Topic: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?

[Tony]

Do you, or  anyone else feel that in the confrontation when Jack says " Hell yeah I been to Mexico, is that a f-ckin problem?" that he was perhaps, just maybe, *outing* himself to Ennis right then and there? sayin to Ennis that he likes sex with men, sought out only men? preferred men ?  He'd appreciate it if he could have it with Ennis more if he could?

    This one forced me to put on my thinking cap.  The problem is, Annie has given birth to two heroes who very much have the complexities of real people, and they are alive in that they change, grow, and interact just as we do.  They are alive, and can be difficult.
    Am not going to say enough to warrant going over to another thread, but will say am sticking to my sense that neither were pre-primed for sex on the mountain and yet that happened, as did romantic love.  In the aftermath, Ennis stuck to his definition of himself and his comfort zone and the love for Jack trumped everything.  But not so, with Jack.  He was, I think, "de-sensitized" to same gender sex.
   In the early politics of the emerging gay issue, the biggest allegation of homophobes was that gays were out to "convert" others to being gay.  Gays responded defensively by the "born gay" theory.  My best understanding is that you cannot be changed from straight to gay, but you can, particularly if you are a free spirited love-puppy like Jack, become de-sensitized to same gender sex (no allergic response) and, yes, you can end up liking it greatly.  I think Jack ended up identifying this sexuality as very fulfilling, but I do not believe he would never again be responsive to a woman.
   But Aintfoolin, your question greatly expands the possible meaning of their last meeting, and goes past anything I had ever considered before.  Was Jack "outing" himself that day?  I think he was, under pressure from the jibes from Ennis, which he had probably never heard from Ennis before.  I can't remember who said recently, Jack would fight if you pushed him, but "boys like you" pushed him.  But if he was outing himself to Ennis, isn't it also possible, for the first time, he was admitting all this FULLY AND FORMALLY....to himself?  That he'd let himself deflect the issue, before then?
  If so, there is much more we could then understand about A) his rush to Randall and B) the failure of that to work (it failed before his death).  Damn, what a nightmare for Jack - finally outing himself and then finding out, maybe, after all, it could only work with Ennis.  Imagine the confusion of outing yourself and then finding out, it really only works with one guy.
  And then if Ennis understood Jack's words, which had confirmed his worst suspicions and fears, the scene in the diner has the tragedy of Ennis coming to terms with love, but also the crazy mixed-up comic humanity of Ennis' dilemma:  My boyfriend just said....he was gay.

[Tony]

How they took the leap to romantic love is still a mystery to me, although many threads have explored it.

   Yeah, this one is still tough.  Friendship love is easily understood. And with insight into male sexuality, so too was the sex.  But romantic love was the knock-down punch.  The only thing I can think to say is that they seemed to have been meant for each other, pre-designed.
  But more realistically, in a cold world, if you do stumble across someone who fits your every need, and soothes your every hurt, then there was no place left to go.  "There ain't no reins on this one..." traces back long before Ennis said those words.  You find someone for yourself, there is no limit except fear, and that was another thread.

[FlwrChild]

   
   Aintfoolin, your question greatly expands the possible meaning of their last meeting, and goes past anything I had ever considered before.  Was Jack "outing" himself that day?  I think he was, under pressure from the jibes from Ennis, which he had probably never heard from Ennis before.  I can't remember who said recently, Jack would fight if you pushed him, but "boys like you" pushed him.  But if he was outing himself to Ennis, isn't it also possible, for the first time, he was admitting all this FULLY AND FORMALLY....to himself?  That he'd let himself deflect the issue, before then?
  If so, there is much more we could then understand about A) his rush to Randall and B) the failure of that to work (it failed before his death).  Damn, what a nightmare for Jack - finally outing himself and then finding out, maybe, after all, it could only work with Ennis.  Imagine the confusion of outing yourself and then finding out, it really only works with one guy.
  And then if Ennis understood Jack's words, which had confirmed his worst suspicions and fears, the scene in the diner has the tragedy of Ennis coming to terms with love, but also the crazy mixed-up comic humanity of Ennis' dilemma:  My boyfriend just said....he was gay.

Well, to me Jack may well have been outing himself to Ennis, but not to himself. I think that he may have been hiding that knowledge from Ennis out of necessity, but had already known it in his own heart. I am with you about the sense of knowing that, whatever your orientation, you are only meant for one person. I just don't think that it was confusion Jack felt, as much as a pained resignation.

(major disclaimer here that I am not saying that I'm right and Tony's wrong, only that these are my impressions. I still like the way those impressions converge, even when we start from opposite corners. )



And I absolutely love the way you put this:

"the scene in the diner has the tragedy of Ennis coming to terms with love, but also the crazy mixed-up comic humanity of Ennis' dilemma:  My boyfriend just said....he was gay."


I couldn't possibly have said it better myself and it's so in line with what Heath said. Just perfect. (

[manhattangirl]

It was part of all the things that unsayable, but understood.  Jack had no doubt about who he was and accepted it.  What Jack's struggle was he was not a loner, he needed human contact, a connection to someone else, but never denying he was "boys like you".   

