Topic: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes

[athena0204]

Lureen was a little temptress alright. Texas style! I had the same look Jack had on his face when she whipped off that bra. heellooo .  ;)Can't really blame her from the looks of Jack, but Jack had already experienced the love of a life time. He was lookin right, gorgeous, yes, but she did'nt really know him.  he married her , but did he really know her? I don't think so.  I agree, he was so broke, diectionless  and hungry+ Ennis had done it, why not? I think he liked her a whole lot, but love? Nah, not imo.They were so young ,and that breeds foolishness and ignorance as well. The marriage had no solid true basis. Jack was still in love with Ennis, the opposite of Lureen  in every way.  Lureen felt she could have it all, a gorgeous guy to show off to Texas society, money and a great carreer , the perfect set up right? Wrong.
 I feel every experience , including sexual ,he had with her would  be compared to the one he cherished.  Don't think it came close to what he really wanted. Came back hoping to work with Ennis again the following summer true to his word. Not the actions of someone who's found love, lost love, and moved on.  Only four yrs. later he can't stand it any longer and seeks Ennis out again.

 4 yrs, A time period that does not really suggest longevity in a marriage of those times, but must've seemed  a lifetime to Jack who I feel, always felt he would re-unite again with Ennis ,the only one who completes him in every way. love that scene in the motel room where he claims he did'nt know thet gonna "git into it agin", then has to  admit he redlined it all the way...That grin Marriage to the beautiful rodeo champ Lureen, and family life, left much to be desired I feel  he eventually came to resent her because she was'nt Ennis.

Yes, you said it all. In the beginning, Jack liked Lureen. It wasn't love, because Jack already had one true love, Ennis, of course, but there was a liking towards Lureen that Jack must have felt. Like the liking someone has for a nice friend. Their marriage had everything to do with Jack being broke and feeling like he didn't know where he was going in life. Lureen's motives for marriage...exactly like you said. She thought Jack was part of having it all...a gorgeous guy to have waiting for her at the end of a long day at work. Little did she know his heart was elsewhere...and eventually that feeling of liking that Jack had for Lureen in the beginning turns to resentment and a feeling of being trapped because as you said...she's not his one true love, nothing can ever come close to the power and depth of true love. Jack belonged with only one person, his soulmate, Ennis.

[babytammy7]

He did seem attractted to Lureen, found her beautiful, but it was she who actively pursued him. Looks to me like she had her heart set on him, alone and appears to turn down other pursuers in the bar. He kept looking, she kept looking, but it was she who made the *mating call* I wonder if she had'nt came over, would he have gone to her? When Jack was left to actively pursue someone, it was a man. I feel men were his preference.

I agree.  Jack's personality was definitely not "Ennis like", but after the "Jimbo" disaster Jack was not taking any chances.   Jack lonely, probably missing Ennis, needed to connect with someone anyone.  And Lureen set her sights on him, and went in for the kill.  And Jack let's face it, broke, hungry and lonely, he was easy pickins.  Is this a moral dilemma some might see it that way, but not if you're hungry, how long Jack resisted his need for a man, you're guess is as good as mine. 

Lureen was a little temptress alright. Texas style! I had the same look Jack had on his face when she whipped off that bra. heellooo .  ;)Can't really blame her from the looks of Jack, but Jack had already experienced the love of a life time. He was lookin right, gorgeous, yes, but she did'nt really know him.  he married her , but did he really know her? I don't think so.  I agree, he was so broke, diectionless  and hungry+ Ennis had done it, why not? I think he liked her a whole lot, but love? Nah, not imo.They were so young ,and that breeds foolishness and ignorance as well. The marriage had no solid true basis. Jack was still in love with Ennis, the opposite of Lureen  in every way.  Lureen felt she could have it all, a gorgeous guy to show off to Texas society, money and a great carreer , the perfect set up right? Wrong.
 I feel every experience , including sexual ,he had with her would  be compared to the one he cherished.  Don't think it came close to what he really wanted. Came back hoping to work with Ennis again the following summer true to his word. Not the actions of someone who's found love, lost love, and moved on.  Only four yrs. later he can't stand it any longer and seeks Ennis out again.  
4 yrs, A time period that does not really suggest longevity in a marriage of those times, but must've seemed  a lifetime to Jack who I feel, always felt he would re-unite again with Ennis ,the only one who completes him in every way. love that scene in the motel room where he claims he did'nt know thet gonna "git into it agin", then has to  admit he redlined it all the way...That grin Marriage to the beautiful rodeo champ Lureen, and family life, left much to be desired I feel  he eventually came to resent her because she was'nt Ennis.

