Topic: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?

[Tony]

The special love between Ennis and Jack is not just that they found each other, but that they were so perfectly matched - temperamentally, emotionally, financially, socially, skills-wise, and in almost every aspect of existence. The only tragic mismatch was their gender in a homophobic society.

  We almost always agree, Andrew, but when we don't, it usually brings out something more to work with.  I do agree the two were very well matched, but don't see the homophobic society as the problem.  In fact, I've started seeing the whole love story in a new way, in the context of the book "Sophie's Choice".
  There, two people fall in love but the woman cannot accept fully the amazing gift given to her by life because of a terrible choice she had had to make during the holocaust (which of her 2 children had to die - a choice devised sadistically by the prison guard).  So when life erupted into a wonderful love, she could not fully commit- she'd been permanently crippled emotionally and did not believe....in happiness.
  And so I do see Ennis as crippled, and not just by the Earl/Rich tragedy, but probably by no one ever really having loved him enough as a child, and then being poor and discardable.  He was resigned, maybe not stoically as we've always seemed to think, but by long term depression, to never being able to live a happy life if one ever came along.  He wasn't totally broken, as we see scenes of joy here and there, but, like Sophie, he did not believe life could go well for him.
  So here comes Jack, as full of life and romantic love as Sophie's lover. And Ennis, like her, was caught up in that love, but when it came time to repudiate the past and make a real life, neither could do it.  No, I don't think it was the homophobic society. It looks to me like a broken man, wishing he could live again, trying to live again, but crippled by his past.  Sophie's choice:  a full commitment wouldn't work.  Life was too evil to risk living again.

[lancecowboy]

  We almost always agree, Andrew, but when we don't, it usually brings out something more to work with.  I do agree the two were very well matched, but don't see the homophobic society as the problem.  In fact, I've started seeing the whole love story in a new way, in the context of the book "Sophie's Choice".
  There, two people fall in love but the woman cannot accept fully the amazing gift given to her by life because of a terrible choice she had had to make during the holocaust (which of her 2 children had to die - a choice devised sadistically by the prison guard).  So when life erupted into a wonderful love, she could not fully commit- she'd been permanently crippled emotionally and did not believe....in happiness.
  And so I do see Ennis as crippled, and not just by the Earl/Rich tragedy, but probably by no one ever really having loved him enough as a child, and then being poor and discardable.  He was resigned, maybe not stoically as we've always seemed to think, but by long term depression, to never being able to live a happy life if one ever came along.  He wasn't totally broken, as we see scenes of joy here and there, but, like Sophie, he did not believe life could go well for him.
  So here comes Jack, as full of life and romantic love as Sophie's lover. And Ennis, like her, was caught up in that love, but when it came time to repudiate the past and make a real life, neither could do it.  No, I don't think it was the homophobic society. It looks to me like a broken man, wishing he could live again, trying to live again, but crippled by his past.  Sophie's choice:  a full commitment wouldn't work.  Life was too evil to risk living again.

Oh, man, Tony, you sure don't mince words, and I thank you for the Sophie's Choice reference. I recall the movie, but I have not seen it yet. All I can say, through tears, is that I think you expressed exactly the Ennis that makes Heath's performance so amazing. How does one portray a character as you described? Heath did it in all the little things, that hit us, me, emotionally deep down, without explicitly explaining it, as you did so well. Thank you.

The river scene after their reunion, with Ennis smiling up to heaven giving thanks, then Jack's "Life can be like this, always', and Ennis' excuse of Earl and Rich, is exactly what your last sentence described. And also, earlier in the motel scene, when Ennis said, "I am stuck with what I've got" also reflects the broken man crippled by the past that you speak of.

And as tpe said, Jack was probably Ennis' first and only friend, true friend of the heart, and from that deep friendship, their love took shape, and wings. The sex was just a natural result of two guys in love.

[tpe]

  We almost always agree, Andrew, but when we don't, it usually brings out something more to work with.  I do agree the two were very well matched, but don't see the homophobic society as the problem.  In fact, I've started seeing the whole love story in a new way, in the context of the book "Sophie's Choice".
  There, two people fall in love but the woman cannot accept fully the amazing gift given to her by life because of a terrible choice she had had to make during the holocaust (which of her 2 children had to die - a choice devised sadistically by the prison guard).  So when life erupted into a wonderful love, she could not fully commit- she'd been permanently crippled emotionally and did not believe....in happiness.
  And so I do see Ennis as crippled, and not just by the Earl/Rich tragedy, but probably by no one ever really having loved him enough as a child, and then being poor and discardable.  He was resigned, maybe not stoically as we've always seemed to think, but by long term depression, to never being able to live a happy life if one ever came along.  He wasn't totally broken, as we see scenes of joy here and there, but, like Sophie, he did not believe life could go well for him.
  So here comes Jack, as full of life and romantic love as Sophie's lover. And Ennis, like her, was caught up in that love, but when it came time to repudiate the past and make a real life, neither could do it.  No, I don't think it was the homophobic society. It looks to me like a broken man, wishing he could live again, trying to live again, but crippled by his past.  Sophie's choice:  a full commitment wouldn't work.  Life was too evil to risk living again.

