Topic: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes

[Scott6373]

The "Was Ennis Gay" and the equivalent Jack threads also have extensive discussions revolving around sexual identity, but I think you mean that their sexual history is relevant to whether they were active or passive? 

Yes that is what I meant 

The primary question at hand is whether or not each one took on a rigid sexual role (passive vs. active) or whether they were more versatile.  When we discuss their possible sexual histories, perhaps we can make a direct connection to this question?

If we are talking about specific sexual activities, then I don't think there was much flexibility...to put it in delicate terms, I don't think Ennis slept in the bottom bunk...EVER.  Yet, I also think that the foreplay they engaged in was very fluid in regards to who was being comforted and who was comforting.

[Matt Nasty]

The "Was Ennis Gay" and the equivalent Jack threads also have extensive discussions revolving around sexual identity, but I think you mean that their sexual history is relevant to whether they were active or passive? 

The primary question at hand is whether or not each one took on a rigid sexual role (passive vs. active) or whether they were more versatile.  When we discuss their possible sexual histories, perhaps we can make a direct connection to this question?

I'll wait for additional input/comments.

i beleive for no particular reason that both ennis and jack both gave and recieved thats just what i think that was just the way i percieved things. we seen in FNIT that jack received but in SNIT who knows jack was on top kissing, did he stay there for the sex?
and as for the motel scene Ennis looked like he had been the passive partner by the way he was leaning in on jack but again we dont know nothing is certain.

[tpe]

Yes that is what I meant 

If we are talking about specific sexual activities, then I don't think there was much flexibility...to put it in delicate terms, I don't think Ennis slept in the bottom bunk...EVER.  Yet, I also think that the foreplay they engaged in was very fluid in regards to who was being comforted and who was comforting.

OK then.  It is relevant to a discussion of roles.

And you have put out clearly your views as to versatility, or lack thereof.  

[tpe]

i beleive for no particular reason that both ennis and jack both gave and recieved thats just what i think that was just the way i percieved things. we seen in FNIT that jack received but in SNIT who knows jack was on top kissing, did he stay there for the sex?
and as for the motel scene Ennis looked like he had been the passive partner by the way he was leaning in on jack but again we dont know nothing is certain.

Fair enough.  I do feel that there are things in those scenes that could suggest this. 

[Scott6373]

Fair enough.  I do feel that there are things in those scenes that could suggest this. 

Yes I agree with this also, but if I may insert a  bit of personal (hopefully not too) information here:  When it comes to that one activity, I am undeneiably a giver, and have never been a receiver, yet in the midst of passionate foreplay, you would never know that.  I think Ennis may have wanted that, but because of his own internalized homophobia, he would never let that happen.  IMHO

[tpe]

Yes I agree with this also, but if I may insert a  bit of personal (hopefully not too) information here:  When it comes to that one activity, I am undeneiably a giver, and have never been a receiver, yet in the midst of passionate foreplay, you would never know that.  I think Ennis may have wanted that, but because of his own internalized homophobia, he would never let that happen.  IMHO

This is where I think experience and sexual history comes in.  If one were relatively new/fresh/untried, then perhaps roles have not yet hardened into conventions. 

Interesting point you draw with homophobia.  I think I understand what you mean here.

[FlwrChild]

I agree that this is a possibility, given Ennis's general perceptions and the possible impact they could have on such choices.

I also don't know enough about why any individual chooses or prefers one role over the other, so I can't speak to that.

As to the various scenes that have been referenced as possible clues in this, I have to agree with Scott that what takes place before or after does not necessarily reflect or reveal who was in which position during.

I hope this made sense.

[Matt Nasty]

I agree that this is a possibility, given Ennis's general perceptions and the possible impact they could have on such choices.

I also don't know enough about why any individual chooses or prefers one role over the other, so I can't speak to that.

As to the various scenes that have been referenced as possible clues in this, I have to agree with Scott that what takes place before or after does not necessarily reflect or reveal who was in which position during.