I think of the scene when he was dancing with Lureen for the first time.  How many of you think it was Lureen, a woman, that  he succumb to or the just holding someone who seem to respond to him.  This was "human contact",  and Jack was a man who needed just that.   But this closeness, this contact didn't last long did it.   Because still he needed the touch the feel of a man, this was who he was, and Ennis was the man he wanted.  He was in love with Ennis, and even Randall couldn't fill the bill.  Jack indeed had his own struggles didn't he, accepting who he was, yet not able to live the life he wanted.

That is what he was telling Ennis and his "boys like you",  "I not you",  He knew it, and he knew Ennis knew it, and honestly Ennis knew it all along, a very knowledgeable couple, but not able to put it into words. IMO.

 

[tpe]

Well, to me Jack may well have been outing himself to Ennis, but not to himself. I think that he may have been hiding that knowledge from Ennis out of necessity, but had already known it in his own heart. I am with you about the sense of knowing that, whatever your orientation, you are only meant for one person. I just don't think that it was confusion Jack felt, as much as a pained resignation.

(major disclaimer here that I am not saying that I'm right and Tony's wrong, only that these are my impressions. I still like the way those impressions converge, even when we start from opposite corners. )

***

It was part of all the things that unsayable, but understood.  Jack had no doubt about who he was and accepted it.  What Jack's struggle was he was not a loner, he needed human contact, a connection to someone else, but never denying he was "boys like you".   

***

Well, this is my feeling also -- that he supressed a lot of his feelings out of respect/consideration for Ennis.  In terms of self-knowledge and need for human contact, I think that Jack did go steps further than Ennis -- and this applies especially to the interior knowledge of love.

 

[aintfoolin]

Well, to me Jack may well have been outing himself to Ennis, but not to himself. I think that he may have been hiding that knowledge from Ennis out of necessity, but had already known it in his own heart. I am with you about the sense of knowing that, whatever your orientation, you are only meant for one person. I just don't think that it was confusion Jack felt, as much as a pained resignation.

(major disclaimer here that I am not saying that I'm right and Tony's wrong, only that these are my impressions. I still like the way those impressions converge, even when we start from opposite corners. )



And I absolutely love the way you put this:

"the scene in the diner has the tragedy of Ennis coming to terms with love, but also the crazy mixed-up comic humanity of Ennis' dilemma:  My boyfriend just said....he was gay."


I couldn't possibly have said it better myself and it's so in line with what Heath said. Just perfect. (

 This says what I was trying to say FlowerChild. Thanks. He was'nt nineteen anymore and at some point over the years, I feel Jack came to a relization of what his feelings for Ennis meant about himself. Perhaps he had identified his attraction to men. When he asks Ennis if there is a problem with it , he was indeed *outing himself , out loud to Ennis in so many words. At the same time calling Ennis out on his sexual inclinations for 20 yrs. Jack was being grown up about at almost 40 yrs. old. Forgetting the pretense and confusion , he was questioning the percieved sarcasm.   , all these yrs loving Jack had to mean something about Ennis himself. Though it was only one man Ennis was attracted to and loved, Jack was a man ,in every sense of the word. And Ennis was having sex with him.

[FlwrChild]

This says what I was trying to say FlowerChild. Thanks. He was'nt nineteen anymore and at some point over the years, I feel Jack came to a relization of what his feelings for Ennis meant about himself. Perhaps he had identified his attraction to men. When he asks Ennis if there is a problem with it , he was indeed *outing himself , out loud to Ennis in so many words. At the same time calling Ennis out on his sexual inclinations for 20 yrs. Jack was being grown up about at almost 40 yrs. old. Forgetting the pretense and confusion , he was questioning the percieved sarcasm.   , all these yrs loving Jack had to mean something about Ennis himself. Though it was only one man Ennis was attracted to and loved, Jack was a man ,in every sense of the word. And Ennis was having sex with him.

Yes, I think so too.

[Tony]

at some point over the years, I feel Jack came to a relization of what his feelings for Ennis meant about himself. Perhaps he had identified his attraction to men. When he asks Ennis if there is a problem with it , he was indeed *outing himself , out loud to Ennis in so many words.

