Author Topic: Buddhism: Ennis fears the "Thing" (1967); Jack's favorite memory of Ennis (1983)  (Read 59621 times)

manhattangirl

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I think Ennis learned to put his loved beings comfort before his own needs;no matter he was breaking inside,he decided not to bring pain and dissapointment to his daughter,in this case.Not to put even his duties-material duties-before his other duties-emotional duties-as so many times he did with Jack,as an easy excuse several times for not committing too much.Perhaps as a kind of penitence?.

Yes a repentance, the acknowledgement of the guilt, fear, possessive love "his suffering" to think about it, and to do better.   Ennis acknowledges his suffering, and releases his self from it through showing compassion and love to Alma, Jr., thinking not of himself but of her, wanting her to be happy.   

my 2cents     

Offline tpe

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It makes sense if  I understand you correctly, look at it in that context, how else could he survive, how long must he suffer and mourn.   In some Eugene O'Neill  kind of way seal himself up in that trailer and do his penance, or does he release the pain, and live on. 

tpe, am on the right track or way off?   

I think you are on the right track -- certainly, your mentioning O'Neill surprised me.  It certainly resonated with me, when I read it.

The notion of retribution -- as, for instance, in O'Neill's "Desire Under the Elms"  - somehow seems to be relevant here.  It is the notion of retrubution as an act of cleansing, as in the sense of purging in Greek Drama.  An act of murder exposes the depth of one's love, even as it implies a sense of complicity in the murder itself. 


Offline tpe

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Re: Buddhism: transience of love
« Reply #32 on: Mar 10, 2008, 09:21 AM »
Isn't it the desire (craving) for "love" that must be stopped, not necessarily the feelings of love, themselves, tpe (as temporary as they may or may not be)?  If Ennis is to free himself from his mourning for Jack, as mattangirl says, he must release himself from his pain. 

Buddhism would say Ennis must find a way to ease away from his desire for Jack (or any of the other desires that bring him suffering).

If Buddhism is right - that a craving form of desire is the source of all suffering - then the source of all the pain Ennis, Jack, and the other characters in Brokeback Mountain feel finds its ultimate source in their desires.

Love might be transient but Buddhists certainly don't think we should stop loving each other.  "Loving kindness" and "compassion" are frequently mentioned by the Dalai Lama, the head of Tibetan Buddhism, for example. 

Hello jetzenpolis.  What disturbs me somehwat, I admit, is that it is both the repudiation of the desire for love and the feeling of love itself that is central to the Buddhist tenet.  Granted, out of compassion, one can "delay" enlightenment in order to bring about the awakening in others, but the final goal is a release from all attachments.  This is what the bodhisattvas and the various manifestations of the Buddha (of which the Dalai Lama is supposed to be one) do. 




Offline jetzenpolis

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Re: Buddhism: transience of love
« Reply #33 on: Mar 11, 2008, 07:45 PM »
Hello jetzenpolis.  What disturbs me somewhat, I admit, is that it is both the repudiation of the desire for love and the feeling of love itself that is central to the Buddhist tenet.  Granted, out of compassion, one can "delay" enlightenment in order to bring about the awakening in others, but the final goal is a release from all attachments.  This is what the bodhisattvas and the various manifestations of the Buddha (of which the Dalai Lama is supposed to be one) do. 





Hi tpe!

Buddhism repudiates bothe the "desire" for love and the "desire" for the feeling of love, I think, rather than either "love" or even the "feeling of love," themselves.  It is "desire" that is the cause of suffering - whatever it is that is desired (as a craving). 

It's not "love" or the "feeling of love," themselves, that are causes of suffering.  Again, it is not "love" that is the problem but rather an "attachment" to love.

Just because I wasn't sure what a "bodhisattva" is, myself, I looked it up on Wikipedia.
There are a variety of definitions for "bodhisattva," depending upon the school of Buddhism.  In some, a "bodhisattva" is someone whose preceding reincarnated lifetimes lead up to Buddhist "enlightenment."  Others, such as Tibetan Buddhism (a form of Mahayana Buddhism, one of the two great divisions in Buddhist thought, Theravada Buddhism being the other), describe a "bodhisattva" as someone who aspires to become enlightened as soon as possible and, once enlightened, help others to do so, too.

I thought I knew what the difference between Mahayana and Theravada Buddhism was - before, I read what struck me as scholarly, theologically detailed entries for them in Wikipedia.  Using the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary for definitions of them, Mahayana Buddhism is "a liberal and theistic branch of Buddhism comprising sects chiefly in China and Japan, recognizing a large body of scripture in addition to the Pali canon, and teaching social concern and universal salvation [for all sentient beings]" and Theravada Buddhism is "a conservative branch of Buddhism comprising sects chiefly in Sri Lanka, Myanmar, Thailand, Laos, and Cambodia and adhering to the original Pali scriptures alone and to the nontheistic ideal of nirvana for a limited select number [of people]." 

As far as I can tell, Wikipedia and the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary are substantially in agreement about what a "bodhisattva" is.  The Mahayana tradition believes that all sentient beings are destined for "enlightenment" eventually, in one lifetime or another (however distant in the future that might be).  Within all of us is a "Buddha-nature," an inherent part of ourselves attracted to Buddhist principles.  According to Wikipedia, "The Buddha Nature or Buddha Principle (Buddha-dhatu) is taught to be a truly real, but internally hidden potency or element within the purest depths of the mind, present in all sentient beings, for awakening and becoming a Buddha."  Wikipedia continues, "The Tibetan Jonangpa monk, Dolpopa, refers to the Buddha-nature as "Self always residing in all, as the selfhood of all" (Mountain Doctrine: Tibet's Fundamental Treatise on Other-Emptiness and the Buddha Matrix, tr. by Jeffrey Hopkins, Snow Lion, New York, 2006, p.135)."

Zen, which like Tibetan Buddhism, is also Mahayana, places less emphasis on "bodhisattvas."  Wikipedia says Zen also "de-emphasizes theoretical knowledge and the study of religious texts in favor of direct individual experience of one's own true nature."  Zen is instead "notable" for its use of "mindful acceptance of the present moment, spontaneous action, and letting go of self-conscious, judgmental thinking."

bodhisattva (Wikipedia):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva

Mahayana Buddhism (m-w.com)
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Mahayana

Theravada Buddhism (m-w.com)
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theravada

Buddha-nature (Wikipedia)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha-nature

Zen (Wikipedia)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen

 
« Last Edit: Mar 11, 2008, 07:56 PM by jetzenpolis »
In the distance between what you "try to believe" and what you "know": never trust what you try to make yourself believe; trust what your intuition knows.

manhattangirl

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Re: Buddhism: transience of love
« Reply #34 on: Mar 11, 2008, 07:54 PM »
Hello jetzenpolis.  What disturbs me somehwat, I admit, is that it is both the repudiation of the desire for love and the feeling of love itself that is central to the Buddhist tenet.  Granted, out of compassion, one can "delay" enlightenment in order to bring about the awakening in others, but the final goal is a release from all attachments.  This is what the bodhisattvas and the various manifestations of the Buddha (of which the Dalai Lama is supposed to be one) do. 





