Topic: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?

[Tony]

However we feel about the Dozy Embrace, I think we can safely acknowledge that people can be deeply in love without seeming to be open about it, even to each other and to themselves.

    Amen to that.

[FlwrChild]

    This was what I was trying to say, above.  But, clearly, neither knew the depth of the other's love and that is why I said Jack's perception was wrong.
That can't be so very radical an idea, since we do know  they both had misperceptions that crippled the relationship.

Absolutely Tony. I believe that Jack knew that Ennis loved him, to some degree, but not the depth of that love (which I believe Ennis himself didn't even realize until the end). And I don't think that Ennis realized the depth of Jack's love until he found the shirts, after learning that Jack wanted his ashes scattered on BBM because it was his favorite place.

And being uncertain about some of the other's feelings couldn't help but lead to skewed perceptions at times.

(Oh, and I'm not sure I see Jack's wishes to be a concession to Ennis's need to keep them on BBM but rather a fulfillment of his own desire to rest in the place where he was happiest in life)


I view some of the things in the dozy embrace differently than you, mainly Jack's perception of that moment in time and what it meant to each of them. What I really love is that we have different ideas about various pieces of the story, but our views always seem to converge again in other spots along the way. I can't help feeling that means we must be tapping into the same elements of their love and the fundamental themes of their story. I love that we can approach it from different angles and still end up at the same center. Which I guess, really, is their hearts.

[Tony]

And being uncertain about some of the other's feelings couldn't help but lead to skewed perceptions at times.

   Hi, FlowerChild.  I didn't reply to this yesterday as I had already "over-posted".   Anyway, so much of this story is about skewed perceptions, on both sides, and much of that seems to come from the territory they were in being completely uncharted, out in the sparsely populated West.  They had no real reference points except, for Ennis, Earl and Rich, and for Jack, prostitutes in Mexico.  Unlike the 2 guys in "Shelter", there was no understanding of same-gender relationships being a part of the choices possible.
   So, they really invested in friendship and sex, but were haunted by doubts as to how romantic love could be possible or even work out, and that 3rd category was where they could not easily communicate.  There didn't seem to be any misunderstandings that the extremes of the first 2 categories were established and returned.  It was when romantic love was in question, that they hid their feelings all too often, and worked up defensive misconceptions, and danced through 20 years, carefully, so as not to be hurt.
  I really believe each feared the greatest risk wasn't splitting up, the greatest risk was finding out the sacred love each was aware of, within, was not returned on that level.  When Ennis says "....boys like you...", it's a strong clue he saw Jack as needing sex more than love.  When Jack's offer to hook up was refused, that had to tell Jack he wasn't needed as much by Ennis as was the reverse.  On romantic love, each, then, had strong reasons to hide what did, in fact, trump friendship and sex, the great love.  Too risky.  Loss there could not be survived.  That's how I see it, anyway.  Could be wrong.

[FlwrChild]

Hey, we could all be wrong, as far as whatever AP's intent might have been. But the beauty of both literature and film is that once it's been absorbed by the reader (or viewer), it becomes theirs as much as the author's. So in that respect, none of us are wrong. It is what it means to us.


As to those misconceptions our boys had, I tend to agree with your idea about their fear of finding they weren't loved as much in return as what they gave themselves. That having been said, I do think that Jack had an "understanding of same-gender relationships being a part of the choices possible." Not because he had been taught it necessarily, but because he knew how he felt inside and presumably didn't think it was wrong. This is why he proposed that 'sweet life' to Ennis. I think you're right though about his frame of reference in general and certainly the possibility of his perception that Ennis didn't need him as much as he needed Ennis.


When Ennis threw out that remark about "boys like you" though, I took it to mean homosexuals in general and not necessarily just those that are more about sex than love. Even after all those years, he seemed to be fighting the idea that he might be defined within that category as well. It's an interesting take...

I can't help but think that if Ennis ever took him up on that sweet life, Jack would be inclined to show more open affection to him (openly between each other, that is, not openly meaning in public). But if Ennis were never able to be comfortable breaking through that last wall, I think Jack would have followed his lead and just been happy enough to be together that he wouldn't have to have the demonstrative element. Having that great love would have then been enough. He wouldn't need to have it declared anymore.

[manhattangirl]

   Hi, FlowerChild.  I didn't reply to this yesterday as I had already "over-posted".   Anyway, so much of this story is about skewed perceptions, on both sides, and much of that seems to come from the territory they were in being completely uncharted, out in the sparsely populated West.  They had no real reference points except, for Ennis, Earl and Rich, and for Jack, prostitutes in Mexico.  Unlike the 2 guys in "Shelter", there was no understanding of same-gender relationships being a part of the choices possible.
   So, they really invested in friendship and sex, but were haunted by doubts as to how romantic love could be possible or even work out, and that 3rd category was where they could not easily communicate.  There didn't seem to be any misunderstandings that the extremes of the first 2 categories were established and returned.  It was when romantic love was in question, that they hid their feelings all too often, and worked up defensive misconceptions, and danced through 20 years, carefully, so as not to be hurt.
  I really believe each feared the greatest risk wasn't splitting up, the greatest risk was finding out the sacred love each was aware of, within, was not returned on that level.  When Ennis says "....boys like you...", it's a strong clue he saw Jack as needing sex more than love.  When Jack's offer to hook up was refused, that had to tell Jack he wasn't needed as much by Ennis as was the reverse.  On romantic love, each, then, had strong reasons to hide what did, in fact, trump friendship and sex, the great love.  Too risky.  Loss there could not be survived.  That's how I see it, anyway.  Could be wrong.

Let me butt in, Tony you are getting so close to what I see,  the misinterpretation of the signals, I feel they were so protective of their own feelings,  they couldn't see beyond their own fears.   To read those signals they had to put aside their own egos, and fears and try to understand the other conflict, and doubts. Lets face it they never really did in all the twenty years they were together.   And maybe it was infrequency of their meetings contributed to that.

I may not understand totally what you're trying to say, but like always you have me thinking out of the nice little box I constructed for myself.

[FlwrChild]

Let me butt in, Tony you are getting so close to what I see,  the misinterpretation of the signals, I feel they were so protective of their own feelings,  they couldn't see beyond their own fears.   To read those signals they had to put aside their own egos, and fears and try to understand the other conflict, and doubts. Lets face it they never really did in all the twenty years they were together.   And maybe it was infrequency of their meetings contributed to that.

