Topic: virility and authenticity...

[Cowboy Cody]

Well, I'm not ready to start shouting "Kill Straighty!" yet, but I'm to the point where I realize we are on this goof-ball planet way too short of time to wait around for other people's  approval.
Thanks guys.

Sister....AMEN!

[Patriot1]

Well, I'm not ready to start shouting "Kill Straighty!" yet, but I'm to the point where I realize we are on this goof-ball planet way too short of time to wait around for other people's  approval.
Thanks guys.

In certain areas, not waiting can and will get you killed.  Remember Matthew Shepard.

Patriot

[camom]

To me a man is someone who cares for those he loves, sticks to his convictions, gets up and tries again when life knocks him down, fights his demons with all his might, holds his head up and demands to be counted, never EVER gives up - and whether he is a s*hit-kickin Ennis-type, wears makeup and a feather boa, or falls somewhere in between, it doesn't make a damned bit of difference.

That's a pretty good definition of a decent woman, if you ask me--maybe not the s*hit-kickin Ennis type (lol), but the rest.  To me, the standards should be the same for either gender, straight, gay, I don't care. 

This discussion of stereotypes has me a little bemused.  I don't watch TV much, never seen "Will & Grace" or "Queer Eye."  I know what the stereotypes are, but that's not what my experience is.  All the gay couples I know are pretty suburban--retired, raising kids, go to church, like that.  Not exactly Ennis and Jack, but defintely not stereotypical.  I guess what I'm saying is that there are areas of the country where "stereotypical" doesn't mean "flamboyant."  Hope you all understand what I mean.

camom   

[JerBear418720]

To me a man is someone who cares for those he loves, sticks to his convictions, gets up and tries again when life knocks him down, fights his demons with all his might, holds his head up and demands to be counted, never EVER gives up - and whether he is a s*hit-kickin Ennis-type, wears makeup and a feather boa, or falls somewhere in between, it doesn't make a damned bit of difference.

That's a pretty good definition of a decent woman, if you ask me--maybe not the s*hit-kickin Ennis type (lol), but the rest.  To me, the standards should be the same for either gender, straight, gay, I don't care. 

This discussion of stereotypes has me a little bemused.  I don't watch TV much, never seen "Will & Grace" or "Queer Eye."  I know what the stereotypes are, but that's not what my experience is.  All the gay couples I know are pretty suburban--retired, raising kids, go to church, like that.  Not exactly Ennis and Jack, but defintely not stereotypical.  I guess what I'm saying is that there are areas of the country where "stereotypical" doesn't mean "flamboyant."  Hope you all understand what I mean.

camom   

I see that clearly, totally agree, and completely expected to get called on that.       

[cybernaut]

Not sure if I have seen such women... I have seen a lot of manipulative women though.
God, they are scary. You never know what their agenda is until right at the end, you wished you had never been caught in the middle.

[zigzo_pazoru]

So I am to gather effeminate gay men are not worthy of love.  90 percent of gay men are effeminate to some degree, some more, some less.  We are what we are.  Just after Christmas I had to take my nephew to see King Kong as I had promised.  We arrived just at the last minute.  We decided to go ahead and get drinks.  I suddenly noticed the place was swarming with gay men. I looked up at the movie posters and noticed BBM was playing.  You don't need a sign over their heads to realize they were gay. I find it a real downer we need a movie like BBM, the ultimate gay fantasy to make us feel better about ourselves. God I hope I'm "virile".  I find it funny they needed the fireworks scene in the movie to show Ennis was not a "gurly man" but a "real man" a "fighting man".

I don't think it's quite that simple. That scene shows us Ennis will resort to violence if he feels strongly enough (i.e. Ennis does not have control of his emotions, really). And in the book his dad teaches him violence is an outlet for emotions and he should always fight back, even throw dirty punches (as is the case with Jack, and in the book Ennis punched his brother in his sleep and his brother never beat him up again).

[cybernaut]

zigzo_pazoru: I guess that society expects guys to fight back. But what they didn't tell them is that they should pick somebody their own size.

The scene of Alma at the sink when she cop out Ennis' fishing trips with "Jack Nasty" was very humiliating as if she was robbing his dignity. It was frightening but at the same time Alma shouldn't have pushed Ennis so much over the cliff. Afterall Alma married Munrrow, why is she still so bitter?

