Topic: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?

[lancecowboy]

    Dear Thomas - I didn't know there was a new version of "Brideshead Revisited" but do, very much, think explorations of this, and the films Andrew brought up, all do return to the balancing act of friendship, sex, and love and are a great way to revisit Jack and Ennis and what was really going on there.
   "Brideshead" is kind of dangerous territory, though.  It was a breakthrough for gays, dazzling with the background of the British aristocracy, just as BBM dazzled with the raw, innocent beauty of the (allegedly) American West.  Waugh's central theme (as a Catholic convert) was that no matter what level of debauchery a person fell into, the fishing line of God would always find them and reel them back in.  In a way, the ending, where the agnostic Charles repeats the lines of an ancient prayer, giving in and finally believing, corelates very much to the ending of BBM, where Ennis also gives in, and believes in Jack's love and his prayer was: "Jack, I swear..."  They both end up believing in something greater after interplay with a very lively foil.
  In "Brideshead", there is a life-altering friendship, but am not sure I see any romantic love, and you have it so very right, the sex was left very much unknown. But what exactly do you mean, Charles was an opportunistic straight?  A social climber?  Thomas, what a phrase!
  Andrew's movies seem to be less dangerous territory for going off-topic.  But he is a bloodhound, heavily tracking the trail, and I think he's found it in a way that is useful to understanding Ennis and Jack, not to mention these very important implications in each person's real life.
  So far, am having trouble keeping up, so will finish by saying that, despite the desire shown in the SS, I tend to believe Ennis had found a friendship so very tailored to his jagged personality, that it advanced to romantic love.  He did get into the sex, big-time, but of the three elements, he could and did put sex as last. And he expressed himself in the language of faithfulness, year by year.  Jack spoke a different language, and as a more sensual person, needed sex and companionship to express what still was the most profund element for him, too, the love.  That's about all I can make of it.
  I notice the moderators have been tolerant, so, if comparing and contrasting are allowed to continue, it's something where I have little to offer, but would enjoy reading.
  Opportunistic straight?  Am still bogged down in that.  Thanks a lot, Thomas.

Well, I am tempted to delete my last post, since I obviously was totally wrong. The movie sounds very interesting and profound. Your description, where I highlighted, sounds remarkably similar to the friendship in Four Feathers between Harry and Abou. I will have to find time to watch the movie.

O, I am  definitely a bit of a blood-hound obsessed, sometimes. But this trail has turned up many interesting rewards already, and I think the latest discoveries can be the end of this hound dog's hunt for deeper meanings. I am happy and content with Ennis and Jack, Lucas and Martin, Mark and Andrew, Aaron and Chris and of course, Zach and Shaun. I love happy endings. 

[tpe]

Lance, I am glad you didn't delete your previous post.

The relationship between Ennis and Jack is so different from that of Charles and Sebastian in Brideshead.  But I think it is useful to compare and contrast them to bring the former relationship into sharper focus, especially in the matter of love, friendship, and sex.

The latter relationship is much much more ambiguous.  In the book itself, there is hardly any explicit statement of homosexuality when it comes to the relationship between Sebastian and Charles.  "Romantic attachment" is what is used to describe it.  In the case of Ennis and Jack, I don't think it was as ambiguous as that.  What critics didn't like about the new Brideshead was that it portrayed Sebastian as someone closer to our conception of a homosexual, although the book does imply something fo this sort in the end (albeit never explicit) and that Charles was more in love with the idea of Brideshead rather than with Sebastian (and later with Julia) and used that love to further his own idea.    Sex with Sebastian was not a part of that, it would seem (although kissing was), and there is a pivotal scene in the movie when Charles publicly rebuffs Sebastian when he begins an attempt (?) of a kiss.

There is no such equivalent in BBM, either in the ss or the film.  There is no such finesse. 

But I do think that the element of personal searching (in matters of love and friendship, if not sex) informs both E & J and C and S.   In this one element, I think they are rather similar.  Charles in the movie questions himself and is challenged by others  as to the underlying motivations of his friendship and love.  Ennis, to a great extent questions and refuses to acknowledge his own deep seated motivations.  I am not saying that Ryder or Ennis are similar -- they are vastly different.  It is just interesting to me how a question of identity (vis-a-vis love and friendship) is central to both of these characters. 

[manhattangirl]

I've always thought that Charles relationship with Julia was in part that in his eyes she was a female version of her brother, so was drawn to her.  His relationship with Sebastian was that of childhood love and grew out of it, where Sebastian never did, and couldn't.   (does this make sense?)

Jack and Ennis was that of romantic love and pure sex.  I don't think Ennis was any less sexual than Jack.  Ennis was sexual, wanting it,  responding to it, but in fear of it, what it does to him, what Jack presence does to him, it makes him forget who they are, where they are.

 It was the reunion, that kiss, and that need, that Ennis began to understand that "hey this could get us killed, but damn, I can't let it get away, got to hold on".   It was was also just that pressure that caused him to break at the end.   JMO.



