Author Topic: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"  (Read 168741 times)

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #150 on: May 16, 2008, 08:55 AM »
Thanks Tammy.  :)

Beautiful deduction.    I underline the part that I find very insightful.

Thanks,Thomas¡. :)

I think Jack at that post was trying to cut through all the obfuscation -- all the conventions that have come to dominate their meetings and their relationship.  So many things have been left unsaid, over the years, and this was Jack's first attempt to address this head-on.  His confession is a way of telling Ennis that for all their tiptoeing around each other, there is something that cannot be denied: that he loves him.

I agree again¡  O0 Yes,Jack's confession-really,the first one in all those years...-is a way of reassuring Ennis about his own feelings.And perhaps he wanted at the same time to reassure himself about Ennis ones.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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Offline tpe

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Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #151 on: May 19, 2008, 08:25 AM »
Thanks,Thomas¡. :)

I agree again¡  O0 Yes,Jack's confession-really,the first one in all those years...-is a way of reassuring Ennis about his own feelings.And perhaps he wanted at the same time to reassure himself about Ennis ones.

And I am not sure if he got it.  A part of me says that perhaps he did -- taking Ennis's silence as an affirmation, since Ennis would have disavowed what Jack said as hogwash, given how many times he had dismissed Jack's overtures in the past.  But we could also view the silence as a lack of connection -- of a failure to reach out.  Again, even this silence is ambiguous.


manhattangirl

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Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #152 on: May 20, 2008, 05:50 AM »
And I am not sure if he got it.  A part of me says that perhaps he did -- taking Ennis's silence as an affirmation, since Ennis would have disavowed what Jack said as hogwash, given how many times he had dismissed Jack's overtures in the past.  But we could also view the silence as a lack of connection -- of a failure to reach out.  Again, even this silence is ambiguous.



JMO:

But the next  scene was Ennin's arm around Jack as they slept.  Ennis wasn't really big on words, but watch his actions.   Maybe that was Ennis's reply to Jack's declaration. 

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #153 on: May 20, 2008, 05:57 AM »
JMO:

But the next  scene was Ennin's arm around Jack as they slept.  Ennis wasn't really big on words, but watch his actions.   Maybe that was Ennis's reply to Jack's declaration. 

Yes,I agree,MG¡.Ang Lee's Ennis is even more sparing in words than the one of the s.s.,but he replaces this with little gestures,often full with tenderness...As in the motel scene,much more demonstrative of his feelings orally in Annie's work;here,the words become caresses in Jack's arm.Really,it's a way of showing his feelings,and in this case,a way of answering Jack's declaration.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

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Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #154 on: May 20, 2008, 07:19 AM »
JMO:

But the next  scene was Ennin's arm around Jack as they slept.  Ennis wasn't really big on words, but watch his actions.   Maybe that was Ennis's reply to Jack's declaration. 

Very possible.  I think Jack understood that he was not very big on words.  That embrace was probably the closest we got to an answer.


Offline orangetruck

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Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #155 on: May 20, 2008, 07:36 AM »
Very possible.  I think Jack understood that he was not very big on words.  That embrace was probably the closest we got to an answer.



Can't help but pop in on this topic again. I agree about the embrace that follows. However, I think we get very close to an answer a little later in final confrontation as well. As Jack knows Ennis isn't big on words, he's been able to read Ennis' need for him since way back in the day. When Jack goes to throw his arms around Ennis, and he is too weak to deny the magnetism, I think "I can't stand this anymore, Jack" after they've both fallen to the ground in an epic embrace is terribly beautiful and sad but also like an answer of sorts..
Also I find it one of several reminders they were given that their thing with each other is life altering love. And this final confrontation they have, this instance, happens to be the one that comes right before the finale of reminders. Maybe the higher power of the mountain simply couldn't let Jack go until he got this close an answer from Ennis, via overpowering, neglected and too often hidden love.
One doesn't control the weather up there on the mountain. On Brokeback, the weather controls you

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« Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 07:42 AM by orangetruck »
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Offline tpe