I was wondering was Jack closest to the Buddhist tenet than Ennis was.  In the final confrontation didn't you get the idea that Jack was releasing himself from Ennis so Ennis's suffering can end?  I can't help but think of scene where Jack watches Ennis drive off for the last time.

Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: Buddhism: transience of love
« Reply #35 on: Mar 12, 2008, 06:50 AM »
I was wondering was Jack closest to the Buddhist tenet than Ennis was.  In the final confrontation didn't you get the idea that Jack was releasing himself from Ennis so Ennis's suffering can end?  I can't help but think of scene where Jack watches Ennis drive off for the last time.

i dont know i never really thought jacks "i wish i could quit you" was meant as away of seperating them i think he was saying to ennis thet ennis was making it so hard for them to be together jack wished he could just quit the relationship, but in my eyes it was just proving he didnt want to and couldnt quit ennis (im sorry if that didnt make sense).
it saddens me to no end that it is amongst the confrontation that we see jacks favorite memory the dozy embrace to me this is the most powerful, deep and spiritual moment in the film and shows against all else jack is holding on to every piece and memory of ennis he can this is also shown by the shirts in his closet. its just to sad that in the dozy embrace ennis was riding off after saying see you in the morning and after the confrontation scene he is driving away without a word unknowing it would be the last time he would see jack.
well in life anyway.

sorry if you cant understand my point i sometimes make no sense when i right aout something im so emotional about.

Offline tpe

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Re: Buddhism: transience of love
« Reply #36 on: Mar 12, 2008, 08:25 AM »
Hi tpe!

Buddhism repudiates bothe the "desire" for love and the "desire" for the feeling of love, I think, rather than either "love" or even the "feeling of love," themselves.  It is "desire" that is the cause of suffering - whatever it is that is desired (as a craving). 

It's not "love" or the "feeling of love," themselves, that are causes of suffering.  Again, it is not "love" that is the problem but rather an "attachment" to love.

Just because I wasn't sure what a "bodhisattva" is, myself, I looked it up on Wikipedia.
There are a variety of definitions for "bodhisattva," depending upon the school of Buddhism.  In some, a "bodhisattva" is someone whose preceding reincarnated lifetimes lead up to Buddhist "enlightenment."  Others, such as Tibetan Buddhism (a form of Mahayana Buddhism, one of the two great divisions in Buddhist thought, Theravada Buddhism being the other), describe a "bodhisattva" as someone who aspires to become enlightened as soon as possible and, once enlightened, help others to do so, too.

I thought I knew what the difference between Mahayana and Theravada Buddhism was - before, I read what struck me as scholarly, theologically detailed entries for them in Wikipedia.  Using the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary for definitions of them, Mahayana Buddhism is "a liberal and theistic branch of Buddhism comprising sects chiefly in China and Japan, recognizing a large body of scripture in addition to the Pali canon, and teaching social concern and universal salvation [for all sentient beings]" and Theravada Buddhism is "a conservative branch of Buddhism comprising sects chiefly in Sri Lanka, Myanmar, Thailand, Laos, and Cambodia and adhering to the original Pali scriptures alone and to the nontheistic ideal of nirvana for a limited select number [of people]." 

As far as I can tell, Wikipedia and the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary are substantially in agreement about what a "bodhisattva" is.  The Mahayana tradition believes that all sentient beings are destined for "enlightenment" eventually, in one lifetime or another (however distant in the future that might be).  Within all of us is a "Buddha-nature," an inherent part of ourselves attracted to Buddhist principles.  According to Wikipedia, "The Buddha Nature or Buddha Principle (Buddha-dhatu) is taught to be a truly real, but internally hidden potency or element within the purest depths of the mind, present in all sentient beings, for awakening and becoming a Buddha."  Wikipedia continues, "The Tibetan Jonangpa monk, Dolpopa, refers to the Buddha-nature as "Self always residing in all, as the selfhood of all" (Mountain Doctrine: Tibet's Fundamental Treatise on Other-Emptiness and the Buddha Matrix, tr. by Jeffrey Hopkins, Snow Lion, New York, 2006, p.135)."

Zen, which like Tibetan Buddhism, is also Mahayana, places less emphasis on "bodhisattvas."  Wikipedia says Zen also "de-emphasizes theoretical knowledge and the study of religious texts in favor of direct individual experience of one's own true nature."  Zen is instead "notable" for its use of "mindful acceptance of the present moment, spontaneous action, and letting go of self-conscious, judgmental thinking."

bodhisattva (Wikipedia):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva

Mahayana Buddhism (m-w.com)
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Mahayana

Theravada Buddhism (m-w.com)
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/theravada

Buddha-nature (Wikipedia)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha-nature

Zen (Wikipedia)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen

 

Hello jetzenpolis.  Thank for taking the time to look up the notion of bodhisattvas, which I think has some relevance to our discussion.  Central I think to many of the interpretations is the resolve of these beings not to enter Nirvana before expounding the Law to all sentient beings.  In most cases, it is from compassion (which is a form of love) that they do this.

An extreme case would Amida Buddhisim, where the invocation of the sacred name "namu Amida Batsu" is sufficient to guarantee salvation (i.e., freedom from the cycle of death and rebirth).  And all this is done out of compassion.

But going back to the subject of Ennis and Jack...

In some ways, I look upon Jack's death as the moment of satori (as in Zen/Chan Buddhism) whereby Ennis is released from his own world of illusion.  But this anaolgy has its limits, because what happens after this is that Ennis seems to enter into another world of illusion -- a world of dreams alternating between pleasure and pain.

In the latter sense, one can think of BBM as a Buddhist moral: as a warning on the pitfalls of passion and the subsequent pain it engenders.  It is very similar for example to the Buddhist interpretation of the medieval Japanese romance "Genji Monogatari", of which I am a devoted fan.  In such works of art, the beauty of love is made manifest, even as it undermines it as part of a world of illusion.

As you can see, there is a deep dichotomy in all this -- especially in the attitude towards love.


Offline tpe

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Re: Buddhism: transience of love
« Reply #37 on: Mar 12, 2008, 08:33 AM »
I was wondering was Jack closest to the Buddhist tenet than Ennis was.  In the final confrontation didn't you get the idea that Jack was releasing himself from Ennis so Ennis's suffering can end?  I can't help but think of scene where Jack watches Ennis drive off for the last time.

I do think that in the End, one can say that Jack was -- he perhaps saw things in a way that released him from the bond, without having to condemn it.

As I had said in my earlier post, I am torn between a dual interpretation of Ennis's "end".  The fact that he continued to live in a world of dreams may indicate that he was still enmeshed in the world of pain and desire.


Offline jetzenpolis

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Ennis's: illusions in dreams of Jack
« Reply #38 on: Mar 13, 2008, 07:39 PM »


But going back to the subject of Ennis and Jack...

In some ways, I look upon Jack's death as the moment of satori (as in Zen/Chan Buddhism) whereby Ennis is released from his own world of illusion.  But this analogy has its limits, because what happens after this is that Ennis seems to enter into another world of illusion -- a world of dreams alternating between pleasure and pain.

In the latter sense, one can think of BBM as a Buddhist moral: as a warning on the pitfalls of passion and the subsequent pain it engenders.  It is very similar for example to the Buddhist interpretation of the medieval Japanese romance "Genji Monogatari", of which I am a devoted fan.  In such works of art, the beauty of love is made manifest, even as it undermines it as part of a world of illusion.