I had one such "fine" experience once with a nasty female recruiter. She was so rude that she yelled at me within the first 5 minutes of the interview... Basically she laid traps in questions and used them to corner me linking wild accusations and her very own patented crystal ball.  She even grinned at herself for honing her interrogation techniques as if I was a criminal.  I tried defending myself in vain for the next 50 minutes while she belittled me till no end. Then I finally had enough and snapped because I couldn't take it anymore. So I yelled right back at her.  Nope I didn't touch her because if I did she would call the cops on me. But I could see she was frightened and called off the interview but yet condescending at the same time. She even yelled right back, "Don't take it out on me when you can't find any job!". Wow! 

I am not sure if she has done it to other guys but I am sure if she used that line of questioning, they would have flew into rage like Ennis did. If the guys call the cops for mental abuse by their wives, the cops will probably laugh at them.

[camom]

Not sure if I have seen such women... I have seen a lot of manipulative women though.
God, they are scary. You never know what their agenda is until right at the end, you wished you had never been caught in the middle.

Well, I surely hope I'm not like that!     At least I try not to be.  I guess I do see your point, because I hear about that kind of woman a lot, but I always thought it was mostly single or younger women.  I do agree that for the most part, men are more straight- forward about things.

camom

[JerBear418720]

Not sure if I have seen such women... I have seen a lot of manipulative women though.
God, they are scary. You never know what their agenda is until right at the end, you wished you had never been caught in the middle.

Well, I surely hope I'm not like that!     At least I try not to be.  I guess I do see your point, because I hear about that kind of woman a lot, but I always thought it was mostly single or younger women.  I do agree that for the most part, men are more straight- forward about things.

camom

Although a tuff man is admired, and a tuff woman is often called a bitch - double standard, and not fair.  I know plenty of manipulative men, and plenty of women that are very straightforward.  I think we're walking onto thin ice when we (including me!) start making gender generalizations (trying HARD to extract foot from mouth).  My ex-wife, for instance, is a powerful executive in a governmental banking agency, but I know for a fact that she has gone way out of her way for gay male employees in crisis (str8s of both genders too). 

This topic is VERY interesting, tho - love hearing perspectives of others.

Another myth to blast is that gay men hate women (!).  That's c*ap, of course - to do so would be to miss out on half of the human race!

JB  :D

[cybernaut]

Well, I surely hope I'm not like that!     At least I try not to be.  I guess I do see your point, because I hear about that kind of woman a lot, but I always thought it was mostly single or younger women.  I do agree that for the most part, men are more straight- forward about things.

I don't think you are manipulative, camom! 
And all those postings hopefully doesn't make me a woman hater because I DO love my mum and my sister. My mum is very straight forward, if she doesn't like it, she doesn't like it but at the same time she allows opinions in the house. My sister is rather quiet, doesn't speak much but will lend her support if she needs to.

I have seen powerful women doing their jobs and respecting people for who they are. In business of course, you cannot show all your cards at one go, you've got to have an ace in the hole.

Reminds me of a story, my female co-worker who boasted to everyone, mostly males, one day during lunch about how she yelled the top off another female co-worker of hers. She apparently sent a memo to the group saying she didn't want to be disturbed for the day. Her supervisor didn't like another girl so HE sent the unwilling girl into the dungeon to be chewed up. The poor girl was so tramautized for days and eventually she quit the job. A male group leader said to her, "You could have told her to come back later." She replied loudly as if she had sent a decree, "I SENT a memo telling people NOT to disturb me. She came in, disturbed me and she got the treatment!"  Wow.... 

I learn my lessons through examples. But what I learnt as well is what goes around comes around. That female co-worker got her deserved treatment alright in another case. But when she's chargin, stay out of her way!  :-\

JerBear418720: Most gay guys love their fag hags. Its the other way around. Lesbians hate guys. Don't know why, but they do.