I agree girls. I've always thought that Jack liked Lureen because she was beautiful and kind, and he was so alone, missing Ennis, broke and hungry, after the Jimbo humiliation, far from home, without friends, needing to connect with another human being, needing friendship and companionship, someone to caress him and love him. When you are drowning in the sea you hold whatever you can reach, even if that is a nail burning hot, if you know what a mean. Loneliness and hunger...so much for that Jack 20 years old.

[Matt Nasty]

I agree girls. I've always thought that Jack liked Lureen because she was beautiful and kind, and he was so alone, missing Ennis, broke and hungry, after the Jimbo humiliation, far from home, without friends, needing to connect with another human being, needing friendship and companionship, someone to caress him and love him. When you are drowning in the sea you hold whatever you can reach, even if that is a nail burning hot, if you know what a mean. Loneliness and hunger...so much for that Jack 20 years old.

hmm true

[myprivatejack]

I agree girls. I've always thought that Jack liked Lureen because she was beautiful and kind, and he was so alone, missing Ennis, broke and hungry, after the Jimbo humiliation, far from home, without friends, needing to connect with another human being, needing friendship and companionship, someone to caress him and love him. When you are drowning in the sea you hold whatever you can reach, even if that is a nail burning hot, if you know what a mean. Loneliness and hunger...so much for that Jack 20 years old.

Yes,I agree too,even if I think that there was a component of some sexual attraction also in Jack's side.She was beautiful,young,sexy,the perfect companion for someone,indeed,so lonely and sad for having lost his true love as Jack was.There was enough basis as to build a more or less strong relationship,because it's more than possible than Lureen fell for him,even in a very frivolous and superficial way-of course,not a solid basis enough as to build a marriage...-.After that,both of them was the perfect partner for each other; as you said,for Lureen,Jack was a gorgeous boy to introduce to society,who was a hard worker-bearing in mind the economical side of their marriage,that soon became practically the only one-and,why couldn't it be? could represent a kind of rebellion against her father's strict rules,making her own life in her own home with someone old Newsome didn't like too much,moreover.And for Jack,his wife represented a security-both social,economical and sexual; in this case,against gossip and suspicious glances-,a very necessary smokescreen when he decided to look for his real love,Ennis.He knew very well,and as we see some years after,that two married men are less in the hurricane's eye than two singles and/ or divorced.But I really think that,in the beginning,there was some kind of attraction for both sides.

[tpe]

What about the women in BBM? I mean, Lureen definitely seems to be someone who knows what she wants. Cassie seemed like that too.

I suspect that Lureen took charge most of the time, although I am quite sure shw was always on the receiving end. 

[sassym]

hmm  posibly and it doesnt take much experience to initiate a sex act by putting a hand on you erection lol its not rocket science its quite plausible jack was also a virgin.

I've always felt that a 19 year old Jack in 1963 was as virginal as Ennis, but that he recognized his attraction to Ennis and Ennis's attraction to him, shown so wonderfully by Ang in the film.
 I remember  being 19 and  with the  attraction those two boys had for each other, coupled with daily interaction, and living in close quarters, FNIT was inevitable.

[sassym]

Lureen is a question?  No matter how aggressive she was at first, there was a slow erosion of the relationship as the years went on.  Jack seem to blame it on her and continuing interest in the business.  So what it was that made her find solice in an "adding machine" than her husband?

Alma, Lureen and Cassie, from what I see, couldn't compete with intensity of Jack and Ennis relationship, even though their saw each other only a "once or twice" a year. 