Very provocative insight here, Tony  I had never seen Ennis's plight in terms of "Sophie's Choice".  The question of self-happiness in love (or a lack/disbelief thereof) for Ennis is a very elusive thing -- I go back and forth as far as seeing it as a cause or an effect.

[atalley]

Very interesting read, guys...

[rimasworld]

Very provocative insight here, Tony  I had never seen Ennis's plight in terms of "Sophie's Choice".  The question of self-happiness in love (or a lack/disbelief thereof) for Ennis is a very elusive thing -- I go back and forth as far as seeing it as a cause or an effect.

Ennis had many emotional scars and I do think for the most part he was sad. Such a complex character!

[lancecowboy]

[...] Life was too evil to risk living again.

Tony, your whole post, as tpe pointed out, is provocative, and your last sentence stuck with me, forcing me to think deeply on its application to Ennis, and me.

As I have already expressed its application to Ennis, permit me to be slightly off topic and relate its application to me, and I will endeavor to bring the topic back.

That sentence was the epitome of how I felt, when Heath passed away so suddenly. It brought back all the feelings when my friend died suddenly 28 years ago, at the age of 21. Life was too evil to risk living, trusting, loving, hoping, building a future, with expectations and dreams. And reading the synopsis for Sophie's Choice, I realized also, she had the added burden of tremendous guilt. I don't pretend to understand it, because no parent should be made to choose as she did, and no one could possibly understand the anguish except a parent faced with that choice. Ennis, may or may not felt guilty over Earl's death. We don't know if he was friendly with the old men, if his father's or the murderer's motivation were to end their friendship. In any case, there is always some elements of "survivor's guilt" and in my case, I had it in abundance for a long time. To bring the discussion back to topic, I can see what you mean, that Ennis was the broken man who expected nothing from life, because he had nothing.

Mourning Heath also taught me something else. Mourning Heath, gave me the opportunity to learn from his life's lessons, from his example, that Ennis learned from Jack's Ma in Lightning Flat, that no matter how cruel and cold the world may be, the stud duck may be, always make the most of what I've got, show the warmth of my smile, and perhaps, if I am lucky, there'd be a Jack or Ennis. That's what Heath did all his life, never letting life's downturns get him down.

And so that's where I stand today, loving the man who gave me so much, and doing what I think is the only reasonable response, in a cold cruel world, where, as you said, in your last sentence, life was too evil to risk living again. There is no other choice, but to Dance. Sorry that I am mixing my metaphors and allegories or whatever the literary device this is.

Garth Brooks, the Dance:

Looking back on the memory of
The dance we shared 'neath the stars above
For a moment all the world was right
How could I have known that you'd ever say goodbye

And now I'm glad I didn't know
The way it all would end the way it all would go
Our lives are better left to chance I could have missed the pain
But I'd have had to miss the dance

Holding you I held everything
For a moment wasn't I a king
But if I'd only known how the king would fall
Hey who's to say you know I might have changed it all

And now I'm glad I didn't know
The way it all would end the way it all would go
Our lives are better left to chance I could have missed the pain
But I'd have had to miss the dance

Yes my life is better left to chance
I could have missed the pain but I'd have had to miss the dance

-------

If you'd like to hear the song, in a Heath tribute video, just go to youtube, and search on the keywords:

"Heath tribute Garth Brooks the Dance"

It contains some paparazzi photos, so I won't add the direct link.

 

[tpe]

Ennis had many emotional scars and I do think for the most part he was sad. Such a complex character!

You have said it all here, rimasworld.  If there is anything to describe Ennis's resistance to love and friendship, it is the word "sad".

O sad are they who know not love
But far from passions tears and smiles
Drift down a moonless sea
Beyond the silvery coasts of fairy Isles.
And sadder they whose longing lips
Kiss empty air and never touch
The dear warm mouth of those they love
Waiting, wasting, suffering much...
 

