Topic: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?

[lancecowboy]

    That's what I do, myself, want to believe, Andrew. And though it's not proven, there's enough there to hope it was true.

I think the power of the movie's tragic ending came from Ennis' love lost. After twenty years, Jack was denied the opportunity to see the man he loved so deeply for so long, finally coming around to meet him half way. And for Ennis, after denying all his life, the love he felt inside, when finally he was ready to love Jack, as least face to face, he was also denied. It is the tragic love denied that grips us so strongly. We wish it was not so. We wish, we hope, the flow of love continues. And it is this hope that we carry with us in every brokie meet, in this forum.

[tpe]

I think you are right, there, tpe, that there is definitely a dis-connect between Ennis and Jack when it comes to the meaning of their relationship, up there in the mountain in the middle of no where. Jack always wants the cow and calf operation, growing old together, living together. Ennis always felt (so he thought) that it was just a one-shot deal, a bit of fun between friends, the sex thing. And the final confrontation brought all the misunderstanding to a head, and boiled over. Unfortunately for Ennis, he did not get it, not until Cassie cried her eyes out in the diner..."Girls don't fall in love with fun." Then he realized in a flash of recognition that it was more than just a bit of fun between friends, more than just the sex. It was something deeper, and perhaps...love. So even though he couldn't make it in August, he sent a postcard to Jack, to keep the connection alive. He wanted to go further. He was ready.

Thanks lance for that observation.  The connection just occurred to me right now as I was reasing the above.

When he saw the two shirts, one within another, hanging like that for twenty years. It just occurred to me that, perhaps the sleeves were even stuck together when he reached for them. I could never see too clearly through the tears at this point, but it is possible. And if that is true, then Ennis must surely realized, that for twenty years, Jack held those shirts, just like that, always. His love was steadfast. And in that moment of recognition... :\'( Ennis rose from the ashes, and was made better by the love between them, the memories on Brokeback Mountain, that summer of '63. True, he also felt a mix of many other emotions, from regret, to grief, .... but shining brightly out of all the darkness is the love that HE also felt for Jack, in the form of hugging the shirts facing him, not away, like in the dozy embrace. In the past, he could not express that love. And now, he could, even in front of John Twist, and especially gratifying, to Jack's Ma.

Beautifully said, lance. 

If they were stuck together, then I can see a lot of symbolism there.

And I love the later part of your post:  the light that shone out of the darkness being how HE felt.

[tpe]

    That's what I do, myself, want to believe, Andrew. And though it's not proven, there's enough there to hope it was true.

And indeed there is.

[lancecowboy]

thank, tpe, tony, you guys always make me feel better.   

[atalley]

I'm glad you feel better Andrew...I'm getting a headache from crying.  Just when I think I'm ok, the PBS hits hard on some of these posts.  I need a Brokie

[lancecowboy]

I'm glad you feel better Andrew...I'm getting a headache from crying.  Just when I think I'm ok, the PBS hits hard on some of these posts.  I need a Brokie

  atalley 

You have company, dear, because I have been crying on and off for the last week, since I watched The Trip...It reminded me so much of Brokeback Mountain, and with the same tragic end. On top of that, it reminded me that there are evil people in the world, not just straight people, but gay people, too. There are wolves among the sheep, where ever we go. But in a way, embracing the movie, as I did Brokeback Mountain, made me stronger, and gave me the strength to face up to my own demons from the past. I was almost in tears on the bus, waiting at the bus stop. Those seem to be the worst moments for me. Like the song, Tuesday, 2 AM...I 've got too much time to think...

  atalley 

I have learned to focus on the friendship here, and the love that are really everywhere, if we know where to look. Ennis shut it out of his life. I am learning to attract more of it into mine. It takes a while to break an old, old habit.

Accept friendship as it is...no string attached.

Treasure love as the fragile gift that it is...softly, gently, with my heart.