[camom]

This is an interesting topic (a little OT, sorta)!  I agree that there is a lot of manipulation and game-playing in the work place, although I think that is more due to control issues than gender.  You know, power is the ultimate drug and all that.  I don't work (for money, that is), and I spend more time with kids than adults (most of the time that's a good thing, lol), so I'd forgotten what corporate politics can be like.  I used to work for the student government at our local university, and one thing I learned is that small-time politics is just the same as national--one taste of power and 90% of those liberal, laid-back students became total lunatics.  Didn't matter how unreasonable their ideas, if they didn't get their way, holy hell would break out.  Male, female, didn't matter.  It was really kinda scary to see how formerly pleasant people could become so...despotic. 

camom

[cybernaut]

camom: Thank you. I have never thought about it about power. I have always wondered the "idealistic" students in uni become everything they didn't want to when they step into the workplace for example, breaching ethics they have learnt in uni and so on.

As for power, I was in the army and I have seen power being misued time and time again. I was almost caught up in one.

Referring back to the movie, did you think that Jack's senses for Ennis have dulled, because of "subconscious power control" especially when Ennis kept giving excuses and saying "no" to Jack?

[JerBear418720]

Well, I surely hope I'm not like that!     At least I try not to be.  I guess I do see your point, because I hear about that kind of woman a lot, but I always thought it was mostly single or younger women.  I do agree that for the most part, men are more straight- forward about things.

I don't think you are manipulative, camom! 
And all those postings hopefully doesn't make me a woman hater because I DO love my mum and my sister. My mum is very straight forward, if she doesn't like it, she doesn't like it but at the same time she allows opinions in the house. My sister is rather quiet, doesn't speak much but will lend her support if she needs to.

I have seen powerful women doing their jobs and respecting people for who they are. In business of course, you cannot show all your cards at one go, you've got to have an ace in the hole.

Reminds me of a story, my female co-worker who boasted to everyone, mostly males, one day during lunch about how she yelled the top off another female co-worker of hers. She apparently sent a memo to the group saying she didn't want to be disturbed for the day. Her supervisor didn't like another girl so HE sent the unwilling girl into the dungeon to be chewed up. The poor girl was so tramautized for days and eventually she quit the job. A male group leader said to her, "You could have told her to come back later." She replied loudly as if she had sent a decree, "I SENT a memo telling people NOT to disturb me. She came in, disturbed me and she got the treatment!"  Wow.... 

I learn my lessons through examples. But what I learnt as well is what goes around comes around. That female co-worker got her deserved treatment alright in another case. But when she's chargin, stay out of her way!  :-\

JerBear418720: Most gay guys love their fag hags. Its the other way around. Lesbians hate guys. Don't know why, but they do.

LOL, Cybie, I guess we could go around with this whole thing forever!  My mother and her husband live in a college town, and they have lesbian neighbors who are very lovely people and have always been nice to me. This is true even tho Mom almost wears a sign announcing she has a gay son so that everybody will know how liberal and open-minded she is! 

Also, my housemate had as friends an old lesbian couple - he knew and loved them for almost 30 years - until they both died of old age in 1998.

Your experiences were prolly different, tho.

JB  :D

[cybernaut]

JerBear418720: My partner says I don't play well with girls. haha.  :D
So is he. But that doesn't mean we hate girls. I think we want to get work done rather to deal with roller-coaster emotional or power control issues... Unfortunately we are dealing with humans here so it is part and parcel of the job.

Well, I guess the lesbians I have met didn't leave a good impression, then again you guys do know I am just over-generalizing so that we all can debunk the myth! 

[camom]

This is true even tho Mom almost wears a sign announcing she has a gay son so that everybody will know how liberal and open-minded she is! 

OK, that is just too funny.   

camom

[tpe]

First I want to apologize to everyone. I didn't intent to start such an uproar.  I want to say I just love this movie and the story, that's why I'm here.  I had a bad day yesterday and when I read that post it just hit me the wrong way.  As much as I love this movie, there is a small part of me that resents the hell out of it.  The need for us to be legetimized by straight actors in a gay rolls. One day I overheard some men talking about BBM, they said they heard it was a good movie because it didn't have any real queers in it. They laughed, and said , you know "homos on the range".  I know they wanted me to hear it.  I'm sorry, I'm very poor at expressing what I feel, I'm no Annie Proulx.    Cheers

rod1960, certainly no need to apologize.  I understand your point, and it is well taken.  Gay people are from every race, color, creed, and sensibility.  'We' are a representation of every conceivable slice of humanity.  There is an intrinsic diversity that is accepting, inclusive, and universal.  It has always been this way, and always will be. 