[Tony]

    It would be very difficult to do justice to the previous 2 posts, but I would like to say a little.  Andrew, I didn't think you were off topic, I thought you were right there, on the troubles of Ennis, even though you had to reach into your past.  Your whole approach is coherent and progressive, in the face of tragedy, but, I have to say, sometimes people don't have the resilience shown in that song, "The Dance".  We should look for that, but the reality is, sometimes it doesn't work out that way.
  Am not sure the song applies to Ennis, but am not saying it doesn't.  Mostly, he was lucky in that he found the goodness of Jack's mother and of his own daughter.  After reading your post, I didn't feel Ennis would have been ready for that way of thinking, of healing, or at least not for a long while.
But it did strike me how much the worse it would have been had there been no daughter, no Ma Twist, and no shirts.  He was left something.  Maybe not the complete happy ending people want, but.....something.
   Then Thomas' post pointed out again, the resistance Ennis had to accepting friendship and love.  My mind is a little foggy this morning, but I wonder if the answer there is not constant brutality during his childhood, but maybe that...oh, how to say this....he was just a sensitive child...somehow alone, aware of some heavy coldness in his relatives, and that was all it took.  We tend to think children are completely a product of their family and environment, but I think a "good" child can be born into a crummy family, and so saying he was sensitive doesn't cover the territory.  Somehow, he was better than them, that young, and that's where the battering came from, and that's why he was broken.  Will try for more later, and looking for the other side of the story, where life did find something for him, somehow.

[Tony]

If there is anything to describe Ennis's resistance to love and friendship, it is the word "sad".


 

   The moderators have given a lot of latitude, so far, so, am going into the territory of Jack and Ennis' childhood.  The SS doesn't support much trolling around there, but the movie seems to raise some questions about how they got the way they were.
  In a previous post, I wondered if Ennis wasn't born into the wrong family.  You could go several ways there, including the metaphysical, that a baby is born with an independent identity.  Or you could go to genetics. In dogs, for example, there are genetic variations in the temperament of individual puppies, and this has been used by breeders all along to develop a stronger strain, Golden Labs for gentleness, pit bulls for the reverse.  But either way you go, the metaphysical or genetic variations, we shouldn't suppose a baby is like his or her parents and then completely molded by the environment.
  In the movie, we see that close-up of Ennis as a child, seeing Earl dead, and he is roughly normal for his age, if quiet and hurt by what he sees, as well as by the implications of his father's reptilian ways.  I'd avoid the word "sensitive" and just say, he was a better human being than his father.
And, somehow, other things weren't right either.  A cantankerous bully of a brother, and rural isolation leaving few playmates.  Whatever was going on, that child COULD love, but saw there wasn't much safety there and hunkered down for the long run.
  With Jack, we do see that wonderful mother, that let his spirit keep believing, and a father more withdrawn than agrressive.   It's so little to work with, but I do feel Ennis was born into the wrong family.  Jack was a product of the tensions of his hermit crab father and loving mother.  He accepted them both.
  It seems to me then, that tpe is right in saying Ennis' failures were sad, but I'd go further and say Ennis himself was mostly sad, even by the age of 19, and yet still holding on.  Jack was happy, nearly all the time, and looking for happiness.  But both had gone too far, Ennis just not believing it was safe to be happy over the long run-all he thought was possible was stealing a little joy before people found out and took it back.  And Jack went too far the other way - a dreamer.
  My apologies for a long post that really only touches on small matters, but, anything we can do to try to flesh out who they were is what we do here.

[lancecowboy]

[...]....he was just a sensitive child...somehow alone, aware of some heavy coldness in [...]

Tony, as usual, your words touch a part of me, and I was aware of Ennis' sensitivity, and his fortress as a reaction to the heavy coldness of the outside world. You also mentioned his long term depression, and tpe described his self-imposed exile as sad.

I agree with all your judgment here, and will add that, you are indeed correct, that Ennis was fortunate, to have his daughter, Jack's Ma, indeed, Jack. Instead of wishing for what we cannot have, Ennis could have counted his blessing, and be happy, like this, always. In a way, I am still convinced, alone in this I suppose, that Ennis was ready to accept fate as it was, when he put up those numbers in the mailbox. Alone or not, happy or not, Ennis was still the stoic cowboy what would put up with 'most anything life throws at him. And after Jack, life was starting to treat him better than most.

Just my opinion.

[tpe]

Thnaks Tony.  And thanks also lance for your response.

In real life, we see many instances where people are seemingly born into the "wrong" family.  They are marked by a sensitivity and depth that sometimes seemily contradicts their immediate surroundings.  And yest, we should understand that sensitivity and depth may arise as a reaction to those same unpromising circumstances.

I agree with Tony when he says that Ennis himself is sad.  But I should also note that Jack didn't really have a happy childhood either, and yet he tried to touch happiness with both hands. 

The difference, of course is that whereas Jack tried to grasp happiness through his found friendship and love of Ennis, in the case of Ennis, it was a mixed bag: Ennis's friendship and love of Jack brought him both happiness and misery.  Perhaps the key to this misery is in one word: guilt.