Jack and Ennis was so totally unaware how they affected the women in their lives.  The indifference Ennis showed Alma, as he rolled off Alma, the distance between Jack and Lureen, and the inability of Cassie even being able to get a clue at what made Ennis tick, she had to ask Alma, Jr.   

All these women were caught up in the wake of the love these two men had for each other.  The sexual aspect of Jack and Ennis couldn't be touched or matched by any of these women.   No matter  what went on with Jack and Ennis, the battle within Ennis, Jack simmering impatience, it didn't diminish the need for both had for each other, and I think it was all set aside, when they laid down with each other, and roles could have been interchangeable, or maybe no roles at all.  It could have been just that touch, that sound, an intake of breath that could have determine what would go on between them at that moment. 

Just my take.

That's the most beautiful thing I've read in a long long time. Glad I came over today:)

[tpe]

I've always felt that a 19 year old Jack in 1963 was as virginal as Ennis, but that he recognized his attraction to Ennis and Ennis's attraction to him, shown so wonderfully by Ang in the film.
 I remember  being 19 and  with the  attraction those two boys had for each other, coupled with daily interaction, and living in close quarters, FNIT was inevitable.

It is entirely plausible that Jack was also virgin prior to the summer of 63 -- what we think of as hints of expereince may just be a facade.  If this were indeed the case, then it is also probable that sexual roles reamined ambiguous/not set for both of them when they met.

[Scott6373]

It is entirely plausible that Jack was also virgin prior to the summer of 63 -- what we think of as hints of expereince may just be a facade.  If this were indeed the case, then it is also probable that sexual roles reamined ambiguous/not set for both of them when they met.

We would need to specify whether we are discussing movie or book Jack.  In the book, it was narrative, not dialogue, that hinted at Jack's pre-1963 sexual past.  The would give more credence to it being fact not interpretation.  The movie (as is the case with so many of these discussions) was far more ambiguous.

[tpe]

We would need to specify whether we are discussing movie or book Jack.  In the book, it was narrative, not dialogue, that hinted at Jack's pre-1963 sexual past.  The would give more credence to it being fact not interpretation.  The movie (as is the case with so many of these discussions) was far more ambiguous.

Yes, the movie is much more ambiguous -- although I do think there were hints in some of the scenes that would lead us to believe that he did have some prior experience (if we are to believe that Jack was actively finding a way to get both of them to spend the night in the camp at the same time, for example).

[Scott6373]

Yes, the movie is much more ambiguous -- although I do think there were hints in some of the scenes that would lead us to believe that he did have some prior experience (if we are to believe that Jack was actively finding a way to get both of them to spend the night in the camp at the same time, for example).

Simple but true, but this thought hit me...are we coloring Jack's motivations with our own experiences of subtle sexual manipulation?

[tpe]

Simple but true, but this thought hit me...are we coloring Jack's motivations with our own experiences of subtle sexual manipulation?

We probably are.  There is enough ambiguity with both Jack and Ennis for this to be rendered quite probable.  In the case of Jack, in particular, I am convinced that each of us views his motivations in some form of personal lens.

[babytammy7]

Yes, the movie is much more ambiguous -- although I do think there were hints in some of the scenes that would lead us to believe that he did have some prior experience (if we are to believe that Jack was actively finding a way to get both of them to spend the night in the camp at the same time, for example).

I don't know well why Jack wanted Ennis to stay in the camp, but he wanted that for sure. First he was bitching about Aguirre and when Ennis told him about change roles he said that the TWO of them should sleep in the camp. Then Ennis said again that he would be happy up with the sheep at night, and Jack gave him a look and said to him that he was not gonna sleep much up there, like trying to persuade him to stay. That very day when Ennis was by his horse getting ready to leave, Jack said AGAIN that he was not gonna sleep much, like saying "stay here".

I see that as Jack wanting Ennis to sleep in the same tend with him, but maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, that doesn't mean that Jack wanted sex or that Jack had experience in sex.

