Topic: Sexual Roles in SNIT and Other BBM Sex Scenes

[manhattangirl]

The sex scenes in the film between Alma and Ennis also gave some insight into what Ennis felt his sexual role meant. First he has a habit of flipping people over to his advantage. He'd flip her over just as he flipped Jack in FNIT taking the more dominant position without consent. . Then in the second scene , to her reference to birth control, or lack of it, Ennis  gives the impression that sex with her was only for pro-creation purposes. I may be reaching but well...are'nt their other ways to prevent pregnacy other than abstaining completely? Certainly it speaks to Alma's frustration concerning Ennis's lack of job prospects to support more children but she had to guess what was really going on here. It was Alma's call but Ennis seemed content to be celibate except when it came to Jack. I think he'd found his preference with Jack cuz he shared so much more with him. Therfore, more fulfilling.

I agree wholeheartedly with you.   Sex with Alma was a duty, Jack pure passion and Love.   But did Ennis approach both in the exact same way?   With Jack Ennis risk being vulnerable.  he could easily flip Jack over, and then totally succumb to Jack.  That's the difference. Don't you think Ennis may have needed that, he was like a clenched  fist most of his life, hammering at what he calls a life, but with Jack that's all gone for a week, once or twice a year.  Why is it so hard to see that Ennis himself can lay down with the one person that meant any thing to him, and totally be taken over and wanted it.   

[Matt Nasty]

I agree wholeheartedly with you.   Sex with Alma was a duty, Jack pure passion and Love.   But did Ennis approach both in the exact same way?   With Jack Ennis risk being vulnerable.  he could easily flip Jack over, and then totally succumb to Jack.  That's the difference. Don't you think Ennis may have needed that, he was like a clenched  fist most of his life, hammering at what he calls a life, but with Jack that's all gone for a week, once or twice a year.  Why is it so hard to see that Ennis himself can lay down with the one person that meant any thing to him, and totally be taken over and wanted it.   

beautiful words mg i agree

[tpe]

Scott's warning is of course interersting, having read the latest posts by MG and AF.

There is certainly a difference, and I must say that even in the FNIT where we see Jack take on a passive role, you get the sense that he was very much in control of the situation.  I guess this does happen in relationships, where the passive partner drives and shapes the desire in the other.    The question of sexual role and sexual control can be distinguished from each other in certain instances, IMO.

[manhattangirl]

Scott's warning is of course interersting, having read the latest posts by MG and AF.

There is certainly a difference, and I must say that even in the FNIT where we see Jack take on a passive role, you get the sense that he was very much in control of the situation.  I guess this does happen in relationships, where the passive partner drives and shapes the desire in the other.    The question of sexual role and sexual control can be distinguished from each other in certain instances, IMO.

Yes, Jack had control on that first night, when Ennis flips him over and Jack lets him. Then what of the second night when Jack lays Ennis down, and Ennis lets him.  Both had control of the other, and roles played out.  Maybe it was a sense that each had for the other, at that moment one would succumb to the other.

Just a thought.  (may not be a good one).     

Just a thought.

[bearhugman]

Hi, I don't know how relevient this is to this thread, but it seems assummed that there was sex involved that second night, to be honest it didn't cross my mind that they would f*** that night! The second night was, for me, about everything but sex.

[orangetruck]

Hi, I don't know how relevient this is to this thread, but it seems assummed that there was sex involved that second night, to be honest it didn't cross my mind that they would f*** that night! The second night was, for me, about everything but sex.

Notions of being passive/submissive aside, I have to say that I LOVE this post. Thanks manbearpig (South Park flashback, just kidding  ) bearhugman 

[tpe]

I felt that the second night was about everything, including sex, IMO.  You see in the SNIT Jack taking the role of mentor -- as an active agent, no matter what "position" he ended up in.

MG's comment about FNIT can very much be extrapolated to the SNIT, IMO.  Here we distinguish between "apparent" and "intrinsic" roles, if you get what I mean...

[myprivatejack]

I felt that the second night was about everything, including sex, IMO.  You see in the SNIT Jack taking the role of mentor -- as an active agent, no matter what "position" he ended up in.

MG's comment about FNIT can very much be extrapolated to the SNIT, IMO.  Here we distinguish between "apparent" and "intrinsic" roles, if you get what I mean...