I hope this made sense.

it did but me being a stuborn aries wont budge from what i think just yet

[FlwrChild]

Don't worry - we're not asking you to.

(Good thing, too, because I can be the queen of stubborn sometimes - sorry, OT)

[athena0204]

I really feel it wasn't always one way, it really doesn't make sense to me for them to be always one way. I believe that during the time he was being passionate and intimate with Jack, Ennis wouldn't be thinking of homophobia, because those were the moments he was truly free to be himself, and they both weren't thinking of who was "dominant" or "passive"...they just let things happen. So I believe Jack was on top some of the times, and Ennis was on bottom some of the times, and vice versa...that's the way I see it, and I believe their foreplay was very indicative of that.  But I don't want to stress us all out and start another argument, with pages and pages so I've already said we can agree to disagree on this one.

[Matt Nasty]

I really feel it wasn't always one way, it really doesn't make sense to me for them to be always one way. I believe that during the time he was being passionate and intimate with Jack, Ennis wouldn't be thinking of homophobia, because those were the moments he was truly free to be himself, and they both weren't thinking of who was "dominant" or "passive"...they just let things happen. So I believe Jack was on top some of the times, and Ennis was on bottom some of the times, and vice versa...that's the way I see it, and I believe their foreplay was very indicative of that.  But I don't want to stress us all out and start another argument, with pages and pages so I've already said we can agree to disagree on this one.

i agree with you on both points i beleive they were interchanging in their roles in sex and i also agree to agree to disagree  that was confusing lol.

[athena0204]

What about the women in BBM? I mean, Lureen definitely seems to be someone who knows what she wants. Cassie seemed like that too.

[Matt Nasty]

What about the women in BBM? I mean, Lureen definitely seems to be someone who knows what she wants. Cassie seemed like that too.

haha lureen seemed to be in control in the back of that car lol alma was always very passive and cassie looked as if she would have been quite active

[FlwrChild]

I just enjoy hearing the various points of view, whether they're likely to change my mind or not. As long as they're expressed with respect to the other members and their own perceptions, I'm happy. Sometimes I see things in a new way after these discussions.

For me, with this topic, whatever my speculations or impressions might be, I feel comfortable leaving this as an unknown variable in the story. Just as we only got a glimpse into their SNIT, I will close the tent flap and give them their privacy here as well.

[Matt Nasty]

I just enjoy hearing the various points of view, whether they're likely to change my mind or not. As long as they're expressed with respect to the other members and their own perceptions, I'm happy. Sometimes I see things in a new way after these discussions.

For me, with this topic, whatever my speculations or impressions might be, I feel comfortable leaving this as an unknown variable in the story. Just as we only got a glimpse into their SNIT, I will close the tent flap and give them their privacy here as well.

agreed the sex isnt nearly as important as the love which we know was beautiful  lol

[athena0204]

haha lureen seemed to be in control in the back of that car lol alma was always very passive and cassie looked as if she would have been quite active

Yeah, Alma's nature strikes me as passive even though she does try to initiate things with Ennis. Alma wasn't the type of person who was really comfortable with sexuality, unlike Lureen and Cassie. Do you think Lureen caught Jack by surprise?

[Matt Nasty]

Yeah, Alma's nature strikes me as passive even though she does try to initiate things with Ennis. Alma wasn't the type of person who was really comfortable with sexuality, unlike Lureen and Cassie. Do you think Lureen caught Jack by surprise?

yea she did lol i could see in those beautiful eyes of his he was thinking "i waited longer thn this before FNIT man shes fast", lol

[manhattangirl]

Lureen is a question?  No matter how aggressive she was at first, there was a slow erosion of the relationship as the years went on.  Jack seem to blame it on her and continuing interest in the business.  So what it was that made her find solice in an "adding machine" than her husband?

Alma, Lureen and Cassie, from what I see, couldn't compete with intensity of Jack and Ennis relationship, even though their saw each other only a "once or twice" a year. 