[myprivatejack]

I don't know well why Jack wanted Ennis to stay in the camp, but he wanted that for sure. First he was bitching about Aguirre and when Ennis told him about change roles he said that the TWO of them should sleep in the camp. Then Ennis said again that he would be happy up with the sheep at night, and Jack gave him a look and said to him that he was not gonna sleep much up there, like trying to persuade him to stay. That very day when Ennis was by his horse getting ready to leave, Jack said AGAIN that he was not gonna sleep much, like saying "stay here".

I see that as Jack wanting Ennis to sleep in the same tend with him, but maybe I'm wrong. Anyway, that doesn't mean that Jack wanted sex or that Jack had experience in sex.

Jack wanted Ennis to sleep in the same tend with him because he was looking for sex with him since he felt attracted from the very moment they met...That's something already known,even if they ALSO had a strong friendship.And,on the other hand,Jack showed some slightly obvious seduction's skills,maybe too many in the Case's of homosexual seduction for the first time-a 19 years old boy can be prepared for this with girls,but not always with another boy,and much more in that age...-.However,yes,it results a little ambiguous,above all in the movie.

[manhattangirl]

I think it was Ennis who really wanted to stay in camp that night, and made the decision "its too late to go up to them sheep".    Ennis growing attachment to Jack all started when he lost the food.   Jack was nonjudgemental, he was concerned about Ennis's well being, and when Ennis wanted to stick with beans, Jack saw it differently, saw a lot of things differently.   Ennis may have not understood what he was feeling, but he was feeling something for his new friend.  And from that moment on wanted to be near him.   

[tpe]

Good points here.

As Tammy said, Jack "designing" it all doesn't necessarily mean that he had sexual experience beforehand, although it does hint at him being more calculating -- something we see a lot with people who are a bit more experienced.  As MPJ noted, Jack seemd to be more well versed in the art of seduction.  Although I msut agree with MG in that I felt that Ennis did also want to stay the night during the FNIT, even though I would tend to think that Ennis was probably less experienced or inexperienced...

[myprivatejack]

Good points here.

As Tammy said, Jack "designing" it all doesn't necessarily mean that he had sexual experience beforehand, although it does hint at him being more calculating -- something we see a lot with people who are a bit more experienced.  As MPJ noted, Jack seemd to be more well versed in the art of seduction.  Although I msut agree with MG in that I felt that Ennis did also want to stay the night during the FNIT, even though I would tend to think that Ennis was probably less experienced or inexperienced...

Oh,I didn't explain myself well enough¡: I also feel that Ennis also wanted to stay with Jack during FNIT.I've never said the contrary,in fact...I only was answering to Tammy's post where she was speaking about how Jack seemed to insist to have Ennis stayed in the camp.But only about Jack's wishes in this sense,what it's obvious,at least for me,that was also shared by Ennis.The only difference was that Jack,always more demonstrative and open,knew better how to get this; letting aside the fact that he surely had some previous experience and more seduction's abilities,consequently.

[aintfoolin]

I think it all depends on what exactly was going through Jack's mind when he said " you'll freeze your ass off when the fire dies down", and Ennis's having yet had the "opportunity" to experience sex.. Jack was trying to coax Ennis into the tent then. Was he concerned so much that Ennis was cold and "hammering "his teeth,?  Maybe,or was it  something more? Why was he still up in the middle of the night when the fire did die down? Just could'nt sleep I guess. Nah, I feel Jack put 2 and 2 together when Ennis decided to stay in camp with him that night. Feel he figured Ennis wanted something to happen from the the moment he confessed his lack of "opportunity". and knew Ennis was never gonna make that first move. Ennis's insistence on sleeping outside the tent is telling, tells me that Ennis knew Jack wanted him in the tent for a reason. other than "warmth". I feel he did'nt know when, but I think he anticipated something from Jack. He was holding back as Ennis does alot, but when Jack all but demanded he "get in here" he goes in. Jack ends up snuggled back up against Ennis with PLENTY of room left in the bedroll on his side. Warmth? or a calculated step by Jack on the way to his seduction in FNIT? The camera angle makes a point to show this. When Jack finally does make  his move, it is an insistent, dertermined one. Ennis puts up a brief struggle, but readily gives in to what he knew would happen eventually. It just took a little *prompting* from Jack to get this episode underway.Sounds calculating on Jack's part, but Ennis's decision to stay in camp goes against his strict *work ethic* but presents Jack with the opportunity they both sought to have. None of this proves that Jack had *first hand* experience, but imo he sure looked like he knew what he was doing. His attempt to pick up the rodeo clown, post Brokeback  to me, says this is not something a near-virgin would do. I think he'd done it before with success, but it "nobody's business but ours". Who could blame him, Ennis was giving off all sorts of signals + he was a walking dream come true.   My take on it.