   Aintfoolin, I really do think you've upped the ante on the meaning of their last meeting, by using the word "outing".  I have tried to bring to the forum things that I have seen, that sometimes women and gay men are uncomfortable with, and that is, regardless of the endless discussions of labels, there are large numbers of guys who just have a dum dum attitude that their limited same gender sexuality means nothing.  These guys prefer women, are not "in the closet", yet for whatever reason, have hooked up with one or several other guys in their life.  Gays wanna go: denial, dudes---you're GAY.  Women, even gay-friendly women, are nervous at the thought their "straight" male reservoir might not be what they think it is.  I have seen this phenomenon repeatedly.
   But when we come to Ennis, it does not fully apply.  He was always struggling with the implications of his doings with Jack, and it WAS a dilemma, as he never developed any interest in males past Jack.  It sort of applies to Jack, in a limited way. Jack responded to anyone who showed an interest in him and liked him. IMO, it is very wrong to assume that he had no sexual interest in LaShawn.  Or that he was lying to Ennis when he said he was having an affair with her.  Looking back, he was bug-eyed when Randall came on to him, and was goofy enough....to be messing with BOTH of them, but finally settling on Randall.
  So, IMO, yes, Jack knew of and accepted his attraction to men, but, had not signed on the dotted line, like the guys I've referred to above.  It's kind of like someone voting Democratic over and over and then finally going- WAIT a minute---I AM a Democrat!  People do this, Aintfoolin - the behavior without the signing on the dotted line.
  But you raised the ante.  So did Ennis, by voicing his worst suspicions- that Jack was gay (which, by the way, would or could lessen, to Ennis, the meaning of their meetings- it was about sex, more than companionship and love).  Always, before that day, Jack had reassured Ennis, he had normal relations with women. Enraged, Jack DID "out" himself.  And that broke Ennis heart as that made the affair more sexual than emotional, as far as Ennis was concerned.
He was just another source of sexual fulfillment for one of those "boys like you".
  But Jack, too, by taking the final step and FORMALIZING his self-definition, which wasn't anything he'd bothered with before, went....where?  To Randall. We know that from his father's story.  And it didn't work.  We know that, too.  Even defining himself, led nowhere.  We can only guess if Jack, too, had his own lonely scene in a diner, like Ennis, somewhere between Randall not working out, and his death.
  Yes, that confrontation scene erupted after 20 years, and was as much about defining their sexuality as it was about the infrequency of their meetings.
Under scathing fire from Ennis, Jack outed himself fully and formally.  And, IMO, wrongfully.  These guys needed to drop sexual definitions and out themselves on their extreme emotional needs for each other.  Friendship, sex, and love.  They outed the sex in that confrontation, and, again, IMO, wrongfully, as they went by the world's rules.  They needed to out the deepness of the love.  Here is one instance where the meaning of the sex...got in the way.

[Tony]

   The above is too long.  But am still wallowing in the confrontation scene.  It was a dividing line, even if Jack had lived.  They began their affair, after FNIT with Ennis saying: "You know I ain't queer.", to which Jack responds: "Me neither."  IMO, they both meant it.  But, although Ennis never developed any generic interest in other males, Jack did.
   In that last meeting-up, then, Ennis challenged, and Jack outed himself.  Maybe not as gay, but as what we'd consider bisexual.  This altered their safe cover stories unto themselves, and had to be, then, the end of the relationship as they had known it.
   In the aftermath, we see Ennis suffering, in the diner, but we also see him ready for the next meeting.  Which leads me back to that strong belief-
shake Ennis up, and he would change.  After Jack outed himself, then, Ennis may well have been prepared to make some kind of offer, if that was what it would take, to keep Jack. IMO, the next meeting-up, would have been the start of something new.

[FlwrChild]

Tony, I have to say that even though I don't see this the same way you do, and have my own opinions on all of that, I just love the way you express yourself. You really paint a good picture of your interpretation. It's almost visual for me to read your posts.

Thank you.


And sometimes long is necessary to get the complete picture on the canvas.

[manhattangirl]

   The above is too long.  But am still wallowing in the confrontation scene.  It was a dividing line, even if Jack had lived.  They began their affair, after FNIT with Ennis saying: "You know I ain't queer.", to which Jack responds: "Me neither."  IMO, they both meant it.  But, although Ennis never developed any generic interest in other males, Jack did.
   In that last meeting-up, then, Ennis challenged, and Jack outed himself.  Maybe not as gay, but as what we'd consider bisexual.  This altered their safe cover stories unto themselves, and had to be, then, the end of the relationship as they had known it.
   In the aftermath, we see Ennis suffering, in the diner, but we also see him ready for the next meeting.  Which leads me back to that strong belief-
shake Ennis up, and he would change.  After Jack outed himself, then, Ennis may well have been prepared to make some kind of offer, if that was what it would take, to keep Jack. IMO, the next meeting-up, would have been the start of something new.

That phrase shut the door to any discussion on being queer or not.  "Don't ask, don't tell" kind of thing.  The next night, when Jack went to Ennis, and waited for him on the hillside.  Jack I'm sure didn't know what Ennis real reaction to the night before would be.  Ennis standing there with rifle in hand, Jack waited for his next move, he waited for Ennis to speak.  Jack had a lot of guts, in my opinion, but he did what he alway had from than on, and foolishly followed Ennis lead, and hoped for the best.  The second time Jack made this error, was the reunion by the fire, he again gave way to  Ennis's rules on how to handle this "thing that came over them".  This was Ennis's way of coping, and Jack's way of holding on. 

This "thing"  was between them and blocked any coming to terms with their relationship, their feelings, their ability to verbalize anything between them.   It wasn't Brokeback that hung over them but the "thing".   And the "thing" was them.  Their love, fear, need.   

They were lovers, and knew they were lovers.   If Ennis wanted a companion he would of had a dog.   Ennis wanted his lover, Jack,  in everyway,  means, and sense of the word.   He could stay away from Jack, but couldn't resist him, he could stay quiet, but when he spoke it wasn't what he suppose to say, but what he really felt.   When he made love to Jack, he wanted to feel what he was giving in return, and he did. 

But how can you come to terms with who you are, who you love, and what you need, when you look at it with fear. 

   

[Tony]

But how can you come to terms with who you are, who you love, and what you need, when you look at it with fear. 

