Topic: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?

[Ranchand1]

     Oily marks appear on walls
     
     where pleasure moments hung before

     the take over

     the sweeping... insensitivity

     of this.....still......life...

     By Imogen Heap
 
     When I hear it I think of Ennis.

     Sorry if its not on topic. I saw song/poem quotes and went plum loco.

     I still believe Ennis was made a better man by Jack.  But only with Jack was he the better man.  Reverting back and even further into himself.

     Ill be needin to watch it again soon.  God help those who are here when I do.

     "My daddy says rodeon's for fuckups."  "The hell you say."

     

[lancecowboy]

I'm totally amazed at this. For the first time since I'm here I disagree with my dear two friends Tony and Andrew. I can't believe it, but it's true.

I read this thread every day and I have so many things to say about it. I love it so much. I always agree with them, but not now, not with the way Tony and Andrew see our boys if they never had met each other.

Sorry so much for this lame post. I promise I'll find the time to post why I disagree. I just have to find words and time to write, because I'm sooooo slow. But I'll be here.

Thank you so much for your wonderful posts, Tony, Andrew, MG and Thomas!! 

Wow Tammy, I'd never know that you read this everyday, and you enjoy it so much. Thank you for sharing this. I am glad.

And no worries about disagreement. It is in our disagreements that we learn from each other. I welcome your views on this. How do you see Ennis or Jack, if they had not met each other? How do you account for the prototype cowboy that inspired Annie Proulx to write the short story. I have been wrong many times so I am probably wrong here, too. Afterall, I was wrong about Ennis, and Tony corrected me.

As I said earlier, the last few pages here really helped me to focus on my journey. Thank you all for your input.

[rimasworld]

You have said it all here, rimasworld.  If there is anything to describe Ennis's resistance to love and friendship, it is the word "sad".

O sad are they who know not love
But far from passions tears and smiles
Drift down a moonless sea
Beyond the silvery coasts of fairy Isles.
And sadder they whose longing lips
Kiss empty air and never touch
The dear warm mouth of those they love
Waiting, wasting, suffering much...
 

That's very touching.. ty for sharing

[tpe]

   The operative word is "when" he had sex with Jack.  I really didn't get any impression of that from the SS or film.  Which would say a lot about Ennis, as there is guilt, for some, even in straight sex.  Looked to me like he had a very healthy attitude, before, during, and after.
   But as far as over-all guilt, over the relationship itself, it's there in a massive way.  So, forgive me for making the distinction, but I see Ennis, when he's in the over-all sexual zone (before, during, after) as extremely healthy.  The sex, itself.  But as far as the relationship, the love and the sex, when he returned to the non-sexual world, of day-to-day life, he was crippled with guilt.
  Secrecy and isolation played a part, too.  Riding through the woods and the streams with his lover---no guilt.  Pure joy.  Talking to Jack, with his daughters in the pick-up truck, guilt to the point of paranoia, seeing things in passing cars.  Sexual guilt, then - no.  He was more free than most men.  Guilt over what others would think, there, a prisoner of the larger world.

I agree that guilt looms large when Ennis was in the "real" world.  But would you agree that in the SNIT, we do read some uneasiness on the part of Ennis?  He let Jack lead the way, but he mostly kept his eyes closed, as if he didn't want to acknowledge what was happening.   

It is interesting to recall the memorable passage from the Dozy Embrace.  You know it, about Ennis not wanting to look at Jack for fear of seeing who he was holding.  Even in this most "sexless" of scenes, we see the world of guilt in Ennis peeping out. Sexless, yes; but it was hardly the "real" world either.   The DE was suspended between dream and reality, I would say.  But even in this world where desire and friendship/love become one, guilt is ever present.

[tpe]

     Oily marks appear on walls
     
     where pleasure moments hung before

     the take over

     the sweeping... insensitivity

     of this.....still......life...

     By Imogen Heap
 
     When I hear it I think of Ennis.

     Sorry if its not on topic. I saw song/poem quotes and went plum loco.

     I still believe Ennis was made a better man by Jack.  But only with Jack was he the better man.  Reverting back and even further into himself.

     Ill be needin to watch it again soon.  God help those who are here when I do.