As you can see, there is a deep dichotomy in all this -- especially in the attitude towards love.



Thank you tpe for your views on what a Buddhist perspective on Brokeback Mountain might be.  They've certainly given me much to think about, even if we might differ about "love" and the Buddhist search for a (universal) transcendence of "suffering." 

(In Buddhist tradition, Siddhārtha Gautama, the first Buddha, was a prince.  His father, a king, was told by an astrologer that his son would either be a "universal leader" or a "universal teacher."  His father, in order to make his son a universal ruler, sought to eliminate all sights of physical suffering from his son's life.  But the prince saw the carcass of a cow and sought an answer to suffering.  I believe there are versions of this same story, too.)

You might be reluctant to embrace a Buddhist view because you correctly see Buddhism's primary goal (value) as the "end of suffering."  From my understanding of what you've said, this brings Buddhism into conflict with "love" as a first principle (in a ranking of a hierarchy of values).  Perhaps you also associate the "desire" for love with a "devotion" to love.

From a Buddhist perspective, such an association linking "desire" and "devotion" might be a misperception, an illusion.  Certainly, for example, Buddhists are devoted to the end of suffering.  But to "desire" an end to suffering would be self-defeating - in the Buddhist perspective.

Similarly, a "desire" for love might be confused with a "devotion" to love.

I think manhattangirl makes a good point. ("...In the final confrontation didn't you get the idea that Jack was releasing himself from Ennis so Ennis's suffering can end?  I can't help but think of scene where Jack watches Ennis drive off for the last time.") 

There can be different interpretations of this last scene of Ennis & Jack seeing each other for the last time.  Ennis has just told Jack, "...I quit all those jobs," saying that "because of you [Jack], I'm nothing..." (offering to Jack an explanation of seeing him less frequently now than Ennis had in the early years of his marriage to Alma).

If Jack takes at face value what Ennis is saying to him, he is hearing Ennis tell him that the "thing" (as Ennis describes the emotions of their kiss at the bottom of the steps going up to Ennis's & Alma's apartment over the laundromat in Riverton, WY) has brought Ennis to this point of suffering (in the May 1983 argument).  Is there much point in continuing their ride further?

From this interpretation of their May 1983 argument, Jack's favorite memory of Ennis (holding him from behind, rocking him into a trance, humming him a song...) is a last temptation, a last tie holding him to Ennis that he decides to break.  (Jack, after the flashback, watches Ennis drive off with great sadness in his eyes.)

Jack decides to give up the pleasure that Ennis's company brings him.  He does this out of his devotion to Ennis's welfare.  He loves Ennis more than the "feeling" of romantic passion Ennis brings to him.  (In other words, Jack loves Ennis more than what the "thing," as Ennis describes it, brings to both of them.)  Devotion to Ennis (out of love for him) decides the question for Jack.  He must leave Ennis to do what is "right" by him.  Jack does what he thinks is in Ennis's best interest.

While I think I disagree this is the best interpretation of what is going on in Jack's mind - in response to Ennis saying ("...because of you [Jack], I'm nothing!") - it nonetheless clearly illustrates the difference between a "desire" for love and a "devotion" to it.

I don't think Ennis wanted Jack to stop seeing him.  After all, Ennis sent a postcard to Jack in Texas to tell him that November was "still" set for them (to see each other) that is returned marked "deceased."  Ennis wanted to continue his "ride" with Jack.

I think Ennis wanted to see Jack on his own terms (and not more often than that).  Ennis started seeing Jack less frequently.  This may have happened after his divorce from Alma because a part of him needed the "balance" of his marriage to Alma to keep seeing Jack.  In other words, without Alma as a counterbalance, Ennis wanted to hold himself back from Jack. 

It might be said that this is a matter of Ennis being homophobic about his own homosexuality.  I feel it might be something more.

I find  I best understand who Ennis is when he's with Alma, not when he's with Jack.  With Alma, all sides of Ennis's personality (good and bad) come out.  It's possible to see the whole human being.  With Alma, Ennis's emotions are better tempered, more restrained because of what Alma's personality contributes to their marriage partnership. 

Alma is willing to go to great lengths to make their marriage "work."  Ennis rushes the girls into the grocery store where Alma is working, dropping them off so he can go to a ranch job he's just been called to.  Alma, taken by surprise, protests.  She quickly regains her composure and suggests to Ennis she can call her sister to take care of them.  Their young daughter, Alma, Jr., pulls a jar out of a stack of jars causing them to collapse.  Instead of exploding in frustration and rage, she apologizes to Monroe, the grocer, her employer.

Nor does Alma immediately confront Ennis upon his return from his night out with Jack (spent at the Siesta Motel together in bed) when Ennis & Jack reunite at the bottom of the landing steps up to their apartment over the laundromat.  She saw them kissing each other through the screen door.  She's deeply hurt.  She barely holds back her tears.   She "knows what she saw," as Annie Proulx puts it.  But she doesn't get in a fight with Ennis about it when he returns the next morning (with Ennis immediately leaving, again, almost as soon as he walks in the door, to go on his first "fishing trip" with Jack).  She also fails to discuss it with him (until it's too late and only brings up her suspicions in their Thanksgiving kitchen argument).  She does what she thinks will hold their marriage together.

With Jack, it's different.  The emotions between them are so strong that it is the "feeling of emotion" between them that dominates them when they are with each other.  Their personalities, the differences in their personalities seemed to be pushed aside.

In her narration of their May 1983 argument, Annie Proulx describes the fissure that opens up between Ennis & Jack as "clouds of steam" pouring out of vents cracking, rupturing the ground they stand on, releasing all the differences of opinion, disappointments, etc. between them that they had covered up and pushed aside over all the years they had been together.  After the argument, Ennis & Jack had "patched things up almost to the way the way they were before."  The important word in Annie Proulx's phrasing is "almost" (to the way things were before). 

When Jack goes next to his parents' ranch in Lightning Flat, WY, he tells them his plans for who he wants to bring in as a ranch partner (on the Twist family ranch) have changed.  He's now saying he's bringing in a Texas ranch neighbor (not Ennis del Mar).

I don't whether Jack decides at last, despite his flashback to his favorite memory of Ennis, that he must "quit" Ennis (in favor of Randall, his Texas ranch neighbor).  Perhaps the decision is made later. 

Jack, once too many times, watches Ennis leave him.  Perhaps the sadness of seeing him go finally produces a resolve that Jack must end the loneliness he can sometimes hardly stand that he feels for Ennis.  In either case, earlier or later, or whenever it happens, Jack chooses an end to his suffering rather than continuing to ride with Ennis.

But Randall is no escape from illusion or suffering, either.  You described the Buddhist metaphor of a "bridge of dreams."  Jack crosses that bridge.  He leaves the illusion of his dreams of a life together with Ennis (or the illusion of his passion for Ennis that the "thing" gives them). 

For a moment, crossing this bridge away from Ennis, Jack sees the pointlessness of the suffering of the loneliness he feels when he's not together with Ennis.  But rather than renounce suffering, Jack continues over the bridge of dreams to the next dream, a similar illusion with Randall, perhaps.