SNIT was about everything,including sex,yes;but the difference lies in making love,not just having sex.And IMO,in both nights,Jack is in control of the situation,as a "teacher"-let's say so...-;even in FNIT,when it seems as if Ennis was playing a more dominant role,he really is following the path that Jack has marked previously.This has taken the initiative in something that after Ennis will end in an active,but secondary role.

[orangetruck]

I feel that had there been a banana hanging from a tree just in front of the tent that night, come morning that banana would be missing 
Just kidding, I think they made love including sex. Take care. 

[tpe]

SNIT was about everything,including sex,yes;but the difference lies in making love,not just having sex.And IMO,in both nights,Jack is in control of the situation,as a "teacher"-let's say so...-;even in FNIT,when it seems as if Ennis was playing a more dominant role,he really is following the path that Jack has marked previously.This has taken the initiative in something that after Ennis will end in an active,but secondary role.

I agree: "making love" is of course the meaningful manifestation of the sexual act, as opposed to a manifestation of raw animal desire. 

I also agree that Jack was in "passive" control during the FNIT, in contrast to Ennis's more visceral reaction.  Good distinction you draw here, MPJ.

[tpe]

Just kidding, I think they made love including sex. Take care. 

Certainly, it included all the bells and whistles, in a meaningful way...

[manhattangirl]

Reading MPJ, and tpe  made me think of  final confrontation, and Ennis hesitation in telling Jack his plans to change the date of their next meeting.  His caution look, biting his nails.  He had control for a short time, but than Jack took away or took it back.  He let it be known that he could and did go to someone else, which made Ennis loose that very control he thought he had.  Then when Jack wished he could quit Ennis, this was something Ennis couldn't handle and brokedown.  When tpe wrote:

I felt that the second night was about everything, including sex, IMO.  You see in the SNIT Jack taking the role of mentor -- as an active agent, no matter what "position" he ended up in.

MG's comment about FNIT can very much be extrapolated to the SNIT, IMO.  Here we distinguish between "apparent" and "intrinsic" roles, if you get what I mean...

I kind of understand what MPJ and tpe were talking about.  The illusion of Ennis's control, and the reality of Jack's control. 

Am I close?

[tpe]

Reading MPJ, and tpe  made me think of  final confrontation, and Ennis hesitation in telling Jack his plans to change the date of their next meeting.  His caution look, biting his nails.  He had control for a short time, but than Jack took away or took it back.  He let it be known that he could and did go to someone else, which made Ennis loose that very control he thought he had.  Then when Jack wished he could quit Ennis, this was something Ennis couldn't handle and brokedown.  When tpe wrote:
 
I kind of understand what MPJ and tpe were talking about.  The illusion of Ennis's control, and the reality of Jack's control. 

Am I close?

You are quite close, MG.  You said it very well and very clearly -- I am apt to be quite cryptic at times, I know.  But ift would seem that after a while, Jack did seem to have the upper hand in this regard.   But it probably brought Jack very little happiness or relief.  His needs were simple and singular: he wanted Ennis badly, no matter what the sexual roles were.

 

[aintfoolin]

Indeed, it was Jack who took the inititive in most cases. I don't feel he conciously realized just how much control he did have over Ennis. Ennis was for the most part reactionary. Yes, he actively particiated, but it was Jack who initiated FNIT, the reunion, and also sought Ennis out in the divorce scene etc... Had he not initiated FNIT, I wonder how long it would have taken Ennis to *get it*? Would SNIT ever happened? Ennis was reacting to what Jack had initially shown him. Though Ennis knew of Earl and Rich, it was Jack who brought the reality home to him. That two men really can have sexual feelings for each other and not only that, but that two men can fall in love, and express that love thru love-making. He presented love unconditionally to Ennis and Ennis absorbed it like a thirsty sponge.

I feel Jack helped Ennis realize his *true* calling in these trips . Ennis was focused on one thing when the times came. Throwing clothes in a bag with a excitment not often seen in his everyday life with Alma. This speaks of the control Jack had over Ennis, not only sexually, but emotionally. mentally, and every other way possible. Ennis needed Jack to control his life so he could react the way he needed to. It was essential that Jack showed up, if not, Ennis would be lost. What he got from Jack was what he needed to feel like a complete person, no matter what role he played sexually. The thought of loosing Jack brought on gut-wrenching agony and tears for Ennis. Maybe he could'nt show it to Jack in Signal, post-Brokeback, but he sure did in the confrontation scene. It's clear, who  really had control .  Ennis loved Jack, and twice broke down at the mere thought of loosing him . A true test of a life without Jack? Ennis could never pass it. MO.