And experience sex as the fire that it is...carefully, prudently, like a chef,
 to make love sing, without getting burned.

  atalley 

[atalley]

Thanks so much for the  Andrew.  Yes, we all need friends with no strings attached.  Also, in our marriage, I'm learning that difficult times are bringing us closer together.  (This was not always the case-thanks to me).

[lancecowboy]

Thanks so much for the  Andrew.  Yes, we all need friends with no strings attached.  Also, in our marriage, I'm learning that difficult times are bringing us closer together.  (This was not always the case-thanks to me).

  atalley 

Part of what Ennis taught me is that it is never too early or too late to make a change. Whenever we make a change for the better, it is the perfect time. It took me a long time to learn my lessons, and I wish I had learned them faster, but that's really hypothetical because who could tell, if my learning those lessons faster, could mean my not feeling Brokeback Mountain as much, and not finding this forum as a result?.... I stopped thinking of the what if, coulda, woulda after finding Garth Brooks The Dance.

- a youtube video of a tribute to Heath, with the song The Dance.

Looking back on the memory of
The dance we shared beneath the stars above
For a moment all the world was right
How could I have known you'd ever say goodbye
And now I'm glad I didn't know
The way it all would end the way it all would go
Our lives are better left to chance I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance
Holding you I held everything
For a moment wasn't I the king
But if I'd only known how the king would fall
Hey who's to say you know I might have changed it all
And now I'm glad I didn't know
The way it all would end the way it all would go
Our lives are better left to chance I could have missed the pain
But I'd of had to miss the dance
Yes my life is better left to chance
I could have missed the pain but I'd of had to miss the dance

I still need to make SOME plans, but I leave it as a frame work to fill in the detail by chance.

I wish that I can do as Heath did, never making plans...but I think he made some plans, too.

So it is with friendship, love, and sex. There is no making plans about them. They just happen, to Ennis and Jack one summer. Jack probably didn't plan on FNIT...but simply made the move when the opportunity came along. And Ennis never planed on SNIT either, but when it came along, he overcame his doubts and fear.

That's what I am working on nowadays, learning to be prepared, when the time comes.

[tpe]

So it is with friendship, love, and sex. There is no making plans about them. They just happen, to Ennis and Jack one summer. Jack probably didn't plan on FNIT...but simply made the move when the opportunity came along. And Ennis never planed on SNIT either, but when it came along, he overcame his doubts and fear.

That's what I am working on nowadays, learning to be prepared, when the time comes.

I largely agree.  Jack could have planned FNIT up to a point, but I think that he relied pretty much on things happening after Ennis had to stay the night -- he let the spirit move him, so to speak.  The fact that they didn't come to blows once jack did the starting move showed pretty much how far the love and friendship had developed, in spite of themselves.

As for the SNIT, I say the same thing: till the last minute, Ebbis was battling with himself. All he had to go with is his undeniable feelings for Jack.  Come what may.

[nagsheadsea412]

Ennis, it seems, was repressed for the good part of 20 years...He could never go public with Jack...and yet at that first reunion he was love struck for that person coming out of the red truck..heartfelt feelings bursting thru his body..the avalanche of him taking those stairs to embrace his other half.  The hotel scene too..very hot.....but he did keep Jack on a very strangulated leash..it was downhill after that IMO...Somehow, after his divorce, later when the girls were grown,a reinvigoration should have begun inside his brain= the dawning of Jack- yes, we can do it- divorced men pretending to be cousins living on a small ranch-oh, this is truly beginning to scrape the bottom of a barrel...if you can't fix it, screw it...

[lancecowboy]

Ennis, it seems, was repressed for the good part of 20 years...He could never go public with Jack...and yet at that first reunion he was love struck for that person coming out of the red truck..heartfelt feelings bursting thru his body..the avalanche of him taking those stairs to embrace his other half.  The hotel scene too..very hot.....but he did keep Jack on a very strangulated leash..it was downhill after that IMO...Somehow, after his divorce, later when the girls were grown,a reinvigoration should have begun inside his brain= the dawning of Jack- yes, we can do it- divorced men pretending to be cousins living on a small ranch-oh, this is truly beginning to scrape the bottom of a barrel...if you can't fix it, screw it...