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Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #156 on: May 20, 2008, 07:45 AM »
Can't help but pop in on this topic again. I agree about the embrace that follows. However, I think we get very close to an answer a little later in final confrontation as well. As Jack knows Ennis isn't big on words, he's been able to read Ennis' need for him since way back in the day. When Jack goes to throw his arms around Ennis and is too weak to deny the magnetism, I think "I can't stand this anymore, Jack" after they've both fallen to the ground in an epic embrace is terribly beautiful and sad but also like an answer of sorts..
Also I find it one of several reminders they were given that their thing with each other is life altering love. And this final confrontation they have, this instance, happens to be the one that comes right before the finale of reminders. Maybe the higher power of the mountain simply couldn't let Jack go until he got this close an answer from Ennis, via overpowering, neglected and too often hidden love.
One doesn't control the weather up there on the mountain. On Brokeback, the weather controls you

 $)

orangetruck, you are absolutely right.  That was the definitive answer.   It is the natural response to Jack's confession the night before.  The substance of Ennis's confession is conguent, and of the same substance. 

And yes, I also agree that it can only be life-altering.  And Jack's beautiful valedictory in the ss (...let be, let be) tells us that he understood that it was as close as he could get.


Offline orangetruck

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Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #157 on: May 20, 2008, 07:56 AM »
orangetruck, you are absolutely right.  That was the definitive answer.   It is the natural response to Jack's confession the night before.  The substance of Ennis's confession is conguent, and of the same substance. 

And yes, I also agree that it can only be life-altering.  And Jack's beautiful valedictory in the ss (...let be, let be) tells us that he understood that it was as close as he could get.



:)
Jack: sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it
Ennis: I can't stand this anymore Jack ( I also have to note how metaphorical that was to the scene as he falls)

Reminds me also earlier on when they're sorting sheep: "We gotta stick this one out, Jack"
With this, I think his underlying motive is to stick to that 'one shot thing', because he doesn't know better or won't allow it.

But now, time has proven him guilty of having felt love, and now the truth comes out: He just can't call pushing away what he absolutely needs, life. His life is in Jack and he can't stand to ship him away; it's just to Early for that.  :s)
"Cor cordium" - Oliver from Call Me By Your Name, a novel by Andre Aciman.

manhattangirl

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Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #158 on: May 20, 2008, 06:11 PM »
Then this is as close as they get to speak of the love.  It's not just having a life together, or being "queer" or who knew what, but what their love meant to each of them.  Then Jack wasn't pushing for Ennis make up his mind about a life together, but he wanted to know, "Do you love me?", and Ennis saying "yes". 

Now I'm wondering whether Jack felt his love, their love was good for Ennis or not?   Help me out here guys.


Offline tpe

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Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #159 on: May 21, 2008, 07:20 AM »
:)
Jack: sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it
Ennis: I can't stand this anymore Jack ( I also have to note how metaphorical that was to the scene as he falls)

Reminds me also earlier on when they're sorting sheep: "We gotta stick this one out, Jack"
With this, I think his underlying motive is to stick to that 'one shot thing', because he doesn't know better or won't allow it.


But now, time has proven him guilty of having felt love, and now the truth comes out: He just can't call pushing away what he absolutely needs, life. His life is in Jack and he can't stand to ship him away; it's just to Early for that.  :s)

Beautifully stated, orangetruck.  I highlight another association that you bring up. 

So, I would say that Ennis probably stayed away from a second marriage because he did understand his limits.  He probably knew that a second marriage would pull him further away from Jack, and this was something he was not about to confess in that last night before the final confrontation.  The answer perhaps to Jack's question would have been: "Because of you."


Offline tpe

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Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #160 on: May 21, 2008, 07:24 AM »
Then this is as close as they get to speak of the love.  It's not just having a life together, or being "queer" or who knew what, but what their love meant to each of them.  Then Jack wasn't pushing for Ennis make up his mind about a life together, but he wanted to know, "Do you love me?", and Ennis saying "yes". 

Now I'm wondering whether Jack felt his love, their love was good for Ennis or not?   Help me out here guys.

I somehow feel that part of the reason why Jack perhaps decided to move on was because he also felt that something in thee current state of their relationship was not doing Ennis any good.  I think this is what you are implying, correct?

I think the marriage question was also in part a probing question to see the state of Ennis's mind.  Perhaps Jack did understand that he was part of the reason why Ennis chose not to remarry -- that a remarriage would have pulled them apart even further. 

In any case, I do feel that in the end, perhaps Jack felt responsible for Ennis not being happy.  The currest state had become intolerable.  It was time to move on.