   

[tpe]

I've always thought that Charles relationship with Julia was in part that in his eyes she was a female version of her brother, so was drawn to her.  His relationship with Sebastian was that of childhood love and grew out of it, where Sebastian never did, and couldn't.   (does this make sense?)

Most commentators agree with you about Julia.  What draws him to her inevitably is the image of Sebastian.  The novel does not show him indicating any interest until the trip back to the UK by boat.

I don't think there is an equivalence here with Ennis and Jack, although both of them do try to find surrogates for each other -- firest, their wives, and then casual partners (in the case of Jack.)

Jack and Ennis was that of romantic love and pure sex.  I don't think Ennis was any less sexual than Jack.  Ennis was sexual, wanting it,  responding to it, but in fear of it, what it does to him, what Jack presence does to him, it makes him forget who they are, where they are.

 It was the reunion, that kiss, and that need, that Ennis began to understand that "hey this could get us killed, but damn, I can't let it get away, got to hold on".   It was was also just that pressure that caused him to break at the end.   JMO.
   

I think this is where the main difference with Ennis and Jack lies: the sex.  And I agree that both of them were very sexual.  In this sense, they go much further than Charles and Sebastian, whose love is indeed sensual, but perhaps not that physical.

[Tony]

    The appearance of "Brideshead" on this thread was, for me, like tossing a pork chop in front of a hungry dog, so I have to keep careful, to stay on-topic.
    Anyway, I think in any serious relationship between 2 people, an additional entity is created.  Say Ennis is X, Jack is Y, but their relationship is XY.
There's three things going on, when two people hook up.  The individuals and then the created partnership, greater than the sum of X + Y, and so therefore a newly born life force.
   In both "Brideshead" and BBM, the focus is on a character who seems deadened to life (curiously, both having non-loving fathers) who then meets up with what welshwitch might call a carrnivalesque life force that mesmerizes them.  For Charles, it is Sebastion.  For Ennis it is Jack.
  Discussing the levels of friendship, sex and love between Charles and Sebastion would have me in trouble, again, for noting....the British are different.
But there definitely was an XY in "Brideshead", at least for Charles. Sebastion was so bonked out, we would never know. And, of course, the XY in BBM is why we are here, not for Ennis OR Jack, but for the XY, the great love bigger than both of them.
  And here is where "Brideshead" and BBM are identical - through the relationship that troubles the deadened souls (Charles and Ennis), challenging them, they both end up.....redeemed, in the sense of seeing something more to life and the end of meaninglessness.  They are both anti-existentialist.
(Existentialism is the very pervasive philosophy that there is no meaning to life; it is closely related to Marxist materialism, and Western consumer life styles).  Friendship, love, and sex are more than soap opera entertainment or a promotion of gay liberation - they are instruments of redemption.
  Waugh, however, has his agnostic hero accept, if not the Catholic faith, the over-all concept of belief in God, and shows that in a highly lyrical passsage at the end.  Transformation has occurred. Annie has, of course, a similar lyrical ending, with a clear transformation.  Ennis believes he was loved and can love.  Something greater than himself exists.
  Relationships then, in these two works, are something past daytime television.  They move, inexorably towards a transforming belief.

P.S.  I can't let this pass.  I just can't.  Loss of loved ones and the mindless tragedies of life, all too easily lead those who grieve into s sense of life having no meaning.  The loss points to the abyss of despair.  Waugh and Annie Proulx both have tragedy unmasking a force greater than the individual - love, and therefore defying the abyss.  Charles and Ennis are broken men, but better broken, than what they were before.....empty.

[tpe]

Very wonderful comparison, Tony!  You are so right that a relationship is greater than the sum of its parts!

And your discussion of redemption in the end does make sense to me.  I think in BBM, we do get that same lyrical progression (albeit tragic, as one can argue is the same in Brideshead), and that transformation through love (so Wagnerian a concept) and friendship is the common thread that binds the two stories.

 

[lancecowboy]

    The appearance of "Brideshead" on this thread was, for me, like tossing a pork chop in front of a hungry dog, so I have to keep careful, to stay on-topic.
    Anyway, I think in any serious relationship between 2 people, an additional entity is created.  Say Ennis is X, Jack is Y, but their relationship is XY.
There's three things going on, when two people hook up.  The individuals and then the created partnership, greater than the sum of X + Y, and so therefore a newly born life force.

[...]

P.S.  I can't let this pass.  I just can't.  Loss of loved ones and the mindless tragedies of life, all too easily lead those who grieve into s sense of life having no meaning.  The loss points to the abyss of despair.  Waugh and Annie Proulx both have tragedy unmasking a force greater than the individual - love, and therefore defying the abyss.  Charles and Ennis are broken men, but better broken, than what they were before.....empty.

Bravo, Tony!  (

This hound dog hasn't seen the movie so am afraid that I won't be keeping up with you, so the pork chop is all yours. And you devoured it whole.

I love what you said...the force of nature that transformed an empty life, into a meaningful one, even if broken, is still better...love enough to hurt...

