Topic: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes

[tpe]

The sexual roles played by both Ennis and Jack in the different BBM sex scenes (e.g., SNIT) had been discussed in one of the thread, and it is probably appropriate to start a new thread for this topic.

Would you say that Ennis played the passive role in SNIT?  Do you think that he always assumed an active one, or was he more versatile.

The same questions can be asked of Jack.  For instance, did the SNIT as shown in the film imply that Jack sometimes played the active role when he had sex with Ennis?

Please remember that there are no right or wrong answers to these questions...

[athena0204]

The sexual roles played by both Ennis and Jack in the different BBM sex scenes (e.g., SNIT) had been discussed in one of the thread, and it is probably appropriate to start a new thread for this topic.

Would you say that Ennis played the passive role in SNIT?  Do you think that he always assumed an active one, or was he more versatile.

The same questions can be asked of Jack.  For instance, did the SNIT as shown in the film imply that Jack sometimes played the active role when he had sex with Ennis?

Please remember that there are no right or wrong answers to these questions...

Well, we've already discussed this topic in great lengths in the other thread, and sorry if I went off topic there. I said I would put it to rest, so I'm just keeping my word on that. We already agreed to disagree, and I can live with that. 

[babytammy7]

I agree with you Athena!!! 

Thomas, we were getting a little bit stressed with this topic, so we agreed to put this one to rest, and now...well, here it comes again, and we are so tired, you know, because we've already discussed this topic in another thread....

Thank you so much if you understand. 

[Matt Nasty]

ive been mainly just an on looker at this topic but... i think it should just be left alone for now at least maybe when some new members join it will get active again but i think the sex in BBM is totally open to interpretation so there is no use in arguing

[tpe]

I think the key to discussions like this is just to lay out what you think, and try to discuss things in the light of differences.

We'll leave the discussion open to others, if they wish to have their say.  Only, don't insist that we all have to agree with each other. 

[aintfoolin]

 I agree. Please leave the topic open for anyone who would like to post on it. If those above choose not to discuss it further, that;s their perogative. No one is forcing anyone to post. I find the topic very inticicing and interesting.The topic includes scenes OTHER  roles and sex scenes other than Jack and Ennis here. It would be unfair to leave others out if they wish to participate in the disscussion. Who's arguing? Were merely having a passionate discussion. Thanx tpe, your .

[Matt Nasty]

I agree. Please leave the topic open for anyone who would like to post on it. If those above choose not to discuss it further, that;s their perogative. No one is forcing anyone to post. I find the topic very inticicing and interesting.The topic includes scenes OTHER  roles and sex scenes other than Jack and Ennis here. It would be unfair to leave others out if they wish to participate in the disscussion. Who's arguing? Were merely having a passionate discussion. Thanx tpe, your .

oh yer i wasnt asking for it to be closed its just ive noticed some members have been getting a bit hot under the collder over disagreements it all seems fine though now

[aintfoolin]

 Obiviously we are passionate people and that's fine.

 I'm intrigued by Jack's role in FNIT. The SS refers to him "riding more than bulls. That could be taken more ways than one. What he had in mind by initiating FNIT is open for speculation, but he was the one who seemed to have prior experiences with some type of sex here. Women? or men.? Both?  He was just a little taken aback by Lureen's forwardness in the car, but I think he was bottom here too, though he did like the direction she was  going. I feel he suspected strongly/guessed right about Ennis though in FNIT. These two scenarios though different, gives some insight into what Jack felt his role was. He was willing to be both top or bottom, but I feel he preferred the bottom role the most.

[Matt Nasty]

Obiviously we are passionate people and that's fine.

 I'm intrigued by Jack's role in FNIT. The SS refers to him "riding more than bulls. That could be taken more ways than one. What he had in mind by initiating FNIT is open for speculation, but he was the one who seemed to have prior experiences with some type of sex here. Women? or men.? Both?  He was just a little taken aback by Lureen's forwardness in the car, but I think he was bottom here too, though he did like the direction she was  going. I feel he suspected strongly/guessed right about Ennis though in FNIT. These two scenarios though different, gives some insight into what Jack felt his role was. He was willing to be both top or bottom, but I feel he preferred the bottom role the most.

i think i might agree but i do think he was top sometimes

[jackster]

I'm intrigued by Jack's role in FNIT. The SS refers to him "riding more than bulls. That could be taken more ways than one. What he had in mind by initiating FNIT is open for speculation, but he was the one who seemed to have prior experiences with some type of sex here.