Offline orangetruck

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Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #161 on: May 21, 2008, 08:15 AM »
Beautifully stated, orangetruck.  I highlight another association that you bring up. 

So, I would say that Ennis probably stayed away from a second marriage because he did understand his limits.  He probably knew that a second marriage would pull him further away from Jack, and this was something he was not about to confess in that last night before the final confrontation.  The answer perhaps to Jack's question would have been: "Because of you."


A very good answer. :)

I don't necessarily find it strange but intriguing that Jack used a term like 'anyone' rather than woman or gal.  :s)

"Cor cordium" - Oliver from Call Me By Your Name, a novel by Andre Aciman.

Offline tpe

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Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #162 on: May 21, 2008, 08:49 AM »
A very good answer. :)

I don't necessarily find it strange but intriguing that Jack used a term like 'anyone' rather than woman or gal.  :s)

Exactly.  I sometimes think that perhaps Jack half-suspected whether Ennis didn't remarry because of some other guy besides himself.  Perhaps this is far-fetched?

I though that there was a lot of hidden jealousy in that scene.  Ennis asking Jack about his marriage after this seems to be just as probing as Jack's query..

babytammy7

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Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #163 on: May 21, 2008, 03:41 PM »
I somehow feel that part of the reason why Jack perhaps decided to move on was because he also felt that something in thee current state of their relationship was not doing Ennis any good.   I think this is what you are implying, correct?

I think the marriage question was also in part a probing question to see the state of Ennis's mind.  Perhaps Jack did understand that he was part of the reason why Ennis chose not to remarry -- that a remarriage would have pulled them apart even further. 

In any case, I do feel that in the end, perhaps Jack felt responsible for Ennis not being happy.  The currest state had become intolerable.  It was time to move on.


Agree, friend. Someone said long time ago the same thing...(maybe you?), Jack loved Ennis so much and he wanted to stay with him, but maybe he thought that Ennis will be happier without him (less stress, less fear to be outed out, not need to quit jobs...), and maybe he thought that if they had not been together those years Ennis had had a better job and a family. So he decided to move on, for his own sake (to make his dreams come true) and for Ennis sake. People said that when you love someone you do anything to make that person happy, and if being happy means that you have to stay away from the one you love, then you do it...

I know sometimes love is selfish and you prefer stay even if that shatters the life of your lover...but Jack's love was always generous and kind. I keep thinking that he had showed in November...not only because of his love, but because of their 20 years old friendship (and sure he was worried about how Ennis was doing it) but the last time we see him....that bitter extremely sad and tired face speaks of pain, hopeless and despair...I think that in that very moment, not later when maybe he made up his mind, but in that moment he thought that he was never gonna see Ennis again.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2008, 04:43 PM by Baby Tammy »

Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #164 on: May 21, 2008, 04:34 PM »
Agree, friend. Someone said long time ago the same thing...(maybe you?). Jack loved Ennis so much and he wanted to stay with him, but maybe he thought that Ennis will be happier without him (less stress, less fear to be outed out, not need to quit jobs...), and maybe he thought that if they had not been together those years Ennis had had a better job and a family. So he decided to move on, for his own sake (to make his dreams come true) and for Ennis sake. People said that when you love someone you do anything to make that person happy, and if being happy means that you have to stay away from the one you love, then you do it...

I know sometimes love is selfish and you prefer stay even if that shatters the life of your lover...but Jack's love was always generous and kind. I keep thinking that he had showed in November...not only because of his love, but because of their 20 years old friendship (and sure he was worried about how Ennis was doing it) but the last time we see him....that bitter extremely sad and tired face speaks of pain, hopeless and dispair...I think that in that very moment, not later when maybe he made up his mind, but in that moment he thought that he was never gonna see Ennis again.
i think you are deffinatly onto something here :)

manhattangirl

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Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #165 on: May 21, 2008, 05:20 PM »
I somehow feel that part of the reason why Jack perhaps decided to move on was because he also felt that something in thee current state of their relationship was not doing Ennis any good.  I think this is what you are implying, correct?

I think the marriage question was also in part a probing question to see the state of Ennis's mind.  Perhaps Jack did understand that he was part of the reason why Ennis chose not to remarry -- that a remarriage would have pulled them apart even further. 