     "My daddy says rodeon's for fuckups."  "The hell you say."

     

Certainly, I think a foundation of love based on friendship, and not just physical attraction, made Ennis a better man.  In a way, he may never have opened up to Jack without this...

That's very touching.. ty for sharing

Thank you, rimasworld. 

[Tony]

  You know it, about Ennis not wanting to look at Jack for fear of seeing who he was holding.  Even in this most "sexless" of scenes, we see the world of guilt in Ennis peeping out.

    Dear Thomas - I always took the off-beat view that, in the SS, the description of the Dozy Embrace was Jack's flawed perception, his complaint about how he thought Ennis saw him.  Similar to Ennis' subjective looking over of how Jack died. It wasn't necessarily true.
   One of the most tragic aspects of this great love affair is that neither knew how great the love of each was for the other.  So, Jack saw the Dozy Embrace as another example of what was wrong.  That's in the SS, and doesn't really show up in the film.
 It's a fine distinction we're into here, but, for me, Ennis revelled in the sexual encounters with Jack and it was only when he left the "Jack Zone" and returned to the larger world, that guilt became a really toxic factor. But there's clearly room enough for variations on what was really going on, as far as guilt. And mine may be wrong, but this may just be one of those areas where Annie left it up to us to fill in the blanks.

[lancecowboy]

    Dear Thomas - I always took the off-beat view that, in the SS, the description of the Dozy Embrace was Jack's flawed perception, his complaint about how he thought Ennis saw him.  Similar to Ennis' subjective looking over of how Jack died. It wasn't necessarily true.
   One of the most tragic aspects of this great love affair is that neither knew how great the love of each was for the other.  So, Jack saw the Dozy Embrace as another example of what was wrong.  That's in the SS, and doesn't really show up in the film.
 It's a fine distinction we're into here, but, for me, Ennis revelled in the sexual encounters with Jack and it was only when he left the "Jack Zone" and returned to the larger world, that guilt became a really toxic factor. But there's clearly room enough for variations on what was really going on, as far as guilt. And mine may be wrong, but this may just be one of those areas where Annie left it up to us to fill in the blanks.
 

That's amazing, Tony. That's exactly it - the tragic crux of the Brokeback Mountain is not just the oppressive homophobia in Ennis, but also the perceived inability to love that Jack had, of Ennis. If they truly knew how much each meant to the other, how much each loved the other, there would never be any surprise reunion kiss four years later, there would never be the finding of two-shirts in a closet twenty years after the fact. The tragedy was also the mis-opportunities, the love that dared not speak its name, was lost in translation... :\'( Thanks, bud. 

[tpe]

I think the point of the DE was Jack realizing that Ennis loved him in spite of all his (Ennis's) fears and misgivings.  THAT is the crux of the entire scene, and it parallels Ennis's scene in the closet, when he finally realizes how much Jack loved him in spite of everything that came between them.  It was not about whether Jack's perception was flawed or not, IMO.  It was about the nature of love and friendship: to be sure of one's love for someone no matter how imperfect that love is.  This is what the ending line of the DE means: "Let be, let be." 

[Tony]

I think the point of the DE was Jack realizing that Ennis loved him in spite of all his (Ennis's) fears and misgivings. 

  Dear Thomas, I completely understand and agree entirely with the quote from you, above.  The more so, since the Dozy Embrace was almost a display of parental love, both in the film and SS. Unconditional love, despite human failings.
  Yet there were these gray areas left open for us, in some cases, deliberately.  I guess that's why "Was Ennis Gay?" on any forum is usually the most read and most controversial.  It wouldn't be, if the issue had been definitively settled, by the story and film.  And then I actually saw, on one forum, a huge debate over whether, based on the SS only (where there was no SNIT), any kissing or romance had occurred.  There's a lot of layers to BBM and plenty of sand in the sandbox to play around with.
  But I have a wanting, to see Jack as mistaken, and freely admit that.  And sure enough, here's how Annie starts it:
    "What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand......"  which goes to a very subjective rendering of the experience itself.
But whether he had it right or not, returning to your quote above, he still accepted:  "Let be....Let be..."  Something was wrong, that Jack knew. And he did, as you said, allow his love to cover whatever failure that was.  I just still see that terrible lack of communication between them.  MPJ often went to that as the root core of the problem.  She needs to come back from her vacation and back to these topics.