[babytammy7]

Mmmmm, I have doubts here. I know that Jack wanted Ennis to sleep in the tend with him (I said that in my previous post) and I also know that Ennis wanted too. But I think what led them to FNIT was all premeditated but what happens that very night in camp not. I mean, of course Jack wanted to have Ennis in the tend, but I think that when he said " you'll freeze your ass off when the fire dies down”, he meant it. That was true, Ennis will die of cold!!! And I think when he said “get in here” he was really concerned about Ennis being so cold. We all saw how worried and concerned was Jack during the bear incident. He loved Ennis and he wanted him to be OK, so I think that, yeah he wanted Ennis to sleep with him, but he really wanted Ennis to be warm and safe too. Jack was so loving and caring, don’t forget it. Of course, then he did the right movements because the situation was perfect, but I think that night he was not calculating. When we saw him in the tend he was not open eyes, thinking, just waiting for Ennis like SNIT. He was half asleep, trying to really sleep, and he seemed some “annoyed” when he couldn’t sleep because of Ennis hammering, or maybe he was annoyed because the stubborn Ennis was cold out there for not wanting to sleep in the tend by his side. I don’t know well, but being caring and open like Jack was and fight for what you want doesn’t mean that you are calculating or you are an experienced seducer. And I’m NOT saying that Jack was virgin, but I think that there are a lot of people out there who has not experience in some things and they go for them not matter what. I see that all time at work: people doing things so confident, to be promoted, when they are scared too and they have no idea of what they are doing. I see that everyday with my friends in love. There are so many young couples where the two of them have no experience and one of them always does the first move and act like he/she knows what to do and how to do it. Seduction? Yeah, but there are 15 years old teens who are good seducers and there are people 40 years old who are not able to do what Jack did. Sometimes when you want something you do anything to get what you want, knowing or not what to do. I call that to be brave. Jack was that all his life.

I agree with all your posts. I’m only trying here to show that maybe Ennis went there not only because he wanted Jack but also because he was cold; and Jack not only called Ennis to had him there with him, but because he didn’t want his friend to freeze his ass. Sometimes the most simply things are the true. I give them and their good faith and friendship some credit. Just MHO. 

[Matt Nasty]

well put tammy i too beleive part of the reason jack told ennis to come in the tent that night really was out of concern for his friends helth because of the cold not just simply because jack wanted an oppertunity to lure Ennis in for sex.

[manhattangirl]

Ennis to me is a classic passive aggressive, (I hope I'm using it correctly).   It was too late to go to the sheep,  he stays in camp, Jack's offers the tent for the night, he chose to sleep outside, when the fire goes out,  instead of relighting it, he makes noises knowing full well Jack wasn't going let him sleep in the cold.   Jacks makes his move, Ennis takes over.   I may sound cynical, but I'm not, These two were headed for a collision, (using a term that one of our brokies coined in his own tread),  that led to what happened that night.   JMO.

[myprivatejack]

Ennis to me is a classic passive aggressive, (I hope I'm using it correctly).   It was too late to go to the sheep,  he stays in camp, Jack's offers the tent for the night, he chose to sleep outside, when the fire goes out,  instead of relighting it, he makes noises knowing full well Jack wasn't going let him sleep in the cold.   Jacks makes his move, Ennis takes over.   I may sound cynical, but I'm not, These two were headed for a collision, (using a term that one of our brokies coined in his own tread),  that led to what happened that night.   JMO.