[babytammy7]

Beautiful AF!! I quote the whole thing. But I think Ennis had some power in their relationship too, you know, the short leash....They did or didn't what Ennis said all along. I mean, their relationship was based on Ennis rules: Meeting once in while, middle of nowhere, no way living together, I can't make it in August...Jack was tied.

I think they both had some control in different levels.

[aintfoolin]

Certainly Ennis had some control in the relationship as you say, timing the meetings, where, and when etc...but he  was walking that fine line between what he needed in his life and what Jack COULD withold if he so desired.  He was obviously living on the faith of Jack's love for him especially after the scene by the steam where Ennis admits "there's no reins on this one". Jack accepted the conditions at first, but grew increasingly tired of the pretense, but for Ennis, without Jack he could'nt be who he needed to be. could'nt be who he really was ,which had nothing to do with roles or rules in those moments in his life..

If Jack was to become so frustrated and not show up, where would that leave Ennis? It would'nt matter to Ennis who laid down the law. he would have been stripped of all control and power. He'd only know one thing, Jack was missing from his life because of whatever control he weilded. He was the one rejecting and hiding. Jack obviously was  always more accepting of his sexuality. From all appearences together, to Jack ,Ennis should be able to show his love the same way naturally, but Ennis had a few problems with his orientations. He'd be forced to make a choice. Jack's way or no way. What would  he choose to do? If Jack was to  cut the short leash and  take full advantage of the control ( really, the sheer power of unconditional love) he had over Ennis, to be with him  the way he wanted  him to be, or without him period, he would be putting Ennis's love for him to the test. Jack had his own fears too.

Could Jack or Ennis ever love this way again?,  find their roles with someone else, knowing one or the other was still out there somewhere? Could either quit completly? From what I see in the film , no. It took death to keep these two apart, and even then their love was reborn thru the shirts.  Jack again, preserving their love.

What ever understanding or mis-understandings they had. about each other , in the end , the  depth of their love  remained untouched . Just some ramblings...

[orangetruck]

Certainly Ennis had some control in the relationship as you say, timing the meetings, where, and when etc...but he  was walking that fine line between what he needed in his life and what Jack COULD withold if he so desired.  He was obviously living on the faith of Jack's love for him especially after the scene by the steam where Ennis admits "there's no reins on this one". Jack accepted the conditions at first, but grew increasingly tired of the pretense, but for Ennis, without Jack he could'nt be who he needed to be. could'nt be who he really was ,which had nothing to do with roles or rules in those moments in his life..

If Jack was to become so frustrated and not show up, where would that leave Ennis? It would'nt matter to Ennis who laid down the law. he would have been stripped of all control and power. He'd only know one thing, Jack was missing from his life because of whatever control he weilded. He was the one rejecting and hiding. Jack obviously was  always more accepting of his sexuality. From all appearences together, to Jack ,Ennis should be able to show his love the same way naturally, but Ennis had a few problems with his orientations. He'd be forced to make a choice. Jack's way or no way. What would  he choose to do? If Jack was to  cut the short leash and  take full advantage of the control ( really, the sheer power of unconditional love) he had over Ennis, to be with him  the way he wanted  him to be, or without him period, he would be putting Ennis's love for him to the test. Jack had his own fears too.

Could Jack or Ennis ever love this way again?,  find their roles with someone else, knowing one or the other was still out there somewhere? Could either quit completly? From what I see in the film , no. It took death to keep these two apart, and even then their love was reborn thru the shirts.  Jack again, preserving their love.

What ever understanding or mis-understandings they had. about each other , in the end , the  depth of their love  remained untouched . Just some ramblings...

I quote everything but the last 3 words which in my mind are completely wrong.

Your post was the silhoutte of this story's heart, and it's still pumping in me as I type.

Needless to say, I agree with this. Thanks for putting it out like that, very very nice! 

[tpe]

I do agree that for the most part, Ennis was largely passive or "reactionary" as AF has said.  His control over Jack was pretty much a passive control -- more about what he would not do or do in reaction to a proposal or opening introduced by Jack.  It is interesting that it mirrors certain strategies played out by weaker forces against a stronger force: yield or not yield if only to draw the other camp deeper in...

[aintfoolin]

Exactly tpe and OT, he was fragile in his control. could break at any givin moment where Jack was concerned. Only on the surface did he appear to have control over Jack in the relationship . He knew Jack was holding back due to his own fear and one might say Ennis selfishly played on that, but in reality the power really to make or break him imo lie with Jack.