I may not understand totally what you're trying to say, but like always you have me thinking out of the nice little box I constructed for myself.

Me too, mg. That's what I love about these discussions.


And I agree about their misperceptions, but I think that Jack actually had more of a sense of many of the things that drove Ennis than Ennis understood about Jack. And I actually think it was necessary to maintain the relationship as long as they did under the circumstances they did.

Jack had to know just when he could and couldn't push Ennis. He had to read his mood and calm his skittish impulses. When Ennis told him about Earl, he could see that Ennis couldn't budge at that time (though I think he might have been hoping that would change in time). And he recognized that genuine fear and practical concern for their safety that Ennis was projecting, so that he reached out to comfort him instead of feeling resentment or letting his disappointment make him bitter.

I don't think this made Jack any better within the relationship than Ennis, though, just a little bit more aware on that level. In plenty of other instances, though, his fears and insecurities blinded him to certain signals just as much as Ennis's did. What might they have accomplished if they could have peeked just for a moment into each other's hearts? I guess that's what Ennis was finally able to do when he found the shirts.

[Tony]

When Ennis threw out that remark about "boys like you" though, I took it to mean homosexuals in general and not necessarily just those that are more about sex than love. Even after all those years, he seemed to be fighting the idea that he might be defined within that category as well.

     I do agree entirely, FlowerChild, that Jack was comfortable with himself on his sexuality.  But I find it difficult to believe he saw himself as gay or bi and just in the closet.  He seems to fit a category of sensual males, I had written about in another thread (Ennis & Jack and new sexual theory), and I don't think he had any particular interest in defining himself.  He FELT, rather than labelled or analyzed.  He knew he liked the sex, but he refused to be labelled.
FlowerChild, I also base this on an absurd pattern I have seen, from my neighbood pals, all the way to guys showing up twice a year in gay bars.  They don't think they are gay, because they like sex with women. You'd have to clobber them with the facts to get a concession of being bisexual.  They are generally hidden because they don't fit gay or straight agendas of who's who and what's what.  And I have a slight sense, just slight, that Jack didn't go to Mexico to be gay, but rather, to be WITH gays.  It's a difference I have seen.  But we do agree, he was comfortable with his sexuality - I would just add that his comfort level was sensual and mindless, rather than:  I'm gay and I know it.
   The "boys like you" phrase, I would also have to agree, on the surface, shows Ennis defining Jack (but not himself) as homosexual. But this story is so rich with nuances, I'd tend to think that was a surface level accusation.  Jack DID like sex with women, and Ennis would have known that.  So, on another level, he might have been saying (unfairly): you're more into the sex than I am, and (sorry I have to go there) you like being the receiver.
   I say that because, although he WAS throwing what seemed to be an accusation of homosexuality in Jack's face (and, wow, the absurdities here!), if that was his primary belief, then we have to alter the fundamentals of the story:  Guy who thinks he's straight, in love with a guy he is certain is gay.  That throws a monkey wrench into a lot of things.
  Am over-doing this.  It's all there, as issues, but those two were in such a tangled mess, untangling it is a really long journey.  But, hey, we LIKE the journey, so I'll just try for shorter posts.
  I do agree, on those two exceptions you made, FlowerChild, but they then led to deeper territory.

[FlwrChild]

     I do agree entirely, FlowerChild, that Jack was comfortable with himself on his sexuality.  But I find it difficult to believe he saw himself as gay or bi and just in the closet.  He seems to fit a category of sensual males, I had written about in another thread (Ennis & Jack and new sexual theory), and I don't think he had any particular interest in defining himself.  He FELT, rather than labelled or analyzed.  He knew he liked the sex, but he refused to be labelled.
FlowerChild, I also base this on an absurd pattern I have seen, from my neighbood pals, all the way to guys showing up twice a year in gay bars.  They don't think they are gay, because they like sex with women. You'd have to clobber them with the facts to get a concession of being bisexual.  They are generally hidden because they don't fit gay or straight agendas of who's who and what's what.  And I have a slight sense, just slight, that Jack didn't go to Mexico to be gay, but rather, to be WITH gays.  It's a difference I have seen.  But we do agree, he was comfortable with his sexuality - I would just add that his comfort level was sensual and mindless, rather than:  I'm gay and I know it.
   The "boys like you" phrase, I would also have to agree, on the surface, shows Ennis defining Jack (but not himself) as homosexual. But this story is so rich with nuances, I'd tend to think that was a surface level accusation.  Jack DID like sex with women, and Ennis would have known that.  So, on another level, he might have been saying (unfairly): you're more into the sex than I am, and (sorry I have to go there) you like being the receiver.
   I say that because, although he WAS throwing what seemed to be an accusation of homosexuality in Jack's face (and, wow, the absurdities here!), if that was his primary belief, then we have to alter the fundamentals of the story:  Guy who thinks he's straight, in love with a guy he is certain is gay.  That throws a monkey wrench into a lot of things.
  Am over-doing this.  It's all there, as issues, but those two were in such a tangled mess, untangling it is a really long journey.  But, hey, we LIKE the journey, so I'll just try for shorter posts.
  I do agree, on those two exceptions you made, FlowerChild, but they then led to deeper territory.

Oh Tony, if we had to be limited to short posts, I'd be in trouble!


And I actually agree with what you said about Jack here. I didn't mean to imply that he necessarily identified as being gay, just that he believed it was possible for the two of them to have a sweet life together. So in that sense, what he thought about the rest of society wasn't as relevant as what he envisioned was possible for them. In Ennis's case, what he thought about society very much colored what he imagined was possible for them.

[Tony]

   Dear FlowerChild - yeah, Jack is a little wonky about being indifferent to defining himself.  Hey, maybe he was the ultimately free male, completely past straight and gay males and not judging or labelling anybody.  We never do hear anything from him on the subject except when Ennis says "I'm not queer", Jack goes: "Me, neither."  And after that, he goes wherever he might be loved.  Lureen.  Ennis.  Randall.  Loved, or....wanted.  Jack needed to be wanted.  Definitions meant zero.
  Manhattangirl, something jumped off the screen, from your post.  You hooked up the missed signals with the infrequency of meeting-up.  There's something going on there.  A mistaken perception carried for a few days, can often erode.  Carried for 6 months, can settle in like concrete.
Which brings me to an understanding, that time together is needed to erode a wrong impression.  And it was Jack who said:  "Never enough time..."
Jack may have been saying what you were saying, MG - how can you communicate and adapt and get it right....if you don't see each other much?

