why BBM exists! 

[ethan]

Ethan.  Do you really feel Jack died because of Ennis?  Wowwwwwwwweeee.

I think Jack died because he got himself in a bad situation.   

manila_rocks - Thanks for asking. Not completely but I do feel that Ennis is a part of reason why Jack died. 

[Patriot1]

Neither one was dominant....it was a true yin and yang relationship...and that is why BBM exists! 

rikcub I believe you are exactly correct.  I noticed this in the movie.

In the beginning Jack thought he was going to be in control.  He found out very quickly he wasn't. Ennis was the dominant one even though this was something he had never done before. (Speaking of which, if Ennis had never done this before, how did he know to use spit? But that is another topic.)

But, throughout the movie we see Ennis taking the active and passive roles.  The hug was active.  Letting Jack caress him and kiss him and "teach" him what to do was passive.  In the motel Ennis was passive being held by Jack. In the tent (second night?) Ennis is on top of Jack but then rolls over and Jack takes the aggressive role by being on top of Ennis. Ennis being passive by laying his head on Jacks Chest. Ennis' strong manly personality was aggressive where Jacks was more passive. Ennis being the aggressor in sex.  There was none of this BS, your the wife and I'm the husband.  It was just two guys who fell in love.

While there is nothing in the story, screenplay or movie, I often wonder if sex was both ways.  We do, after all, understand that Jack had to get satisfaction also. (But then again, that is another topic.)

All these things just jumped right out at me.  So, I agree rikcub, neither one was dominant.  In my mind, that would have made for a permenant and happy relationship had society allowed them to live together.

[Cowboy Cody]

Neither one was dominant....it was a true yin and yang relationship...and that is why BBM exists! 

rikcub I believe you are exactly correct.  I noticed this in the movie.

In the beginning Jack thought he was going to be in control.  He found out very quickly he wasn't. Ennis was the dominant one even though this was something he had never done before. (Speaking of which, if Ennis had never done this before, how did he know to use spit? But that is another topic.)

But, throughout the movie we see Ennis taking the active and passive roles.  The hug was active.  Letting Jack caress him and kiss him and "teach" him what to do was passive.  In the motel Ennis was passive being held by Jack. In the tent (second night?) Ennis is on top of Jack but then rolls over and Jack takes the aggressive role by being on top of Ennis. Ennis being passive by laying his head on Jacks Chest. Ennis' strong manly personality was aggressive where Jacks was more passive. Ennis being the aggressor in sex.  There was none of this BS, your the wife and I'm the husband.  It was just two guys who fell in love.

While there is nothing in the story, screenplay or movie, I often wonder if sex was both ways.  We do, after all, understand that Jack had to get satisfaction also. (But then again, that is another topic.)

All these things just jumped right out at me.  So, I agree rikcub, neither one was dominant.  In my mind, that would have made for a permenant and happy relationship had society allowed them to live together.

Patriot1 - Great observations on the role of guy-guy relationships!

[camom]

I don't think you can say Ennis was the dominant one just because he didn't give into Jack's demands--that was due more to his inability to give into his fear.  If times had been different, maybe he'd have said "yes" in a heartbeat, we don't know.  I agree more with the yin-yang idea, because we do see a lot of give and take throughout the movie.  Yes, we see Jack's feelings more, but Ennis is such a stoic we can't see inside him so easily.  The final scene together makes it clear that Ennis has yearned for Jack every bit as much as Jack has yearned for him. 

camom

[Uptown_Gal]

Forgive my ignorant question once again.  Thank goodness it's not about livestock or fish.  I'm a hetero female.  I saw BBM 4x.  BBM #1 was w. my gay colleague.  However, I was too embarrassed to ask him the above question.

Am I wrong to assume that Ennis likely penetrated Jack during ALL of their copulations throughout the years?  Because I can't imagine Ennis on all fours as the receiver.  When it comes to homosexual sex, is sex usually both ways or does it tend to break down into traditional male/female roles during sexual intercourse?  I realize that Jack Gyllenhaal during an interview loathed how people commented that he was "the woman in the relationship," that it was a love story, etc.  But I'm OBSESSED w. that sexual detail.

[rane99]

Forgive my ignorant question once again.  Thank goodness it's not about livestock or fish.  I'm a hetero female.  I saw BBM 4x.  BBM #1 was w. my gay colleague.  However, I was too embarrassed to ask him the above question.

Am I wrong to assume that Ennis likely penetrated Jack during ALL of their copulations throughout the years?  Because I can't imagine Ennis on all fours as the receiver.  When it comes to homosexual sex, is sex usually both ways or does it tend to break down into traditional male/female roles during sexual intercourse?  I realize that Jack Gyllenhaal during an interview loathed how people commented that he was "the woman in the relationship," that it was a love story, etc.  But I'm OBSESSED w. that sexual detail.

