Topic: The Cruelty of Ennis Del Mar - Spoiler

[alicat]

Some great posts on here re. that scene when Jack arrives to meet Ennis thinking they will live 'happy ever after.' 

One more thing in that scene - I noticed how, despite his apparent cruelty in turning Jack away, he hugs Jack for quite a long time when Jack arrives.  Like, for far longer than a man would hug another man - I thought that was Ennis's way of showing his love.  And when they pull apart, their faces come close together as if they are about to kiss, until Ennis realises that his daughter's are near and pulls away.  I am not saying this makes up for the way he treats Jack, but he is trying to express his love in the way he knows how.  And I don't think he would ever mean to be intentionally cruel to Jack - he adores him.  But I wish Jack had stood his ground far more and forced Ennis to make a decision.  I think the reason Jack did not do this is he feared he would lose him altogether; in his mind, better to see him whenever he could than not at all.  What does anyone else think? 

Alicat xx

[tpe]

Some great posts on here re. that scene when Jack arrives to meet Ennis thinking they will live 'happy ever after.' 

One more thing in that scene - I noticed how, despite his apparent cruelty in turning Jack away, he hugs Jack for quite a long time when Jack arrives.  Like, for far longer than a man would hug another man - I thought that was Ennis's way of showing his love.  And when they pull apart, their faces come close together as if they are about to kiss, until Ennis realises that his daughter's are near and pulls away.  I am not saying this makes up for the way he treats Jack, but he is trying to express his love in the way he knows how.  And I don't think he would ever mean to be intentionally cruel to Jack - he adores him.  But I wish Jack had stood his ground far more and forced Ennis to make a decision.  I think the reason Jack did not do this is he feared he would lose him altogether; in his mind, better to see him whenever he could than not at all.  What does anyone else think? 

Alicat xx

Hello Alicat.  I agree that Ennis truly loved Jack -- probably in a deeper way than Jack loved Ennis.  The more reason to think that his treatment of Jack in this scene is cruel -- cruel to Jack and to his true self. 

It always hurts the most when cruelty (either premediatated or unintentional) comes from someone we love.

[francis.shim]

It is interesting to note how we find it easier to assign blame of cruelty on the character who expresses it, but not on the phenomenon that creates it.  I still think that it very important for us to examine that distinction.  I find that the story enters into a very universal forum when we look beyond the characters... and it is only there that I can find true redemption for why the characters behaved the way they did in the story.

Does anyone else feel that way as well?

Peace,
Frank

[Toadily]

Very true, I think because we personalize this movie so much we feel an anger at
Ennis like we know him though.  To put it on "Society" is a more intellectual process.
We are in love with this movie and the characters...thus they piss us off at times!

[beloy21]

I totally agree that ennis didn't handle the situation very well. If i'm in his position I will stop at that moment look  into his eyes ,wrap my arms around him ,and will say yes to him over and over again.and will kiss him passionately. I mean let's face  offers like that are hard to come by. And besides getting an offer from a man as gorgeous as Jake (or Jack) ,drove hundreds of miles just to say to me those magic
and electrifying words "here I am". My god that will be an absolute turn on . Trust me in a real world only a handful of fools would say no to him.

[tpe]

I totally agree that ennis didn't handle the situation very well. If i'm in his position I will stop at that moment look  into his eyes ,wrap my arms around him ,and will say yes to him over and over again.and will kiss him passionately. I mean let's face  offers like that are hard to come by. And besides getting an offer from a man as gorgeous as Jake (or Jack) ,drove hundreds of miles just to say to me those magic
and electrifying words "here I am". My god that will be an absolute turn on . Trust me in a real world only a handful of fools would say no to him.

"Here I am"

God, it must have hurt Jack so bad...