[FlwrChild]

I've experienced that in my own life, so I think you guys are onto something there.

[manhattangirl]

   Dear FlowerChild - yeah, Jack is a little wonky about being indifferent to defining himself.  Hey, maybe he was the ultimately free male, completely past straight and gay males and not judging or labelling anybody.  We never do hear anything from him on the subject except when Ennis says "I'm not queer", Jack goes: "Me, neither."  And after that, he goes wherever he might be loved.  Lureen.  Ennis.  Randall.  Loved, or....wanted.  Jack needed to be wanted.  Definitions meant zero.
  Manhattangirl, something jumped off the screen, from your post.  You hooked up the missed signals with the infrequency of meeting-up.  There's something going on there.  A mistaken perception carried for a few days, can often erode.  Carried for 6 months, can settle in like concrete.
Which brings me to an understanding, that time together is needed to erode a wrong impression.  And it was Jack who said:  "Never enough time..."
Jack may have been saying what you were saying, MG - how can you communicate and adapt and get it right....if you don't see each other much?

I wonder too about preceptions when there is "not enough time".   Its so clear with Jack and Ennis that time was what they needed, and didn't have much of.   But who imposed this time limit, what rule, what law said that this was how it's suppose to be.   "Never enough time...."  Neither man understood the power each had to change things, they overlooked the fact they had the power, not to change society, but the ability to change that basic of things,  themselves and their relationship.   The rule became "If you can't fix it, you just have to stand it".

So as they tried to stand it, they began to question the others commitment.   Did Ennis really wandered about Jack's fidelity and love for him, did Jack think it was Ennis who could live like this, a couple of "high altitude f#@ks", once or twice a year and this was the way he wanted it, and not a life with him.   Yes preception was everything.   JMO. 

[Tony]

Neither man understood the power each had to change things, they overlooked the fact they had the power, not to change society, but the ability to change that basic of things,  themselves and their relationship.   The rule became "If you can't fix it, you just have to stand it".

    Well, maybe Jack understood they had some power to change things for themselves, if they would both agree, but he dropped back to feeling powerless to change Ennis into that progressive mode, when Ennis balked. So then they were both stuck, and had to stand it.
    Seems to me, though, that 9/10th of the probing done by us is about Ennis and his insecurities, and so very little probing into Jack's thinking.  Why DID he drop the push to ranch up, instead of waiting for a more opportune moment, or, himself, getting a ranch much closer to Ennis?  He never really seemed to think he COULD push Ennis, ever, on that subject.
  Nobody seems to be a really advanced Jack expert.  LJN has enormous empathy for him.  MG often sees things from Jack's point of view.  Even Aintfoolin was making a move, I thought, some time back, to analyze Jack more closely.  Maybe we all see the complexity in Ennis, but write off Jack as loveable, a powerful force for healing, and faithful, or faithful enough.  I do it myself....take Jack for granted, and his love as a given.  Maybe we should look for even the smallest clues to a more complex Jack.  I tried for that, in challenging the usual take on the Dozy Embrace.  But everybody seems to see Jack as one-dimensional.  Maybe we should try that uncharted territory here, with reference to the topic, and in the other threads, where appropriate. Starting over.

 By the way, Manhattangirl, please forgive me for my habit of starting off a post as: "Dear so-and-so..."  It's just a courtesy and in no way means the discussion is only between me and that person, as that would be very wrong.  All posts, as I understand it, are wide-open to anyone's comments or replies.
Maybe I should drop the habit, but I just thought it made things a little more friendly and less formal.  And, please, anybody who's been reading but feels these are closed conversations, that is not so.  Any and every post is wide open for your reaction, and is very welcome.  And I don't know of anyone who feels any differently.  And change the subject, if you like.  Only the moderators can guide a thread and that is to keep us on-topic.

[manhattangirl]

    Well, maybe Jack understood they had some power to change things for themselves, if they would both agree, but he dropped back to feeling powerless to change Ennis into that progressive mode, when Ennis balked. So then they were both stuck, and had to stand it.
    Seems to me, though, that 9/10th of the probing done by us is about Ennis and his insecurities, and so very little probing into Jack's thinking.  Why DID he drop the push to ranch up, instead of waiting for a more opportune moment, or, himself, getting a ranch much closer to Ennis?  He never really seemed to think he COULD push Ennis, ever, on that subject.
Nobody seems to be a really advanced Jack expert.  LJN has enormous empathy for him.  MG often sees things from Jack's point of view.  Even Aintfoolin was making a move, I thought, some time back, to analyze Jack more closely.  Maybe we all see the complexity in Ennis, but write off Jack as loveable, a powerful force for healing, and faithful, or faithful enough.  I do it myself....take Jack for granted, and his love as a
given.  Maybe we should look for even the smallest clues to a more complex Jack.  I tried for that, in challenging the usual take on the Dozy Embrace.  But everybody seems to see Jack as one-dimensional.  Maybe we should try that uncharted territory here, with reference to the topic, and in the other threads, where appropriate. Starting over.
 By the way, Manhattangirl, you seem shy of posting, when someone is addressing themselves to someone else's reply.  I hope that's not because of my own habit of starting a post with; "Dear so-and-so..."  Any post is open to everyone, as I understand it, and am very sorry if my doing that seems to make a post just between 2 people.  It's just a courtesy, MG, to open a post that way, and any of my own posts are wide open for anyone and everyone to reply or comment.  Maybe I should drop the habit, so as not to shy anyone off.  Either way, anyone should welcome any replies, and I sure do.  Lurkers, please jump in---the threads are wide open and you are welcome, and comments are in no way intruding on any 2 or even 3 people's posts, back and forth.
 

Tony, thank you for that.  Please don't change anything, it's just habit, the posts can have such an intmate feel to them,  I don't want to interupt the flow of the conversation.   So please Tony, don't mind me.