[tpe]

lance, I'm afraid we'll have to continue our disucssion about this in Seattle.  I am looking forward to meeting you at last. 

Tony, I think comparing Ennis and Jack with other well-known film "couples" such as Charles and Sebastian only serves to bring out how love and friendship intertwine, and are sometimes difficult/impossible to untangle.  Friendship doesn't necessarily lead to a deeper form of love, but one can say that there are many levels of friendship in that state we call love.  In the case of Ennis and Jack, we can clearlt delineate these various levels of freindship as their love deepens.  Would it be too hard an exercise to try to identify and discuss a number of them?

I will be gone for about a week, meeting Brokies in the West Coast.  Feel free to continue the discussion, and I look forward to reading them when I get back!

[Tony]

  Feel free to continue the discussion, and I look forward to reading them when I get back!

   Dear Thomas - darn, everybody seems to be going off for 2 weeks or so.  As far as comparing other relationships with Ennis and Jack, it really is a useful way to find yet more insights about our two heroes and even learn more about our own lives.  But you and Andrew are, so far, the heavy-hitters there, so there may not be much, if any, interest from other Brokies with you two gone.
  If I come up with anything, I will post, but otherwise, you guys have a great trip and.....post pictures!!!!! 

[tpe]

   Dear Thomas - darn, everybody seems to be going off for 2 weeks or so.  As far as comparing other relationships with Ennis and Jack, it really is a useful way to find yet more insights about our two heroes and even learn more about our own lives.  But you and Andrew are, so far, the heavy-hitters there, so there may not be much, if any, interest from other Brokies with you two gone.
  If I come up with anything, I will post, but otherwise, you guys have a great trip and.....post pictures!!!!! 

OT: Albert will probably be able to post pictures by Monday.    But do post anything that you may find especially relevant -- your last post was certainly very insightful.

 

[Tony]

  Thanks, Thomas.  Will do.

[lancecowboy]

lance, I'm afraid we'll have to continue our disucssion about this in Seattle.  I am looking forward to meeting you at last. 

Tony, I think comparing Ennis and Jack with other well-known film "couples" such as Charles and Sebastian only serves to bring out how love and friendship intertwine, and are sometimes difficult/impossible to untangle.  Friendship doesn't necessarily lead to a deeper form of love, but one can say that there are many levels of friendship in that state we call love.  In the case of Ennis and Jack, we can clearlt delineate these various levels of freindship as their love deepens.  Would it be too hard an exercise to try to identify and discuss a number of them?

I will be gone for about a week, meeting Brokies in the West Coast.  Feel free to continue the discussion, and I look forward to reading them when I get back!

Hi, tpe, I am so happy to have met you at last. I love our discussion on religion and politics, which, alas, would have been off limits on the forum.

What you stated above, is, I think, the meaning of: "Love is friendship caught fire." When the different forms and instances of friendship in a relationship become so entangled and impossible to untangle, the state of feeling between the two people can be called love. This is love at its purest, without the attachment of either platonic, romantic, or erotic modifiers. It is simply the love between Ennis and Jack that paw the whites out of the moon.

I hope we can delineate the progressive levels of friendship that you asked for above. Perhaps a good place to begin would be to review the list of transformation milestones that Jackster compiled for Ennis, as the friendship progressed. I believe it is in one of the newsletters. I will endeavor to retrieve it for our discussion.

   Dear Thomas - darn, everybody seems to be going off for 2 weeks or so.  As far as comparing other relationships with Ennis and Jack, it really is a useful way to find yet more insights about our two heroes and even learn more about our own lives.  But you and Andrew are, so far, the heavy-hitters there, so there may not be much, if any, interest from other Brokies with you two gone.
  If I come up with anything, I will post, but otherwise, you guys have a great trip and.....post pictures!!!!! 

No worries, Friend Tony. I will keep you company as best I can, while the heavy hitters are off in the real world, meeting real people.

The get-together was amazing, and I believe, reflects the friendship between Ennis and Jack, as they got together in the middle of no where once in a while. In fact, yesterday morning, I woke up with the sun, and found myself lying back on the pillow, while listening to my meditation music, remembering the picture of Ennis smiling to heaven, sending up a prayer of thanks. That's when tpe came over and we chatted for a long while.

I wish you can make it to a meet one day, and look forward to visiting with you in Virginia.

[Tony]