[proulxfan]

For me Ennis is not cruel....he's never cruel
but he's totally paralyzed  by fear and deeply suffering.
Morover, during this scene, seeing the delusion and the pain on Jack's face,
 Ennis says "Jack " a couple of times... I think he  means, in his elliptic language:
 "I'm so sorry Jack, can you understand me? Forgive me"

I agree with that. I don't think Ennis, was really cruel, just paralyzed by fear. It's so exasperating because at times during the film you just want to shake him. But cruel?
Ultimaltely I don't think so, and that's why we're so drawn to him in spite of his paralysis , as is Jack. His innate kindness is locked away, but still somehow palpable, and the frustration lies in wanting to see it brought out in the open. But of course, it doesn't happen till it's too late... :'(

[aimi15]

i agree, i feel that Jack had found a degree of resolution that Ennis never did and whilst it was heartbreaking to see Jack's sadness its Ennis' loneliness thats more striking and most enduring, and its what i have took away from the film-Ennis' struggle with himself :'( :'(

[camom]

Brokeback (wilderness) is the only place where Ennis and Jack can be themselves and be completely free....society encroaching on their happiness...the outside world is constantly pounding on the door...It's always safest to lash out at the ones we love the most.

He's not only lost the man he loves, but he has to live with the knowledge that he denied  both himself and Jack great joy, and for what?  Jack's dead--all that denial didn't prevent the one thing that Ennis feared most.

Waaaaaaaaah.   :'(         

camom - one of the best and saddest posts i've ever read, now im here cryin' at work :'( :'( :'( :'(

\

Aw, now, I'm sorry about that.  You should have seen me sobbing in the theater this afternoon.  Damn.

camom

[camom]

You know, too, we're looking at Ennis not only from our perspective of living in 2006, but with the eyes of people who are (clearly) educated, knowledgeable, probably wealthier.  Ennis is a man of nothing--no education, no knowledge, no money, no freedom, no understanding of himself.  He's never been out of Wyoming.  He doesn't know anything else.  All he knows is what he feels and he can't express that.  Jack, at least, has had some opportunity or exposure to a life other than how he was brought up.  Of all people, Jack should understand why Ennis is the way he is.  I'm not saying Ennis doesn't behave badly at times, because he does, but put yourself in his shoes.  When he says he's nothing and nowhere, he's not joking.  He's been nothing and nowhere all his life.

camom   

[chameau]

You know, too, we're looking at Ennis not only from our perspective of living in 2006, but with the eyes of people who are (clearly) educated, knowledgeable, probably wealthier.  Ennis is a man of nothing--no education, no knowledge, no money, no freedom, no understanding of himself.  He's never been out of Wyoming.  He doesn't know anything else.  All he knows is what he feels and he can't express that.  Jack, at least, has had some opportunity or exposure to a life other than how he was brought up.  Of all people, Jack should understand why Ennis is the way he is.  I'm not saying Ennis doesn't behave badly at times, because he does, but put yourself in his shoes.  When he says he's nothing and nowhere, he's not joking.  He's been nothing and nowhere all his life.

camom   

Goos posting camom.

Ennis is scared to death, his daughters are with him, just the way he looks at that truck passing on the road.  If he had been alone  with Jack, they would have been kissing maybe, they would have been seen.

[Cowboy Cody]

All true, but he could have at least made some time for him, I think when confronted with the possibility that his girls would find out, made him clam up even faster than when accused by the nag herself. He should have at least wrestled him down behind the shed or somethin'.

[camom]

All true, but he could have at least made some time for him, I think when confronted with the possibility that his girls would find out, made him clam up even faster than when accused by the nag herself. He should have at least wrestled him down behind the shed or somethin'.