With Jack gone, Ennis is left with his night dreams of Jack.  Sometimes the pillows are wet, at other times, it's the sheets that are wet.  On a good day, Ennis has dreamed of Jack the night before as: he was at 19, wavy hair and buck teeth.  On a bad day, the "garish" can of beans with a dirty spoon sticking out of it sitting on a log has marred the dreams.  Is the "garish" can of beans (with the dirty spoon sticking out it), the mature Jack (with a mustache and fixed teeth)?  Ennis cries on those nights.  Is it the mature Jack he misses most?

Ennis is caught between what he "knows" and what he "tries to make himself believe" (wishes to believe).  In the last scene in the movie, the screen is split between an old photograph of Brokeback Mountain and the view of a field of "amber grain" outside Ennis's trailer bedroom window. 

Jack told Ennis in their May 1983 argument that Brokeback Mountain is "all we have" (seeing each other only a few times for a short time in the following years).  Ennis holds the two bloody shirts to his face (that Jack has saved from their last day on Brokeback Mt. together when Jack accidentally bloodied Ennis's nose and Ennis knocked Jack out when Jack tried to staunch the bleeding - with Ennis left asking himself in the years before their 1967 reunion at the bottom of the landing steps leading up to Ennis's & Alma's apartment over the laundromat if Jack never tried to contact him because he was angry Ennis had hit him then).  But he can't catch the scent of Brokeback Mt.  It has vanished.

Brokeback Mt. is only a memory.  It has faded with time.

The world outside Ennis's bedroom window is there now, in the "present moment," to use a Zen phrase. 

I remember reading a post soon after the movie was first released in December 2005 describing Ennis's choice as being between "Brokeback Mountain" and the "pollution of the plains."  But the flat field of waving grass is what is there for Ennis.  Buddhism describes a reed growing in a field as having the "strength" to withstand a hurricane because it bends in the wind.  The grass outside moves back and forth, the wind rippling across it in waves.     
« Last Edit: Mar 16, 2008, 03:10 PM by jetzenpolis »
In the distance between what you "try to believe" and what you "know": never trust what you try to make yourself believe; trust what your intuition knows.

Offline tpe

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Re: Ennis's: illusions in dreams of Jack
« Reply #39 on: Mar 14, 2008, 09:03 AM »
Thank you tpe for your views on what a Buddhist perspective on Brokeback Mountain might be.  They've certainly given me much to think about, even if we might differ about "love" and the Buddhist search for a (universal) transcendence of "suffering." 

(In Buddhist tradition, Siddhārtha Gautama, the first Buddha, was a prince.  His father, a king, was told by an astrologer that his son would either be a "universal leader" or a "universal teacher."  His father, in order to make his son a universal ruler, sought to eliminate all sights of physical suffering from his son's life.  But the prince saw the carcass of a cow and sought an answer to suffering.  I believe there are versions of this same story, too.)

You might be reluctant to embrace a Buddhist view because you correctly see Buddhism's primary goal (value) as the "end of suffering."  From my understanding of what you've said, this brings Buddhism into conflict with "love" as a first principle (in a ranking of a hierarchy of values).  Perhaps you also associate the "desire" for love with a "devotion" to love.

From a Buddhist perspective, such an association linking "desire" and "devotion" might be a misperception, an illusion.  Certainly, for example, Buddhists are devoted to the end of suffering.  But to "desire" an end to suffering would be self-defeating - in the Buddhist perspective.

Similarly, a "desire" for love might be confused with a "devotion" to love.

I think manhattangirl makes a good point. ("...In the final confrontation didn't you get the idea that Jack was releasing himself from Ennis so Ennis's suffering can end?  I can't help but think of scene where Jack watches Ennis drive off for the last time.") 

There can be different interpretations of this last scene of Ennis & Jack seeing each other for the last time.  Ennis has just told Jack, "...I quit all those jobs," saying that "because of you [Jack], I'm nothing..." (offering to Jack an explanation of seeing him less frequently now than in the early years of his marriage to Alma).

If Jack takes at face value what Ennis is saying to him, he is hearing Ennis telling him that the "thing" between him and Ennis has brought Ennis to this point of suffering.  Is there much point in continuing their ride further?

From this interpretation of their May 1983 argument, Jack's favorite memory of Ennis (holding him from behind, rocking him into a trance, humming him a song...) is a last temptation, a last tie holding him to Ennis that he decides to break.  (Jack, after the flashback, watches Ennis drive off with great sadness in his eyes.)

Jack decides to give up the pleasure that Ennis's company brings him out of his devotion to Ennis's welfare.  He loves Ennis more than the "feeling" of romantic passion Ennis brings to him (that, in fact, the "thing," as Ennis describes it, brings to both of them).  Devotion to Ennis (out of love for him) decides the question for Jack.  He must leave Ennis to do what is "right" by him.  Jack does what he thinks is in Ennis's best interest.

While I think I disagree this is the best interpretation of what is going on in Jack's mind in response to Ennis saying ("...because of you [Jack], I'm nothing!"), it nonetheless clearly illustrates the difference between a "desire" for love and a "devotion" to it.

I don't think Ennis wanted Jack to stop seeing him.  After all, it is the postcard Ennis sent to Jack to tell him that November was "still" set for them (to see each other) that is returned marked "deceased."  Ennis wanted to continue his "ride" with Jack.

I think Ennis wanted to see Jack on his own terms (and not more often than that).  Ennis may have started seeing Jack less frequently after his divorce because a part of him needed the "balance" of his marriage to Alma to keep seeing Jack.  Without Alma as a counterbalance, Ennis wanted to hold himself back from Jack.  It might be said that this is a matter of Ennis being homophobic about his own homosexuality.  I feel it might be something more.


I find  I best understand who Ennis is when he's with Alma, not when he's with Jack.  With Alma, all sides of Ennis's personality (good and bad) come out.  It's possible to see the whole human being.  With Alma, Ennis's emotions are better tempered, more restrained because of what Alma's personality contributes to their marriage partnership. 

Alma is willing to go to great lengths to make their marriage "work."  Ennis rushes the girls into the grocery store where Alma is working, dropping them off so he can go to a ranch job he's just been called to.  Alma, taken by surprise, protests.  She quickly regains her composure and suggests she can call her sister to take care of them.  Alma, Jr. pulls a jar out of a stack of jars causing them to collapse.  Instead of exploding in frustration and rage, she apologizes to Monroe, the grocer, her employer.

Nor does Alma immediately confront Ennis upon his return from his night out with Jack (spent at the Siesta Motel together in bed) when Ennis & Jack reunite at the bottom of the landing steps up to their apartment over the laundromat.  She saw them kissing each other through the screen door.  She's deeply hurt.  She barely holds back her tears.   She "knows what she saw," as Annie Proulx puts it.  But she doesn't get in a fight with Ennis about it when he returns (to immediately go on his first "fishing trip" with Jack).  She also fails to discuss it with him (until it's too late and only brings up her suspicions in their Thanksgiving kitchen argument).  She does what she thinks will hold their marriage together.

With Jack, it's different.  The emotions between them are so strong that it is the "feeling of emotion" between them that dominates them when they are with each other.  Their personalities, the differences in their personalities seemed to be pushed aside.