Jack, sometimes I feel even without recognizing it, we are all Jack, the doubts, frustrations, need, disappointments,  the desire, and loving someone so emotionally distant.  We see all of what Jack is going through, we acutely feel his pain in one way or another, so we drawn to Ennis.

I was intrigue by your idea of Jack being a camelion of sorts, adapting sexually, not being bound by labels.  Jack wanted Ennis so he seduced him, Jack wanted Lureen so he let her seduce him.  His trips to Mexico just to be with gays, but not actually being gay himself, so why his own torment?

I've felt that the both Jack and Ennis tried desperately to deal with their sexuality, Jack's wanting to be who he was,and be with his lover.   Ennis trying desperately not to be who he was but couldn't be too long without his lover near him, but only if he could feel the safety of the mountain.   

 Sometimes I feel AP needed Jack to create Ennis, a way for her to even be able to write the complexity of a man like Ennis, culminating with Jack's death for Ennis realization of love, and acceptance.  Jack had to be the one.  The one who was most true to himself, and the most vulnerable, the most human,  so much so even death had to come to him.   I don't think Jack was one dimensional character, Jack was us.   JMO.

 

[Tony]

Sometimes I feel AP needed Jack to create Ennis, a way for her to even be able to write the complexity of a man like Ennis, culminating with Jack's death for Ennis realization of love, and acceptance.  Jack had to be the one.  The one who was most true to himself, and the most vulnerable, the most human,  so much so even death had to come to him.   I don't think Jack was one dimensional character, Jack was us. 

 

    Every now and then, a post breaks through, from someone, that has to be considered one of the best ever written on this forum.  This, IMO, was one of those posts.
     "Sometimes I feel AP needed Jack to create Ennis...." . Yes, the ultimate lover for the wayward, lost soul.
     "Jack was us."  He was, indeed.  We would never be here if we weren't, ourselves, wanting to love.  But following through, if we started as Jack, we did also maybe find in ourselves the other, Ennis, as, if we are truly honest, we too are still struggling to be free.  We found, in both, the tensions in our own lives. But, before that, before becoming ensnared in this love story, we began as Jack.
    Yes. Jack WAS us.  And still is.  Still loving Ennis, too.
                                Thanks, Manhattangirl.  The whole thread was worth it for this one post.

   

[FlwrChild]

I think that was incredibly well said too. And I have never felt that Jack was one dimensional either. I am, or at least see myself as, very much a Jack personality, so your beautifully put "Jack was us" hits me straight in the heart.

I have more thoughts on some of Tony's questions about why Jack didn't push more, or move closer to Ennis, etc. I'll have to try to collect them and come back when I can express them coherently.

[tpe]

     I do agree entirely, FlowerChild, that Jack was comfortable with himself on his sexuality.  But I find it difficult to believe he saw himself as gay or bi and just in the closet.  He seems to fit a category of sensual males, I had written about in another thread (Ennis & Jack and new sexual theory), and I don't think he had any particular interest in defining himself.  He FELT, rather than labelled or analyzed.  He knew he liked the sex, but he refused to be labelled.

Whether I agree with this or not is beside the point.  I do find this rather interesting.  I think I do get what you mean here, and I think I do tend to think that Jack was perhaps not so interested in defining himself..  Jack was indedd a sensual, more feeling type of individual, and it permeates his friendship and later love for Ennis on many levels.  He has the need to feel, to smell, and to touch.  You can cite examples for each of the senses. 

[aintfoolin]

Tony, thank you for that.  Please don't change anything, it's just habit, the posts can have such an intmate feel to them,  I don't want to interupt the flow of the conversation.   So please Tony, don't mind me.

Jack, sometimes I feel even without recognizing it, we are all Jack, the doubts, frustrations, need, disappointments,  the desire, and loving someone so emotionally distant.  We see all of what Jack is going through, we acutely feel his pain in one way or another, so we drawn to Ennis.

I was intrigue by your idea of Jack being a camelion of sorts, adapting sexually, not being bound by labels.  Jack wanted Ennis so he seduced him, Jack wanted Lureen so he let her seduce him.  His trips to Mexico just to be with gays, but not actually being gay himself, so why his own torment?

I've felt that the both Jack and Ennis tried desperately to deal with their sexuality, Jack's wanting to be who he was,and be with his lover.   Ennis trying desperately not to be who he was but couldn't be too long without his lover near him, but only if he could feel the safety of the mountain.   

 Sometimes I feel AP needed Jack to create Ennis, a way for her to even be able to write the complexity of a man like Ennis, culminating with Jack's death for Ennis realization of love, and acceptance.  Jack had to be the one.  The one who was most true to himself, and the most vulnerable, the most human,  so much so even death had to come to him.   I don't think Jack was one dimensional character, Jack was us.   JMO.

 

Beautifully said MG.and right on the money. Jack was us and we are him in many ways.

 I've always looked at Jack as some one who's searching, looking for that one thing  or person in his life that was concrete, solid, lasting. In many ways Jack is just as complex as Ennis. He loved Ennis, yes but he also felt a  serious responsibility in his love for him. loving Ennis presentd him with an enormous challenge and I think he liked that part too.
 He was the one who reached out and  planted the seed in Ennis and nurtured it. He was the the one who *introduced* the idea that 2 people who happen to be men, can love not only thru friendship,( simply love for a  good friend or  buddy like companion ), but pass that over into a *romantic love*  a protective need, a longing for one person and have no problem expressing it. He knew Ennis was the ONE.  After Brokeback, no rodeo clown, Lureen or any other woman ( though he did enjoy their company ), was gonna last the test of time for him.