[camom]

camom: Thank you. I have never thought about it about power. I have always wondered the "idealistic" students in uni become everything they didn't want to when they step into the workplace for example, breaching ethics they have learnt in uni and so on.

As for power, I was in the army and I have seen power being misued time and time again. I was almost caught up in one.

Referring back to the movie, did you think that Jack's senses for Ennis have dulled, because of "subconscious power control" especially when Ennis kept giving excuses and saying "no" to Jack?

Sorry, Cybernaut, I just saw your reply today.  Hard to keep up with all the different posts!

My guess is that there was always a certain power play in their relationship, and that they had the same argument a number of times throughout the years of their relationship--what Jack wanted vs. what Ennis wanted (or rather, was able to give).  I believe that Ennis would have given in to Jack very quickly if he were not so stuck on that traumatic image from his chiildhood.  While they came from similarly deprived backgrounds, Jack had a more positive outlook, and he didn't see the negative consequences of a life together.  He was more impetuous, less willing to accept the status quo.  Ennis is just more stoic, and he's gone through life having to accept the way things are on a greater level than Jack has--the loss of his parents, the loss of the ranch, the loss of his education, the loss of a home (when his brother got married).  He's had to stand a lot of loss, really far more than Jack.  You can see the difference in that little scene after the bear has spooked the mules and Ennis has come into camp, where Jack wants to shoot one of the sheep.  Ennis says he'll stick with beans, and Jack says, "Well, I won't."  I think that little bit says a lot about how they look at life.  Ennis is resigned when something bad happens, whereas Jack isn't willing to just cave in.  So my guess is that Jack pushed atEnnis a lot through the years, but just couldn't get him to budge.  It does say something about how much Jack loved Ennis, that he was willing to stick with him all those years--but we also don't see all the ways in which Ennis was loving to Jack, and maybe Jack didn't see them so much, either.  He must have known that Ennis was quitting jobs just to be with him, but because he was financially comfortable, I don't think he realized the magnitude of the sacrifice that Ennis made for him.

Uh...did I answer your question?   

camoom 
   

[CherryCake]

[... Ennis was quitting jobs just to be with him, but because he was financially comfortable, I don't think he realized the magnitude of the sacrifice that Ennis made for him.

Uh...did I answer your question?   

camoom 
   

 
That's one point that i thought alot about... Ennis makes him self available to Jack--to go on thier trips--by making sure he had jobs that could provide that flexiblity.  hmmm.. remember that scene where Alma's at the kitchen table and mentions there is an opening at the powere company, might be good pay.  Could it be that Ennis knew that with a job like that he wouldn't have the flexibilty to meet Jack as often.  Ennis tries to play it off as he's to clumsy he might get electrocuted.  Gosh. Ennis loved Jack!

[camom]

[... Ennis was quitting jobs just to be with him, but because he was financially comfortable, I don't think he realized the magnitude of the sacrifice that Ennis made for him.

Uh...did I answer your question?   

camoom 
   

 
That's one point that i thought alot about... Ennis makes him self available to Jack--to go on thier trips--by making sure he had jobs that could provide that flexiblity.  hmmm.. remember that scene where Alma's at the kitchen table and mentions there is an opening at the powere company, might be good pay.  Could it be that Ennis knew that with a job like that he wouldn't have the flexibilty to meet Jack as often.  Ennis tries to play it off as he's to clumsy he might get electrocuted.  Gosh. Ennis loved Jack!

I'm sure that's why he blew off Alma's suggestion.  You have to look a little harder to see Ennis' devotion, but the clues are all there.  He made some huge sacrifices for Jack, and I'm not sure that Jack always appreciated that.

camom

[Patriot1]

I'm sure that's why he blew off Alma's suggestion.  You have to look a little harder to see Ennis' devotion, but the clues are all there.  He made some huge sacrifices for Jack, and I'm not sure that Jack always appreciated that.

camom

But, didn't Jack want Ennis to stop making sacrifices by living together?

Jack, I got to work. Them earlier days I used to quit the jobs. You forget how it is, bein' broke all the time. You ever hear of child support?  Let me tell you, I can't quit this one.  And I can't get the time off.
(pause)
Was tough enough gettin' this time. The trade-off was August.
(pause)
You got a better idea?