In her narration of their May 1983 argument, Annie Proulx describes the fissure that opens up between Ennis & Jack as "clouds of steam" pouring out of vents cracking, rupturing the ground they stand on, releasing all the differences of opinion, disappointments, etc. between them that they had covered up and pushed aside over all the years they had been together.  After the argument, Ennis & Jack had "patched things up almost to the way the way they were before."  The important word in her phrasing is "almost" (to the way things were before).  When Jack goes next to his parents' ranch in Lightning Flat, WY, he tells them his plans for who he wants to bring in as a ranch partner on the Twist family ranch have changed, saying he's bringing a Texas ranch neighbor.

I don't whether Jack decides at last despite his flashback to his favorite memory of Ennis that he must "quit" Ennis (in favor of Randall, his Texas ranch neighbor).  Perhaps the decision is made later.  Jack, once too many times, watches Ennis leave him.  Perhaps the sadness of seeing him go finally produces a resolve that Jack must end the loneliness he can sometimes hardly stand that he feels for Ennis.  In either case, Jack chooses an end to his suffering rather than continuing to ride with Ennis.

But Randall is no escape from illusion or suffering, either.  You described the Buddhist metaphor of a "bridge of dreams."  Jack crosses that bridge.  He leaves the illusion of his dreams of a life together with Ennis (or the illusion of his passion for Ennis the "thing" gives them).  For a moment, crossing this bridge away from Ennis, Jack sees the pointlessness of the suffering of the loneliness he feels when he's not together with Ennis.  But rather than renounce suffering, Jack continues over the bridge of dreams to the next dreams, a similar illusion with Randall, perhaps.

With Jack gone, Ennis is left with his night dreams of Jack.  Sometimes the pillows are wet, at other times, it's the sheets that are wet.  On a good day, Ennis has dreamed of Jack the night before: as he was at 19, wavy hair and buck teeth.  On a bad day, the "garish" can of beans with a dirty spoon sticking out of it sitting on a log has marred the dreams.  Is the "garish" can of beans (with the dirty spoon sticking out it), the mature Jack (with a mustache and fixed teeth)?  Ennis cries on those nights.  Is it the mature Jack he misses most?

Ennis is caught between what he "knows" and what he "tries to make himself believe" (wishes to believe).  In the last scene in the movie, the screen is split between an old photograph of Brokeback Mountain and the view of a field of "amber grain" outside Ennis's trailer bedroom window.  Jack told Ennis in their May 1983 argument that Brokeback Mountain is "all we have" (seeing each other only a few times for a short time in the following years).  Ennis holds the two bloody shirts to his face (that Jack has saved from their last day on Brokeback Mt. together when Jack accidentally bloodied Ennis's nose and Ennis knocked him out when Jack tried to staunch the bleeding - with Ennis left asking himself in the years before their 1967 reunion at the bottom of the landing steps leading up to Ennis's & Alma's apartment over the laundromat if Jack never tried to contact him because he was angry Ennis had hit him).  But he can't catch the scent of Brokeback Mt.  It has vanished.

Brokeback Mt. is only a memory.  It has faded with time.

The world outside Ennis's bedroom window is there now, in the "present moment," to use a zen phrase. 

I remember reading a post soon after the movie was first released in December 2005 describing Ennis's choice as being between "Brokeback Mountain" and the "pollution of the plains."  But the flat field of waving grass is what is there for Ennis.  Buddhism describes a reed growing in a field as having the "strength" to withstand a hurricane because it bends in the wind.  The grass outside moves back and forth, the wind rippling across it in waves.     

I find myself reacting to the part of your post illustrating your point using the last confrontation.

Whatever distinction we make between desire and devotion, perhaps it is love itself that is at work, in spite of themselves.  As with Hölderlin:

Trennen wollten wir uns? wähnten es gut und klug?
Da wirs taten, warum schröckte, wie Mord, die Tat?
Ach! wir kennen uns wenig,
Denn es waltet ein Gott in uns.


(So we wanted to part, thought it clever and good,
That we did it, why did it shock us like murder, the deed?
Oh, we know ourselves little
For a god is at work in us.)






 

athena0204

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I guess I'm of a different belief,  I don't know if I would call what Ennis felt for Alma was love.  He cared for her, he liked her, she suited him.  Ennis married her, that's what you're suppose to do.  His brother and sister did it.  He was nineteen, on his own, "there was no room for him" anywhere.

When he met Jack, he fell in love, not knowing what this feeling for this man was until a year after they split up from the mountain, he knew than he shouldn't have let him go. 

My personal opinion, I don't think he was fearing a scene when Jack came back, I think Ennis was planning to keep Jack all to himself, just like on the mountain, Alma was beginning to be shut out. She was part of his life that he was stuck with, and nothing much to he could do about it.   

I know it's popular here to think that Ennis loved Alma, in some way.  As if it had to make sense for him to even marry her.  But Ennis had a philosophy "I'll stick to beans", and Ennis stuck with what was expected of him. 

 

Yeah, that's exactly how I feel about Ennis's relationship with Alma. A lot of people who get married don't really love each other. Before he met Jack, Ennis had convinced himself he loved Alma. After he met Jack, he realized he'd been lying to himself, and that Jack was his one true love. But he just married Alma because it was what was expected of him. He wasn't happy about it, but like he said "If you can't fix it, you just gotta stand it." He was trapped, and that was the only thing society would allow him to do. Alma was the life that Ennis felt forced into by society, Jack was the life that was real, and that Ennis would have chosen if he were free, but he felt he wasn't, so he had to endure his life with Alma. In the end, he realizes that he should have just not been afraid, and that he should have fought to be free, rather than pretended to be something he wasn't just to please others. He endured years of suffering quietly inside, and in the end he realized that it wasn't worth it. He realized he should have spent those years being happy with his one true love, Jack. He lived a life full of sorrow and regret, and that's why though my heart breaks for both Ennis and Jack, I always feel sadder for Ennis.
« Last Edit: Mar 16, 2008, 02:09 AM by athena0204 »

manhattangirl

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Yeah, that's exactly how I feel about Ennis's relationship with Alma. A lot of people who get married don't really love each other. Before he met Jack, Ennis had convinced himself he loved Alma. After he met Jack, he realized he'd been lying to himself, and that Jack was his one true love. But he just married Alma because it was what was expected of him. He wasn't happy about it, but like he said "If you can't fix it, you just gotta stand it." He was trapped, and that was the only thing society would allow him to do. Alma was the life that Ennis felt forced into by society, Jack was the life that was real, and that Ennis would have chosen if he were free, but he felt he wasn't, so he had to endure his life with Alma. In the end, he realizes that he should have just not been afraid, and that he should have fought to be free, rather than pretended to be something he wasn't just to please others. He endured years of suffering quietly inside, and in the end he realized that it wasn't worth it. He realized he should have spent those years being happy with his one true love, Jack. He lived a life full of sorrow and regret, and that's why though my heart breaks for both Ennis and Jack, I always feel sadder for Ennis.

So true, marriage is such a complicated thing, emotions, motives, social mores, why one gets married can be ignored by the  idea of "happily ever after".   And also the idea that one day one can awaken and realize that this was the biggest mistake they've ever made and live in quite desperation, and which Ennis found himself in.  In the ss Ennis lamented how he should have never let Jack get away, but what would have been his alternative, to hop in Jack's pick up on that last day on Brokeback that first summer and go with him to LF?   