 What he felt for Ennis was worth building upon, worth keeping.  In turn, Ennis showed him an *emotional stamina "to rival his own .  Different in the way they percieved their love , but the same intensity.. They were both taken  by this love, again ,equal in it's strenghth for both of them. One with equal power over the other, yet wielded differently within the relationship. I think Jack's power lay within his acceptance of himself, who he was and he knew what ,where, who ,and how he wanted his life  to be. He always had a plan. Some worked, some did'nt, but there was always Ennis Del Mar, the stable rock in his life in terms of how Ennis seated  himself in Jack''s life.. He showed up, and continued to show up.  Sort of a commitment, but not quite. after 4 yrs, wives and kids, this man still wanted him. He's convinced this love is the real deal.  Again, Jack's power is Ennis's need for him. It is the one thing he did'nt have to work at getting Ennis to do. Ennis has shown him on more than one occaission that he is capable of love and perhaps ...change, signaling to Jack that there still was hope. Jack knew Ennis needed him, but his insistence is the driving force behind the relationship cuz let's face it, Ennis was'nt gonna leave Riverton, drive hundreds of thousands of miles  every year for a few moments of bliss in Childress with Jack, but everytime Ennis showed up , to Jack, that meant he was wanted, and worthy of love.  Saw it as one more step closer to a stable lasting sweet life  with Ennis.
Yes, worthy, cuz I feel he has an esteem problem as well. I mean he had to feel that Ennis was *hiding* him .  Perhaps  afraid that his girls would tell Alma, they saw Jack Twist at "daddy's" house, during a court- ordered visit after the divorce... That Ennis felt shame of him and their affair, at the same time though, Jack  still felt  he could work with this. He had Ennis coming to him, meeting him, like clockwork when the times came. Was friend, lover and companion  in these meetings. Ennis was there with him.  it seemed they were a long way from " I aint queer",.."Me niether" ...but were they really?

Anyway, getting back on topic, perceptions are tricky when there's "not enough time", Minds wander, as well as hearts. The one Jack loves and really wants is not there for him.  Frankly,  I think Jack liked sex and made no apologies  for that , he needed and wanted it more than Ennis.  The whole distance thing posed a huge problem in my opinion.  There's Randall and  hustlers,  encounters Jack had at moments when hope is dim, he cheated .  Why? because again he finds himself searching.  Avoiding rejection, searching  for  comfort, validity, and acceptance, vulnerable to others who could provide to him what Ennis could'nt. An openess to who they are, others, unafraid to take a free shot at a whole life, right or wrong, good or bad,  like himself.  How could Jack get what he "hardly ever gets" from Ennis if he's in Texas and Ennis in Wyoming? now don't get me wrong, sex was not the only thing suffering here , but it's important to Jack, he needed that,  but he needed more time together to try and convince Ennis that being together more means growth, means growing comfortable enough to *talk* , to show vulnerability , discuss  likes and limits, fears,boundaries and expectations and most of all get to the root of the problem without making each other feel that their fears will be judged or their vulnerabilities attacked. It does'nt make sense to him givin all that Ennis does do, that he can't get Ennis to take that last leap to a whole life ,  not just sometimes, but permanently.

Jack had fears too. Fears that stood in the way of him expressing his concerns and pressing his point. If he got too close, hit to close to home, Ennis would bolt and he'd loose him forever. After all "boys like you" are different from boys like him. Even at that late date.  In any case, Jack got tired of backing down. He was who he was and liked what he liked.  He could've lied about Mexico, givin their disposition, but he wanted Ennis see that he was not proud of what he'd done but of who he is. It's a good thing that Jack maintained his composure at this point cuz Ennis was either seperating himself from Jack in terms of sexuality, or just bein an ass , maybe both. Anyway I think it contributed to part of the last straw for Jack in the confrontation scene. I know Ennis was jeaulous , but... comon now....The only thing it resulted in was dragging himself and Jack over into unspoken, unknown territory he could'nt handle.  It just got too personal trying to demean Jack's integrity, and vulnerabilities , like L.D. he tried to corner Jack, and Jack came out fighting.  He never defined himself really, but did'nt let others do it either. These moments, I loved him the most.    My take.

[Tony]

  Frankly,  I think Jack liked sex and made no apologies  for that , he needed and wanted it more than Ennis.  The whole distance thing posed a huge problem in my opinion.  There's Randall and  hustlers,  encounters Jack had at moments when hope is dim, he cheated .  Why? because again he finds himself searching.  Avoiding rejection, searching  for  comfort, validity, and acceptance, vulnerable to others who could provide to him what Ennis could'nt.

    Have to say, people do get different things out of sex, and I see in the quote above, the suggestion, maybe, that Jack needed sex as a form of acceptance, as much as for lust-relief.  Acceptance and validation that he is a real person, not a throw-away.  Tracing back to FNIT, it always seemed to me that Jack wanted to sexually compromise Ennis to force Ennis to admit Jack was real, and the closeness between them real.  Or that at least that played some part of it.
   Ennis seemed to have different sexual modes, including routine, but also (SNIT and from then on, with Jack only) dropping the walls of loneliness completely.  I doubt he ever did that with Alma or Cassie.  But Jack?  Sex with Jack meant....you accepted him.  As a real person.  Maybe he'd never been treated as a real person by anyone but his mother.  Everybody else seemed to shoo him off.  Even Lureen, after she had the baby her father required her to have, for carrying on the family name.  Jack may well have equated sex with being of value to someone.  It's a possibility.

[manhattangirl]

Can we find out even more about Jack from how he had changed Ennis.   Who was this man, that could make Ennis write soup on a shopping list, and lie about being sick of beans?  Why did Ennis volunteer to go out and stay with the sheep, or break the law and shoot an elk, or chose to stay in camp with him and not do his job that night.  Jack set Ennis free so much so that he felt he could paw the moon.   

What I'm getting at is that shouldn't we wonder what was it about Jack that made Ennis do the unthinkable, to be so drawn to him that FNIT happened, knowing that just what he was doing was dangerous but did it anyway and that it didn't matter, he wanted Jack.  Honestly, can we really blame it on drunkeness,  after all Ennis knew what happened to "boys like you".   

Jack uncoil the the knot that was Ennis physically and emotionally who was this guy, and how did he do it? 

[tpe]

Can we find out even more about Jack from how he had changed Ennis.   Who was this man, that could make Ennis write soup on a shopping list, and lie about being sick of beans?  Why did Ennis volunteer to go out and stay with the sheep, or break the law and shoot an elk, or chose to stay in camp with him and not do his job that night.  Jack set Ennis free so much so that he felt he could paw the moon.   

What I'm getting at is that shouldn't we wonder what was it about Jack that made Ennis do the unthinkable, to be so drawn to him that FNIT happened, knowing that just what he was doing was dangerous but did it anyway and that it didn't matter, he wanted Jack.  Honestly, can we really blame it on drunkeness,  after all Ennis knew what happened to "boys like you".   