[babytammy7]

The difference, of course is that whereas Jack tried to grasp happiness through his found friendship and love of Ennis, in the case of Ennis, it was a mixed bag: Ennis's friendship and love of Jack brought him both happiness and misery.  Perhaps the key to this misery is in one word: guilt.

I think you're right here Thomas. 

[Tony]

  Perhaps the key to this misery is in one word: guilt.

  There are probably many kinds of guilt, but here, would like to look at just two: guilt over breaking your own rules vs. guilt over breaking those of others.
There didn't seem to be much guilt on Ennis' part over having sex with Jack, at least, based on the film.  None of that post-coital ....ugh...did I really do that?  And then getting away from the sexual partner quickly.  Just the opposite.  Ennis lingered, relaxed, and loved.
  But the other guilt-what would his father think?  That one was deadly.  Heath Ledger said this was also a story of a man struggling with the judgments of a father, and (I think) his father's father.  THAT shows up in the SS and the film.  But how can that second kind of guilt be so powerful?  Maybe because Ennis could not bring himself to repudiate his father nor hate him.  Frankly, that's the worst case scenario for children - an abusive or judgmental parent that the child still loves, which leads to a lifetime of misery.
  Jack, on the other hand, probably didn't find freedom by hating his father.  Instead, he just de-clawed him.  The old man was bitter and judgmental, and had been aggressive once, but had lost his authority and power when he couldn't keep up the little ranch/farm.  Jack probably just flipped him off as no further threat and worked around him for the sake of his mother.  No guilt there, then, from a discredited authority.
  And maybe a lot comes down to that:  Ennis let the world (including the judgment of relatives) run his life.  Jack didn't.

[lancecowboy]

Thnaks Tony.  And thanks also lance for your response.

In real life, we see many instances where people are seemingly born into the "wrong" family.  They are marked by a sensitivity and depth that sometimes seemily contradicts their immediate surroundings.  And yest, we should understand that sensitivity and depth may arise as a reaction to those same unpromising circumstances.

I agree with Tony when he says that Ennis himself is sad.  But I should also note that Jack didn't really have a happy childhood either, and yet he tried to touch happiness with both hands. 

The difference, of course is that whereas Jack tried to grasp happiness through his found friendship and love of Ennis, in the case of Ennis, it was a mixed bag: Ennis's friendship and love of Jack brought him both happiness and misery.  Perhaps the key to this misery is in one word: guilt.

I don't agree about being born into the "wrong" family. There is no "right" or "wrong". We don't choose our family. It is a gift. How we deal with the gift is up to us.

I agree that Ennis is a sensitive soul, and perhaps, at the age of nine, that is to be expected. It is why child abuse are horrible, of any kind, especially of the mental and ethical kind, where children are brainwashed with hateful ideas. Ennis suffered at the hand of the father, and his life was forever changed. It was redeem only through Jack's devoted and unfailing love. I can't see where Ennis has guilt in their relationship.

At the end, in the closet, I can see shock and regret. But, guilt? I am not convinced of that.

[lancecowboy]

  There are probably many kinds of guilt, but here, would like to look at just two: guilt over breaking your own rules vs. guilt over breaking those of others.
There didn't seem to be much guilt on Ennis' part over having sex with Jack, at least, based on the film.  None of that post-coital ....ugh...did I really do that?  And then getting away from the sexual partner quickly.  Just the opposite.  Ennis lingered, relaxed, and loved.
  But the other guilt-what would his father think?  That one was deadly.  Heath Ledger said this was also a story of a man struggling with the judgments of a father, and (I think) his father's father.  THAT shows up in the SS and the film.  But how can that second kind of guilt be so powerful?  Maybe because Ennis could not bring himself to repudiate his father nor hate him.  Frankly, that's the worst case scenario for children - an abusive or judgmental parent that the child still loves, which leads to a lifetime of misery.
  Jack, on the other hand, probably didn't find freedom by hating his father.  Instead, he just de-clawed him.  The old man was bitter and judgmental, and had been aggressive once, but had lost his authority and power when he couldn't keep up the little ranch/farm.  Jack probably just flipped him off as no further threat and worked around him for the sake of his mother.  No guilt there, then, from a discredited authority.
  And maybe a lot comes down to that:  Ennis let the world (including the judgment of relatives) run his life.  Jack didn't.

I agree with you 100% here, Tony. Ennis was not so much guilty over his own life, but over how others viewed him.

And I love your phrase ... Jack de-clawed the stud duck bully, by simply ignoring him from the moment he could move out, away from the desolate place. In a away, Jack did it again in the Thanksgiving scene, when he stood up to old man Newsome.