Ennis's "suffering", his inability to recognize it, and release himself from it brought so much suffering to Jack and Alma.  He learned that all too late.

athena0204

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After he met Jack,
So true, marriage is such a complicated thing, emotions, motives, social mores, why one gets married can be ignored by the  idea of "happily ever after".   And also the idea that one day one can awaken and realize that this was the biggest mistake they've ever made and live in quite desperation, and which Ennis found himself in.  In the ss Ennis lamented how he should have never let Jack get away, but what would have been his alternative, to hop in Jack's pick up on that last day on Brokeback that first summer and go with him to LF?  

Ennis's "suffering", his inability to recognize it, and release himself from it brought so much suffering to Jack and Alma.  He learned that all too late.

After Ennis met Jack, he didn't want to think about a life without him...but of course in the back of his mind, he knew the day would come when they had to part ways. That's why Ennis fought with Jack on their last day, and that's why he was so distraught after he said goodbye to Jack and started walking down the road. Ennis didn't know how he was going to go back to Alma, to the life that was expected of him, he knew he would be miserable. Ennis didn't know how he was going to live a day without Jack. All he knew was that it was what he felt he had to do, because he didn't have a choice, he wasn't free. Jack didn't know how he was going to live without Ennis either, and that's why he tells Ennis exactly where he will be for the next several months, he hopes Ennis will come with him and they would always be together from then on. So he told him he would be at his parents' house hoping Ennis would take the hint and come with him. Believe me, Ennis wanted to do exactly that, he wanted to go with Jack and never be apart from him...but he felt it was something he could never do, he could never have that beautiful life, no matter how much he wanted it. Memories of the gruesomely murdered Earl flashed in his mind, and he didn't want neither himself nor Jack to suffer a heinous death like that. That's why he becomes physically sick...he's just said goodbye to the man he loves, to his one true love, his soulmate, and it's killing him inside knowing he's not going to see him anymore, but he feels like there's nothing he can do. Ennis is torn between being true to himself and living the life he wants, needs, and deserves, having true love and happiness forever with Jack, and what might happen if anyone found out...that they might brutally murder him for it. He's stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Offline Matt Nasty

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After he met Jack,
After Ennis met Jack, he didn't want to think about a life without him...but of course in the back of his mind, he knew the day would come when they had to part ways. That's why Ennis fought with Jack on their last day, and that's why he was so distraught after he said goodbye to Jack and started walking down the road. Ennis didn't know how he was going to go back to Alma, to the life that was expected of him, he knew he would be miserable. Ennis didn't know how he was going to live a day without Jack. All he knew was that it was what he felt he had to do, because he didn't have a choice, he wasn't free. Jack didn't know how he was going to live without Ennis either, and that's why he tells Ennis exactly where he will be for the next several months, he hopes Ennis will come with him and they would always be together from then on. So he told him he would be at his parents' house hoping Ennis would take the hint and come with him. Believe me, Ennis wanted to do exactly that, he wanted to go with Jack and never be apart from him...but he felt it was something he could never do, he could never have that beautiful life, no matter how much he wanted it. Memories of the gruesomely murdered Earl flashed in his mind, and he didn't want neither himself nor Jack to suffer a heinous death like that. That's why he becomes physically sick...he's just said goodbye to the man he loves, to his one true love, his soulmate, and it's killing him inside knowing he's not going to see him anymore, but he feels like there's nothing he can do. Ennis is torn between being true to himself and living the life he wants, needs, and deserves, having true love and happiness forever with Jack, and what might happen if anyone found out...that they might brutally murder him for it. He's stuck between a rock and a hard place.

im begining to realise why your username is athena you are so wise :)

Offline myprivatejack

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I can't do anything but quote all what you have said,Athena; wonderfully stated¡  :clap: But I only wanted to add a little observation: I've always thought that Ennis fought with Jack on their last day on the mountain as a kind of relief in his nervous state...Jack wanted to remove dramatic quality to the situation on one hand due to his cheerful way of being and on the other hand,because he saw Ennis was more devastated than him,or at least Ennis showed this devastation in a deeper way than Jack...And I thought that Ennis,always more closed in his reactions and in his way of showing his inner feelings,reacted so because he knew that they never see each other again down on the mountain.As you say,he knew from the beginning there would be an end;while Jack,always a dreamer,thought and believed that there would be an continuation in real life.For this reason,he felt happier inside-what I must confess surprised me the first time I saw the movie,because Jack had always been so demonstrative that I believed that he would be the most broken down of the two...-and wanted to play with his friend,what woke up this lasts wraths...IMO this was the first deception Jack got from Ennis...
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

manhattangirl

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After he met Jack,
After Ennis met Jack, he didn't want to think about a life without him...but of course in the back of his mind, he knew the day would come when they had to part ways. That's why Ennis fought with Jack on their last day, and that's why he was so distraught after he said goodbye to Jack and started walking down the road. Ennis didn't know how he was going to go back to Alma, to the life that was expected of him, he knew he would be miserable. Ennis didn't know how he was going to live a day without Jack. All he knew was that it was what he felt he had to do, because he didn't have a choice, he wasn't free. Jack didn't know how he was going to live without Ennis either, and that's why he tells Ennis exactly where he will be for the next several months, he hopes Ennis will come with him and they would always be together from then on. So he told him he would be at his parents' house hoping Ennis would take the hint and come with him. Believe me, Ennis wanted to do exactly that, he wanted to go with Jack and never be apart from him...but he felt it was something he could never do, he could never have that beautiful life, no matter how much he wanted it. Memories of the gruesomely murdered Earl flashed in his mind, and he didn't want neither himself nor Jack to suffer a heinous death like that. That's why he becomes physically sick...he's just said goodbye to the man he loves, to his one true love, his soulmate, and it's killing him inside knowing he's not going to see him anymore, but he feels like there's nothing he can do. Ennis is torn between being true to himself and living the life he wants, needs, and deserves, having true love and happiness forever with Jack, and what might happen if anyone found out...that they might brutally murder him for it. He's stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Again, I can't argue at what you're expressing, I'm just looking at it in a different way.   There are implications to what we do, our fears, prejudices, self-doubt, possessive love, jealousy, grief, and how it affects us and those around us.  Ennis is the epicenter of all that went on in the story, and his words, actions, decision had such profound effect on all those closest to him.   

In my humble opinion when Ennis agrees to go to Alma wedding, he for the first time in life, is going beyond himself, to release his own suffering so Alma, Jr. would not have to suffer, remember how he look when she was disappointed that he might not come to her wedding, he finally got it.  He didn't want her to have the pain of him refusing again something she requested.   This is a sign of hope that Ennis could get beyond his pain, and make someone else happy.   To make someone else happy.  It takes great courage to go beyond the pain.

Just my take.

athena0204

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I can't do anything but quote all what you have said,Athena; wonderfully stated¡  :clap: But I only wanted to add a little observation: I've always thought that Ennis fought with Jack on their last day on the mountain as a kind of relief in his nervous state...Jack wanted to remove dramatic quality to the situation on one hand due to his cheerful way of being and on the other hand,because he saw Ennis was more devastated than him,or at least Ennis showed this devastation in a deeper way than Jack...And I thought that Ennis,always more closed in his reactions and in his way of showing his inner feelings,reacted so because he knew that they never see each other again down on the mountain.As you say,he knew from the beginning there would be an end;while Jack,always a dreamer,thought and believed that there would be an continuation in real life.For this reason,he felt happier inside-what I must confess surprised me the first time I saw the movie,because Jack had always been so demonstrative that I believed that he would be the most broken down of the two...-and wanted to play with his friend,what woke up this lasts wraths...IMO this was the first deception Jack got from Ennis...