   

   Am not sure I'm comfortable any more with our basic reactions to what happened to Ennis and Jack.  For instance, the above quote is pivotal and yet, I think we've all, including me, let the questions become the answers.  There's got to be more going on than just fear of society's disapproval or one's own pre-conceived ideas, for a disaster this bad having had to occur.
 I don't have an alternative answer that fits everything, but it has occurred to me that Ennis lived in a closed world and Jack lived in a larger world, and that played a factor.
  "You know me, Jack, the only travelling I've done is going around a teapot looking for the handle...", or something like that.  And that was true.  Ennis wouldn't go anywhere outside of a small frame of reference he could hold on to.  It was a great leap for him to move to the apartment over the laundromat- he didn't want to do that.  As for travelling for round-ups, or whatever, distance may have existed, but not change in scenery.
  Jack, however, was a free spirit, although he kept roots in Lightning Flat.  While Ennis wouldn't get a job at the power company, making more money, Jack would and did, become....a tractor salesman.  And he would and did...go to Mexico.
  "You been to Mexico...?", then, was a little more of an accusation then just sexual debauchery, it was an accusation of being, unlike Ennis, someone who lived in a larger world.
  IMO, then, an added dimension to the troubles was that Ennis had given up on life itself, long, long before he met Jack Twist.  He could have said what he said at the end of the movie, years before Aguirre's trailer : "When you ain't got nothin', you don't need nothin'...."
  Maybe Ennis was so battered he was afraid of living, and then along comes this preposterous life force that was Jack Twist.  Not challenging him to be gay.
Challenging him to live.  In that sense, there is a slight parallel to the novel "Sophie's Choice", where the grotesque battering of the woman's life before, precluded her embracing life ever again.  I just don't see "Fear of Gay" as the root dilemma.  I still see Fear of Love and, now, Fear of Life.
  Somebody really messed Ennis over. Bad.

p.s.- MG, am not in disagreement with your post.  It just set me to thinking, and disagreeing with my own previous beliefs. It can be messy when you disagree with yourself, but sometimes it works out OK.

[FlwrChild]

Tony, I would not worry about disagreeing with yourself, or anyone else. There are so many themes bouncing around in this story that we could talk for a lifetime and never pin them down.

And remember that our views of the story and the characters can change with our own personal perspectives and moods. Different things catch our attention at different times. And much like a painting, it can also look different when you look at it in different lighting or from a different angle. The painting hasn't changed, just our perspective of it.

I think, at the end of the day, as long as we see that this story was about love as much as anything else, we have at least learned the lesson that took so long for Ennis to understand. And that in itself is a valuable gift.


I like some of the analogies you mentioned in your last post too. I think they're spot on. And another irony, to me, is that the sweet life that Jack was proposing actually could have been exactly within that limited comfort zone of Ennis's. I believe that Jack would have been happy living in a smaller world - just a little cow and calf operation somewhere - as long as he lived there with Ennis. What Ennis didn't see was that simply taking the leap and going through that bigger world could have gotten him out on the other side into that smaller world, but in a much happier way than the small world he chose to live in instead (and having said that, I realize absolutely that he never saw it as a choice). I think this story is full of tragic ironies and circular, self-sustaining hells.

[manhattangirl]

   Am not sure I'm comfortable any more with our basic reactions to what happened to Ennis and Jack.  For instance, the above quote is pivotal and yet, I think we've all, including me, let the questions become the answers.  There's got to be more going on than just fear of society's disapproval or one's own pre-conceived ideas, for a disaster this bad having had to occur.
 I don't have an alternative answer that fits everything, but it has occurred to me that Ennis lived in a closed world and Jack lived in a larger world, and that played a factor.
  "You know me, Jack, the only travelling I've done is going around a teapot looking for the handle...", or something like that.  And that was true.  Ennis wouldn't go anywhere outside of a small frame of reference he could hold on to.  It was a great leap for him to move to the apartment over the laundromat- he didn't want to do that.  As for travelling for round-ups, or whatever, distance may have existed, but not change in scenery.
  Jack, however, was a free spirit, although he kept roots in Lightning Flat.  While Ennis wouldn't get a job at the power company, making more money, Jack would and did, become....a tractor salesman.  And he would and did...go to Mexico.
  "You been to Mexico...?", then, was a little more of an accusation then just sexual debauchery, it was an accusation of being, unlike Ennis, someone who lived in a larger world.
  IMO, then, an added dimension to the troubles was that Ennis had given up on life itself, long, long before he met Jack Twist.  He could have said what he said at the end of the movie, years before Aguirre's trailer : "When you ain't got nothin', you don't need nothin'...."
  Maybe Ennis was so battered he was afraid of living, and then along comes this preposterous life force that was Jack Twist.  Not challenging him to be gay.
Challenging him to live.  In that sense, there is a slight parallel to the novel "Sophie's Choice", where the grotesque battering of the woman's life before, precluded her embracing life ever again.  I just don't see "Fear of Gay" as the root dilemma.  I still see Fear of Love and, now, Fear of Life.
  Somebody really messed Ennis over. Bad.

p.s.- MG, am not in disagreement with your post.  It just set me to thinking, and disagreeing with my own previous beliefs. It can be messy when you disagree with yourself, but sometimes it works out OK.