Jack uncoil the the knot that was Ennis physically and emotionally who was this guy, and how did he do it? 

I think their friendship and liking for each other was based on a feeling of connection -- a connection borne out by a sense of shared loneliness.  Both of them had lonely childhoods, and both of them lacked a strong sense of belonging, especially with their families.   They felt that something about them made them outsiders.  What made Ennis appreciate Jack so much was not just his openness to listen to Ennis; Ennis appreciated that Jack understood Ennis's feelings of loneliness from first-hand experience.  He understood that for all their differences, they belonged to the same world.

[lancecowboy]

Can we find out even more about Jack from how he had changed Ennis.   Who was this man, that could make Ennis write soup on a shopping list, and lie about being sick of beans?  Why did Ennis volunteer to go out and stay with the sheep, or break the law and shoot an elk, or chose to stay in camp with him and not do his job that night.  Jack set Ennis free so much so that he felt he could paw the moon.   

What I'm getting at is that shouldn't we wonder what was it about Jack that made Ennis do the unthinkable, to be so drawn to him that FNIT happened, knowing that just what he was doing was dangerous but did it anyway and that it didn't matter, he wanted Jack.  Honestly, can we really blame it on drunkeness,  after all Ennis knew what happened to "boys like you".   

Jack uncoil the the knot that was Ennis physically and emotionally who was this guy, and how did he do it? 

Okay, I am hiding behind a rock before writing this, because I know the rocks you all are going to throw at me for saying this. Sorry, Matt, LJN.

I understand and appreciate everyone's love for Jack, but at the same time, I think it is a combination of timing, circumstance and needs. Ennis was ready to open up that summer of '63. He was so ready to find someone, anyone, that he even got engaged to be married. He was genuinely happy on his honeymoon with Alma, that first winter.

As Annie Proulx said in the short story, and in her interviews, Brokeback Mountain is a special setting, like the Eden you all spoke of earlier, when the two lonely young men can be away from the rest of the cold cruel world, and find in each other acceptance, friendship, sex, and love. They did not go out to find gay sex. Well, perhaps Jack did. Perhaps that is what is special about Jack. This precocious awareness of his own sexuality. He never hid any of it. He was the opposite of Ennis, who hid everything.

Jack's bravado, boosting, banter during the day all point to the extrovert that was the opposite of Ennis the introvert. What made Jack special was his willingness to step up, to be out there, and invited Ennis to come out from his Fortress, to play, to live, to love.

What made the two of them special, was the loyalty they shared, even after twenty years. Jack might have gone off to Mexico that one time after being heartbroken after the divorce scene. He might have been tempted by Randall, but he could't quit Ennis even if he were to want to, which he never did.

[Tony]

As Annie Proulx said in the short story, and in her interviews, Brokeback Mountain is a special setting, like the Eden you all spoke of earlier, when the two lonely young men can be away from the rest of the cold cruel world, and find in each other acceptance, friendship, sex, and love. They did not go out to find gay sex. Well, perhaps Jack did. Perhaps that is what is special about Jack. This precocious awareness of his own sexuality. He never hid any of it. He was the opposite of Ennis, who hid everything.

    Am sure they didn't sign up for the job to find friendship, but they did find the truest friend in their lives.  And they really didn't go up there looking for sex.
Some want to suppose Jack did, but, if that is true, he sure took a long time "cruising".  Never made suggestive physical contact nor verbal probing.  Nothing, until FNIT.  By then, though, they were both past friendship and into the danger zone of friendship love, and, IMO, Jack's making a move was spontaneous, and not pre-planned, and may even have been egged on subliminally, by Ennis.   No, they weren't looking for gay sex, and, at the risk of explosions from the peanut gallery, never did find gay sex.  Not as we understand that, today.  They found a sexual relationship that expressed their need for each other, and not a need for men in general.  That Jack went past that, to other men, was IMO, not a gay need, but a substitution for Ennis.  Am sorry, but I still see their relationship on the outskirts of what we think of as Gay.  I still think the unexpected, explosive love created the sex.  Label all you want afterwards, as you please, but I don't see the before.  The love, and the falling into sex may have transformed them, but I do not see them as pre-primed for gay sex.  IMO, they were pre-primed for finding each other, and no one else.

[FlwrChild]

Ok, I'm going to pick and choose the pieces I liked best about those last two posts.

And Andrew, I would never throw stones at you, but I will disagree a little bit. I acknowledge that the time and setting of where and how they met were crucial to their being able to develop the relationship they did. But not that it was the sole, or even overriding factor. Because, like Tony, I believe that they were meant to love each other. Jack would not have come down that mountain in love with whoever he happened to meet there, even if that person had a similar background and understood his needs and experiences. Nor would Ennis, no matter how much they tried to draw him out or entertain him. Those elements were necessary for them to be able to form a bond of friendship and love, but those elements did not create that love. 

And I don't see Ennis as being ready to open up to someone, anyone. I see him opening up precisely because it was Jack he met that summer. Because they had between them that indefinable something that makes the difference between enjoyable friendships and enduring and deepseated love. Whatever logical reasons we come up with to explain how and why they ended up together, we can't ignore the intangible factor.

As to whether they were gay or not, I don't think it's relevant enough to this discussion for me to throw in my two cents. Because, as I said, I agree that whatever their orientation might have been, they were, in the end, primed primarily for each other.

And manhattangirl, I loved your post. Food for thought.

[lancecowboy]

Okay, FlwrChild, Tony, I will admit it when I am wrong, and I am wrong on one thing - to suggest that Ennis and Jack would fall in love with anyone else. 

I think what FlwrChild said, the intangible factor, is precisely what is keeping us from defining what is so difficult - what makes these two seemingly straight and normal cowboy do the most unexpected. We have defined some of the tangible factors such as the setting, their friendship growing out of working together, their background as lonesome cowboys, their mutual respect over the course of the summer, their complementary personalities, and perhaps, even their physical attraction. But what are the intangible factors? Are they significant compared to the tangible ones? Are they critical to their relationship? What does Jack contribute to the relationship? What does Ennis bring to the table?