Yes, exactly. Jack, being the dreamer, wasn't upset on the last day because he really thought Ennis would come with him that day and they would never be apart. Ennis gets upset and fights with Jack because he realizes that their time on Brokeback Mountain has run out, and he would have to say goodbye to Jack, something he didn't want to do, but felt he had no choice but to do so. When Jack realizes that Ennis isn't coming with him, his heart sank. He deliberately tells Ennis where he will be, hoping that Ennis will come. I don't think that Jack ever thought Ennis wouldn't come with him that day, until the moment Ennis said goodbye and walks away. Jack just sits in his truck, watching Ennis out of the side mirror and looking like he's about to cry.

athena0204

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Again, I can't argue at what you're expressing, I'm just looking at it in a different way.   There are implications to what we do, our fears, prejudices, self-doubt, possessive love, jealousy, grief, and how it affects us and those around us.  Ennis is the epicenter of all that went on in the story, and his words, actions, decision had such profound effect on all those closest to him.   

In my humble opinion when Ennis agrees to go to Alma wedding, he for the first time in life, is going beyond himself, to release his own suffering so Alma, Jr. would not have to suffer, remember how he look when she was disappointed that he might not come to her wedding, he finally got it.  He didn't want her to have the pain of him refusing again something she requested.   This is a sign of hope that Ennis could get beyond his pain, and make someone else happy.   To make someone else happy.  It takes great courage to go beyond the pain.

Just my take.

That's why I feel so sad for Ennis at the end...because he's such a tragic character. In the end, he hates himself for not listening to his heart because he realizes the sorrow, pain, and despair it caused Jack to feel. All that time, he thought he was just protecting both himself and Jack from a cruel society that he felt sure would brutally murder them if it knew they were together...but in the end he realizes that his fear just caused both of them to suffer and be miserable. He hates himself for hurting Jack and wishes he could start again, have another chance, and this time do things right, this time never make the mistake of marrying Alma, this time never letting Jack out of his sight, this time never saying goodbye to Jack after they came down from Brokeback Mountain that first summer.

Offline Matt Nasty

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That's why I feel so sad for Ennis at the end...because he's such a tragic character. In the end, he hates himself for not listening to his heart because he realizes the sorrow, pain, and despair it caused Jack to feel. All that time, he thought he was just protecting both himself and Jack from a cruel society that he felt sure would brutally murder them if it knew they were together...but in the end he realizes that his fear just caused both of them to suffer and be miserable. He hates himself for hurting Jack and wishes he could start again, have another chance, and this time do things right, this time never make the mistake of marrying Alma, this time never letting Jack out of his sight, this time never saying goodbye to Jack after they came down from Brokeback Mountain that first summer.
i agree

athena0204

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im begining to realise why your username is athena you are so wise :)

Awww, thanks.  :)

Offline jetzenpolis

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Ennis & Jack: Last Day on Brokeback Mt.
« Reply #50 on: Mar 23, 2008, 02:46 PM »
On their last day on Brokeback Mt., when Ennis punches Jack, he strikes at the moment Jack is tenderly staunching Ennis's bleeding nose.  (In Annie Proulx's short story, Jack caused Ennis's nosebleed accidentally when he knocked his knee into it while they were having sex.  In the movie, it all starts with Jack playfully lassoing a brooding Ennis.  They begin to "roughhouse" with each other.  But the wrestling suddenly takes a serious take.  Ennis ends up with a bloody nose.)

Is Ennis angry because Jack caused his nosebleed or is he angry because Jack, as his "ministering angel," as Annie Proulx puts it, is tending to him?  Perhaps, Ennis becomes angry at just this moment because somewhere deep inside him, unconsciously understood, he knows how much he loves Jack for Jack's tenderness toward him. 

But he doesn't want to have these feelings for Jack.  Brokeback Mt. is only supposed to be a "one shot deal" (as Ennis told Jack the next evening after the night they first have sex together in the cook camp tent).  Ennis says he "ain't no queer." 

But Ennis now finds he has these feelings for Jack that tell him otherwise.  He knows, again unconsciously, that having these feelings for Jack will bring him incredible loss when they come down from Brokeback Mt. and part.

Of course, Ennis, in someway, is already aware of his feelings for Jack.  He's "pissed" at Joe Aguirre, the ranch manager, for calling them down from the mountain a month early because of an early August snowstorm that Ennis says will soon melt away.  Ennis says he's upset because he'll lose a month's pay.  He goes off in a corner of a meadow and broods. 

But he knows that when they come down from the mountain that he and Jack will no longer be together.  (Their "one shot deal" will be over.)  Then Jack comes to tell him it's time to come down from the mountain (and lassos a reluctant Ennis playfully.  They begin to wrestle...)

When they come down from the mountain, Jack asks Ennis if he plans to work again on Brokeback Mt. next summer.  Obviously, Jack - who has already worked on Brokeback Mt. the year before he worked with Ennis - would be back, again, if Ennis were there, too. 

Jack does come back next summer.  Joe Aguirre tells him he doesn't have a job for him.  Jack asks if Ennis del Mar has been around.  Joe Aguirre says that he and Ennis spent too much time "stemming the rose," not minding the herd.  Jack takes off for Texas, his homosexuality exposed.

Ennis is not fully conscious of his feelings for Jack.  He thinks that he had the dry heaves from a hangover in Signal, WY after he and Jack came down from Brokeback Mt. (when he got sick after Jack left for his parents' ranch in Lightning Flat, WY in his pickup truck).  Annie Proulx says it took him a long time before he felt better.

In the short story, in the Siesta Motel, the first night of their reunion in 1967 on the landing steps of Ennis's & Alma's apartment over laundromat in Riverton, WY, Ennis tells Jack it took him about a year to "figure out" what he was feeling (for Jack) that day in Signal, WY, the day when they came down from Brokeback Mt.  But by the time he became consciously aware of his love for Jack, it was too late: he was already married to Alma.
« Last Edit: Mar 23, 2008, 02:55 PM by jetzenpolis »
In the distance between what you "try to believe" and what you "know": never trust what you try to make yourself believe; trust what your intuition knows.

athena0204

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Yeah, I feel so sad for Ennis when he fights with Jack on the last day. You can tell what he's really feeling inside and what he's really upset about. He's not really mad because Aguirre cheated them out of a month's pay. He's upset because he won't be seeing Jack anymore. But he doesn't know how to express this, so he fights with him. I do believe that Ennis always knew it would be a mistake to go back and marry Alma, deep down inside, he knew that, but he just goes back and marries her because he feels he doesn't have a choice. It was what was expected of him, and that pretty much summarizes the tragic flaw in Ennis's character. He was always so afraid of what other people in society would think and say, and even more of what they might do, that he sacrificed his happiness pretending to be something he wasn't, just to please others.