[Tony]

- the tragic crux of the Brokeback Mountain is not just the oppressive homophobia in Ennis, but also the perceived inability to love that Jack had, of Ennis. If they truly knew how much each meant to the other, how much each loved the other, there would never be any surprise reunion kiss four years later, there would never be the finding of two-shirts in a closet twenty years after the fact. The tragedy was also the mis-opportunities, the love that dared not speak its name, was lost in translation...

   Yeah, Andrew, it's awful.  I think a lot of that is in everybody's life. There's so darned much to getting through life....work, chores, unexpected problems, that the full meaning of many relationships aren't seen until somebody passes on.  Both Jack and Ennis took for granted there'd always be another meeting, another stretch of freedom, alone, with each other.  And 20 years passed, and that was all they were given.  Ennis took it especially hard, in the SS, where he seemed to be often in some kind of delirium.  They left that out of the film.  Both endings, though, said the same.  It wasn't until it was over that the full force hit.

[tpe]

  Dear Thomas, I completely understand and agree entirely with the quote from you, above.  The more so, since the Dozy Embrace was almost a display of parental love, both in the film and SS. Unconditional love, despite human failings.
  Yet there were these gray areas left open for us, in some cases, deliberately.  I guess that's why "Was Ennis Gay?" on any forum is usually the most read and most controversial.  It wouldn't be, if the issue had been definitively settled, by the story and film.  And then I actually saw, on one forum, a huge debate over whether, based on the SS only (where there was no SNIT), any kissing or romance had occurred.  There's a lot of layers to BBM and plenty of sand in the sandbox to play around with.
  But I have a wanting, to see Jack as mistaken, and freely admit that.  And sure enough, here's how Annie starts it:
    "What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand......"  which goes to a very subjective rendering of the experience itself.
But whether he had it right or not, returning to your quote above, he still accepted:  "Let be....Let be..."  Something was wrong, that Jack knew. And he did, as you said, allow his love to cover whatever failure that was.  I just still see that terrible lack of communication between them.  MPJ often went to that as the root core of the problem.  She needs to come back from her vacation and back to these topics.

Tony, I entirely agree with you about the gray areas.  After all, the DE is, pretty much, a subjective valedictory on Jack's part, and how we ourselves choose to interpret Jack's thoughts on his love and friendship for Ennis at that critical juncture is open to  some degree of interpretation.  The important thing here is that no matter what, Jack remembered and cherished this moment as a testament of Ennis's love and friendship for him...

[rimasworld]

Tony, I entirely agree with you about the gray areas.  After all, the DE is, pretty much, a subjective valedictory on Jack's part, and how we ourselves choose to interpret Jack's thoughts on his love and friendship for Ennis at that critical juncture is open to  some degree of interpretation.  The important thing here is that no matter what, Jack remembered and cherished this moment as a testament of Ennis's love and friendship for him...

that was the beacon of light Jack held on to all those years

[lancecowboy]

I think the point of the DE was Jack realizing that Ennis loved him in spite of all his (Ennis's) fears and misgivings.  THAT is the crux of the entire scene, and it parallels Ennis's scene in the closet, when he finally realizes how much Jack loved him in spite of everything that came between them.  It was not about whether Jack's perception was flawed or not, IMO.  It was about the nature of love and friendship: to be sure of one's love for someone no matter how imperfect that love is.  This is what the ending line of the DE means: "Let be, let be." 

Yes, tpe, you are right, but at the same time, let be is just another way of saying, if you can't fix it, you got to stand it. The problem here, with this "I'm stuck here." attitude, is that they let be and stood it for twenty years, when they coulda explored the depth of their love. They skimmed the joy of sex on the surface of Brokeback Mountain when there is a motherlode of deeper love between them that were NEVER fully expressed.

Let be, is good, up to a point. But letting it be too long, and it becomes a bad habit. Good habits have a way of evolving, whereas bad ones tend to stick around way too long.