Well, that's what you or I would've done, but...this is Ennis.  I don't think he wanted anyone seeing Jack around his place, period.  Cruel?  Maybe, but it's the fear behind the cruelty that's really the point, and it wasn't Ennis that created the fear.  I don't think Ennis was able to act in any other way.

camom   

[cybernaut]

You know, too, we're looking at Ennis not only from our perspective of living in 2006, but with the eyes of people who are (clearly) educated, knowledgeable, probably wealthier.  Ennis is a man of nothing--no education, no knowledge, no money, no freedom, no understanding of himself.  He's never been out of Wyoming.  He doesn't know anything else.  All he knows is what he feels and he can't express that.  Jack, at least, has had some opportunity or exposure to a life other than how he was brought up.  Of all people, Jack should understand why Ennis is the way he is.  I'm not saying Ennis doesn't behave badly at times, because he does, but put yourself in his shoes.  When he says he's nothing and nowhere, he's not joking.  He's been nothing and nowhere all his life.
camom   

I think Jack knows exactly what Ennis is feeling and offers Ennis a ticket out... for 20 years! But I always think the affluent people are always quite bitter and condescending especially toward people who are broke and poor like Ennis, you can see it in Jack in the later years. Yuppies?

[Cowboy Cody]

All true, but he could have at least made some time for him, I think when confronted with the possibility that his girls would find out, made him clam up even faster than when accused by the nag herself. He should have at least wrestled him down behind the shed or somethin'.

Well, that's what you or I would've done, but...this is Ennis.  I don't think he wanted anyone seeing Jack around his place, period.  Cruel?  Maybe, but it's the fear behind the cruelty that's really the point, and it wasn't Ennis that created the fear.  I don't think Ennis was able to act in any other way.

camom 

camom - you are correct, Ennis couldn't react in any other way. A man with limited experience in the world, only knowing his immediate surroundings would have reacted the same.

Cybernaut, I've known a few people like that, who have talked down to me because I was a teacher not making too much money while they were raking it in, telling me how fab this was or that way, too bad for them, their reality is skewered.

[rikcub]

It is interesting to note how we find it easier to assign blame of cruelty on the character who expresses it, but not on the phenomenon that creates it.  I still think that it very important for us to examine that distinction.  I find that the story enters into a very universal forum when we look beyond the characters... and it is only there that I can find true redemption for why the characters behaved the way they did in the story.

Does anyone else feel that way as well?

Peace,
Frank

Absolutely....as much as we all love this story and these people Annie Proulx wrote a story about homophobia in the western US.  THAT is the point she wants us all to get through these characters and their stories.

[jrfh50]

You know, too, we're looking at Ennis not only from our perspective of living in 2006, but with the eyes of people who are (clearly) educated, knowledgeable, probably wealthier.  Ennis is a man of nothing--no education, no knowledge, no money, no freedom, no understanding of himself.  camom   

Camom, thanks for persisting in pointing out that Ennis is a person with no understanding of himself in a situation where he has no bearings. If you don't know or feel or sense somehow you have a choice that you can see yourself taking, then you don't have a choice. I agree with your caution about judging Ennis as if he failed to do the right thing out of cruelty or bad choices. He fails himself first and always, fails to get comfort where he could from Jack, feels the fear without comfort or the possibility of relief. It was a difficult life he led.

[francis.shim]

Very true, I think because we personalize this movie so much we feel an anger at
Ennis like we know him though.  To put it on "Society" is a more intellectual process.
We are in love with this movie and the characters...thus they piss us off at times!

Yes, I know... I am so in love with Jack and Ennis too.  Sometimes, like some of my postings show, I just want to jump right into the scene and grab those two idiotic boys, pull them by their ears and say get together and stay together!!!

I just thought that I would let people know that there is *HOPE* for Jack and Ennis...

Peace,
Frank

[chameau]

Yes, I know... I am so in love with Jack and Ennis too.  Sometimes, like some of my postings show, I just want to jump right into the scene and grab those two idiotic boys, pull them by their ears and say get together and stay together!!!

Oh yesssss!

Thanks Franck!

[rabjr1]

that is the measure of the short leash that Ennis keeps Jack on and they both know it.  They can't do anything about it it just is. 

[camom]

"If you can't fix it, you got to stand it."  Ennis stood it, Jack tried and couldn't.   

camom

[chameau]

"If you can't fix it, you got to stand it."  Ennis stood it, Jack tried and couldn't.   

camom

Hem!  Thanks camom, chameau's brain is spinning at 200mph 

You're right!