  I don't pretend to know the answers. And frankly, my dear, I have given up trying to define it, because I have learned, while trying to define my own Brokeback Mountain, that sometimes, some questions just don't have logical answers. They may have intuitive answers, that I can feel in my gut, but not articulate. So I learn to accept them. It's hard to do sometimes, and it's why I rejoice so much, when by chance I meet others who also share the same intuitive feelings for those answers.

I learn so much being here, lurking and reading what you all say. 

[FlwrChild]

  I don't pretend to know the answers. And frankly, my dear, I have given up trying to define it, because I have learned, while trying to define my own Brokeback Mountain, that sometimes, some questions just don't have logical answers. They may have intuitive answers, that I can feel in my gut, but not articulate. So I learn to accept them. It's hard to do sometimes, and it's why I rejoice so much, when by chance I meet others who also share the same intuitive feelings for those answers.

I learn so much being here, lurking and reading what you all say. 

Exactly. And it's those qualities that we can recognize, but never fully illustrate, that complete the picture of Ennis and Jack.


And yes, by the way, I think that the intangible factors are significant compared to the tangibles, and are critical to the relationship. Because, in the end, you can't take away the human factor and that is always the hardest to define or pin down. It's the beautiful mystery in any relationship. And in the case of Jack and Ennis, for whatever reasons, we find their particular human aura to be very compelling indeed.

[aintfoolin]

    Am sure they didn't sign up for the job to find friendship, but they did find the truest friend in their lives.  And they really didn't go up there looking for sex.
Some want to suppose Jack did, but, if that is true, he sure took a long time "cruising".  Never made suggestive physical contact nor verbal probing.  Nothing, until FNIT.  By then, though, they were both past friendship and into the danger zone of friendship love, and, IMO, Jack's making a move was spontaneous, and not pre-planned, and may even have been egged on subliminally, by Ennis.   No, they weren't looking for gay sex, and, at the risk of explosions from the peanut gallery, never did find gay sex.  Not as we understand that, today.  They found a sexual relationship that expressed their need for each other, and not a need for men in general.  That Jack went past that, to other men, was IMO, not a gay need, but a substitution for Ennis.  Am sorry, but I still see their relationship on the outskirts of what we think of as Gay.  I still think the unexpected, explosive love created the sex.  Label all you want afterwards, as you please, but I don't see the before.  The love, and the falling into sex may have transformed them, but I do not see them as pre-primed for gay sex.  IMO, they were pre-primed for finding each other, and no one else.

 Tony,

 I started to post last night about something you brought up concerning Jack's finding sexual *substitutes * for Ennis, not because he's gay, but because he could not have Ennis at the time . Do you, or  anyone else feel that in the confrontation when Jack says " Hell yeah I been to Mexico, is that a f-ckin problem?" that he was perhaps, just maybe, *outing* himself to Ennis right then and there? sayin to Ennis that he likes sex with men, sought out only men? preferred men ?  He'd appreciate it if he could have it with Ennis more if he could? That Jack was saying whatever "gay" meant to him,  (Jack  never verbally defined himself or said out loud, (" I feel I'm gay"), but he was saying he was, who he was ?, needs sex with men? It was said in response to Ennis's "boys like you" statement. Ennis was really saying that just because Jack went to Mexico was because in Ennis's mind "queers" are weaker than "boys like him"? when it comes to sex?, and Jack responds this way?
Of course if this is true, Ennis certainly has a big problem with it. It would mean , since he's sexually involved with a man too, that it would be hitting a little too close to home for Ennis.
 The fact that Jack is so daring pointing out  that after all this time, Ennis still sees himself differently than Jack? Is Jack saying  that , though Ennis would never admit it,  Ennis aint so different from him. Perhaps pointing out the audacity of Ennis? Jack was most definitly a man , and Ennis WAS having sex with him? and had been for 20 yrs minus four.

I alluded to this in the thread called How Did Ennis and Jack Really See Each Other,? I asked then, How did Ennis see Jack? Did he think/feel Jack was gay? How does he justify or rationalize his love and need for Jack in relation to himself? Certainly, he does'nt just close his eyes and pretend Jack is'nt a man during sex, so how can he say he says " I aint queer" the morning after FNIT ,  a sexual act Jack had initiated, he does it again with "boys like you" in the confrontation scenes concerning Mexico, another direct  statement alluding to  to Jack's sex life.... Please, I'm just askin?..
From the peanut gallery if you will.

[manhattangirl]

I love these posts, and I agree, it goes far beyond whether they were straight or not, what draws someone to someone else.  Ennis knew about boys like Jack, he was already programmed, warned, shown the outcome of men like this, but that didn't stop him taking Jack that first night.  Jack plugged into every need Ennis unknowingly had.  Ennis was searching only to make a buck,  and he wasn't on "Spring Break", and he wasn't looking for his counterpart, or to be in love with someone for the rest of his life. When he thought his life was already planned out Jack put a monkey wrench in the whole thing.    

 Neither do I think Jack was looking for a hookup that summer either,  Jack was a "rolling stone", happy to be anywhere but Lighting Flats.   All he wanted was a ranch of his own, not answer to anyone but himself, he was the most truest of the independent spirit, more so than Ennis.  Like many of the men in those days, he found someone, and he wanted settle down and give and share that life, and he wanted to it with Ennis.

IMO none of this planned, but an ironic twist of fate.

 

[tpe]

***

 The fact that Jack is so daring pointing out  that after all this time, Ennis still sees himself differently than Jack? Is Jack saying  that , though Ennis would never admit it,  Ennis aint so different from him. Perhaps pointing out the audacity of Ennis? Jack was most definitly a man , and Ennis WAS having sex with him? and had been for 20 yrs minus four.

I alluded to this in the thread called How Did Ennis and Jack Really See Each Other,? I asked then, How did Ennis see Jack? Did he think/feel Jack was gay? How does he justify or rationalize his love and need for Jack in relation to himself? Certainly, he does'nt just close his eyes and pretend Jack is'nt a man during sex, so how can he say he says " I aint queer" the morning after FNIT ,  a sexual act Jack had initiated, he does it again with "boys like you" in the confrontation scenes concerning Mexico, another direct  statement alluding to  to Jack's sex life.... Please, I'm just askin?..
From the peanut gallery if you will.

While not trying to get into the whole subject of sexual orientation, I would say that this shows some degree of denial on Ennis's part to recognize an important aspect of their relationship.  Friendship is fin and sex is fine, but to Ennis had a hard time admiting to himself that it was another man whom he truly loved. 