Jack and Ennis was so totally unaware how they affected the women in their lives.  The indifference Ennis showed Alma, as he rolled off Alma, the distance between Jack and Lureen, and the inability of Cassie even being able to get a clue at what made Ennis tick, she had to ask Alma, Jr.   

All these women were caught up in the wake of the love these two men had for each other.  The sexual aspect of Jack and Ennis couldn't be touched or matched by any of these women.   No matter  what went on with Jack and Ennis, the battle within Ennis, Jack simmering impatience, it didn't diminish the need for both had for each other, and I think it was all set aside, when they laid down with each other, and roles could have been interchangeable, or maybe no roles at all.  It could have been just that touch, that sound, an intake of breath that could have determine what would go on between them at that moment. 

Just my take.

[orangetruck]

Lureen is a question?  No matter how aggressive she was at first, there was a slow erosion of the relationship as the years went on.  Jack seem to blame it on her and continuing interest in the business.  So what it was that made her find solice in an "adding machine" than her husband?

Alma, Lureen and Cassie, from what I see, couldn't compete with intensity of Jack and Ennis relationship, even though their saw each other only a "once or twice" a year. 

Jack and Ennis was so totally unaware how they affected the women in their lives.  The indifference Ennis showed Alma, as he rolled off Alma, the distance between Jack and Lureen, and the inability of Cassie even being able to get a clue at what made Ennis tick, she had to ask Alma, Jr.   

All these women were caught up in the wake of the love these two men had for each other.  The sexual aspect of Jack and Ennis couldn't be touched or matched by any of these women.   No matter  what went on with Jack and Ennis, the battle within Ennis, Jack simmering impatience, it didn't diminish the need for both had for each other, and I think it was all set aside, when they laid down with each other, and roles could have been interchangeable, or maybe no roles at all.  It could have been just that touch, that sound, an intake of breath that could have determine what would go on between them at that moment. 

Just my take.

F*ckin' beautiful.     

[jackster]

F*ckin' beautiful.     

I'll second that MHG. 

[athena0204]

Lureen is a question?  No matter how aggressive she was at first, there was a slow erosion of the relationship as the years went on.  Jack seem to blame it on her and continuing interest in the business.  So what it was that made her find solice in an "adding machine" than her husband?

Alma, Lureen and Cassie, from what I see, couldn't compete with intensity of Jack and Ennis relationship, even though their saw each other only a "once or twice" a year. 

Jack and Ennis was so totally unaware how they affected the women in their lives.  The indifference Ennis showed Alma, as he rolled off Alma, the distance between Jack and Lureen, and the inability of Cassie even being able to get a clue at what made Ennis tick, she had to ask Alma, Jr.   

All these women were caught up in the wake of the love these two men had for each other.  The sexual aspect of Jack and Ennis couldn't be touched or matched by any of these women.   No matter  what went on with Jack and Ennis, the battle within Ennis, Jack simmering impatience, it didn't diminish the need for both had for each other, and I think it was all set aside, when they laid down with each other, and roles could have been interchangeable, or maybe no roles at all.  It could have been just that touch, that sound, an intake of breath that could have determine what would go on between them at that moment. 

Just my take.

Yes, that's true. And it wasn't just the sexual aspect of it. It's the whole true, deep, pure love that Jack and Ennis had. No woman (or man) in their lives could ever, ever come even a little bit close to that. It was an epic love. Ennis and Jack could never feel the love they had for each other for anyone else, that's why it was indeed true love. They were truly each other's soulmates.