 He just was'nt conciously aware of it. Ennis loved him, he was Ennis's world. Jack had Ennis that way as Ennis had to admit when he said " it's cause a you, I'm like this". Whatever he had done it was because of his need for Jack.  He may have been "nuthin or nowhere" , but he still had Jack. Jack had only unconditional love for him, but Ennis tried to control it, shape it, mold it, to some specification so he was able to deal with it in his conflicted mind instead of just letting it be.  Why mess with perfection? Fear.

Jack saw it as a natural thing that was evolving. Nature taking it's course. Ennis was doing everything he could to prove the love wrong, yet he was doing everything with Jack to prove it right. He showed for the trips, had sexual relations with Jack on those trips, made deals with current bosses , all so he could be there for Jack. sending Jack *mixed signals* . Did'nt make sense, so he assumes Ennis just "did'nt want it", or was playing a serious game with his emotions.  Maybe so, but imo Ennis may not have wanted it but he NEEDED it more than words could say.
 His actions did'nt jive with his words or his conflict. No wonder Jack got angry.

 Deep down inside though eventually I feel Jack did know what the problem was, the source of his frustration was knowing Ennis loved him as much as he loved Ennis, but could'nt get Ennis to the point where he could love him without fear or conditions. There was only so much he could do, this part Ennis had to fix himself. Could'nt force Ennis to feel something he could'nt feel, but it was was a fear Jack had that if  he abandoned Ennis to work it out on his own, he'd loose him forever.

 Had jack gotten over his own fear, back off and let Ennis come to him  in complete surrender, things may have turned out differently. Imo Ennis was'nt going anywhere , anyplace that did'nt involve Jack but Jack , though in his frustration thinking about quitting Ennis, he felt he  could'nt afford to take that chance. Maybe I'm wrong but. things were as they were,... He needed him just that much. MO.Thanx

[babytammy7]

Love your two posts AF. Totally agree. You really understood our boys.... 

[orangetruck]

...

 Deep down inside though eventually I feel Jack did know what the problem was, the source of his frustration was knowing Ennis loved him as much as he loved Ennis, but could'nt get Ennis to the point where he could love him without fear or conditions. There was only so much he could do, this part Ennis had to fix himself. Could'nt force Ennis to feel something he could'nt feel, but it was was a fear Jack had that if  he abandoned Ennis to work it out on his own, he'd loose him forever.

 Had jack gotten over his own fear, back off and let Ennis come to him  in complete surrender, things may have turned out differently. Imo Ennis was'nt going anywhere , anyplace that did'nt involve Jack but Jack , though in his frustration thinking about quitting Ennis, he felt he  could'nt afford to take that chance. Maybe I'm wrong but. things were as they were,... He needed him just that much. MO.Thanx

I am totally with you here. This reminds me of course of the last campfire scene when they're older. How I see it, everything Jack was saying or getting at there was the result of knowing this equation of love and needing it stimulated. Been there, done that personally. My chest was on fire during this scene and my tears were hot. It was so damn familiar.

Oh yes, he did
And I agree about Ennis in this regard. He needed Jack just this much, but with a heart nailed back in 2x4's it would take someone like Jack to burn through to him. Until then, Ennis is close to content with showing everyone an abandoned house. In his heart was the mirror to Jack's, but unfortunately Earl set a magnet upstairs, and while finding love has obviously affected Ennis, it had become more an immediate cerebral manifestation.. at least as far as the slavery to the outside world goes.

2 prisoners of love, one brashly pinned down by the past and the other needing out. The question is whether, when/if the other (Ennis) breaks out, the free one will make it out there waiting. I can understand the fear in both men, and your posts have furthered the insight to this.

 

[tpe]

Thanks AF, Tammy, and OT.

I do agree that Jack probably understood how much Ennis loved him, in his own tortured way.  Jack's dilemma was certainly maintaining confidence and trust that this love could be actively used to make Ennis see things in a different way.  Although seemingly active in many ways, it was in this crucial point that Jack played it too passively.  We are thus faced by passive resistance and equally passive determination.   It is in this way that I understand them to be prisoners of that love: a confusion/mismatch in their roles that brought them to a stalemate.

[aintfoolin]

Thanks AF, Tammy, and OT.