Offline Matt Nasty

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hmm i also feel that the fight was part if ennis' frustration about what he thought was the end of his and jacks relationship and also the fact it came earlier then he expected.

athena0204

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hmm i also feel that the fight was part if ennis' frustration about what he thought was the end of his and jacks relationship and also the fact it came earlier then he expected.

Yeah, that's what I feel it was all about. Jack, the dreamer, didn't think of the day they'd have to come off the mountain, and when he did, it didn't bother him because he could envision in his mind a continuation, never saying goodbye, "riding off into the sunset", so to speak, always being with Ennis no matter what. Jack was an idealist, and he thought "love will find a way and overcome everything". While for poor Ennis, it was always in the back of his mind. He knew that they would eventually have to part ways, because he couldn't see them really being together since society would never allow that. He could see a devastating end to all their dreams, and it upset him deeply, but he didn't know how to express that. So on that last day, all that pent up emotion was let loose in a fight with Jack.

Offline Matt Nasty

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Yeah, that's what I feel it was all about. Jack, the dreamer, didn't think of the day they'd have to come off the mountain, and when he did, it didn't bother him because he could envision in his mind a continuation, never saying goodbye, "riding off into the sunset", so to speak, always being with Ennis no matter what. Jack was an idealist, and he thought "love will find a way and overcome everything". While for poor Ennis, it was always in the back of his mind. He knew that they would eventually have to part ways, because he couldn't see them really being together since society would never allow that. He could see a devastating end to all their dreams, and it upset him deeply, but he didn't know how to express that. So on that last day, all that pent up emotion was let loose in a fight with Jack.
hmmm good way of putting it.

Offline aintfoolin

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hmm i also feel that the fight was part if ennis' frustration about what he thought was the end of his and jacks relationship and also the fact it came earlier then he expected.

I agree with this. From the moment of the news that they had to bring the sheep down from Jack, There seemed to be a progression of anger that says Ennis was'nt ready to let go . Unprepared for what he knew what would eventually have to happen. The timing of the end was too abrupt for him to accept all at once, as he sees Jack packing, happening too fast.

 Ennis leaves the scene to go sit on the hill alone. Perhaps to contemplate his situation and buy more time  to prepare himself. Jack was calm and almost non-chalant about it perhaps to relieve Ennis's panic, Jack's words "time to go cowboy" spelled the end  of his time with Jack.  Time was up and they had to move.,  his violence became the only communication he had. and what Jack thought was a playful wrestling match becomes a fight.
 I feel he felt he could never verbally expresses the way he felt out loud to Jack. Helpless to stop the inevitable, with desperation, he lashes out , as if Jack does'nt get what he's feeling. ( I think Jack knew.)  A way to make Jack understand that he wanted more than anything to stay with him, not  marry a woman whom he cared for,  but was not in love with. He now knew what true love felt like, he no longer had  to find it in Alma. Ennis's demeanor  at the truck back in Signal and the breakdown in the alley, imo is evidence of what he preferred, not necessarily what said.  He'd already found  what he needed  in Jack. Indeed he did what society expected of him, does'nt mean he was satisfied with what he got. Who was still the one  for Ennis after 20 yrs? One guess.
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline Matt Nasty

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I agree with this. From the moment of the news that they had to bring the sheep down from Jack, There seemed to be a progression of anger that says Ennis was'nt ready to let go . Unprepared for what he knew what would eventually have to happen. The timing of the end was too abrupt for him to accept all at once, as he sees Jack packing, happening too fast.

 Ennis leaves the scene to go sit on the hill alone. Perhaps to contemplate his situation and buy more time  to prepare himself. Jack was calm and almost non-chalant about it perhaps to relieve Ennis's panic, Jack's words "time to go cowboy" spelled the end  of his time with Jack.  Time was up and they had to move.,  his violence became the only communication he had. and what Jack thought was a playful wrestling match becomes a fight.
 I feel he felt he could never verbally expresses the way he felt out loud to Jack. Helpless to stop the inevitable, with desperation, he lashes out , as if Jack does'nt get what he's feeling. ( I think Jack knew.)  A way to make Jack understand that he wanted more than anything to stay with him, not  marry a woman whom he cared for,  but was not in love with. He now knew what true love felt like, he no longer had  to find it in Alma. Ennis's demeanor  at the truck back in Signal and the breakdown in the alley, imo is evidence of what he preferred, not necessarily what said.  He'd already found  what he needed  in Jack. Indeed he did what society expected of him, does'nt mean he was satisfied with what he got. Who was still the one  for Ennis after 20 yrs? One guess.

hmmmmmm good points

Offline tpe

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I feel he felt he could never verbally expresses the way he felt out loud to Jack. Helpless to stop the inevitable, with desperation, he lashes out , as if Jack does'nt get what he's feeling. ( I think Jack knew.)  A way to make Jack understand that he wanted more than anything to stay with him, not  marry a woman whom he cared for,  but was not in love with. He now knew what true love felt like, he no longer had  to find it in Alma. Ennis's demeanor  at the truck back in Signal and the breakdown in the alley, imo is evidence of what he preferred, not necessarily what said.  He'd already found  what he needed  in Jack. Indeed he did what society expected of him, does'nt mean he was satisfied with what he got. Who was still the one  for Ennis after 20 yrs? One guess.

The problem with Ennis then was that he believed that stoicism would inevitably lead him to reject his own deep-seated passions.  IMO, Ennis's stoicism was not a rejection of the world of desire, as is understood in Buddhism.  Ironically, it is in the last scene when we see him come closest to this...


Offline Matt Nasty

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The problem with Ennis then was that he believed that stoicism would inevitably lead him to reject his own deep-seated passions.  IMO, Ennis's stoicism was not a rejection of the world of desire, as is understood in Buddhism.  Ironically, it is in the last scene when we see him come closest to this...



hmmm  :\'(

athena0204

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I agree with this. From the moment of the news that they had to bring the sheep down from Jack, There seemed to be a progression of anger that says Ennis was'nt ready to let go . Unprepared for what he knew what would eventually have to happen. The timing of the end was too abrupt for him to accept all at once, as he sees Jack packing, happening too fast.

 Ennis leaves the scene to go sit on the hill alone. Perhaps to contemplate his situation and buy more time  to prepare himself. Jack was calm and almost non-chalant about it perhaps to relieve Ennis's panic, Jack's words "time to go cowboy" spelled the end  of his time with Jack.  Time was up and they had to move.,  his violence became the only communication he had. and what Jack thought was a playful wrestling match becomes a fight.
 I feel he felt he could never verbally expresses the way he felt out loud to Jack. Helpless to stop the inevitable, with desperation, he lashes out , as if Jack does'nt get what he's feeling. ( I think Jack knew.)  A way to make Jack understand that he wanted more than anything to stay with him, not  marry a woman whom he cared for,  but was not in love with. He now knew what true love felt like, he no longer had  to find it in Alma. Ennis's demeanor  at the truck back in Signal and the breakdown in the alley, imo is evidence of what he preferred, not necessarily what said.  He'd already found  what he needed  in Jack. Indeed he did what society expected of him, does'nt mean he was satisfied with what he got. Who was still the one  for Ennis after 20 yrs? One guess.

Yes, I completely agree.  I also believe Jack knew what that fight was really about.