Stand up to bullies, Ennis, especially the ones in your heart. Don't let their hidden voices run your life.

In the end, in the closet, Ennis recognized Jack's voice of love calling out over twenty years, and responded.

Forever putting the bullies behind him.

[Tony]

Stand up to bullies, Ennis, especially the ones in your heart. Don't let their hidden voices run your life.

In the end, in the closet, Ennis recognized Jack's voice of love calling out over twenty years, and responded.

Forever putting the bullies behind him.

     This was beautiful.  This post is an example of how we can still be going into this movie, this love story, over 2 years later, and finding more there both for those 2 friends, and for our own lives.  Well done, Andrew.  And the same for all the others still answering, in some way, the call from both of those two lovers, to us.

[manhattangirl]

Ennis had a great excuse and all the ingredients to become a bully, just as Jack had to become a victim.  Neither let themselves falls prey to either.  Ennis tries to bully Jack but Jack wasn't going for it, not at the end of that first summer, after being sock in the eye Jack still reached out to Ennis, maybe knowing where Ennis's anger came from, and it wasn't him. 

It was  in the outside world, away from each other, you see how each man got a sense of themselves, how their conduct effects the people around him.  Thanksgiving is a great example of that.  Ennis after grabbing Alma's arm and threatens to kick the crap out of old Monroe, big time bully move, but then would allow himself to be beaten by a stranger, as if he knew what he did was wrong, and had to be punish for it.  Jack defers to LD up until the point he couldn't take it any more and puts the old guy in his place, and even than it seemed hard for him to do, a "bully smack down".  Each man some how got a sense of their own vulnerabilities. 

Does this make any kind of sense?     

[Tony]

 Each man some how got a sense of their own vulnerabilities. 

  

    If I read your post correctly, Manhattangirl, it makes a great deal of sense. Ennis was primed for being a bully, like his father. In the SS, his father taught him to get his brother off his back by hitting back hard.  But he defied the script written for him.  He even challenged bullies (the 4th of July scenes), and he never did hit Alma.  The proof he had none of that in him was when, after quarreling with Alma over her working over-time, he kicked a bucket or something behind the 2 little girls, enraged.  And  they weren't even remotely afraid.  They knew their Daddy. It was like:  "oh, Daddy....you're silly!"
  Same for Jack.  It could be said his father had primed him for being a victim, and he, too, defied the script.  He went the other way and always looked for happiness.
  You're so right, then, MG.  They both knew what they had been aimed at being, what you call "their own vulnerabilities", and they weren't going for it.  I guess that's part of the complexity of life, though, that you can dodge one bullet, and then get hit by another, not understood or foreseen.

[lancecowboy]

    If I read your post correctly, Manhattangirl, it makes a great deal of sense. Ennis was primed for being a bully, like his father. In the SS, his father taught him to get his brother off his back by hitting back hard.  But he defied the script written for him.  He even challenged bullies (the 4th of July scenes), and he never did hit Alma.  The proof he had none of that in him was when, after quarreling with Alma over her working over-time, he kicked a bucket or something behind the 2 little girls, enraged.  And  they weren't even remotely afraid.  They knew their Daddy. It was like:  "oh, Daddy....you're silly!"
  Same for Jack.  It could be said his father had primed him for being a victim, and he, too, defied the script.  He went the other way and always looked for happiness.
  You're so right, then, MG.  They both knew what they had been aimed at being, what you call "their own vulnerabilities", and they weren't going for it.  I guess that's part of the complexity of life, though, that you can dodge one bullet, and then get hit by another, not understood or foreseen.

Thanks, Tony. Your words are more and more profound as this thread builds up towards...

I love your phrases, they defied their scripts...dodging their own vulnerabilities...then being hit, by the love between them...unforeseen, and not understood.

I always thought the scene with the two girls on the swing set...after Ennis kicked the bucket (hmmm...is that symbolic of the death of the marriage?)...was a little perplexing, as you said, they did not react with fear as would be expected. Your conclusion makes perfect sense, and also explains the love and attachment Alma Jr has for her Daddy. She understood him best of all.

Ennis was the cowboy gentle and strong, able to stand up to bullies, and to caress with sensitivity.    Jack was the "victim" who maintained hope and dreams, despite all the setbacks and rejections, and always ready and receptive to Ennis. The two were perfect and complete for each other.

I venture to go one step further and say, that their summer of '63 on Brokeback Mountain, gave them the strength and inner love to change their scripts. Without Jack, Ennis might eventually build up so much fear and anger, that he would become the typical bully, following the script his daddy gave him. Without Ennis, Jack might eventually succumb to the despair and pain that he finally felt so deeply at the final meeting, and became the perpetual victim hanging out in bars looking at young cowboys with hunger, as the prototype for Annie Proulx's short story.