Just to be a stickler here, but I feel it's important - the "riding more than bulls" phrase by Annie comes in the motel scene in '67, which is of course four years after FNIT of '63. I think the only hint we have that Jack had any more real sexual experience in 1963 than Ennis (who admitted his innocence) was Jack's statement regarding "fellas' like you an' me march off to hell" that prompted Ennis's remark. Jack could have been as virginal as Ennis, just more embarrassed to admit it, huh? He really did seem to "take charge" SNIT though, and he put the moves on Ennis with pretty good authority that looked like he knew what he was doin' - but of course as Annie says - "No instruction manual needed" Ennis did OK FNIT with no "priors". The plot lines between the SS / film script /movie can be very confusing here.

Now, Jack may have discovered it was a lot of fun (since he kinda' took to it pretty well) and in the four years '63-'67 did do all kinds of bull riding.
 

[Matt Nasty]

Just to be a stickler here, but I feel it's important - the "riding more than bulls" phrase by Annie comes in the motel scene in '67, which is of course four years after FNIT of '63. I think the only hint we have that Jack had any more real sexual experience in 1963 than Ennis (who admitted his innocence) was Jack's statement regarding "fellas' like you an' me march off to hell" that prompted Ennis's remark. Jack could have been as virginal as Ennis, just more embarrassed to admit it, huh? He really did seem to "take charge" SNIT though, and he put the moves on Ennis with pretty good authority that looked like he knew what he was doin' - but of course as Annie says - "No instruction manual needed" Ennis did OK FNIT with no "priors". The plot lines between the SS / film script /movie can be very confusing here.

Now, he may have discovered it was a lot of fun (since he kinda' took to it pretty well) and in the four years '63-'67 did do all kinds of bull riding.

ver good euphamism

[athena0204]

Just to be a stickler here, but I feel it's important - the "riding more than bulls" phrase by Annie comes in the motel scene in '67, which is of course four years after FNIT of '63. I think the only hint we have that Jack had any more real sexual experience in 1963 than Ennis (who admitted his innocence) was Jack's statement regarding "fellas' like you an' me march off to hell" that prompted Ennis's remark. Jack could have been as virginal as Ennis, just more embarrassed to admit it, huh? He really did seem to "take charge" SNIT though, and he put the moves on Ennis with pretty good authority that looked like he knew what he was doin' - but of course as Annie says - "No instruction manual needed" Ennis did OK FNIT with no "priors". The plot lines between the SS / film script /movie can be very confusing here.

Now, Jack may have discovered it was a lot of fun (since he kinda' took to it pretty well) and in the four years '63-'67 did do all kinds of bull riding.
 

You have a real good point there. I've always wondered if Jack was a virgin too. We know Ennis was, but people assume Jack wasn't simply because he seemed to know what he was doing. He really could have been a virgin, and perhaps him appearing to have some experience and initiating things with Ennis may only be because Jack was simply the one with the outgoing personality.

[Matt Nasty]

You have a real good point there. I've always wondered if Jack was a virgin too. We know Ennis was, but people assume Jack wasn't simply because he seemed to know what he was doing. He really could have been a virgin, and perhaps him appearing to have some experience and initiating things with Ennis may only be because Jack was simply the one with the outgoing personality.

hmm  posibly and it doesnt take much experience to initiate a sex act by putting a hand on you erection lol its not rocket science its quite plausible jack was also a virgin.

[babytammy7]

You have a real good point there. I've always wondered if Jack was a virgin too. We know Ennis was, but people assume Jack wasn't simply because he seemed to know what he was doing. He really could have been a virgin, and perhaps him appearing to have some experience and initiating things with Ennis may only be because Jack was simply the one with the outgoing personality.

I agree with you Athena. Maybe Jack had not experience....But if Jack was not virgin, if he had experience, I think it was with women. In the SS and in the film, before the separation for 4 years after BBM, we have no clue to say Jack has had sex with men. Annie told us that Jack has been "riding more than bulls" , but during those four years without Ennis. Before that I don't think Jack was with men. But, well, it's only my perception. 

[aintfoolin]

  Here I go again....That's the thing  I love about this film, it leaves so many open-ended questions and at the same time, suggestive.

 I happen to feel Jack  was'nt a virgin. When Ennis admitted his virginity, Jack seem surprised and  quite amused. He did'nt take the opportunity to express his own. In stead , he hands Ennis more whiskey.  Ennis decides to *take the night off*, stay in camp and get wasted with  Jack.Jack led, let's face it, he initiated FNIT which took much courage and suggests some experience seducing another man. "Fellas like you and me" , marching off to hell" already mentioned by jackster ,also suggests some *worldly" experience that warrants " his march into hell" "Waving at the girls in the stands", no doubt at least one waved back on the rodeo circuit.  The man was gorgeous,  Jack comes across to me like a guy, who 'd sneak threw a girl's window at night, while daddy slept with the shotgun under the bed.   He could be adoringly charming and still act wild and crazy, but loving Ennis did settle him .