[lancecowboy]

   Yeah, Andrew, it's awful.  I think a lot of that is in everybody's life. There's so darned much to getting through life....work, chores, unexpected problems, that the full meaning of many relationships aren't seen until somebody passes on.  Both Jack and Ennis took for granted there'd always be another meeting, another stretch of freedom, alone, with each other.  And 20 years passed, and that was all they were given.  Ennis took it especially hard, in the SS, where he seemed to be often in some kind of delirium.  They left that out of the film.  Both endings, though, said the same.  It wasn't until it was over that the full force hit.

You said it, bud. And in spite of all the lessons, I still hold back, sometimes. As you said in another thread,...fear of love...

[tpe]

that was the beacon of light Jack held on to all those years

What a beautiful thing to call it.

[tpe]

Yes, tpe, you are right, but at the same time, let be is just another way of saying, if you can't fix it, you got to stand it. The problem here, with this "I'm stuck here." attitude, is that they let be and stood it for twenty years, when they coulda explored the depth of their love. They skimmed the joy of sex on the surface of Brokeback Mountain when there is a motherlode of deeper love between them that were NEVER fully expressed.

Let be, is good, up to a point. But letting it be too long, and it becomes a bad habit. Good habits have a way of evolving, whereas bad ones tend to stick around way too long.

Interesting: because I had thought early on that there is a very different tone of voice between "If you can't fix it..." and "Let be..."  The former has the feeling of being forced upon us, whereas the latter is a gentle resignation and acceptance. 

It is a beautiful phrase: "Let be, let be."  It sums up beautifully Jack's love and friendship with Ennis.  In it, we find acceptance and understanding, even if he did not fully understand or comprehend.  Love in the form of agape is beyond all human understanding.  It is Divine.

 

[lancecowboy]

Interesting: because I had thought early on that there is a very different tone of voice between "If you can't fix it..." and "Let be..."  The former has the feeling of being forced upon us, whereas the latter is a gentle resignation and acceptance. 

It is a beautiful phrase: "Let be, let be."  It sums up beautifully Jack's love and friendship with Ennis.  In it, we find acceptance and understanding, even if he did not fully understand or comprehend.  Love in the form of agape is beyond all human understanding.  It is Divine.

Yes, I agree with you 100% that there is a very different tone between Let be, and can't fix it. And it is Jack's heroic love of twenty years, that Ennis finally discovered in the two shirts, that made him realized that he shoulda and coulda fix it.

Love ...with acceptance and understanding, like Jack's, like Jack's Ma in the final scenes, is indeed Divine.

I guess I am at the stage, like some of you were, where I wish the love was a little more pushy, and Ennis was a little less stuck. Then again, I ain't as patient as Jack.

"Every four #$%ing years!"

[tpe]

If Jack's love and friendship is characterized by strong acceptance, Ennis's love and friendship is characterized by an abiding faithfulness.   Indeed, acceptance and faithfulness make an invincible whole.

 

[manhattangirl]

If Jack's love and friendship is characterized by strong acceptance, Ennis's love and friendship is characterized by an abiding faithfulness.   Indeed, acceptance and faithfulness make an invincible whole.

 

I've always wondered if it was Ennis acceptance of Jack's love or the belief in Jack's love Ennis found in the shirts, there is a difference isn't there? 

[tpe]

I've always wondered if it was Ennis acceptance of Jack's love or the belief in Jack's love Ennis found in the shirts, there is a difference isn't there? 

I think it was more a belief in the depth of that love.  But to be sure, I think it was more of belief. 

[Tony]

I've always wondered if it was Ennis acceptance of Jack's love or the belief in Jack's love Ennis found in the shirts, there is a difference isn't there? 

   It's a little awkward, saying anything here, as the thread on the shirts has just been revived.  But MG's post was here, so will answer here.

   On the whole, there are very few of the topics discussed in these threads where I couldn't find some grounds for changing my mind.  Or, at least, conceding another explanation held up and so I should keep that as something to look for, later.  But, forgive me for stubborness, the meaning of the discovery of the shirts was never one of them.
  All parts of the movie, and those just before the discovery, for me led to one conclusion:  Ennis never knew the depth of Jack's love for him. So then, yes, there is the distinction between accepting that love, finally, or at last believing.  But before those distinctions MG wonders over, for me, the most important point was that.....he didn't know.
 Then, finally knowing, maybe it moved not to Ennis accepting Jack's love, but the opposite, accepting, in full, his own great love for Jack, which he had been fighting, all along.  Sorry for being stubborn, on this one, but this is the core of the movie for me, and I fully respect anyone else's take, but, for me, on this one, will stay with that.  We each have our little areas, where we don't budge, so there's no harm there.
  It certainly is one of the most powerful moments in the story, and for many of us, the most important.  Great art, great acting, great meaning.