Yes,you're right in that the collision was unavoidable between the two of them,and that they have been looking for them some time ago.But for me the problem isn't as much about words and/or actions they did that night,but as about many former others...I mean,they have been sending signals in many ways long before,what was more evident in the hours prior to FNIT.In Ennis case,the first move would never have been done,and Jack was afraid to scare him if his own more open and bolder way of being led him to a too sudden approachment.
So,that afternoon they began to speak,to make jokes...and to drink during hours and hours.Ennis left his duty of going up the mountain with sheep to be with his friend,both consciously and unconsciously;maybe he knew that alcohol takes a lot of inhibition away and he played the game until the end.And Jack didn't ask him to do his duty because he also wanted to be with him,so,in exchange,he full Ennis can with whiskey or gave him the bottle again and again,and the other accepted; Jack also knew the alcohol effects,and how this could help to his intentions,so,he also played the game until the end.
And in this end,both of them were drunken but not enough as to not knowing what could happenned,what Ennis wished and was afraid about at the same time...For this reason,he didn't want to go to the tent from the beginning,until the cold-yes,I'm innocent here,but I guess the cold made Jack ask him to enter in the tent and made Ennis do it,in spite of his fears...-until the cold obliged him to make what he wished,and what he knew was going to happen soon.It's to say,for me,the sharing of the tent was an innocent and logical conclusion to some former hours that led to FNIT,during which their behaviour was premeditated and,so,not so innocent.

[aintfoolin]

Mmmmm, I have doubts here. I know that Jack wanted Ennis to sleep in the tend with him (I said that in my previous post) and I also know that Ennis wanted too. But I think what led them to FNIT was all premeditated but what happens that very night in camp not. I mean, of course Jack wanted to have Ennis in the tend, but I think that when he said " you'll freeze your ass off when the fire dies down”, he meant it. That was true, Ennis will die of cold!!! And I think when he said “get in here” he was really concerned about Ennis being so cold. We all saw how worried and concerned was Jack during the bear incident. He loved Ennis and he wanted him to be OK, so I think that, yeah he wanted Ennis to sleep with him, but he really wanted Ennis to be warm and safe too. Jack was so loving and caring, don’t forget it. Of course, then he did the right movements because the situation was perfect, but I think that night he was not calculating. When we saw him in the tend he was not open eyes, thinking, just waiting for Ennis like SNIT. He was half asleep, trying to really sleep, and he seemed some “annoyed” when he couldn’t sleep because of Ennis hammering, or maybe he was annoyed because the stubborn Ennis was cold out there for not wanting to sleep in the tend by his side. I don’t know well, but being caring and open like Jack was and fight for what you want doesn’t mean that you are calculating or you are an experienced seducer. And I’m NOT saying that Jack was virgin, but I think that there are a lot of people out there who has not experience in some things and they go for them not matter what. I see that all time at work: people doing things so confident, to be promoted, when they are scared too and they have no idea of what they are doing. I see that everyday with my friends in love. There are so many young couples where the two of them have no experience and one of them always does the first move and act like he/she knows what to do and how to do it. Seduction? Yeah, but there are 15 years old teens who are good seducers and there are people 40 years old who are not able to do what Jack did. Sometimes when you want something you do anything to get what you want, knowing or not what to do. I call that to be brave. Jack was that all his life.

I agree with all your posts. I’m only trying here to show that maybe Ennis went there not only because he wanted Jack but also because he was cold; and Jack not only called Ennis to had him there with him, but because he didn’t want his friend to freeze his ass. Sometimes the most simply things are the true. I give them and their good faith and friendship some credit. Just MHO. 