Their sexual roles mirrored their personalities in my opinion, Ennis, somewhat open, but limited , reluctant in  his actions ( You could lead him to water, but you can't make him drink  ). Jack more open and free, more daring to take chances and dreams of making things better and better for those he loves.

[jackster]

You're absolutely right AF, the scenario you layout could work just as well as any other. This is what makes this film truly great art to me, it not only permits, it DEMANDS a variety of valid interpretations.

(Ennis . . . You could lead him to water, but you can't make him drink).

Love this horse analogy. Guess he wus purty thirsty that first night Jack lead him that water, huh?
  

[aintfoolin]

Like a man who finds an oasis in the desert. I say he was limited...not crazy 

[FlwrChild]

I agree that it's quite open to interpretation as to whether Jack was a virgin or not, with men or women.

I don't think that his initiating things in either FNIT or SNIT necessarily gives us any clues there either. I think that plenty of us have had experience with or as virgins where everyone was able to figure things out pretty well without any prior experience. As AP said, "No instruction manual needed."

As to roles and who did what, I don't know that we got a lot of clues about that either beyond the FNIT. Far as I can tell (aside from Ennis's issues with identifying as being "queer"), it could have gone either way. And even taking those concerns into account, human beings are capable of all kinds of denial. I think just the fact that Ennis spent 20 years moving heaven and earth whenever he could to meet up and make love to another man, and still told himself that it 'wasn't like that', speaks volumes about his ability to separate their relationship from the rest of his sense of identity.

I guess that's my way of saying any of you could be right in your interpretations. I'm leaving that one as undetermined in my book.

[tpe]

Reading your posts, I am reminded of the phrase "riding more than bulls" in the ss.  This does seem to indicate a more active role, no?

Of course, the Motel scene as shown in the film is a bit more ambiguous as to who played the active and passive role...

Another strong indication (for me anyway) is the logo on the tractor that Jack was shown to be riding.  The logo spelled "versatile".  One can argue that this term could indicate Jack being active with Lureen/women and passive with Ennis, but the term is usually used in the context of gay relationships.  In this context, it would seem to imply that Jack also took on the active role, as well as the passive.

[myprivatejack]

I tend to think that Jack had some previous sexual experience,and this is not marked exactly for the actions he took,but for the way he did them.His sexual initiative marked a security that -almost- only can be guided for the experience,for little that this can be;bearing in mind that it would be very difficult for a virgin boy in that age and environmental circumstances to act without this security behind with another boy.It's a feeling I have,not only because he's the most outgoing and,somehow,bold of them,easier to reveal even his most intim reactions...I'd also like to speak about this phrase that has been remarked some times in this thread:-"Fellas like you and me march off to Hell"; it maybe can be OT,but it doesn't seem so to me.I've always wondered what Jack meant with this:if he was only referring to "boys of our social class",or it's implicit some kind of allusion to his supposed sexual life-as you say,AF,he's surprised for Ennis virginity,but also reveals IMO,some hidden pleasure before the possibility of being his first lover-.Or maybe is a kind of checking Ennis out about his possible homosexuality,because the signals each one of them were sending maybe were unseen for Ennis,but not for Jack...In any case,all these behaviours are telling me that he had already had his "first time" and that his role could be interchangeable.

[athena0204]

I tend to think that Jack had some previous sexual experience,and this is not marked exactly for the actions he took,but for the way he did them.His sexual initiative marked a security that -almost- only can be guided for the experience,for little that this can be;bearing in mind that it would be very difficult for a virgin boy in that age and environmental circumstances to act without this security behind with another boy.It's a feeling I have,not only because He's the most outgoing and,somehow,bold of them,easier to reveal even his most intim reactions...I'd also like to speak about this phrase that has been remarked some times in this thread:-"Fellas like you and me march off to Hell"; it maybe can be OT,but it doesn't seem so to me.I've always wondered what Jack meant with this:if he was only referring to "boys of our social class",or it's implicit some kind of allusion to his supposed sexual life-as you say,AF,He's surprised for Ennis virginity,but also reveals IMO,some hidden pleasure before the possibility of being his first lover-.Or maybe is a kind of checking Ennis out about his possible homosexuality,because the signals each one of them were sending maybe were unseen for Ennis,but not for Jack...In any case,all these behaviours are telling me that he had already had his "first time" and that his role could be interchangeable.

Maybe when Jack said "Fellas like you and me march off to hell", I always feel he was talking about himself being homosexual, and that he had a strong feeling Ennis was homosexual too, so he said "fellas like you and me".

[jackster]

"Fellas like you and me march off to Hell"; it maybe can be OT, but it doesn't seem so to me. I've always wondered what Jack meant with this: if he was only referring to "boys of our social class",or it's implicit some kind of allusion to his supposed sexual life . . .