[frenchcda]

quotes: Jack Twist: Tell you what... truth is, sometimes I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it...
that night on the river edge he said that to Ennis, so I know that in my eyes Ennis suffered way more and that is shown when Jack told him  I wish I knew how to quit you!

quote: Ennis Del Mar: I'm gonna tell you this one time, Jack f***in' Twist, an' I ain't foolin'. What I don't know - all them things I don't know - could get you killed if I come to know them. I mean it.

Jack Twist: Yeah well try this one, and I'll say it just once!

Ennis Del Mar: Go ahead!

Jack Twist: Tell you what, we coulda had a good life together! f***in' real good life! Had us a place of our own. But you didn't want it, Ennis! So what we got now is Brokeback Mountain! Everything's built on that! That's all we got, boy, f***in' all. So I hope you know that, even if you don't never know the rest! You count the damn few times we have been together in nearly twenty years and you measure the short !@#$ leash you keep me on - and then you ask me about Mexico and tell me you'll kill me for needing somethin' I don't hardly never get. You have no idea how bad it gets! I'm not you... I can't make it on a coupla high-altitude f***s once or twice a year! You are too much for me Ennis, you sonofawhoreson bitch! I wish I knew how to quit you.

Ennis Del Mar: [crying] Well, why don't you? Why don't you just let me be? It's because of you that I'm like this! I ain't got nothing... I ain't nowhere... Get the f*** off me! I can't stand being like this no more, Jack.

Now tell me when I feel in my being that my soul is mangled that Ennis hasn't suffered, because to me he reflect what I live in my daily life, tormented and sad in the abyss of an empty heart, yet I walk among strangers and like the wind I pass unnoticed I may as well be dead to this world, and that is fine... I have learned to live and accept the consequences, come what may! maybe it is unconceivable to some people that they are many character such as Ennis in this world, we are the silent majority that dare not speak , but trough words express by an author such as Annie Proulx, and lastly I live in the core of a major city, and yet I would do anything to get back home in my own Brokeback Mountain, but what is done can never be undone, so you got to stand it, ain't truly no reins on this one!

[bachalive]

After my first viewing of the film I left the theatre thinking that Ennis was a jerk and a selfish person. However, after I saw the movie once again last Sunday, my opinion totally changed. From the beginning Ennis told Jack "If you can't fix it, you gotta stand it" meaning take it or leave it. In some way, Jack was not reading the message. If I recall, when Jack received Ennis' message, Ennis only talked about the divorce, and apparantely, he didn't mentioned anything about them living together. When Jack showed up Ennis was with his daughters and said that he has missed his visits (with his daughters) and that he hadn't seen them for a month. I totally understand Ennis position in this scene because he also loved his daughters and simply needed to spend time with them. It would be very selfish if Jack didn't understand that. I know Jack traveled to Wyoming all excited and happy fantasizing about his new life with Ennis and then when he realized it wouldn't happen drove back to Mexico all broken hearted. I totally feel that. I think Jack's expectations also set him up to getting hurt in this story.

[francis.shim]

Now tell me when I feel in my being that my soul is mangled that Ennis hasn't suffered, because to me he reflect what I live in my daily life, tormented and sad in the abyss of an empty heart, yet I walk among strangers and like the wind I pass unnoticed I may as well be dead to this world, and that is fine... I have learned to live and accept the consequences, come what may! maybe it is unconceivable to some people that they are many character such as Ennis in this world, we are the silent majority that dare not speak , but trough words express by an author such as Annie Proulx, and lastly I live in the core of a major city, and yet I would do anything to get back home in my own Brokeback Mountain, but what is done can never be undone, so you got to stand it, ain't truly no reins on this one! [/b]

Hope you are okay, frenchcda...