 But Tony you're on to something, what was it between Ennis and Jack,  was it a "fear of queer", or something much larger?    Both men lived their lives differently, though they seem similar at first glance.  It was tug-o-war between them, living in a closet or coming out.  I have a feeling you want to get away from that, see something else, something larger, something.

When you said someone messed Ennis up bad, let's look at that pivitol point, when his father took him to Earl's body.  I have feeling Ennis at that point shut down emotionally.   And knew he had to live his life a certain way, but not really understanding what way.  So followed carefully his brother and his sister.   He really never had an independant thought, spirit, hopes, dreams the same Jack had, only the I'll stick with beans attituede.  He stuck with what he knew.  Jack was of a larger world, and was trying to bring Ennis into it, out of fear Ennis resisted.

I ain't smart enough,  so Tony where do we go from here?  


 

[aintfoolin]

   Aintfoolin, I really do think you've upped the ante on the meaning of their last meeting, by using the word "outing".  I have tried to bring to the forum things that I have seen, that sometimes women and gay men are uncomfortable with, and that is, regardless of the endless discussions of labels, there are large numbers of guys who just have a dum dum attitude that their limited same gender sexuality means nothing.  These guys prefer women, are not "in the closet", yet for whatever reason, have hooked up with one or several other guys in their life.  Gays wanna go: denial, dudes---you're GAY.  Women, even gay-friendly women, are nervous at the thought their "straight" male reservoir might not be what they think it is.  I have seen this phenomenon repeatedly.
   But when we come to Ennis, it does not fully apply.  He was always struggling with the implications of his doings with Jack, and it WAS a dilemma, as he never developed any interest in males past Jack.  It sort of applies to Jack, in a limited way. Jack responded to anyone who showed an interest in him and liked him. IMO, it is very wrong to assume that he had no sexual interest in LaShawn.  Or that he was lying to Ennis when he said he was having an affair with her.  Looking back, he was bug-eyed when Randall came on to him, and was goofy enough....to be messing with BOTH of them, but finally settling on Randall.
  So, IMO, yes, Jack knew of and accepted his attraction to men, but, had not signed on the dotted line, like the guys I've referred to above.  It's kind of like someone voting Democratic over and over and then finally going- WAIT a minute---I AM a Democrat!  People do this, Aintfoolin - the behavior without the signing on the dotted line.
  But you raised the ante.  So did Ennis, by voicing his worst suspicions- that Jack was gay (which, by the way, would or could lessen, to Ennis, the meaning of their meetings- it was about sex, more than companionship and love).  Always, before that day, Jack had reassured Ennis, he had normal relations with women. Enraged, Jack DID "out" himself.  And that broke Ennis heart as that made the affair more sexual than emotional, as far as Ennis was concerned.
He was just another source of sexual fulfillment for one of those "boys like you".
  But Jack, too, by taking the final step and FORMALIZING his self-definition, which wasn't anything he'd bothered with before, went....where?  To Randall. We know that from his father's story.  And it didn't work.  We know that, too.  Even defining himself, led nowhere.  We can only guess if Jack, too, had his own lonely scene in a diner, like Ennis, somewhere between Randall not working out, and his death.
  Yes, that confrontation scene erupted after 20 years, and was as much about defining their sexuality as it was about the infrequency of their meetings.
Under scathing fire from Ennis, Jack outed himself fully and formally.  And, IMO, wrongfully.  These guys needed to drop sexual definitions and out themselves on their extreme emotional needs for each other.  Friendship, sex, and love.  They outed the sex in that confrontation, and, again, IMO, wrongfully, as they went by the world's rules.  They needed to out the deepness of the love.  Here is one instance where the meaning of the sex...got in the way.

Great post , It has been alluded to in another thread about men who label themselves "straight", and have daliances or experiment with the same sex. From  curious experimental acts of sex to feitishes and role playing,  every sex act  known to man ( and some not known).that  can be defined/described  is out there, some one's  out there doing it, there's some one out there who fits every  branch of the huge tree of human sexuality. Yes, there are segments of society where people define themselves one way and behave the opposite. I might  be fully inclined to agree with you if the relationship between Jack and Ennis had'nt lasted for SO long.
 20 yrs. is a big chunk of  one's life.  If they had an experimental phase, it was over.There has to be something big and strong holding it together. In the beginning, when they were 19, yes there was confusion and naiveity, but by 40 years old, one  knows a little about themselves, enlightened by life's experiences.  Sexual preferences being one thing.  I feel Jack had thought about it and struggled with who he was . When Ennis pushed the point about Mexico , I feel he found , through anger, the courage and proud acceptance of who he was and his preference for men. " hell yeah, I been to Mexico" he says, daring Ennis to say something about it. Now this just me , but I'm sure there were *ladies of the night * also in Mexico, but that is not the alley/road  he sought out. He knew where to go to get what he needed.
Jack spoke of needing something he "hardly ever gets". He could find sex with any woman he wanted, he needed a man's touch. Preferrably Ennis.