   Dear Andrew - glad you've been having a great time - you've been missed.  As far as delineating the levels of friendship, you and Thomas seem to have some sense there could be an organized approach, and there probably is one, but it's straining my noggin to get there. Still, will try.
   Despite the sexy crowd (and you KNOW who you are) that sees Ennis and Jack as wanting to boing at first sight outside Aguirre's trailer, but they couldn't because Ennis had "issues", I'd think it was fairly clear, some kind of friendship chemistry was what was starting up.  They found each other to be non-threatening and likeable, and then, given they were, basically, friendless, things accelerated subtly but rapidly.  They each had an unusual need for...a friend.  And being isolated together only served to accelerate things further.
  But, guys being guys, it's just not cool to admit you really are that interested.  One thing I might be able to contribute here is that the subtle back and forth of an advancing friendship would be similar to the same subtle ways of an advancing love.  Be careful, look for signs in the other, think about it (and we do see them in thoughtful scenes, considering the other, long before FNIT), and then take risks as they seem feasible.  The process of checking out the other for a deep friendship, then, would be the same as for those that have fallen in love.
  It looks like a friendship love was settling in fast.  But I would define a friendship love as one where the death of the friend was an extreme and lasting hurt, and I don't think they had reached that level by FNIT.  So, to keep this somewhat brief, it looks like: an accelerating friendship headed for the territory of friendship love, jolted by FNIT into some kind of liberated ever more extreme fast-forward zone, that went rapidly to SNIT where friendship love was validated and then trumped by the emergence of emotional/romantic love.
  The only other area I might could contribute anything to is this: it went too fast.  It all went so fast, they were both already there and yet still stuck in the preliminary mode of checking for signs from each other, and coming to conclusions of what to risk.  So I'd end by saying, if they hadn't of been brought down from the mountain early, they would have been on schedule for a better arrangement with each other.
  Well, everybody's out camping or goofing off, so, without the usual interplay, am not coming up with much that's new.  But, I gave it a go.

[lancecowboy]

   Dear Andrew - glad you've been having a great time - you've been missed.  As far as delineating the levels of friendship, you and Thomas seem to have some sense there could be an organized approach, and there probably is one, but it's straining my noggin to get there. Still, will try.
   Despite the sexy crowd (and you KNOW who you are) that sees Ennis and Jack as wanting to boing at first sight outside Aguirre's trailer, but they couldn't because Ennis had "issues", I'd think it was fairly clear, some kind of friendship chemistry was what was starting up.  They found each other to be non-threatening and likeable, and then, given they were, basically, friendless, things accelerated subtly but rapidly.  They each had an unusual need for...a friend.  And being isolated together only served to accelerate things further.
  But, guys being guys, it's just not cool to admit you really are that interested.  One thing I might be able to contribute here is that the subtle back and forth of an advancing friendship would be similar to the same subtle ways of an advancing love.  Be careful, look for signs in the other, think about it (and we do see them in thoughtful scenes, considering the other, long before FNIT), and then take risks as they seem feasible.  The process of checking out the other for a deep friendship, then, would be the same as for those that have fallen in love.
  It looks like a friendship love was settling in fast.  But I would define a friendship love as one where the death of the friend was an extreme and lasting hurt, and I don't think they had reached that level by FNIT.  So, to keep this somewhat brief, it looks like: an accelerating friendship headed for the territory of friendship love, jolted by FNIT into some kind of liberated ever more extreme fast-forward zone, that went rapidly to SNIT where friendship love was validated and then trumped by the emergence of emotional/romantic love.
  The only other area I might could contribute anything to is this: it went too fast.  It all went so fast, they were both already there and yet still stuck in the preliminary mode of checking for signs from each other, and coming to conclusions of what to risk.  So I'd end by saying, if they hadn't of been brought down from the mountain early, they would have been on schedule for a better arrangement with each other.
  Well, everybody's out camping or goofing off, so, without the usual interplay, am not coming up with much that's new.  But, I gave it a go.

I agree with your assessment, Tony, that the Friendship Interrupted by the early 'bring 'em down' caused the difficulty later on. There was never any closure, to move on. It is why the lonely Ennis sitting on the grassy mount resonated so much with me. I sat there, like that, one day, after my friend died, wondering, thinking, feeling lost.

But I digress...Our discussion is about the friendship that developed in '63, that led to FNIT, and SNIT, and the love that bound them for four and twenty years, that led to the reunion kiss ....

One thing that occurred to me watching Brokeback Mountain on the big screen this past weekend, was that the number of sheep that they had to care for, and be responsible for, must be at first overwhelming, and then very validating when things went well. For a couple of poor nineteen-year olds with nothing much to show for their abilities, Ennis and Jack must feel very proud of their shared accomplishment. I think it is what Ang Lee tried to show in the few scenes of them chopping wood, hewing water, weathering storm and hail. The shared experience increased the entanglement of friendship; the shared pride increased the entanglement of shared identity, shared memories.

Is that not the meaning of friendship?

Well, here is the transformation milestones that Jackster came up with in this other thread:

http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=12265.msg623667#msg623667

Posted by jackster on October 31

Hope, Contentment and the The Transformation of Ennis

[...] the major landmarks in this change have been marked along the way at these points or scenes, with aspects of his growth being show in (parentheses) – Just my views of course, everybody has their own special scenes.

“No more beans - orders soup” (friendship)

Shooting the elk (devotion)

“You wanna switch?” (commitment)

FNIT (lust)

SNIT (love)

“Bring ‘em Down” – “This ain’t no rodeo” (confusion)

Crying in the Alley (loss)

“You Bet” (longing)

“Come here” [the reunion kiss]. . . (passion)

“Just sending up a prayer of thanks” (self understanding)

“You ever get the feelin’ “ . . . (self awakening)

Bringing down the shirts (public coming out)

“Does he love you?” (sharing emotions)

“Jack I swear “. . . (self acceptance)

Each point marks a step, a step in the growth of Ennis to a fuller, or a more complete person. At the end we see Ennis transformed, the transformation may not be complete but it has made significant advancement. It is both sad and hopeful, both heartbreaking and inspiring. Jack is gone but the "complete" Ennis has taken his place.