[atalley]

Tony...couldn't both of those statements be true?  Not only did he realize the love that Jack had for him, but he also came to accept the love he had for Jack (upon finding the shirts).   

[Tony]

Tony...couldn't both of those statements be true?  Not only did he realize the love that Jack had for him, but he also came to accept the love he had for Jack (upon finding the shirts). 

   Dear Atalley - sorry, didn't see your post until this morning.  Yes, you're right, both statements could be true.  Especially since, at the moment of discovering the depth of Jack's love, Ennis was then suddenly free to fully admit his own, to himself and to others (by behavior) without fear of his own great love not being retturned.
  It's a little awkward, being in this territory, because related threads have just been revived, including the diner scenes. And they all interact.  It really looks like, for 20 years, Ennis couldn't put a name to "this thing that comes over us", and when there were signs of what it really was, love, not friendship or sex, there were many fears to deal with.  Better to just keep going, with no definition.
 But, as so many have pointed out (I believe Andrew and Thomas leading the way), in the diner, Ennis was beginning to put the pieces together, and maybe even see, deferring some resolution was no longer possible.
 But, as you said, both may have occurred at the same time, with the shirts.  In fact, I believe they did.  Ennis discovered proof of an abiding love that traced back all the way to the mountain.  Not friendship. Not sex.  You don't keep those shirts for that.  But, love. And with that proof, he was free to admit and accept, in full, with no reservations, that he had loved Jack Twist.

[tpe]

Wonderful exchange, atalley and tony.  I find it interesting that I now read  your comment about the diner scene after just discussing it in one of the threads.  I  do think that it signaled a sort of change of heart in Ennis, or a beginning of understanding in terms of llove.

[FlwrChild]

   
 But, as you said, both may have occurred at the same time, with the shirts.  In fact, I believe they did.  Ennis discovered proof of an abiding love that traced back all the way to the mountain.  Not friendship. Not sex.  You don't keep those shirts for that.  But, love. And with that proof, he was free to admit and accept, in full, with no reservations, that he had loved Jack Twist.

Tony, for me that's it exactly.


I tend to put less emphasis on the importance of the exchange in the diner than others. I think it revealed a lot of things about some of the characters, but I think it was the shock of Jack's death and the realization that there would never be another November for them that opened the door for Ennis to look inside of himself and take some big leaps. Calling Lureen in Texas was the first step. Going to Lightning Flat and talking to Jack's parents was huge for someone like Ennis. But finding the shirts and understanding what they meant was the pivotal moment in realizing that 'this thing' they had was love; that Jack Twist had loved him all those years and that what he felt for Jack was love too.

The tragedy (to me) is that it took the loss of Jack, and what that jolt did to his heart, to get Ennis to understand that what they had was love all along.

[Tony]

The tragedy (to me) is that it took the loss of Jack, and what that jolt did to his heart, to get Ennis to understand that what they had was love all along.

   Thanks, FlowerChild, for that peaceful and and rightful support of where Atalley and I converged.  That justs holds up so strongly.  But, dang it all, I still wobble a little when I remember something else (for the movie is so very rich in differing scenes).
  Ennis said to Jack, that last time:  "All those things I don't know...?  ....Will come to get you killed if I ever find out."  He was freaking out, and, IMO, letting out a lot of pent-up suspicion and worry.
  There was so much between them over those years, there had to have been some wrestling with the fact they were lovers, not just friends.  So, with that rage, and that melt-down, Ennis knew, but probably feared the word itself.  The finality of that word. And if Jack was doing it with others, then, for Ennis there was the dilemma of whether Jack's love for him was as "chaste" and true, as Ennis' love for him.
  We see Ennis accepting, with a dull smile, Jack's father telling of another guy Jack had planned to move there, to Lightning Flat.  We see an Ennis resigned to Jack's not placing him first.  And we can remember what he'd said to Jack's wife: "We wuz friends...."
  Yeah, he knew Jack loved him.  What the tragedy Atalley and I were fiddling with, was the sudden realization of the greatness of the love, from Jack, and how that freed Ennis to finally, finally accept the extreme of his love FOR Jack.  So that what was discovered in that room was more than love, but the lightning bolt realization, it was the Great Love.
  All you said, then, FlowerChild, is just what I also see as the broad picture.  And then I have to go messing with the little shades of color tones and texture of the portrait itself.
  Well, t-storms in Norfolk for 2 -3 days, so, I hope am not knocked off the internet too often.  Rainy days, and BBM.......