Brokeback Mountain got them good, gave them the love, the force of nature so strong, that they changed their life's scripts - they changed their stars.

And through their love, others have changed their stars.

[Tony]

as this thread builds up towards...





I venture to go one step further and say, that their summer of '63 on Brokeback Mountain, gave them the strength and inner love to change their scripts. Without Jack, Ennis might eventually build up so much fear and anger, that he would become the typical bully, following the script his daddy gave him. Without Ennis, Jack might eventually succumb to the despair and pain that he finally felt so deeply at the final meeting, and became the perpetual victim hanging out in bars looking at young cowboys with hunger, as the prototype for Annie Proulx's short story.

Brokeback Mountain got them good, gave them the love, the force of nature so strong, that they changed their life's scripts - they changed their stars.

And through their love, others have changed their stars.

   Well, for me, this thread builds up to where I started from when I joined the forum, but with ever new understanding of what I thought I had seen.  Yeah, Andrew, where were they headed to, without that meteoric collision on the mountain?  I think you're right - Jack would have spiralled downward exactly as you described him, someone who never knew love and ended up quietly looking over the other guys in the tavern.  Bullseye.
  Ennis- well, am not sure he would have become a bully.  It's occurred to me that he had a strong love-force, repressed, but a life-force that had been smashed somehow.  And the two can be different.  His life-force was broken (and remained near to broken, even with Jack).  He wouldn't try for a better job. He wouldn't venture out past the little world he knew. He had few to no friends.  His life-force was broken.
  But the ability to love wasn't.  He had some level of love for Alma, and a vague, detached, but powerful love for his daughters.  Jack brought that out to the fore, and there was the collision- a love force that was so very strong, a life force that was crippled. He couldn't risk much with Jack.
  So, am back where I started.  Had they never met, as you pointed out, they were on track for much, much worse than did occur. Their love, then was.....redemptive (my first thread in this forum).  But that redemption didn't give them a happy ending in this old world.  No - they got 20 years of love, and proof of being loved, and many days of joy STOLEN from a hostile environment.  Which was far better than where they were, as you pointed out, headed.
  I know Jack died knowing he was loved.  He saw Ennis crack up, the last time they met up.  And we know Ennis found the proof he had always been loved, tucked away in Jack's childhood room.  Am back where I started.  The love redeemed them. Not into the materialistic success story we all favor. That love redeemed them from a living death -which was where they were headed.
  It's no wonder BBM pisses off a lot of people.  Those would be the people who never found that love from someone else and have to live their life faking it.
The rest of us, even if we never found that love those two had, at least know, it is possible, and we have shared in it, each in our own way.
 

[lancecowboy]

   Well, for me, this thread builds up to where I started from when I joined the forum, but with ever new understanding of what I thought I had seen.  Yeah, Andrew, where were they headed to, without that meteoric collision on the mountain?  I think you're right - Jack would have spiralled downward exactly as you described him, someone who never knew love and ended up quietly looking over the other guys in the tavern.  Bullseye.
  Ennis- well, am not sure he would have become a bully.  It's occurred to me that he had a strong love-force, repressed, but a life-force that had been smashed somehow.  And the two can be different.  His life-force was broken (and remained near to broken, even with Jack).  He wouldn't try for a better job. He wouldn't venture out past the little world he knew. He had few to no friends.  His life-force was broken.
  But the ability to love wasn't.  He had some level of love for Alma, and a vague, detached, but powerful love for his daughters.  Jack brought that out to the fore, and there was the collision- a love force that was so very strong, a life force that was crippled. He couldn't risk much with Jack.
  So, am back where I started.  Had they never met, as you pointed out, they were on track for much, much worse than did occur. Their love, then was.....redemptive (my first thread in this forum).  But that redemption didn't give them a happy ending in this old world.  No - they got 20 years of love, and proof of being loved, and many days of joy STOLEN from a hostile environment.  Which was far better than where they were, as you pointed out, headed.
  I know Jack died knowing he was loved.  He saw Ennis crack up, the last time they met up.  And we know Ennis found the proof he had always been loved, tucked away in Jack's childhood room.  Am back where I started.  The love redeemed them. Not into the materialistic success story we all favor. That love redeemed them from a living death -which was where they were headed.
  It's no wonder BBM pisses off a lot of people.  Those would be the people who never found that love from someone else and have to live their life faking it.
The rest of us, even if we never found that love those two had, at least know, it is possible, and we have shared in it, each in our own way.
 