Is the glass half empty or half full? I can see it both ways, depending on the day and my state of mind. To me this this is the beauty of great art, it can transform us while at the same time transforming itself, daily.

[tpe]

   Dear Andrew - glad you've been having a great time - you've been missed.  As far as delineating the levels of friendship, you and Thomas seem to have some sense there could be an organized approach, and there probably is one, but it's straining my noggin to get there. Still, will try.
   Despite the sexy crowd (and you KNOW who you are) that sees Ennis and Jack as wanting to boing at first sight outside Aguirre's trailer, but they couldn't because Ennis had "issues", I'd think it was fairly clear, some kind of friendship chemistry was what was starting up.  They found each other to be non-threatening and likeable, and then, given they were, basically, friendless, things accelerated subtly but rapidly.  They each had an unusual need for...a friend.  And being isolated together only served to accelerate things further.
  But, guys being guys, it's just not cool to admit you really are that interested.  One thing I might be able to contribute here is that the subtle back and forth of an advancing friendship would be similar to the same subtle ways of an advancing love.  Be careful, look for signs in the other, think about it (and we do see them in thoughtful scenes, considering the other, long before FNIT), and then take risks as they seem feasible.  The process of checking out the other for a deep friendship, then, would be the same as for those that have fallen in love.
  It looks like a friendship love was settling in fast.  But I would define a friendship love as one where the death of the friend was an extreme and lasting hurt, and I don't think they had reached that level by FNIT.  So, to keep this somewhat brief, it looks like: an accelerating friendship headed for the territory of friendship love, jolted by FNIT into some kind of liberated ever more extreme fast-forward zone, that went rapidly to SNIT where friendship love was validated and then trumped by the emergence of emotional/romantic love.
  The only other area I might could contribute anything to is this: it went too fast.  It all went so fast, they were both already there and yet still stuck in the preliminary mode of checking for signs from each other, and coming to conclusions of what to risk.  So I'd end by saying, if they hadn't of been brought down from the mountain early, they would have been on schedule for a better arrangement with each other.
  Well, everybody's out camping or goofing off, so, without the usual interplay, am not coming up with much that's new.  But, I gave it a go.

Interesting terminology, Tony.  I also think that they have not reached that level in FNIT.  Somehow, I get the feeling that they didn't reach that level that entire summer -- perhaps only after the reunion 4 years later that they realized that they couldn't live without the other.  IN a sense, it was not exactly "romantic"  -- it was more a visceral need, a hunger that was beyond physical.  In other words, by the time of the reunion, it had gone way beyond sex.

[babytammy7]

Interesting terminology, Tony.  I also think that they have not reached that level in FNIT.  Somehow, I get the feeling that they didn't reach that level that entire summer -- perhaps only after the reunion 4 years later that they realized that they couldn't live without the other.  IN a sense, it was not exactly "romantic"  -- it was more a visceral need, a hunger that was beyond physical.  In other words, by the time of the reunion, it had gone way beyond sex.

I love how you said that. I totally agree, Thomas. 

[atalley]

Well said.  They complimented each other, as well as completed one another.

[manhattangirl]

I don't if this makes any sense, but I've notice that in FNIT and the Reunion, there was one factor in both, that was Jack.  He took Ennis's hand, he also sends the postcard that brings them back together.  This trust, and Ennis trusted Jack, he had to or he wouldn't have kissed him so passionately.  It was the trust in their friendship love, and in the sexual part of their relationship that never ends, even with the separation of four years. 

Jack again leads Ennis, even after his death to an understanding that his love started that first summer.  JMO.

[lancecowboy]

I don't if this makes any sense, but I've notice that in FNIT and the Reunion, there was one factor in both, that was Jack.  He took Ennis's hand, he also sends the postcard that brings them back together.  This trust, and Ennis trusted Jack, he had to or he wouldn't have kissed him so passionately.  It was the trust in their friendship love, and in the sexual part of their relationship that never ends, even with the separation of four years. 

Jack again leads Ennis, even after his death to an understanding that his love started that first summer.  JMO.

You are always right on target, manhattangirl. The trust is part and parcel of the love and respect they had for each other. It is why Ennis got so angry at the last meeting when he felt Jack went off to Mexico.

Part of the tragedy was the lies and misunderstanding that happened, when words were left unsaid. Jack loved Ennis so much, but never came right out and told him. Ennis did not understand his feelings for Jack, but knew it was more than just buddies, this thing with no reins, but he never could articulate it, not even if he tried.