Yes, Jack's and Ennis' lives were *mangled* as well by the pervasive homophobia that it breaks our heart to see them *not* be together.  As tragic and helpless that the story leaves me feeling, there are signs of hope... Ennis's declaration of love at the end, Alma Jr. and Jack's mother.  In your own Brokeback Mountain, I hope that you can take some conolation that you are not alone and that there are people who can understand what you are going through.

Peace,
Frank (aka Jack Nasty)

[LisaM]

There is one part of the movie that seems to show Ennis in the worst possible light possible: Jack drives 14 hours after hearing about the divorce, and he is so humiliatingly turned away by Ennis.

Could not have Ennis accomodated Jack somehow?  He could have at least invited him to stay put until after the weekend with the girls.  Ennis perfectly knew that Jack had misunderstood the whole situation.  Shouldn't he have shown more compassion and accomodation?!?!

Your thoughts.

WOW!  So glad I cam upon your post. I have alwasy thought the same thing!!! Why couldn't Ennis have told Jack just to hang back a couple days and tehn they could be together. So sad.

[CherryCake]

You know, too, we're looking at Ennis not only from our perspective of living in 2006, but with the eyes of people who are (clearly) educated, knowledgeable, probably wealthier.  Ennis is a man of nothing--no education, no knowledge, no money, no freedom, no understanding of himself.  He's never been out of Wyoming.  He doesn't know anything else.  All he knows is what he feels and he can't express that. 
camom   

Wow, camom, that is so true... thanks for reminding us this... this reminds me that with all that Ennis and Jack are dealing with... Jack has the where-with-all to even dream of a life with Ennis.  A home to share.  This shows me how much he loves Ennis by risking everything he knows about.. his love makes him feel he could do anything, including living with the man he loves.
It's shame that even today people still care who other people fall in love with.

[Rod]

Ennis was not exactly the wordy type, right?  So he's kind of mumbly and he does say "jack, I don't know what to say."  You can read the misery on Ennis' face.  But, that's who ennis IS!  And he is very very clear that he is NOT going to be with Jack in the way Jack wants him to.  I don't see Ennis handling it any other way, and that's what his stance always was.  What a heartbreaker.

Exactly!  Don't forget, Jack misread the communication about the divorce.  I really doubt Ennis wrote and said, "Divorce is final, come on down."  Jack is a dreamer and read his own conclusions into it.  Ennis really wasn't any different than any other time.  It would've been wonderful if things could happen the way Jack wanted them to, but the tragedy of the story is that they just couldn't.  The dance goes on, but it remains the same.

camom

Yeah but ya can see what Jack was thinkin..... one of Ennis' "reasons" for not get together was his life with Alma, when that was removed Jack obviously thought, WOW now WE have a chance.  Why else would Ennis send him a postcard and tell him he was divorced.....ya'll lay of a Jack now, he was a man in love.

[flikker2005]

....ya'll lay of a Jack now, he was a man in love.

Ditto

I've done the same.

[n061857]

I was very reluctant to open this thread, because I thought there would be a lot of Ennis bashing going on.  However, I am very happy to see that even in this situation, in which Ennis is portrayed in the worst possible light, he still commands our sympathies.
The important points here I think are:

1.  Jack misunderstood the point of the divorce message.  I don't blame Jack.  It was just wishful thinking.

2.  Ennis is absolutely paralyzed by his homophobia at that moment.  Jack has invaded his heterosexual world.   His girls are there.
     Who in their right mind would get so unnerved by a passing truck?

3.  It would have been really nice, if Ennis would have suggested a later meeting, but he was completely taken unawares by the
     visit, he is feeling completely homophobic and he is not particularly intuitive.

So, no, I do not think Ennis is cruel.  You can clearly see the pain on his face in this instance and every other time he must disappoint Jack.

In the heterosexual world women do not get much sympathy, when a guy has spelled out the parameters of the relationship from the get go, as Ennis has done.   We all continue to be hopeful and think we will be the one to change the man, but it doesn't often happen.  My sympathies for Jack.  That was a terrible blow to him.