 Sex is important , but unsustainable. It alone, cannot hold a relationship together, there has to be other factors involved.  Imo Jack was the opposite of those men you decribe, he could respond and perform sexually with women, but preferred men. "Preferred" meaning not absolute. When he was alone and the choice was up to him , he got it where he could get it, and  he preferred it  with males. Jimbo, the clown( he initiated that),, male hustlers ( required some thought , a long drive, with the option to turn rethink,he did'nt, something tells me he'd been there before) and apparently said yes to Randall's proposition. ( could've turned it down, he did'nt)  and of course Ennis, the one he really  loved and wanted most of all.
 Him decribing his sex life as "normal "and all" to Ennis may only mean what had become "normal "for him and Lureen.  This could mean anything from no sex, to " do it over the phone "sex, either way, much was left to be desired to hear Jack tell it. I'm sure the ship of excitement about sex  with these two, sailed long ago in this marriage.  A "mating call" is just that ,a mating call ...aka.."a booty call ", some call it a "one night stand" if you will.  She pursued  Jack, Jack did'nt pursue her. Who could blame her? Jack was one  gorgeous hunka man.., but that does not a marriage make. Her fantasy dream came true for a while.. his did'nt.

Jack was still in love with Ennis, and Lureen had fallen deeply for her adding machine, but I'm sure they managed every once in a while over the yrs. when desperation set in and Jack happened to be at home and sober. To me , he could never fully commit to Lureen. Like Ennis, his heart just was'nt in it from the beginning.

  Because Jack was more calm and accepting of his sexual orientation, I still say as I've said before, that Jack saw the  love  on a continuous basis, from Brokeback Mt, stemmed a steady but sometimes broken road. The true bonds of love were never in doubt with him. Four yrs  off the tracks?  yes. altered his path somewhat,  But that was not his doing or choice, Ennis made that choice for him but he never stopped thinking about Ennis and the unbreakable bond born on the Mt. His road always , always lead back to Ennis.  Not so unlike Ennis, He knew Childress and Lureen and fam was not the road he preferred all along, He knew he did'nt belong there eventually, but now had obligations  to a baby and a wife . Even that was proven to be on shaky ground when L.D. offered to pay him for his freedom. Its was hard to remain steady when Ennis could not understand that companionship, love and sex go hand in hand, not to be seperated and compartmentalized, but is to be celebrated  naturally,  as 3 major , essential ,parts of a loving, lasting, successful relationship.

Sorry Tony, but IMO the only way Jack could have ended up with LaShawan is if Randall and LaShawn were a coupla swingers,  a sexual phenomenon that alot of couples experimented with in those times. Can you say ...triple header?    Call me crazy, I have been working 12 hour shifts latley , but I doubt she'd let Randall go with Jack  to LF to stay that easy, she'd wanna come too! ( smelling salts please)... oh no , now I'm ...LaShawning? I'll shut up now  Thanx.  

 

[Tony]

I think this story is full of tragic ironies and circular, self-sustaining hells.

    I sure do agree on this. Very Real World.  Kind of like the regular floods in the Midwest and the regular droughts in the Far West and Mid-Central, and they ain't got no way to have inter-state waterways to siphon off the water to where it's needed?
  The worst of it all is that Jack was the one to defy the self-sustaining hells, to have unique and original solutions, and he was the one who died. He was so certain there were solutions to problems, he'd even combine the solutions.  Ma and Pa Twist were in need of long-term help and so he factored that in on the place for him and Ennis to ranch up.  3 problems solved:  no money needed, parents taken care of, privacy for him and Ennis off a ways at a cabin near the main house.   Jack was a dreamer?  Nah - he was a problem solver and that made the tragedy all the worse.
  I'd bet if he dropped his pride and appealed to Ennis on the grounds of his parents age and need, that would have worked.

[FlwrChild]

I don't know if it would have worked or not (one can only hope ) but I love the way you describe our Jack. He was indeed a problem solver, wasn't he?

[Tony]

When you said someone messed Ennis up bad, let's look at that pivitol point, when his father took him to Earl's body.  I have feeling Ennis at that point shut down emotionally.  
 

  Yeah, you're right.  I regret saying once Ennis was using that as a crutch, or excuse.  His father was showing him the price of defiant love: death.  And gloating over it as would a demon.
   Where do we go to from here?  I guess continuing to explore and celebrate and empathize with the love story.  Del Mar senior could bully that little boy, but that Ennis and his Jack Twist are ours now, and every time we wander through the meanings of their love story, we tell that jerk, Del Mar Senior, he won the battle, crippling the life force of a child, his own child at that, but he lost the war.  Where do we go, MG?  Same place we've been going- wherever our hearts and minds lead us, here and in the RW.  Thanks for reminding me of just how huge the trauma was.

[Tony]

  Sex is important , but unsustainable. It alone, cannot hold a relationship together, there has to be other factors involved.

  Because Jack was more calm and accepting of his sexual orientation, I still say as I've said before, that Jack saw the  love  on a continuous basis, from Brokeback Mt, stemmed a steady but sometimes broken road. The true bonds of love were never in doubt with him.  

 

    All of the above is exactly what I believe, too.  But I still kind of think Ennis was suspicious, at least a little, that he wasn't loved as much as needed for sex.  Which he wanted, too, but with a reassuring formula: on this kinda stuff - you and me only.

   FlowerChild, our posts crossed.  Yeah, it's always there, the what-if's.  I kind of liked that one.

p.s. - Aintfoolin, that post of yours was a dandy and intelligent romp through human sexuality.  But ya had to end it with images of a threesome with LaShawn, didn't ya?  Which also brings up an awful question---would she have been LaShawning during the, er, activities?  The mind boggles.