 I see what your saying, believe me ,and I ,by no means intend to undermine the fact that  Jack was a caring,  nuturing individual. He proved it many times throughout the film.
 It was in the scene where Jack is singing and talking about his mother that Ennis decided he was'nt going back to the sheep. It was still light out. He could've cut short their time and left, he chose to stay. He was with Jack and decided to take a night off and spend it with him. Next time we see him, he's so drunk, he can't stand.  It's dark by the time he's crawling around on his hands and knees. Certainly now, not only is  it too late, He's in no condition to ride a horse anywhere!. Not saying that Jack was not concerned for Ennis's health,  Ennis was shivering cold when the fire died down. but opportunty to be with Ennis at night together did'nt come along often. . I'm sure Ennis was no stranger to sleeping in the cold, but  maybe the word *calculating* has some evil , negative overtone.  I'm not implying that Jack was doing/did anything wrong. Jack wanted him in the tent with him. to be close. Maybe I should say ,he took advantage of the opportunity givin him.

I feel Ennis was between wanting to be lured in and not wanting to be lured by Jack, but he was'nt gonna crawl in on a suggestion that he would freeze to death. Yes, Jack was concerned, but I think Ennis sensed something more. I  feel that his insistence on staying outside the tent, suggests that he was'nt quite ready to trust the situation.. He was drunk and not in control of his faculties. Perhaps he did'nt trust himself at that point, opting for an extra blanket and riding out at first light. What he thought could happen, did happen,  something they'd both thought about. They were falling in love. Their different  reactions  leading up to this were  beautiful , natural,, honest, and sincere, and yes... suggestively seductive. Jack wanted to be Ennis's first lover and v/v  so I think they both sensed something would happen , both wanted it to happen though they took different approaches getting there. I don't doubt their faith and friendship at all, but I feel on this night, the chance  to express his love was there and Jack took it and Ennis  eventually followed suit.  Speculation but,,,just sayin..Thanx.

[tpe]

Oh,I didn't explain myself well enough¡: I also feel that Ennis also wanted to stay with Jack during FNIT.I've never said the contrary,in fact...I only was answering to Tammy's post where she was speaking about how Jack seemed to insist to have Ennis stayed in the camp.But only about Jack's wishes in this sense,what it's obvious,at least for me,that was also shared by Ennis.The only difference was that Jack,always more demonstrative and open,knew better how to get this; letting aside the fact that he surely had some previous experience and more seduction's abilities,consequently.

Sorry for misunderstanding you, MPJ. 

In this regard, at the very least, we can say that Jack took more of an active role, and Ennis a passive one.  This is mirrored in the reunion 4 years later.

This sort of gets me thinking again about the women in their lives.  Cassie and Lureen definitely were definitely "active" in the pursuit of their men.    The case of Lureen is of course interesting, since Jack clearly takes a "passive" approach to the relationship, if not sexually in bed.  As someone mentioned, the sex scene in the truck is interesting precisely because it is Lureen who is on top of Jack -- the "language" of the scene is quite suggestive, IMO.

[tpe]

Thanks, aintfoolin, Tammy, and zankou. 

Ennis to me is a classic passive aggressive, (I hope I'm using it correctly).   It was too late to go to the sheep,  he stays in camp, Jack's offers the tent for the night, he chose to sleep outside, when the fire goes out,  instead of relighting it, he makes noises knowing full well Jack wasn't going let him sleep in the cold.   Jacks makes his move, Ennis takes over.   I may sound cynical, but I'm not, These two were headed for a collision, (using a term that one of our brokies coined in his own tread),  that led to what happened that night.   JMO.

I stand partially corrected.  This is indeed a more precise way to describe Ennis.  In the reunion scene, for instance, although Jack is the one who takes the initiative of re-establishing contact, it is Ennis who sets the tone of the meeting with that opening kiss...