Well, speaking from exerience, it would be wrong to assume.  The story never goes into detail, but to the sex... it can go either way.   I could assume that Jack, seeming the more experienced may want to, or had tried either. But who really  knows. (That's kind of the beauty of the story... alot of the details are ambiguos and are left for the reader/viewer to think)
In real life, it can go either way.  How gay men act behave out of bed doesn't necessarily indicate how they behave in bed.

[chrissy323]

Forgive my ignorant question once again.  Thank goodness it's not about livestock or fish.  I'm a hetero female.  I saw BBM 4x.  BBM #1 was w. my gay colleague.  However, I was too embarrassed to ask him the above question.

Am I wrong to assume that Ennis likely penetrated Jack during ALL of their copulations throughout the years?  Because I can't imagine Ennis on all fours as the receiver.  When it comes to homosexual sex, is sex usually both ways or does it tend to break down into traditional male/female roles during sexual intercourse?  I realize that Jack Gyllenhaal during an interview loathed how people commented that he was "the woman in the relationship," that it was a love story, etc.  But I'm OBSESSED w. that sexual detail.

Well, speaking from exerience, it would be wrong to assume.  The story never goes into detail, but to the sex... it can go either way.   I could assume that Jack, seeming the more experienced may want to, or had tried either. But who really  knows. (That's kind of the beauty of the story... alot of the details are ambiguos and are left for the reader/viewer to think)
In real life, it can go either way.  How gay men act behave out of bed doesn't necessarily indicate how they behave in bed.

We really don't see details of their sexual relationship so I would think it would be difficult to say what really happened between them. But doesn't the book say something about Jack riding more than bulls? I kinda interpreted that to mean that Jack was might be both a rider and the ridden.

Chrissy

[rane99]

Forgive my ignorant question once again.  Thank goodness it's not about livestock or fish.  I'm a hetero female.  I saw BBM 4x.  BBM #1 was w. my gay colleague.  However, I was too embarrassed to ask him the above question.

Am I wrong to assume that Ennis likely penetrated Jack during ALL of their copulations throughout the years?  Because I can't imagine Ennis on all fours as the receiver.  When it comes to homosexual sex, is sex usually both ways or does it tend to break down into traditional male/female roles during sexual intercourse?  I realize that Jack Gyllenhaal during an interview loathed how people commented that he was "the woman in the relationship," that it was a love story, etc.  But I'm OBSESSED w. that sexual detail.

Well, speaking from exerience, it would be wrong to assume.  The story never goes into detail, but to the sex... it can go either way.   I could assume that Jack, seeming the more experienced may want to, or had tried either. But who really  knows. (That's kind of the beauty of the story... alot of the details are ambiguos and are left for the reader/viewer to think)
In real life, it can go either way.  How gay men act behave out of bed doesn't necessarily indicate how they behave in bed.

We really don't see details of their sexual relationship so I would think it would be difficult to say what really happened between them. But doesn't the book say something about Jack riding more than bulls? I kinda interpreted that to mean that Jack was might be both a rider and the ridden.

Chrissy

oh, yes it does speak to Jack and his experiences. In this case I think it refers literal that Jack was riding in the rodeo, but also allude to to riding sexually. In other words, Jack wasn't chaste.

[Patriot1]

We really don't see details of their sexual relationship so I would think it would be difficult to say what really happened between them. But doesn't the book say something about Jack riding more than bulls? I kinda interpreted that to mean that Jack was might be both a rider and the ridden.

Chrissy

Yes, Chrissy, it does say that in the story.  But one other thing that made me wonder.

During an interview with Jake Gyllenhaal he said that Annie P. had told him the name Twist was a word used by rodeo men to mean tight and muscular thigh and butt muscles.

Now, remembering that in the story when Jack and Ennis were in the motel, Jack said to Ennis, "Christ, it got a be all that time a yours ahorseback makes it so goddamn good."

Was Annie telling us that Ennis had tight butt muscles from riding horses? And, if so, how would Jack know unless he was riding Ennis?

Story, screenplay, movie never tell us but that line got me to thinking.  Not that it detracts from the story any.  In fact, for me, it makes the story even more romantic.  Two men willing to give themselves for the pleasure of the one they love. And because Ennis is such a homophobe it makes it even more beautiful.

[CherryCake]

We really don't see details of their sexual relationship so I would think it would be difficult to say what really happened between them. But doesn't the book say something about Jack riding more than bulls? I kinda interpreted that to mean that Jack was might be both a rider and the ridden.

Chrissy

  Two men willing to give themselves for the pleasure of the one they love. And because Ennis is such a homophobe it makes it even more beautiful.

Patriot, nicely put, so to speak.