[Matt Nasty]

Yes, that's true. And it wasn't just the sexual aspect of it. It's the whole true, deep, pure love that Jack and Ennis had. No woman (or man) in their lives could ever, ever come even a little bit close to that. It was an epic love. Ennis and Jack could never feel the love they had for each other for anyone else, that's why it was indeed true love. They were truly each other's soulmates.

yep they had the truest love ive ever seen or heard off

[aintfoolin]

I get the feeling this was'nt Lureen's first rodeo , and Cassie was no wall flower waiting to be plucked. Alma, she's another story, but these women went after who they wanted, which made it even more convenient for the boys. They did'nt have to pursue them traditionally, but their strong-willed personalities may have posed a more dangerous scenario for Ennis and Jack. Except for Alma's case, suspecting is one thing, knowing for sure is another. They only had to tell one person, a friend, a mother etc..., and the story gets bigger on down the line. Though I see both Cassie and Lureen as agressive women, there are still expectations when it came to men sexually. Just imagine if Ennis was married to Cassie instead of Alma during the reunion scene. No doubt, that scene would have gone very differently than it did. It would not be pretty.

[manhattangirl]

I get the feeling this was'nt Lureen's first rodeo , and Cassie was no wall flower waiting to be plucked. Alma, she's another story, but these women went after who they wanted, which made it even more convenient for the boys. They did'nt have to pursue them traditionally, but their strong-willed personalities may have posed a more dangerous scenario for Ennis and Jack. Except for Alma's case, suspecting is one thing, knowing for sure is another. They only had to tell one person, a friend, a mother etc..., and the story gets bigger on down the line. Though I see both Cassie and Lureen as agressive women, there are still expectations when it came to men sexually. Just imagine if Ennis was married to Cassie instead of Alma during the reunion scene. No doubt, that scene would have gone very differently than it did. It would not be pretty.

Well the cops would have been called out that night.  With Ennis explosive temper it would have been a frying pan  or 30.30 in Cassie's hand that night. 

Seriously, neither of them got a beat on either man, Cassie or Lureen.  Strong personality is all well and good, but if someone is not letting you near them, what good does it do?  In the long run, how well did they know deep down the men in their lives?

[athena0204]

I get the feeling this was'nt Lureen's first rodeo , and Cassie was no wall flower waiting to be plucked. Alma, she's another story, but these women went after who they wanted, which made it even more convenient for the boys. They did'nt have to pursue them traditionally, but their strong-willed personalities may have posed a more dangerous scenario for Ennis and Jack. Except for Alma's case, suspecting is one thing, knowing for sure is another. They only had to tell one person, a friend, a mother etc..., and the story gets bigger on down the line. Though I see both Cassie and Lureen as agressive women, there are still expectations when it came to men sexually. Just imagine if Ennis was married to Cassie instead of Alma during the reunion scene. No doubt, that scene would have gone very differently than it did. It would not be pretty.

Well, first off, Ennis wouldn't have "pursued" anyone anyway. He was very much someone who played by the rules (except when it came to Jack, of course). It's why Ennis was a virgin when he was engaged to Alma...very much playing by the rules of a traditional society. Alma was quite the traditionalist as well. Cassie and Lureen, of course, as well as Jack, all quite the maverick personalities. I do agree, that although Cassie wasn't a traditionalist...seeing Ennis was in love with another man would have been huge...she would have probably gone down those stairs right in the middle of their kissing! Yeah, Ennis's secret would definitely have been no secret for long.

[babytammy7]

Speaking about the women in the film...uh..I think is OT, but well, I don't know where to talk about this....(help me, please?  )

We everybody knows that Jack liked men, but in Texas, during the rodeo where Jack met Lureen, when Lureen winked at Jack after Jack gave her the hat, Jack's face is all gooey, dreamy. He looked at her all shy and happy, and when she was riding away he was looking in her direction, smiling softly and with "that" face, you know. I mean, you can tell he liked Lureen. Please look at that face carefully. I know everybody thinks that Jack only wanted her for her money, but in that scene Jack looks at her sweetly. And later, in the bar, he was looking at her all the time BEFORE the barman said to him that his father had money. Maybe Jack liked women too....I wonder...   

And I noticed that Jack made the first move with Ennis and Jimbo, the clown, but with Lureen he was all shy. First at the rodeo (he looks so innocent there, almost like a child) and then in the bar, unable to go to where she was, and unable to say a word when she spoke to him finally. So, was Jack more confident with men?   