Jack daring Ennis to say anything about his Mexico trips shows that he was trying to force the issue then, IMO.  Yes, I also believe that  in an oblique way, Jack was forcing Ennis to confront the situation and acknowledge that they were not that different in this regard.

Let me repeat it here: I think it was the love part in the relationship that caused Ennis to do a lot of soul-searching.  In a way, he was always conflicted in the knowledge that it was Jack whom he truly loved above everyone else.  The denials were part of a rationalization process, IMO.  It deflected the issue to another person, by making the other person a sort of scape-goat.  "It's because of you that I'm like this" partly reflects this deep-seated insecurity.  It only begins to life after Jack's death, for reasons that I think are very Buddhist in conception...

[aintfoolin]

I love these posts, and I agree, it goes far beyond whether they were straight or not, what draws someone to someone else.  Ennis knew about boys like Jack, he was already programmed, warned, shown the outcome of men like this, but that didn't stop him taking Jack that first night.  Jack plugged into every need Ennis unknowingly had, Ennis was searching only to make a buck,  and he wasn't on "Spring Break", and he wasn't looking for his counterpart, or to be in love with someone for the rest of his life, when he thought his life was already planned out Jack put a monkey wrench in the whole thing.    

 Neither do I think Jack was looking for a hookup that summer either,  Jack was a "rolling stone", happy to be anywhere but Lighting Flats.   All he wanted was a ranch of his own, not answer to anyone but himself, he was the most truest of the independent spirit, more so than Ennis.  Like many of the men in those days, he found someone, and he wanted settle down and give and share that life, and he wanted to it with Ennis.

IMO none of this planned, but an ironic twist of fate.

 

 I agree , none of this was planned. Jack had worked the previous summer and there's no indication that he had a co-worker. This time Aguirre wanted two guys. A herder, And a camp tender.  Enter Ennis Del Mar...did'nt talk, appeared anti-social until Jack found a way to draw him out. When he did that ,Jack was drawn into Ennis's life. The quiet cowboy had alot to show him and talk about. He was human after all, but a challenge. They were opposites in many ways , but still found a balance with Jack's spicey charm against Ennis's quiet reserve. I feel it was a big part of the  attraction.. Culture also played a big part imo , they could both understand rodeos, ranch work, hunting, fishing etc. Strict, distant fathers and loving moms. Both had grown up hard , had to grow up fast. Become men on their own and both had experienced major rejections. These profound commonalities drew them to each other as friends. This friendship evolved into an unconsious * friendship love, a very strong like for each other in a short amount of time on the Mt.. Beyond this point, I don't know what sparked it over into *romantic love* but there were prolonged stares and body language , something was happening.

 How they took the leap to romantic love is still a mystery to me, although many threads have explored it. How did Jack know it was time to make his move on Ennis? I'll admit, I go back and forth on this, but it did seem that Jack felt or new something about Ennis and seemed to figure  after some time had passed that Ennis's actions toward him on the Mt. were to be  read as signals that Ennis was feeling the same as him. Was it really spontaneous on Jack's part? Or did he read Ennis's smiles, eye contact and downright flirting at times as a desire to explore these feelings deeper?  With a little liquid courage from Old Rose, Jack makes a move on him, Ennis acts like he does'nt have a clue...at first, but well ,...we all know what happened. No further prompting or manuals needed.

Thanks tpe,  Well..I don't know nothin about Buddism, but I totally agree with what you've said about  Ennis deflecting the issue off himself and onto Jack. Jack wanted to know what the problem was after so much time. I have said before that although Ennis had a problem admitting to himself that it was a man he loved, to Jack it  had to seem that Ennis was capable of loving him. He had all the signs and proof he needed to believe it. If he could love, what could he fear? Just imagine Jack's frustration. He loved Ennis and knew Ennis loved him, but how amazing the lengths Ennis goes to deny it. Making Jack a scape-goat for his own fears.

[FlwrChild]

Tony,

 I started to post last night about something you brought up concerning Jack's finding sexual *substitutes * for Ennis, not because he's gay, but because he could not have Ennis at the time . Do you, or  anyone else feel that in the confrontation when Jack says " Hell yeah I been to Mexico, is that a f-ckin problem?" that he was perhaps, just maybe, *outing* himself to Ennis right then and there? sayin to Ennis that he likes sex with men, sought out only men? preferred men ?  He'd appreciate it if he could have it with Ennis more if he could? That Jack was saying whatever "gay" meant to him,  (Jack  never verbally defined himself or said out loud, (" I feel I'm gay"), but he was saying he was, who he was ?, needs sex with men? It was said in response to Ennis's "boys like you" statement. Ennis was really saying that just because Jack went to Mexico was because in Ennis's mind "queers" are weaker than "boys like him"? when it comes to sex?, and Jack responds this way?
Of course if this is true, Ennis certainly has a big problem with it. It would mean , since he's sexually involved with a man too, that it would be hitting a little too close to home for Ennis.
 The fact that Jack is so daring pointing out  that after all this time, Ennis still sees himself differently than Jack? Is Jack saying  that , though Ennis would never admit it,  Ennis aint so different from him. Perhaps pointing out the audacity of Ennis? Jack was most definitly a man , and Ennis WAS having sex with him? and had been for 20 yrs minus four.

I alluded to this in the thread called How Did Ennis and Jack Really See Each Other,? I asked then, How did Ennis see Jack? Did he think/feel Jack was gay? How does he justify or rationalize his love and need for Jack in relation to himself? Certainly, he does'nt just close his eyes and pretend Jack is'nt a man during sex, so how can he say he says " I aint queer" the morning after FNIT ,  a sexual act Jack had initiated, he does it again with "boys like you" in the confrontation scenes concerning Mexico, another direct  statement alluding to  to Jack's sex life.... Please, I'm just askin?..
From the peanut gallery if you will.

Without opening up a whole new can of worms, because I know there are a lot of people with a lot of different takes on this, I'll just say that yes, this is exactly how I see things. And you said it better than I possibly could have.


I also thought that Heath summed up Ennis's problem well when he said that Ennis "was a homophobic man in love with another man."


There is just all sorts of denial tied up in a predicament like that.