[babytammy7]

I see what your saying, believe me ,and I ,by no means intend to undermine the fact that  Jack was a caring,  nuturing individual. He proved it many times throughout the film.
 It was in the scene where Jack is singing and talking about his mother that Ennis decided he was'nt going back to the sheep. It was still light out. He could've cut short their time and left, he chose to stay. He was with Jack and decided to take a night off and spend it with him. Next time we see him, he's so drunk, he can't stand.  It's dark by the time he's crawling around on his hands and knees. Certainly now, not only is  it too late, He's in no condition to ride a horse anywhere!. Not saying that Jack was not concerned for Ennis's health,  Ennis was shivering cold when the fire died down. but opportunty to be with Ennis at night together did'nt come along often. . I'm sure Ennis was no stranger to sleeping in the cold, but  maybe the word *calculating* has some evil , negative overtone.  I'm not implying that Jack was doing/did anything wrong. Jack wanted him in the tent with him. to be close. Maybe I should say ,he took advantage of the opportunity givin him.
I feel Ennis was between wanting to be lured in and not wanting to be lured by Jack, but he was'nt gonna crawl in on a suggestion that he would freeze to death. Yes, Jack was concerned, but I think Ennis sensed something more. I  feel that his insistence on staying outside the tent, suggests that he was'nt quite ready to trust the situation.. He was drunk and not in control of his faculties. Perhaps he did'nt trust himself at that point, opting for an extra blanket and riding out at first light. What he thought could happen, did happen,  something they'd both thought about. They were falling in love. Their different  reactions  leading up to this were  beautiful , natural,, honest, and sincere, and yes... suggestively seductive. Jack wanted to be Ennis's first lover and v/v  so I think they both sensed something would happen , both wanted it to happen though they took different approaches getting there. I don't doubt their faith and friendship at all, but I feel on this night, the chance  to express his love was there and Jack took it and Ennis  eventually followed suit.  Speculation but,,,just sayin..Thanx.

Beautiful post AF, as always!! 

I see what you're saying here. In fact, I said almost the same, that Jack was really concerned but he did the right movements because the situation was perfect, and of course, he wanted Ennis to sleep with him. I've never doubted about it. It was just I didn't believe that everything was "planned" or something like that.

I agree with you.

[manhattangirl]

In the reunion scene, for instance, although Jack is the one who takes the initiative of re-establishing contact, it is Ennis who sets the tone of the meeting with that opening kiss...

Exactly tpe,  Jack might have tried to guide things,  but Ennis unknowingly charters the course.   And it was this way throughout their relationship.  and it wasn't planned, or thought of.   If Ennis knew what was up with Jack that when he was in camp  that night with Jack, and tried to play "hard to get" or even had caution signs in his mind, than for me that kills it. 

But from the start to end  of this love affair  it was an uncontrolled, unknowing reasons why he was drawn to Jack, and when Jack touches him that night, no plans, no instruction book, but it was something he couldn't help, or even wanted help, it was what it was.

Like tpe pointed in the reunion,  Jack reach out after four years, but with Ennis's "you bet"  it happened all over again.  When Ennis hugged Jack, and but  then slammed him against the wall and passionately kissed him, that trigger was pulled.  But not one time did Ennis ever actively, knowingly, or even plans, all he needs is Jack near him. 

[tpe]

This is I think a fundamental difference between their roles: Jack mediatated on their roles and in the case of Ennis, it was all largely spontaneous and uncontrolled.  There is something elemental In Ennis's approach, whereas Jack's can be so lyrical -- almost like a piece of music.

The difference is seen very beautifully in the Dozy Embrace.  Ennis makes this most tender of gestures to Jack -- almost instinctively and unconsciously.  But it is Jack that mediatates on the scene, and gives t a unique significance.

[Scott6373]

I can easily see this topic spinning off into a "Who was in control of this relationship?" tangent.

[aintfoolin]

 The sex scenes in the film between Alma and Ennis also gave some insight into what Ennis felt his sexual role meant. First he has a habit of flipping people over to his advantage. He'd flip her over just as he flipped Jack in FNIT taking the more dominant position without consent. . Then in the second scene , to her reference to birth control, or lack of it, Ennis  gives the impression that sex with her was only for pro-creation purposes. I may be reaching but well...are'nt their other ways to prevent pregnacy other than abstaining completely? Certainly it speaks to Alma's frustration concerning Ennis's lack of job prospects to support more children but she had to guess what was really going on here. It was Alma's call but Ennis seemed content to be celibate except when it came to Jack. I think he'd found his preference with Jack cuz he shared so much more with him. Therfore, more fulfilling.