[FlwrChild]

     Yeah, he knew Jack loved him.  What the tragedy Atalley and I were fiddling with, was the sudden realization of the greatness of the love, from Jack, and how that freed Ennis to finally, finally accept the extreme of his love FOR Jack.  So that what was discovered in that room was more than love, but the lightning bolt realization, it was the Great Love. 

All you said, then, FlowerChild, is just what I also see as the broad picture.  And then I have to go messing with the little shades of color tones and texture of the portrait itself.
  Well, t-storms in Norfolk for 2 -3 days, so, I hope am not knocked off the internet too often.  Rainy days, and BBM.......

Absolutely Tony. The realization that what Jack felt for him was love all along, that kind of love, and that it was ok that what he felt for Jack was genuine romantic love as well. That he was, in fact, the love of his life. And vice versa.

And I think that is what sustains the closet shrine and Ennis's declaration of "Jack, I swear..." which contains so much and can be interpreted in so many ways.

[tpe]

It also occured to me that from the misunderstandings/accusations embedded in the last confrontation, perhaps Ennis still thought that for Jack, it was largely about sex.  Surely, Jacks comment about he's not like Ennis may appear to reinforce this notion.  But we see what Jack was trying to say: that it meant much more to him than a few casual meetings up in the middle of nowhere.  For him, he wanted the whole life.  He wanted to grow old in their love.



 

[lancecowboy]

It also occured to me that from the misunderstandings/accusations embedded in the last confrontation, perhaps Ennis still thought that for Jack, it was largely about sex.  Surely, Jacks comment about he's not like Ennis may appear to reinforce this notion.  But we see what Jack was trying to say: that it meant much more to him than a few casual meetings up in the middle of nowhere.  For him, he wanted the whole life.  He wanted to grow old in their love.

I think you are right, there, tpe, that there is definitely a dis-connect between Ennis and Jack when it comes to the meaning of their relationship, up there in the mountain in the middle of no where. Jack always wants the cow and calf operation, growing old together, living together. Ennis always felt (so he thought) that it was just a one-shot deal, a bit of fun between friends, the sex thing. And the final confrontation brought all the misunderstanding to a head, and boiled over. Unfortunately for Ennis, he did not get it, not until Cassie cried her eyes out in the diner..."Girls don't fall in love with fun." Then he realized in a flash of recognition that it was more than just a bit of fun between friends, more than just the sex. It was something deeper, and perhaps...love. So even though he couldn't make it in August, he sent a postcard to Jack, to keep the connection alive. He wanted to go further. He was ready.

When he saw the two shirts, one within another, hanging like that for twenty years. It just occurred to me that, perhaps the sleeves were even stuck together when he reached for them. I could never see too clearly through the tears at this point, but it is possible. And if that is true, then Ennis must surely realized, that for twenty years, Jack held those shirts, just like that, always. His love was steadfast. And in that moment of recognition... :\'( Ennis rose from the ashes, and was made better by the love between them, the memories on Brokeback Mountain, that summer of '63. True, he also felt a mix of many other emotions, from regret, to grief, .... but shining brightly out of all the darkness is the love that HE also felt for Jack, in the form of hugging the shirts facing him, not away, like in the dozy embrace. In the past, he could not express that love. And now, he could, even in front of John Twist, and especially gratifying, to Jack's Ma.

[Tony]

  He was ready.

    That's what I do, myself, want to believe, Andrew. And though it's not proven, there's enough there to hope it was true.