In any case, I do feel that in the end, perhaps Jack felt responsible for Ennis not being happy.  The currest state had become intolerable.  It was time to move on.



That's what I think, that is why Jack had that look on his face when Ennis drove off in the end,and Jack's rememberance of the dozy embrace, he was saying good-bye, and he suffered for that after.  It wasn't until after his death, that Ennis understood Jack's suffereng, and his love.

Offline tpe

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Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #166 on: May 22, 2008, 06:58 AM »
Agree, friend. Someone said long time ago the same thing...(maybe you?), Jack loved Ennis so much and he wanted to stay with him, but maybe he thought that Ennis will be happier without him (less stress, less fear to be outed out, not need to quit jobs...), and maybe he thought that if they had not been together those years Ennis had had a better job and a family. So he decided to move on, for his own sake (to make his dreams come true) and for Ennis sake. People said that when you love someone you do anything to make that person happy, and if being happy means that you have to stay away from the one you love, then you do it...

I know sometimes love is selfish and you prefer stay even if that shatters the life of your lover...but Jack's love was always generous and kind. I keep thinking that he had showed in November...not only because of his love, but because of their 20 years old friendship (and sure he was worried about how Ennis was doing it) but the last time we see him....that bitter extremely sad and tired face speaks of pain, hopeless and despair...I think that in that very moment, not later when maybe he made up his mind, but in that moment he thought that he was never gonna see Ennis again.

So very true.  So many times, lovers go on a self-destruct mode.  I know, believe me.  Seldom do we encounter enough grace to take things in prespective and do what is best for the other. 

Commitment in a marriage is normally taken to be a sign of true love.  Sometimes, knowing when to end something is even more significant -- it is certainly much much more rare. 


Offline tpe

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Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #167 on: May 22, 2008, 07:00 AM »
That's what I think, that is why Jack had that look on his face when Ennis drove off in the end,and Jack's rememberance of the dozy embrace, he was saying good-bye, and he suffered for that after.  It wasn't until after his death, that Ennis understood Jack's suffereng, and his love.

In the light of Jack's marriage question, I do sometimes think he asked it out of sheer envy -- trying to know if there is a lucky someone who will have Ennis's commitment, at least publicly, if not sincerely.

Much of Jack's surrering in this regard is to be like an outsider in his own "house", I suppose.  He pays the price without tasting the sweets of it all, so to speak.


manhattangirl

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Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #168 on: May 22, 2008, 02:55 PM »
In the light of Jack's marriage question, I do sometimes think he asked it out of sheer envy -- trying to know if there is a lucky someone who will have Ennis's commitment, at least publicly, if not sincerely.

Much of Jack's surrering in this regard is to be like an outsider in his own "house", I suppose.  He pays the price without tasting the sweets of it all, so to speak.



This is a good point, Jack would have left his marriage at a drop of a hat, but was talk out of it by Ennis, now here Ennis sits divorced, and Jack still married.  I can see Jack's confusion, and envy.  Jack must have been wondering what really kept Ennis from him, and whose in his bed, when they weren't together. 

This could have contribute to Jack's mood the next day, here again they  were leaving each other, and he loved Ennis so much.  I can understand Jack's frustration, he wanted to know why, he wanted to hurt Ennis, he wanted to love him, it was getting too much.   JMO.

babytammy7

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Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #169 on: May 22, 2008, 04:00 PM »
This is a good point, Jack would have left his marriage at a drop of a hat, but was talk out of it by Ennis, now here Ennis sits divorced, and Jack still married.  I can see Jack's confusion, and envy.  Jack must have been wondering what really kept Ennis from him, and whose in his bed, when they weren't together. 

This could have contribute to Jack's mood the next day, here again they  were leaving each other, and he loved Ennis so much.  I can understand Jack's frustration, he wanted to know why, he wanted to hurt Ennis, he wanted to love him, it was getting too much.   JMO.

At first Jack thought that Alma kept Ennis away from him...then he found out that it was not the real reason....and years later Ennis still is alone...so you're right what kept Ennis from him? Who was Ennis sleeping with?

I totally agree with every word you wrote MG!!