I have so many doubts here.   

[Matt Nasty]

Speaking about the women in the film...uh..I think is OT, but well, I don't know where to talk about this....(help me, please?  )

We everybody knows that Jack liked men, but in Texas, during the rodeo where Jack met Lureen, when Lureen winked at Jack after Jack gave her the hat, Jack's face is all gooey, dreamy. He looked at her all shy and happy, and when she was riding away he was looking in her direction, smiling softly and with "that" face, you know. I mean, you can tell he liked Lureen. Please look at that face carefully. I know everybody thinks that Jack only wanted her for her money, but in that scene Jack looks at her sweetly. And later, in the bar, he was looking at her all the time BEFORE the barman said to him that his father had money. Maybe Jack liked women too....I wonder...   

And I noticed that Jack made the first move with Ennis and Jimbo, the clown, but with Lureen he was all shy. First at the rodeo (he looks so innocent there, almost like a child) and then in the bar, unable to go to where she was, and unable to say a word when she spoke to him finally. So, was Jack more confident with men?   

I have so many doubts here.   

i often wonder if what jack had for lureen was similar to what i have for jake a love out side the sexual preference  but obviously it still wasnt as strong as his love for ennis.

[aintfoolin]

 He did seem attractted to Lureen, found her beautiful, but it was she who actively pursued him. Looks to me like she had her heart set on him, alone and appears to turn down other pursuers in the bar. He kept looking, she kept looking, but it was she who made the *mating call* I wonder if she had'nt came over, would he have gone to her? When Jack was left to actively pursue someone, it was a man. I feel men were his preference.

[manhattangirl]

He did seem attractted to Lureen, found her beautiful, but it was she who actively pursued him. Looks to me like she had her heart set on him, alone and appears to turn down other pursuers in the bar. He kept looking, she kept looking, but it was she who made the *mating call* I wonder if she had'nt came over, would he have gone to her? When Jack was left to actively pursue someone, it was a man. I feel men were his preference.

I agree.  Jack's personality was definitely not "Ennis like", but after the "Jimbo" disaster Jack was not taking any chances.   Jack lonely, probably missing Ennis, needed to connect with someone anyone.  And Lureen set her sights on him, and went in for the kill.  And Jack let's face it, broke, hungry and lonely, he was easy pickins.  Is this a moral dilemma some might see it that way, but not if you're hungry, how long Jack resisted his need for a man, you're guess is as good as mine. 

[aintfoolin]

Lureen was a little temptress alright. Texas style! I had the same look Jack had on his face when she whipped off that bra. heellooo .  ;)Can't really blame her from the looks of Jack, but Jack had already experienced the love of a life time. He was lookin right, gorgeous, yes, but she did'nt really know him.  he married her , but did he really know her? I don't think so.  I agree, he was so broke, diectionless  and hungry+ Ennis had done it, why not? I think he liked her a whole lot, but love? Nah, not imo.They were so young ,and that breeds foolishness and ignorance as well. The marriage had no solid true basis. Jack was still in love with Ennis, the opposite of Lureen  in every way.  Lureen felt she could have it all, a gorgeous guy to show off to Texas society, money and a great carreer , the perfect set up right? Wrong.
 I feel every experience , including sexual ,he had with her would  be compared to the one he cherished.  Don't think it came close to what he really wanted. Came back hoping to work with Ennis again the following summer true to his word. Not the actions of someone who's found love, lost love, and moved on.  Only four yrs. later he can't stand it any longer and seeks Ennis out again.

 4 yrs, A time period that does not really suggest longevity in a marriage of those times, but must've seemed  a lifetime to Jack who I feel, always felt he would re-unite again with Ennis ,the only one who completes him in every way. love that scene in the motel room where he claims he did'nt know thet gonna "git into it agin", then has to  admit he redlined it all the way...That grin Marriage to the beautiful rodeo champ Lureen, and family life, left much to be desired I feel  he eventually came to resent her because she was'nt Ennis.