[aintfoolin]

But Tony you're on to something, what was it between Ennis and Jack,  was it a "fear of queer", or something much larger?    Both men lived their lives differently, though they seem similar at first glance.  It was tug-o-war between them, living in a closet or coming out.  I have a feeling you want to get away from that, see something else, something larger, something.

When you said someone messed Ennis up bad, let's look at that pivitol point, when his father took him to Earl's body.  I have feeling Ennis at that point shut down emotionally.   And knew he had to live his life a certain way, but not really understanding what way.  So followed carefully his brother and his sister.   He really never had an independant thought, spirit, hopes, dreams the same Jack had, only the I'll stick with beans attituede.  He stuck with what he knew.  Jack was of a larger world, and was trying to bring Ennis into it, out of fear Ennis resisted.

I ain't smart enough,  so Tony where do we go from here?  


 

 I agree with this. Some one really screwed him up . Robbed him of free thought even before he had the chance to form his own opinion. He had heard people talking about Earl and Rich , two old birds ranched up were the butt of jokes in the town. This was no doubt reinforced at home by his father.  Del Mar Sr just could'nt take the chance that this could have an impression on his son in any positive way.  Apparently there was a  sick, ignorant group mentality along the lines of the modern day hate groups  to uphold the purity of the   *straight and narrow* culture in the town.  Then he is  visionably shown the consequences of  two men defying the culture and society that his father ( who was apparently suspected by Ennis as part  of the group)  and others  wanted for their  sons. This example of same sex relationships had to be elimnated, made an example of to make his point clear to Ennis and K.E. that this was totally unacceptable behavior for two  men.

The horrific manner of Earl's death, then the death of both parents of  left Ennis with a reality of death we all wish no child would be subjected to. The impreesion he was left with by the adults close to him about same sex love was one instilled with fear.  I feel it explains the fear of love.  It's was an unfair hand he was dealt in his young life , carried into his relationship with Jack. He brought this baggage  of fear  of what he saw in a drainage ditch  yrs ago with him  to adulthood,  deeply affecting his  ability to express his feelings of love for Jack. It's scary for a child, living with the aftermath of death, especially when he is left without the support or theraputic counseling we have today.  It was  burden taken in and never fully deat with, therefore Jack suffered the consequences of  it too, simply as the one who fell in love with this wounded man , wounded in childhood, scarred for life by hate and fear... scared child, scared adult. My take.

p.s. : Yes Tony,  I had to go there did'nt I? Blame it on sleep deprivation , long hours whatever,  a threesome ivolving LaShawn? Now that throws a wet blanket ( no pun intended)  on things. She was a "lively little gal" who talks a blue streak .  Can we expect anything less? Now that I've had some sleep , it's first light...Can I take it back? To borrow a phrase from Ennis..."Aint right".  I'm so 

[babytammy7]

I've been reading this thread since it started, and I love it, but the two last pages are really AMAZING!!! Gorgeous posts everyone!!

Thomas, Andrew, wonderful thoughts. 

Barb, I TOTALLY agree with every post you wrote. Beautiful. 

MG, I love the way you say it all; I love your thoughts about Ennis and Jack. You know the true about them.

AF, you know how much I adore your posts and I agree with them. 

    Where do we go to from here?  I guess continuing to explore and celebrate and empathize with the love story.  Del Mar senior could bully that little boy, but that Ennis and his Jack Twist are ours now, and every time we wander through the meanings of their love story, we tell that jerk, Del Mar Senior, he won the battle, crippling the life force of a child, his own child at that, but he lost the war.  Where do we go, MG?  Same place we've been going- wherever our hearts and minds lead us, here and in the RW.  Thanks for reminding me of just how huge the trauma was.

OMG Tony!! That was utterly precious!!  Thank you so much!! And I agree: Jack was a problem solver; he was an amazing human begin. 

[tpe]

    All of the above is exactly what I believe, too.  But I still kind of think Ennis was suspicious, at least a little, that he wasn't loved as much as needed for sex.  Which he wanted, too, but with a reassuring formula: on this kinda stuff - you and me only.

   FlowerChild, our posts crossed.  Yeah, it's always there, the what-if's.  I kind of liked that one.

p.s. - Aintfoolin, that post of yours was a dandy and intelligent romp through human sexuality.  But ya had to end it with images of a threesome with LaShawn, didn't ya?  Which also brings up an awful question---would she have been LaShawning during the, er, activities?  The mind boggles.

Interesting.  For my part, I have always assumed that Ennis was secure in his knowledge that Jack loved him -- too secure, perhaps.  Had he been less secure, things would have perhaps ended up in a better place...

[babytammy7]

Interesting.  For my part, I have always assumed that Ennis was secure in his knowledge that Jack loved him -- too secure, perhaps.  Had he been less secure, things would have perhaps ended up in a better place...

But Thomas, if Ennis was so secure about Jack's love, why was he so shocked when he found the shirts, when he found that Jack's favorite place was BBM and he wanted his ashes there? I thought that Ennis was so shocked there because he realized that Jack loved him more than he ever thought!! What do you think?