Offline tpe

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Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #170 on: May 23, 2008, 07:23 AM »
This is a good point, Jack would have left his marriage at a drop of a hat, but was talk out of it by Ennis, now here Ennis sits divorced, and Jack still married.  I can see Jack's confusion, and envy.  Jack must have been wondering what really kept Ennis from him, and whose in his bed, when they weren't together.  

This could have contribute to Jack's mood the next day, here again they  were leaving each other, and he loved Ennis so much.  I can understand Jack's frustration, he wanted to know why, he wanted to hurt Ennis, he wanted to love him, it was getting too much.   JMO.

Excellent.  This is exactly the way I would have wanted to elucidate this point!

Well, the final confrontation strikes me sometimes as a squabble between an old married couple where one thinks that the partner's interest is cooling.  Jack felt that he had the right to impose on Ennis, as if they were indeed a couple. 

But it is true what you say.  It is clearly shown in the post-divorce fiasco when Jack mistalenly assumes that a divorce would mean Ennis living with him.  He probably never understood in all those years after that what kept him apart from Ennis, even though the latter still had commitments to his children.  Since Jack was willing to abandon his own family for a life together, Ennis's being kept apart by the need to provide child support and alimony probably did not make any sense.  Perhaps jack had indeed forgotten how hard it was to be poor.

Finally, we all know that the more we love a person, there is that greater potential to hurt him/her during a quarrel.  The more you love, the more you can potentially hurt/hate when things get rough.




Offline tpe

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Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #171 on: May 23, 2008, 07:25 AM »
At first Jack thought that Alma kept Ennis away from him...then he found out that it was not the real reason....and years later Ennis still is alone...so you're right what kept Ennis from him? Who was Ennis sleeping with?

I totally agree with every word you wrote MG!!

Yes, your last question here was probably very much in Jack's mind.  I really think he was suspicious, given that the time spent with Ennis dwindled with each passing year.

During the Final Confrontation, it became clear to Jack that Ennis simply exercised continence, for the most part (i.e., except possibly with Casie).   This is shown by Jack's statement: "I'm not you..."


Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #172 on: May 23, 2008, 09:45 AM »
Yes, your last question here was probably very much in Jack's mind.  I really think he was suspicious, given that the time spent with Ennis dwindled with each passing year.

During the Final Confrontation, it became clear to Jack that Ennis simply exercised continence, for the most part (i.e., except possibly with Casie).   This is shown by Jack's statement: "I'm not you..."


a agree this "im not you..." suggests to me that jack knew that ennis could survive without sex... if he felt ennis had a secret lover behing jacks back then surely jack wouldnt have said this.

Offline tpe

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Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #173 on: May 23, 2008, 12:00 PM »
a agree this "im not you..." suggests to me that jack knew that ennis could survive without sex... if he felt ennis had a secret lover behing jacks back then surely jack wouldnt have said this.

Precisely.  The conversation of last night about having nobody else to marry only confirmed this in Jack's mind, IMO.


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Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #174 on: May 23, 2008, 03:22 PM »
    Am still thinking over the possibility Ennis was, pure and simple, a loner.  The distance between him and Alma, and also Cassie, would be more understandable, this way, when you toss in Jack.  And there are a variety of lone-wolf types.  Maybe Ennis (gosh, I hate this phrase), had what is now called low self-esteem and therefore thought nobody could really LIVE with him, for a long period of time without getting tired of him.
  Even Alma was a part-time marriage, in that he was away so much.  It's just that every image of Ennis seems to support this, from Aguirre's trailer, to the marriage ceremony (he seems alone, there, too), to the road-work, to sitting in the pick-up watching a movie with Alma, to the divorce proceedings --he's always alone or lost unto himself.
  The only time he had constant companionship, then, was on the mountain, and, because of mixed signals, that seemed not to hold up, either.
Of course, if you go with a loner mentality, that undermines the repressed/shame theory when it comes to the next 20 years with Jack. I dunno.  The movie starts with Ennis  --- alone, and it ends the same way.  And maybe that's all he knew.  It's a thought, that's all.