Wow, Tony. I love your description of Ennis. I think you are closer to the mark than my simplistic shot in the dark, calling Ennis without loving Jack, the eventual bully angry at the world and afraid of love. I agree with you there, that Ennis has a strong love force within, even Cassie saw that. So you are probably right, without Jack, Ennis might be one of those quiet loving fathers who are devoted to their wives and children but never experience passion and love as deep as the love between Ennis and Jack. They will do their duty, but that would be all, as you said, faking the love that they never feel deeply.

Thanks, buddy. This last few pages really helped me focus my own journey here. As you said, their timeless love redeemed their vulnerabilities, and ours.

My only disagreement with you in this post, is your BOLDED word, describing their STOLEN days of joy, from a hostile world. I am sure you meant something different from what I read. Here is my own perception of their meeting over those 20 years. Those were their demonstration of their love for each other, verbalized or not. Each time Jack drove 12 hours each way, and each time Ennis quit his job to spend time with Jack, they were doing what guys do to show their love, not with words but deeds. Are those days STOLEN? OR are those days built on sacrifices from each of their own lives? Ennis sacrificed his relationship with his wife and children; Jack sacrificed less, perhaps, but more, in a way, considering the cow and calf operation.

If anything was stolen, it was their life together, the good life, the happy life, together, always. It was stolen by, as you said, the hostile environment. Instead, what they had was a compromise scraped together from what little choices they had, in order to have their high-altitude f#$#%s two three times a year in the middle of nowhere, once in a while. They didn't steal those days of joy and happiness. They paid for them with sacrifices no one should have had to pay in the first place.

[lancecowboy]

     Tony and Lance...Thank you.

     Theres no reigns on this one..

Welcome to the valley of peace and friendship, Ranchand1. I hope you will throw in a few poetic logs into the fire. I love the way you have with words, the words from the movie.

Feel free, to pull up a log, and stick your boots next to the fire. There is enough love here to warm everyone who wants it.

[Tony]

  They didn't steal those days of joy and happiness. They paid for them with sacrifices no one should have had to pay in the first place.

    Well, Andrew, I haven't learned much in my life, but I have learned that opposite statements can both be true.  I absolutely agree with you that Jack and Ennis paid, and a very high price, for what should have been automatically theirs.  But that's in the world as it should be.
   The world as it is, can be unusually hostile to our rights, and that can be the forces of nature (catastrophes, illnesses and so on) or the forces of ignorance and cruelty.  In that context then, the use of the word "stolen" joy from life has been around for a very, very long time.  And implies no wrongfulness on the part of those doing that.  The reference, then, is to an unnatural, miserly, hostile world where happiness is rightfully snatched, against the odds, or stolen.  Opposites can be true, depending on the context.

[lancecowboy]

    Well, Andrew, I haven't learned much in my life, but I have learned that opposite statements can both be true.  I absolutely agree with you that Jack and Ennis paid, and a very high price, for what should have been automatically theirs.  But that's in the world as it should be.
   The world as it is, can be unusually hostile to our rights, and that can be the forces of nature (catastrophes, illnesses and so on) or the forces of ignorance and cruelty.  In that context then, the use of the word "stolen" joy from life has been around for a very, very long time.  And implies no wrongfulness on the part of those doing that.  The reference, then, is to an unnatural, miserly, hostile world where happiness is rightfully snatched, against the odds, or stolen.  Opposites can be true, depending on the context.

Thanks for your patient explanation, Tony. Like I said in my preamble, I probably did not understand what you meant. In this context, I agree that they managed to steal days of joy from a hostile life, snatching memories of happiness from the jaws of a cold cruel world.

[tpe]

  There are probably many kinds of guilt, but here, would like to look at just two: guilt over breaking your own rules vs. guilt over breaking those of others.
There didn't seem to be much guilt on Ennis' part over having sex with Jack, at least, based on the film.  None of that post-coital ....ugh...did I really do that?  And then getting away from the sexual partner quickly.  Just the opposite.  Ennis lingered, relaxed, and loved.
  But the other guilt-what would his father think?  That one was deadly.  Heath Ledger said this was also a story of a man struggling with the judgments of a father, and (I think) his father's father.  THAT shows up in the SS and the film.  But how can that second kind of guilt be so powerful?  Maybe because Ennis could not bring himself to repudiate his father nor hate him.  Frankly, that's the worst case scenario for children - an abusive or judgmental parent that the child still loves, which leads to a lifetime of misery.
  Jack, on the other hand, probably didn't find freedom by hating his father.  Instead, he just de-clawed him.  The old man was bitter and judgmental, and had been aggressive once, but had lost his authority and power when he couldn't keep up the little ranch/farm.  Jack probably just flipped him off as no further threat and worked around him for the sake of his mother.  No guilt there, then, from a discredited authority.
  And maybe a lot comes down to that:  Ennis let the world (including the judgment of relatives) run his life.  Jack didn't.