I do agree that Jack probably understood how much Ennis loved him, in his own tortured way.  Jack's dilemma was certainly maintaining confidence and trust that this love could be actively used to make Ennis see things in a different way.  Although seemingly active in many ways, it was in this crucial point that Jack played it too passively.  We are thus faced by passive resistance and equally passive determination.   It is in this way that I understand them to be prisoners of that love: a confusion/mismatch in their roles that brought them to a stalemate.

 Excellent post tpe , you are so correct! I feel he was so caught up in his love for Ennis that he could'nt see the forest for the trees. The big picture that required a more determined , focused attempt at getting Ennis to let go. A firmer hand. Again imo he really had the upper hand over Ennis. Just did'nt realized how to play that hand without scaring Ennis away. Ennis may have had his own *low startle point*, but like a skittish horse, Jack needed to use a firmer hand . Ennis was more than half way there. If anyone could have closed this deal , it was Jack. He held the key obviously. 2 cents more.

[tpe]

Thanks AF.  I really think your calling to mind Proulx's symbolism behind the Jack Twist name is so apt in this discussion of roles.  In many ways, Jack was really the "rider" here -- the rider in the relationship.    In many ways, he certainly was in control, but he allowed passivity to get the better of him and lose this advantage. 

Did he last the 8 seconds, symbolically speaking? 

[FlwrChild]

Well it's so easy for us to think that Jack had any control in this relationship, but believe me, I've been there. Imo, he never thought he had any control. He was just hanging onto Ennis with all his might. He pushed here and there, and backed off when he feared Ennis would get skittish and bolt.

I think tpe's question about him lasting the 8 seconds is perfect, because my answer would be yes. He lasted the full 8 seconds because he rode it as long as he was alive. And just like with a bull, you know that you can never actually control the animal - you just hope that you can hold on and not get thrown.

[myprivatejack]

Fantastic all these last posts¡  I really believe Jack was in control of the relationship in a more physical way-doubtless for me...-; but in an emotional,psychological and/or sentimental side,he took the control that Ennis and his reactions "allowed" him to have.And,on the other hand,for me is also clear that Jack-as Aintfoolin says-held the key of the relationship and his continuity; if it lasted so many years,it's because Jack knew more or less well how to cope with the situation,forcing Ennis to a point and relaxing "the leash" when his lover could feel himself too anguished and overwhelmed.Sometimes to be able to get something more from him,sometimes for not scaring him...In this sense,as in so many others,they were complementaries,although never completely.

[babytammy7]

Well it's so easy for us to think that Jack had any control in this relationship, but believe me, I've been there. Imo, he never thought he had any control. He was just hanging onto Ennis with all his might. He pushed here and there, and backed off when he feared Ennis would get skittish and bolt.
I think tpe's question about him lasting the 8 seconds is perfect, because my answer would be yes. He lasted the full 8 seconds because he rode it as long as he was alive. And just like with a bull, you know that you can never actually control the animal - you just hope that you can hold on and not get thrown.

Beautiful Barb, I love it. 

[manhattangirl]

Fantastic all these last posts¡  I really believe Jack was in control of the relationship in a more physical way-doubtless for me...-; but in an emotional,psychological and/or sentimental side,he took the control that Ennis and his reactions "allowed" him to have.And,on the other hand,for me is also clear that Jack-as Aintfoolin says-held the key of the relationship and his continuity; if it lasted so many years,it's because Jack knew more or less well how to cope with the situation,forcing Ennis to a point and relaxing "the leash" when his lover could feel himself too anguished and overwhelmed.Sometimes to be able to get something more from him,sometimes for not scaring him...In this sense,as in so many others,they were complementaries,although never completely.

I love this line.  Its so true. 

[myprivatejack]

I love this line.  Its so true. 

  MG¡ I really think it's how Jack felt and acted so,so,so many times in order to please Ennis and try to please himself getting closer to his dreams accomplishment.But,tell me...don't you love all the post,huh?     

[tpe]

Well it's so easy for us to think that Jack had any control in this relationship, but believe me, I've been there. Imo, he never thought he had any control. He was just hanging onto Ennis with all his might. He pushed here and there, and backed off when he feared Ennis would get skittish and bolt.

I think tpe's question about him lasting the 8 seconds is perfect, because my answer would be yes. He lasted the full 8 seconds because he rode it as long as he was alive. And just like with a bull, you know that you can never actually control the animal - you just hope that you can hold on and not get thrown.

I agree fully that it probably never crossed his mind that he was ever in control.  He could have been in control, but it never really crossed his mind to be in such a position, IMO.


"For how long?"

"For as long as we can ride it...  There are no reins on this one..."


He really took this to heart.