Sometimes I am a little outspoken because I am afraid of the words unsaid, but even then, I still find myself in situations where the words said were not sufficient, or misunderstood. It's why I am beginning to appreciate what Jack had, this ability to see in Ennis, what was needed, and gave it. Then again, he also got lucky. It was destiny. Not every Ennis will meet his Jack. Not every Jack will find an Ennis. More people have loved and lost, destroyed friendship over sex, than there are couples of Ennis and Jack.

I found a good question at bettermost yesterday. Did Ennis flirt? Were there enough clues for Jack to know, that his hand won't get blown off, or his postcard rejected? Was it luck, or good intuition of human behavior? After all, he is the best combine salesman they got. And great salesmen are great readers of human emotions.

I guess what I am saying is, they got lucky. It was destiny...in the stars...whatever you want to call it.

[Tony]

  Have had some gloomy experiences in the last few days, but one thing that came of them was relevant to this topic and so I thought I'd do one of my usual upside-down posts.
  We've been looking at friendship, sex, and love, and how they developed in Ennis and Jack.  Maybe we could add on to why they fell for each other, the additional question of why WE fell for THEM.  Because we did.  And it seems to be a lot of little stuff, we're up against in day-to-day life.  So, here goes:
-they didn't have any agenda that would be a turn-off.  Nothing political or religious.  They could discuss those matters lightly (and according to the SS, they did), and yet didn't have any intent to sell or overwhelm the other, where they might disagree.
-they shared a general, simplistic but sincere, sense of right and wrong.  Jack could empathize with the death of Ennis' parents, Ennis could note Jack's hurt his father never thought much of him.
-they were non-threatening to each other.  Neither one was trying to one-up the other as to who was smarter or stronger, or a better person.
-they both respected the privacy of the other, not probing past what the other was willing to say.
-very important....they were credible to each other.  No sense of falseness.  They were who they were.

    These are small matters that escape our radar screens.  And yet, if you think about it, just those small areas (and others) are why we can't, ourselves, so easily find true friendship or love and have to settle for much less.
   No apologies, then, for going for the simple rather than the intellectually complex.  They were free of much of the toxicity we see each day, or discover too late, in a marriage or friendship.  And so, the field was open for a solid friendship (for us with them, as well as for them with each other).
The gradual familiarity left the field open for love.  Again, they did love each other, and we did love them.  Sex.  Hmmmm.  Well, yeah, they went there, and, judging by the popularity of the photo threads, it could be supposed, many of us did, too.
  So that's all.  Maybe friendship, sex, and love are built into our very existence, but the field must be open for them to develop.  It was open for them, and open for us, as well, towards them, based on these seemingly minor, but normal barricades, not being there.  Annie had to take them down, for the story to work.  Taking them down in our own lives, is, of course, not so easy.  So, turning the question upside-down, why did they develop as they did, into why don't we develop what they had, so easily?  The fields were open, the barricades down.  Probably unrealistic in the real world, but a little help when looking over their loves, our loves,  and of course, our own lives.

[lancecowboy]

I am sorry, Tony,  to hear of your gloomy recent days. I hope being here helps to lift the darkness, and help shed some light.

Your right-side on post is always amazing. Why do we fall for Ennis and/or Jack?

  Have had some gloomy experiences in the last few days, but one thing that came of them was relevant to this topic and so I thought I'd do one of my usual upside-down posts.
  We've been looking at friendship, sex, and love, and how they developed in Ennis and Jack.  Maybe we could add on to why they fell for each other, the additional question of why WE fell for THEM.  Because we did.  And it seems to be a lot of little stuff, we're up against in day-to-day life.  So, here goes:

-they didn't have any agenda that would be a turn-off.  Nothing political or religious.  They could discuss those matters lightly (and according to the SS, they did), and yet didn't have any intent to sell or overwhelm the other, where they might disagree.

This was brought up in the Seattle weekend, and a major decision made by Ethan and the administrators. It is also why this forum is focused on love, and I think, blessed with it.

-they shared a general, simplistic but sincere, sense of right and wrong.  Jack could empathize with the death of Ennis' parents, Ennis could note Jack's hurt his father never thought much of him.

I agree totally with empathy between Jack and Ennis, and I agree with qualification on their sharing a "general, simplistic, but sincere sense of right and wrong". I think the emphasis is on the sharing, the sincere, but they disagree often on the general and simplistic. On the one hand, Jack objected to Acquierre asking him to go against the rule and sleeping with the sheep. On the other, he had no qualms shooting and eating one of them, much less the elk. Then there is Ennis, who would go along with the authority figure, and when Jack came along, follow in his footstep. It's not a matter of sharing in a simplistic sense of right and wrong, but rather, the sharing empathy that made them one, as in the dozy embrace.

-they were non-threatening to each other.  Neither one was trying to one-up the other as to who was smarter or stronger, or a better person.

I agree 100% here. There was no competition, without a little good natured ribbing thrown in. "Tired of your dumbass missing" "Rodeo cowboys are a bunch of f#$@ups." and the scene that Acquirre spotted, and the wrestling matches that probably went on day and night. Jack left the cowboy stuff to Ennis, as in the tent don't look right and not feel hurt by being bested, while Ennis left the bravado to Jack, being amused by it, instead of feeling the need to be told the truth...lie to me (Shane Mack). Again, the two fitted each other like two-shirts.