Thanks Tammy and Tony.

Would you find it strange that I also think Ennis had guilty feelings when he had sex with Jack?  This is not to say that he didn't enjoy it.  But I would say that his actions left him more and more conflicted with each passing year.  he couldn't deny it, but I also think he couldn't face up to it.

And BTW, I think Ennis also felt conflicted about his father: he certainly couldn't repudiate his memory entirely, even when his legacy haunted him in his search for friendship. love, and happiness.

[tpe]

I don't agree about being born into the "wrong" family. There is no "right" or "wrong". We don't choose our family. It is a gift. How we deal with the gift is up to us.

I agree that Ennis is a sensitive soul, and perhaps, at the age of nine, that is to be expected. It is why child abuse are horrible, of any kind, especially of the mental and ethical kind, where children are brainwashed with hateful ideas. Ennis suffered at the hand of the father, and his life was forever changed. It was redeem only through Jack's devoted and unfailing love. I can't see where Ennis has guilt in their relationship.

At the end, in the closet, I can see shock and regret. But, guilt? I am not convinced of that.

"Right" or "wrong", there is no denying the fact that some people develop sensibilities that go against everything that their families have stood for.  For example, a sensitive young man who is brought up in a militaristic household (many examples of this, to be sure).  Or star-crossed lovers in the fashion of Romeo and Juliet -- how many times do we see innocent young members of families destroyed by the feauds and hatreds of their elders?  There are many ways, alas, when a family becomes more an impediment to the friendships, loves, and happiness of its members.

 

[tpe]

Ennis had a great excuse and all the ingredients to become a bully, just as Jack had to become a victim.  Neither let themselves falls prey to either.  Ennis tries to bully Jack but Jack wasn't going for it, not at the end of that first summer, after being sock in the eye Jack still reached out to Ennis, maybe knowing where Ennis's anger came from, and it wasn't him. 

It was  in the outside world, away from each other, you see how each man got a sense of themselves, how their conduct effects the people around him.  Thanksgiving is a great example of that.  Ennis after grabbing Alma's arm and threatens to kick the crap out of old Monroe, big time bully move, but then would allow himself to be beaten by a stranger, as if he knew what he did was wrong, and had to be punish for it.  Jack defers to LD up until the point he couldn't take it any more and puts the old guy in his place, and even than it seemed hard for him to do, a "bully smack down".  Each man some how got a sense of their own vulnerabilities.  

Does this make any kind of sense?     

Yes.

OT: funny that we share the same exact interpretation of the scene where Ennis gets beaten up after the Thanksgiving dinner. 

[Tony]

Would you find it strange that I also think Ennis had guilty feelings when he had sex with Jack?  This is not to say that he didn't enjoy it.  But I would say that his actions left him more and more conflicted with each passing year.  he couldn't deny it, but I also think he couldn't face up to it.

   The operative word is "when" he had sex with Jack.  I really didn't get any impression of that from the SS or film.  Which would say a lot about Ennis, as there is guilt, for some, even in straight sex.  Looked to me like he had a very healthy attitude, before, during, and after.
   But as far as over-all guilt, over the relationship itself, it's there in a massive way.  So, forgive me for making the distinction, but I see Ennis, when he's in the over-all sexual zone (before, during, after) as extremely healthy.  The sex, itself.  But as far as the relationship, the love and the sex, when he returned to the non-sexual world, of day-to-day life, he was crippled with guilt.
  Secrecy and isolation played a part, too.  Riding through the woods and the streams with his lover---no guilt.  Pure joy.  Talking to Jack, with his daughters in the pick-up truck, guilt to the point of paranoia, seeing things in passing cars.  Sexual guilt, then - no.  He was more free than most men.  Guilt over what others would think, there, a prisoner of the larger world.

[babytammy7]

I'm totally amazed at this. For the first time since I'm here I disagree with my dear two friends Tony and Andrew. I can't believe it, but it's true.

I read this thread every day and I have so many things to say about it. I love it so much. I always agree with them, but not now, not with the way Tony and Andrew see our boys if they never had met each other.

Sorry so much for this lame post. I promise I'll find the time to post why I disagree. I just have to find words and time to write, because I'm sooooo slow. But I'll be here.

Thank you so much for your wonderful posts, Tony, Andrew, MG and Thomas!! 

[Tony]

  Baby Tammy - disagreement is good!  If we all agreed on everything, we might as well be bumps on a log.  I look forward to hearing what you think, and am ready to change my mind, whenever that seems right.  Don't hold back, but say what you think.  It's so dull if everybody thinks the same way.