Speaking as an expert in these matters ( ) . . . I've always figured this meant drinking, swearing, taking the Lords name in vain, etc. etc. Since his mother "believed in the Pentecost" I figured he was instructed to believe that all the things bad boys did was a ticket to hell. Sex may or may not be a part of Jack's experience here at this point, but we know for sure he was good a swearing and drinking. Sex probably too, at least attempted sex and the desire for sex, which to many is also a ticket to the same warm environment. JMHO.

[myprivatejack]

Maybe when Jack said "Fellas like you and me march off to hell", I always feel he was talking about himself being homosexual, and that he had a strong feeling Ennis was homosexual too, so he said "fellas like you and me".

Speaking as an expert in these matters ( ) . . . I've always figured this meant drinking, swearing, taking the Lords name in vain, etc. etc. Since his mother "believed in the Pentecost" I figured he was instructed to believe that all the things bad boys did was a ticket to hell. Sex may or may not be a part of Jack's experience here at this point, but we know for sure he was good a swearing and drinking. Sex probably too, at least attempted sex and the desire for sex, which to many is also a ticket to the same warm environment. JMHO.

I agree with both of you,because on one hand,allusions to their way of living and/or to "be a sinner"-with women-are logicals in their context.But I´ve always had the feeling ,on the other hand,that in this phrase there was implicit another allusion to homosexuality;it was a kind of "discovering" what Ennis could feel about this,according to his answer to this "fellas like you and me".

[Scott6373]

Sometimes I think that we lose sight of the fact that these two characters were not educated men.  Their scope of knowledge probably did not jive with their individual experiences.  That being said, I have always held the belief that the character of Jack had previous homosexual encounters.

I would not say his relative aggressiveness in the sex department came from a personality issue, but as has been stated previously, from a certain comfort level due to his previous experience(s).  I think that Jack was the (for lack of a better term) "wilier" of the two men, and there is every reason to believe his comment about being sinners was partially designed to prod Ennis into revealing something that he (Jack) may have been suspecting or hoping for.  Up to that point in both the film and the written story, Ennis had done nothing to even let Jack know that he may possibly be gay.

[Matt Nasty]

Sometimes I think that we lose sight of the fact that these two characters were not educated men.  Their scope of knowledge probably did not jive with their individual experiences.  That being said, I have always held the belief that the character of Jack had previous homosexual encounters.

I would not say his relative aggressiveness in the sex department came from a personality issue, but as has been stated previously, from a certain comfort level due to his previous experience(s).  I think that Jack was the (for lack of a better term) "wilier" of the two men, and there is every reason to believe his comment about being sinners was partially designed to prod Ennis into revealing something that he (Jack) may have been suspecting or hoping for.  Up to that point in both the film and the written story, Ennis had done nothing to even let Jack know that he may possibly be gay.

hmmmm maybe  quite possibly actually

[jackster]

Of course we know how Ennis interpreted it when he replied:

 "Speak for yourself, you may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity"

So he thought it was sex, no doubt. Hetero or Homo, isn't spelled out.
But he sure had a cute smile when looked at Jack!
 

[Scott6373]

Of course we know how Ennis interpreted it when he replied:

 "Speak for yourself, you may be a sinner, but I ain't yet had the opportunity"

So he thought it was sex, no doubt. Hetero or Homo, isn't spelled out.
But he sure had a cute smile when looked at Jack!
 

I didn't interpret it that way when I first saw it or read it.  I assumed he Ennis took Jack's comment in general terms, and responded in kind.  I don't think he had enough deceit in his soul to read that far into Jack's comment.

[tpe]

I see that the discussion is going in the direction about prior sexual expereince and persumed virginity before BBM, which is a bit tangent to the sicussion of sexual roles.  Would you think this is OT or is it related to the current discussion? 

If not exactly related and if you would want to continue discussing thisw in greater depth, should we open another thread about this topic?

I can't recall if the topic had already been created some time ago and is somewhere here...

[Scott6373]

I think that discussing their sexual history is quite relevent in shedding light on their individual sexual identities at the time when he story took place.  JMO

[tpe]

I think that discussing their sexual history is quite relevent in shedding light on their individual sexual identities at the time when he story took place.  JMO

The "Was Ennis Gay" and the equivalent Jack threads also have extensive discussions revolving around sexual identity, but I think you mean that their sexual history is relevant to whether they were active or passive? 

The primary question at hand is whether or not each one took on a rigid sexual role (passive vs. active) or whether they were more versatile.  When we discuss their possible sexual histories, perhaps we can make a direct connection to this question?

I'll wait for additional input/comments.