I did once.

If they lived together they could share expenses (maybe Jack would even help with child support) and they would be together every night.  If they had a ranch together (Jack's Dad's ranch?) they could be together all day too.

I think Jack realized what Ennis was sacrificing. Still didn't make him miss Ennis less.

[cybernaut]

camom: Yes, your answer was pretty insightful 

Patriot1: Ennis said, "Two guys living together, no way." On Ennis' perspective, he was protecting Jack as he didn't want both of them to get hurt. Of course they continue to dig a hole that they found it hard to get out of.

But then how much I wished Ennis could have said yes, lets run away together, as Jack confronted him. As usual Ennis is scared as to what the future brings... There are just so many options nowadays for ranches like summer camps for kids, international student camp counsellors or even B&B to make their operations successful! Sometimes I want to scream, JACK, do your !@#$ HOMEWORK PLEASE! Probably that would sway Ennis' mind?  :-\

[Patriot1]

Patriot1: Ennis said, "Two guys living together, no way." On Ennis' perspective, he was protecting Jack as he didn't want both of them to get hurt. Of course they continue to dig a hole that they found it hard to get out of.

Yes, I know cybernaut but I was responding to the statement that Jack may not have realized or considered the sacrifices Ennis was making.  My point was that Jack offered a way out of sacrificing.
Ennis just couldn't do it.

I have never had any kind of relationship with anyone so I am just guessing, but I can't help but wonder if I loved someone as much as Ennis seemed to love Jack, would I care about the potential danger.  I am leaning toward beliving I would have gone with Jack to live together but at the same time I would always be on my guard toward unfriendly people.

That leads me to wonder if it was Ennis' fear of being killed or his own homophobia and paranoia.

You ever get the feelin', I don't know, when you're in town, and someone looks at you, suspicious...like he knows. And then you get out on the pavement, and everyone, lookin' at you, and maybe they all know too?

[cybernaut]

Patriot1: That's the dilemma isn't it? But if Ennis were to give Jack a chance, things would have been a lot different even though it may be fraught with dangers. However as camom has said Ennis has experienced loss in his life, Jack would be the last person Ennis wants to see him dead. I guess his inactions frustrates everybody...

I guess I treasure the moments now more than I care about the "potential danger" in the future. I believe Ennis realized it too late and he had wasted so much of his life fearing while he and Jack could have a life together. :-\

[flikker2005]

It is a foolish thing for us to try to quantify suffering.

- Who suffered more?
- Who was more at fault?
- Who was more just?
- Who was more wrong?

One can never be inside of another's being.

The absolute best that can happen to anyone is to have the trust, time, or love of another.

Let the rest go.

Jack and Ennis had trust, time and love.

Let the rest go.

[CherryCake]

So true, flikker...

[hidesert]

Very good topic!!!

Just a few thoughts...

Where do we get our concepts of what is "masculine" and "feminine"?  Movies and television have a great impact in defining groups.  Remember the old campaign saying:  Define youself or your opponent will do if for you.

Movies and TV have portrayed gays and lesbians as stereotypes. There is the sissy, the happy sexless gay or lesbian who is the best buddy/girl friend,  the tragic gay person who dies in the end - usually from something like AIDS.  And they go on and on.  "Will & Grace" and "Queer Eye" are in this tradition. 
   
Is BBM a turning point for Hollywood or just the exception?

Yes Jack and Ennis were masculine gay/bisexual/homosexual etc men in the film, but seriously consider Wyoming in 1963.  Could Jack and Ennis have survived if they were effeminate?  The only way for them to pass was to be straight talking/straight acting. 

[camom]

It is a foolish thing for us to try to quantify suffering.

- Who suffered more?
- Who was more at fault?
- Who was more just?
- Who was more wrong?

One can never be inside of another's being.

The absolute best that can happen to anyone is to have the trust, time, or love of another.

Let the rest go.

Jack and Ennis had trust, time and love.

Let the rest go.

Great post, so true!  They both gave up so much, but obviously they both gained a lot, too, or they wouldn't have stuck it out for 20 years under pretty difficult circumstances.

camom