-they both respected the privacy of the other, not probing past what the other was willing to say.
-very important....they were credible to each other.  No sense of falseness.  They were who they were.

I am not sure if this contributed to their friendship, sex, and love. I think, in a way, their not putting everything on the table, in the long run, doomed their twenty years. A lot of what-ifs, but the truth is, if they are truly in love, then there is no reason why they needed privacy, or keeping secrets. Jack did Ennis wrong with his Mexico trips and Randall, and he knew it. Otherwise, he wouldn't need to lie about it. Ennis did Jack wrong with his stubborn dumbass pride, and he knew it, at the end, in the closet.

True love meant, in my humble opinion, like Shaun and Zach, giving each other room, but putting it out there, so there is no misunderstanding, better to risk having loved enough to hurt, to be vulnerable and stabbed, than to miss the chance of one shot. And most of all, true love is like Zach, to admit being wrong, and return, asking for another chance, to change. And Shaun, giving it, without a doubt, without a moment hesitation. That's why I love Shelter.

    These are small matters that escape our radar screens.  And yet, if you think about it, just those small areas (and others) are why we can't, ourselves, so easily find true friendship or love and have to settle for much less.
   No apologies, then, for going for the simple rather than the intellectually complex.  They were free of much of the toxicity we see each day, or discover too late, in a marriage or friendship.  And so, the field was open for a solid friendship (for us with them, as well as for them with each other).

The gradual familiarity left the field open for love.  Again, they did love each other, and we did love them.  Sex.  Hmmmm.  Well, yeah, they went there, and, judging by the popularity of the photo threads, it could be supposed, many of us did, too.

No apologies are ever needed, Tony. I love the way you think, so keep on posting exactly whatever you want. I agree 100% with what I highlighted above. It is why I am not a fan of love at first-sight. Perhaps I am a slow thinker, and so do not feel familiar until a lot of work in the field. It is also, why I admire Jack, his quick thinking on his feet, sizing up Ennis with a glance, and his patience, working on it until Ennis responded. I never thought about this, and was puzzled by the adoration others had for Jack, until, one day, this epiphany just happened, how does one know, when love is here? Jack knew. That's his gift.

  So that's all.  Maybe friendship, sex, and love are built into our very existence, but the field must be open for them to develop.  It was open for them, and open for us, as well, towards them, based on these seemingly minor, but normal barricades, not being there.  Annie had to take them down, for the story to work.  Taking them down in our own lives, is, of course, not so easy.  So, turning the question upside-down, why did they develop as they did, into why don't we develop what they had, so easily?  The fields were open, the barricades down.  Probably unrealistic in the real world, but a little help when looking over their loves, our loves,  and of course, our own lives.

That's not just all, Friend Tony. It is everything. Without getting all religious and an holier than thou attitude, your field of love reminds me of the parable of the seeds sown into the field, some are stolen by birds, others are scorched and burned in the hot sun. These are the toxicity of modern daily life. Other seeds withered, while others sprouted quickly but never took root. These are the people who do not see, or saw but never understood deeply enough.

PBS is the field of love being watered with our tears.

Thanks, Tony, from one co-worker to another. 

[Tony]

   Thanks, Andrew.  My gloomy stuff doesn't last long, luckily.  I noted where you had a few reservations on what I had posted, and found them persuasive.  That's the good part of back and forth, learning something or fine-tuning a thought.
  Anyway, I guess every member of this kind of forum is, by definition, interested in relationships.  That's why Ennis and Jack caught our eye.  You do, yourself, Andrew, have some strong abilities to look, empathize, learn, and define for others in a quiet way, what you have seen.  And this is the place to be doing that.  It's our little island.  Oh darn, I don't wanna go from gloomy to schmaltzy in one day, so will leave it there.  Thanks again. Tony.

[lancecowboy]

   Thanks, Andrew.  My gloomy stuff doesn't last long, luckily.  I noted where you had a few reservations on what I had posted, and found them persuasive.  That's the good part of back and forth, learning something or fine-tuning a thought.
  Anyway, I guess every member of this kind of forum is, by definition, interested in relationships.  That's why Ennis and Jack caught our eye.  You do, yourself, Andrew, have some strong abilities to look, empathize, learn, and define for others in a quiet way, what you have seen.  And this is the place to be doing that.  It's our little island.  Oh darn, I don't wanna go from gloomy to schmaltzy in one day, so will leave it there.  Thanks again. Tony.

  I just learned something new - schmaltzy - excessively sentimental. Well, Tony, when it comes to Ennis and Jack, I confess, I am very schmaltzy.

As far as relationships go, I can do it over the internet. Seriously. I am past the point where I expect any physical relationships in my life. Like I said, if love finds me great, if not, I am okay with that, too. To have loved and lost, is enough.

I won't follow along on this track for the moment, lest I get morose and have us both in gloom. So have a fine Sunday evening, and I will go take a walk in the sunshine.