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Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #175 on: May 23, 2008, 11:55 PM »
    Am still thinking over the possibility Ennis was, pure and simple, a loner.  The distance between him and Alma, and also Cassie, would be more understandable, this way, when you toss in Jack.  And there are a variety of lone-wolf types.  Maybe Ennis (gosh, I hate this phrase), had what is now called low self-esteem and therefore thought nobody could really LIVE with him, for a long period of time without getting tired of him.
  Even Alma was a part-time marriage, in that he was away so much.  It's just that every image of Ennis seems to support this, from Aguirre's trailer, to the marriage ceremony (he seems alone, there, too), to the road-work, to sitting in the pick-up watching a movie with Alma, to the divorce proceedings --he's always alone or lost unto himself.
  The only time he had constant companionship, then, was on the mountain, and, because of mixed signals, that seemed not to hold up, either.
Of course, if you go with a loner mentality, that undermines the repressed/shame theory when it comes to the next 20 years with Jack. I dunno.  The movie starts with Ennis  --- alone, and it ends the same way.  And maybe that's all he knew.  It's a thought, that's all.

I definitly think Ennis is a loner. Would say he was just *made that way* , but that's putting it too simply. I also feel that he had  a repressed/shameful part of him.

Like alot of *loner* types like Ennis, they usally do  have some  deep dark scerets. No one will ever know them, including wives, friends, relatives etc. Though it's the perfect cover, re-marriage is out of the question for him imo,  He's learned already,1. He's already in love with Jack, and aint about to let him go again 2., it does'nt replace his need for him,3. It's one more person permanantly situating herself into his relationship  with Jack and the  essential secrecy of it. Like Alma, someone else to pass judgement on him and Jack. Why would Ennis open himself up to that ...Again??

 Jack kept coming back,  even times when Ennis found it inconvienient, Jack was there, did'nt tire of him over time,feeding a need Ennis desperatly needed, endearing himself to Ennis just by his preasence. It meant Jack thought somehing of him. He was an important part of someone's life. .  He was worth keeping.


 I think Ennis was  curiously, but secretly  attracted to Jack...  from the start, but put that part of himself in check, compartmentalized somewhere in a dark corner of his mind, only coming forth when he's * caught off guard* so to speak. When Ennis unconsiously drops that damn guard, it's like watching a flower bloom before your eyes. His smile has energy, and you just know , it's Jack that makes him happy.

Jack, by just being Jack, in close proximity to Ennis on somewhat of a constant basic was able to engage Ennis and bring him out along with this part of him. This quiet, pent-up man  who coud'nt recognize true unconditional love if it bit him, free choice robbed from him as a child, had something to say, though  he let his actions mostly speak for him, Jack saw he had feelings, fears , likes and dislikes etc... did'nt talk much but, he was human and  normal, vulnerable to love in a big way. No one else  but Jack was able to do this, Jack saw him and made no judgements, loved Ennis for who he was, faults and all, He felt acceptance coming from Jack therefore he  became comfortable with himself a little  bit at a time. Ennis, the loner, had finally found a friend. Alma and Cassie could never do this..  He had also became comfortable living with fear and shame.  It was all part of what made Ennis...Ennis.
I also feel Jack came to him at a point, 19 yrs. old when he is searching for self-indentification. The Brokeback experience and Jack, gave him the opportunity  of a lifetime and the perfect  person to let this repressed part of him surface. Still, he denies what he cannot deny, a true *Desperado* like the song by the Eagles says. There's always doubt in him, wether he's married, or with Jack.

 
..."yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"...

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #176 on: May 24, 2008, 01:05 AM »
    Am still thinking over the possibility Ennis was, pure and simple, a loner.  The distance between him and Alma, and also Cassie, would be more understandable, this way, when you toss in Jack.  And there are a variety of lone-wolf types.  Maybe Ennis (gosh, I hate this phrase), had what is now called low self-esteem and therefore thought nobody could really LIVE with him, for a long period of time without getting tired of him.
  Even Alma was a part-time marriage, in that he was away so much.  It's just that every image of Ennis seems to support this, from Aguirre's trailer, to the marriage ceremony (he seems alone, there, too), to the road-work, to sitting in the pick-up watching a movie with Alma, to the divorce proceedings --he's always alone or lost unto himself.
  The only time he had constant companionship, then, was on the mountain, and, because of mixed signals, that seemed not to hold up, either.
Of course, if you go with a loner mentality, that undermines the repressed/shame theory when it comes to the next 20 years with Jack. I dunno.  The movie starts with Ennis  --- alone, and it ends the same way.  And maybe that's all he knew.  It's a thought, that's all.