[FlwrChild]

I think I see where you're going with that Thomas, and it's an interesting factor to point out. Knowing that Jack would always come back, knowing he'd accept the terms laid out. Doesn't make for a cataclysmic motivator to extend yourself beyond those borders, does it?

[Tony]

Interesting.  For my part, I have always assumed that Ennis was secure in his knowledge that Jack loved him -- too secure, perhaps.  Had he been less secure, things would have perhaps ended up in a better place...

   Darn, Thomas, I have the same problem Baby Tammy has, on this one.  If he was so absolutely certain of Jack's love for him, why the emotional shock at the end?
  Maybe he felt secure that Jack would keep coming back for sex and love, because Jack always did, but failed to interpret that as an overwhelming love, similar to his own.  A matter of degree.
  I still feel one of the biggest parts of this tragedy is that each lover was only absolutely certain of his own love, and could never be absolutely certain that that love was returned at the same level.  Ennis, for example, as I had mentioned, could not be sure which came first for Jack the sex, or the love. And Jack could only wonder how he could be loved when Ennis stubbornly refused to throw in with him.
 Oh, well, the writers left a lot of room for each of us to write part of the story ourselves, and so we have done, each legitimately.  Makes for some puzzlement at times, however, and that can be to the good.

[manhattangirl]

I think both were guilty as far as the sex v. love thing goes.  Or should I say sex is easy for the both of them to communicate their love for each other.  Ennis was  highly sexual when it came to Jack.  I doubt he let Jack be on those nights when they were together and v/v.  The final confrontation was exactly about that, sex, Jack complaint that Ennis was satisfied with "high altitude f#@ks once or twice a year", and  Ennis accusations of Jack's infidelity. 

But once you peel back the layers, what was it really about, love.  They didn't know it, or understand what they were saying out loud in front of God and everybody was, "I love you".  

That's what Ennis found in Jack's room, and that's what he found out from his daughter it was love.  IMO.

[tpe]

But Thomas, if Ennis was so secure about Jack's love, why was he so shocked when he found the shirts, when he found that Jack's favorite place was BBM and he wanted his ashes there? I thought that Ennis was so shocked there because he realized that Jack loved him more than he ever thought!! What do you think?

Because he didn't realize that it had been so deep and how much Jack had to endure for the sake of his love for Ennis.  Ennis didn't realize what the ranch meant to Jack.  He had taken it for granted that what was good enough for him was good enough for Jack.  This is typical of people who take the love of someone else for granted. 

[tpe]

I think I see where you're going with that Thomas, and it's an interesting factor to point out. Knowing that Jack would always come back, knowing he'd accept the terms laid out. Doesn't make for a cataclysmic motivator to extend yourself beyond those borders, does it?

Yes, this is my point: Ennis assumes that no matter what, Jack would be back to accept whatever terms suited him (Ennis).  Ennis didn't do this out of spite or selfishness.  I think he honestly thought that Jack saw things his way.  That was why he was so shocked when he discovered the shirts, and perhaps felt more than a bit of guilt realizing what he had made Jack go through over the years -- even as it revealed how much he had made himself go through over the years.

[tpe]

   Darn, Thomas, I have the same problem Baby Tammy has, on this one.  If he was so absolutely certain of Jack's love for him, why the emotional shock at the end?
  Maybe he felt secure that Jack would keep coming back for sex and love, because Jack always did, but failed to interpret that as an overwhelming love, similar to his own.  A matter of degree.
  I still feel one of the biggest parts of this tragedy is that each lover was only absolutely certain of his own love, and could never be absolutely certain that that love was returned at the same level.  Ennis, for example, as I had mentioned, could not be sure which came first for Jack the sex, or the love. And Jack could only wonder how he could be loved when Ennis stubbornly refused to throw in with him.
 Oh, well, the writers left a lot of room for each of us to write part of the story ourselves, and so we have done, each legitimately.  Makes for some puzzlement at times, however, and that can be to the good.

AS I mentioned in my reply to Tammy, the shock came out of realization: the realization that Jack went along for the ride not because he was getting what he wanted, but because he loved Ennis enough to endure everything.  As I had said, Ennis's attitude is typical of many of us who take things for granted.  I am sure you have had the experience of taking someone for granted, up until that person or loved one died or went away, and you begin to realize that you could have done things a bit different.

[tpe]

I think both were guilty as far as the sex v. love thing goes.  Or should I say sex is easy for the both of them to communicate their love for each other.  Ennis was  highly sexual when it came to Jack.  I doubt he let Jack be on those nights when they were together and v/v.  The final confrontation was exactly about that, sex, Jack complaint that Ennis was satisfied with "high altitude f#@ks once or twice a year", and  Ennis accusations of Jack's infidelity.  

But once you peel back the layers, what was it really about, love.  They didn't know it, or understand what they were saying out loud in front of God and everybody was, "I love you".  

That's what Ennis found in Jack's room, and that's what he found out from his daughter it was love.  IMO.

On the surface, I am sure that the Final Confrontation was along the lines of sex.  But I am sure you will agree, MG, that this only proved a catalyst for all the pent-up feelings that welled up inside of them over the years -- especially in Jack's case.  I think Jack's sexual need hid a deeper frustration of wanting more from Ennis -- something that he never really had and had always desired.  Hence the valedictory in the short story and the Dozy Embrace.