[tpe]

I love how you said that. I totally agree, Thomas. 

Thanks Tammy.  The physical attraction remained, certainly.  But I don't think it was that central 4 years after...

[tpe]

Well said.  They complimented each other, as well as completed one another.

I think their completing each other was a central part of their friendship -- I would even say that it was the foundation of their attraction...

[tpe]

I don't if this makes any sense, but I've notice that in FNIT and the Reunion, there was one factor in both, that was Jack.  He took Ennis's hand, he also sends the postcard that brings them back together.  This trust, and Ennis trusted Jack, he had to or he wouldn't have kissed him so passionately.  It was the trust in their friendship love, and in the sexual part of their relationship that never ends, even with the separation of four years. 

Jack again leads Ennis, even after his death to an understanding that his love started that first summer.  JMO.

This trust was certainly important, not only in their friendship, but also in their love for each other.  It was this trust that made FNIT and SNIT possible.  You certainly see it in SNIT, when Ennis gives himself to Jack.

[tpe]

I found a good question at bettermost yesterday. Did Ennis flirt? Were there enough clues for Jack to know, that his hand won't get blown off, or his postcard rejected? Was it luck, or good intuition of human behavior? After all, he is the best combine salesman they got. And great salesmen are great readers of human emotions.

I guess what I am saying is, they got lucky. It was destiny...in the stars...whatever you want to call it.

I guess one could say that Ennis flirted -- in his own unique way of doing things.  He was certainly NOT flippant about it.  It rested on a deeper need.

They were lucky.  But I think they also deserve much credit for building the friendship, in spite of their fears about how their intentions might be perceived...

[lancecowboy]

I guess one could say that Ennis flirted -- in his own unique way of doing things.  He was certainly NOT flippant about it.  It rested on a deeper need.

They were lucky.  But I think they also deserve much credit for building the friendship, in spite of their fears about how their intentions might be perceived...

Exactly! tpe, Ennis was flirting, in the sense that he opened up to Jack in ways that he would never do to anyone else... 'more words than in a year'

And the beauty of it was that Jack understood...the subtle signals from Ennis, and took the next step, in the same subtle ways. They stepped slowly from friendship to sex to love, and each step was built on the small moments of friendship, love that came from their years of loneliness in the world, and their togetherness in the isolation on Brokeback Mountain. 

[lancecowboy]

[...]
-they didn't have any agenda that would be a turn-off.  Nothing political or religious.  They could discuss those matters lightly (and according to the SS, they did), and yet didn't have any intent to sell or overwhelm the other, where they might disagree.
[...]
-they were non-threatening to each other.  Neither one was trying to one-up the other as to who was smarter or stronger, or a better person.
[...]
-very important....they were credible to each other.  No sense of falseness.  They were who they were.

    These are small matters that escape our radar screens.  And yet, if you think about it, just those small areas (and others) are why we can't, ourselves, so easily find true friendship or love and have to settle for much less.
   No apologies, then, for going for the simple rather than the intellectually complex.  They were free of much of the toxicity we see each day, or discover too late, in a marriage or friendship.  And so, the field was open for a solid friendship (for us with them, as well as for them with each other).
The gradual familiarity left the field open for love.  Again, they did love each other, and we did love them.  [...]

Your words, Tony, as usual, took me some time to digest fully.

It just occurred to me, another reason why Ennis and Jack's friendship progressed so well, from one stage to the next, as you said, with sincerity and no agenda. I recall now what Annie Proulx said about these two, being both poor and from similar background. They friendship is so pure, that there can be no agenda. None of the toxic elements that you hinted at.

There is no discrepancy in their social and financial standing. Even Jack's truck was a beaten down old clunker that Ennis helped fix. There were no suspicions of gold digging or social climbing, as in Brideshead.  And because their attractiveness were equal in the movie or the short story, their love or attraction for each other was also relatively even. As someone said in the What is Love post, in every relationship, there is always someone who loves more than the other. In this case, Jack shows his love more, but Ennis loves Jack just as deeply. And they both felt this, even unexpressed explicitly.

The special love between Ennis and Jack is not just that they found each other, but that they were so perfectly matched - temperamentally, emotionally, financially, socially, skills-wise, and in almost every aspect of existence. The only tragic mismatch was their gender in a homophobic society.

[tpe]

Exactly! tpe, Ennis was flirting, in the sense that he opened up to Jack in ways that he would never do to anyone else... 'more words than in a year'

And the beauty of it was that Jack understood...the subtle signals from Ennis, and took the next step, in the same subtle ways. They stepped slowly from friendship to sex to love, and each step was built on the small moments of friendship, love that came from their years of loneliness in the world, and their togetherness in the isolation on Brokeback Mountain. 

I would even go so far in saying that Ennis was "flirting" in spite of himself.  I think you are right about never doing this with anyone else.  It's part of the uniqueness of their friendship that made this possible, and I daresay that Ennis never really had a friend -- not even Alma.

So, I would posit that Jack was both Ennis's first love AND friend.