Tony, that is a thoughtful and perceptive understanding of Ennis.

It never occurred to me that the movie started and ended with Ennis...alone, the truck driver notwithstanding. And once you said it, the image of Ennis, always alone, no matter where he was, who he was with, rings true to me. Perhaps it resonates with the lone-wolf in me. I don't see Ennis as ashamed or repressed except when it comes to his sexuality. I think he was proud and happy to be himself until that summer. Then, all of a sudden, off the mountain and into the alley. He was happy whenever he was with Jack - not a thought of shame or repression - this thing with no reins. He'd be happy to spend the rest of his life with Jack, on the mountain, if he didn't have to make a living.

You are so right that Ennis always felt apart, even dancing with Cassie on the dance floor, or making love to Alma. The only time that he really was connected with anyone was with his daughters, with Alma Jr.

There are many straight men who married, divorced, and remain single the rest of their days. Lone wolves can be straight or gay, or bi, for that matter. Labels are equal opportunity stickers.

When you got nothing, you don't need nothing. That's what Ennis thought of himself...he felt nothing inside, so there is no need to get involved with anyone. The only person who could touch his heart and make him fell alive was Jack. Once Jack was dead, there is no reason to get involve with anyone else. He could just as well  live with memories of Jack rather than living with someone else.

JMHO
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline Tony

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Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #177 on: May 24, 2008, 12:39 PM »






No one else  but Jack was able to do this, Jack saw him and made no judgements, loved Ennis for who he was, faults and all, He felt acceptance coming from Jack therefore he  became comfortable with himself a little  bit at a time. Ennis, the loner, had finally found a friend. Alma and Cassie could never do this..  He had also became comfortable living with fear and shame.  It was all part of what made Ennis...Ennis.


 

      Aintfoolin, this goes not only to his being a loner, but a loner who, as you've said, finally found a friend. And, of course, probably no one else but Jack could ever have been that friend, as Ennis was exactly what he was looking for - not a bully, shy, strong, and needing someone so very bad.  I think a lot of that showed up outside Aguirre's trailer, when Jack....noticed.  And, rejected, brushed it off and bided his time.  He knew his Ennis, that 1st day.  Took Ennis a little while longer, probably.
 

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Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #178 on: May 24, 2008, 12:47 PM »
   Dear Andrew - as you may have noticed, am a klutz even with quoting, but did want to say, your post and aintfoolin's, taken together, really make for a good, no, great reading of Ennis.  So much lonesomeness there, it's no wonder he changed, subtly, but harshly, when Alma brought that subject up in the bedroom.  She had hit a raw nerve.  She'd hit where it really hurt:  he had been lonesome, and he was STILL lonesome.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: "All this time you aint found anyone else to marry?"
« Reply #179 on: May 24, 2008, 01:00 PM »
   Dear Andrew - as you may have noticed, am a klutz even with quoting, but did want to say, your post and aintfoolin's, taken together, really make for a good, no, great reading of Ennis.  So much lonesomeness there, it's no wonder he changed, subtly, but harshly, when Alma brought that subject up in the bedroom.  She had hit a raw nerve.  She'd hit where it really hurt:  he had been lonesome, and he was STILL lonesome.
      Aintfoolin, this goes not only to his being a loner, but a loner who, as you've said, finally found a friend. And, of course, probably no one else but Jack could ever have been that friend, as Ennis was exactly what he was looking for - not a bully, shy, strong, and needing someone so very bad.  I think a lot of that showed up outside Aguirre's trailer, when Jack....noticed.  And, rejected, brushed it off and bided his time.  He knew his Ennis, that 1st day.  Took Ennis a little while longer, probably.
 

Hmm...I agree up to a point about Ennis...loneliness, and about Jack being the only friend Ennis could turn to, comfortably.

However, the transformation in Lightning Flat was also when Ennis found a friend in Jack's Ma. He is no longer lonely. And lets not forget about Alma Jr. I like your choice of words, too, Tony. Lonesome is, to me, someone who is alone, but not feeling lonely. It is like Lonesome Dove, or the Lonesome Cowboy... Ennis is lonesome, but not lonely, not until he met Jack, and was without Jack. Then finding the two shirts, he was never lonely again...only lonesome with memories of Brokeback Mountain.

JMHO.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.