Ennis was the homophobic man in love with another man, as Heath put it in an interview. Ennis denied this love for as long as he could, this thing with no reins. He was energized whenever he was with Jack. Like when he charged into the apartment after the night with Jack in Motel Siesta, and ran through the rooms getting ready for the weekend camping with Jack. He acted like a little kid excited beyond belief on his first camping trip.  He didn't have the education or the emotional development to rein in his feelings, to understand them, but he knew what it was doing to him. Hiding them was the only way he knew, to protect himself in the homophobic rural west of the past. Meeting Cassie in the diner showed him a little of what this was, love, not just sex, or friendship.

It was a long journey for Ennis to travel from homophobia to acceptance. It is this remarkable journey that Heath depicted so brilliantly in a moment of truth in the tiny closet in Lightning Flats, when Ennis saw, recognized, and reached out to the two shirts. It is this liberation from his prison that Heath portrayed so perfectly in that wrenching embrace of the two shirts, yearning for the person in it.

He can't go back and change what was in the past, what was the reality of Jack's death, so he just gotta stand it, for as long as he lived, and make the most of what he had.

[nagsheadsea412]

Yes, but it was belated understanding, coupled with added loneliness....achingly wretched..yes, they had their love for all it was worth...but for others with this unbearableness they might have put a gun to their mouth.....Maybe I shouldn't have seen this movie....Laurel and Hardy next time.......kidding aside, brilliant believable acting by both of them.....

[lancecowboy]

Yes, but it was belated understanding, coupled with added loneliness....achingly wretched..yes, they had their love for all it was worth...but for others with this unbearableness they might have put a gun to their mouth.....Maybe I shouldn't have seen this movie....Laurel and Hardy next time.......kidding aside, brilliant believable acting by both of them.....

Brilliant acting yes, Heath captured the stoicism of Ennis, and if you can't change it, you gotta stand it. Ennis would never take the coward's way out, not with his girls still so young, and finding a new friend in Jack's Ma. On top of all that, he still had an obligation to Jack, to lay his ashes in Brokeback Mountain. Ennis would never let him down, after all that. The one thing that Jack wanted, that Ennis could do for him. Ennis would never rest, until he could make it come true.

[vedrana]

Ennis was the homophobic man in love with another man, as Heath put it in an interview. Ennis denied this love for as long as he could, this thing with no reins. He was energized whenever he was with Jack. Like when he charged into the apartment after the night with Jack in Motel Siesta, and ran through the rooms getting ready for the weekend camping with Jack. He acted like a little kid excited beyond belief on his first camping trip.  He didn't have the education or the emotional development to rein in his feelings, to understand them, but he knew what it was doing to him. Hiding them was the only way he knew, to protect himself in the homophobic rural west of the past. Meeting Cassie in the diner showed him a little of what this was, love, not just sex, or friendship.

It was a long journey for Ennis to travel from homophobia to acceptance. It is this remarkable journey that Heath depicted so brilliantly in a moment of truth in the tiny closet in Lightning Flats, when Ennis saw, recognized, and reached out to the two shirts. It is this liberation from his prison that Heath portrayed so perfectly in that wrenching embrace of the two shirts, yearning for the person in it.

He can't go back and change what was in the past, what was the reality of Jack's death, so he just gotta stand it, for as long as he lived, and make the most of what he had.

You did it to me again Lance - a very moving post! :\'( :\'( :\'(

I read on the other forum the story of a man, a cowboy, who was an inspiration for Heath to perform Ennis. That story is also amazing and moving, and depicts everything you've just describe in your post.

[vedrana]

Yes, but it was belated understanding, coupled with added loneliness....achingly wretched..yes, they had their love for all it was worth...but for others with this unbearableness they might have put a gun to their mouth.....Maybe I shouldn't have seen this movie....Laurel and Hardy next time.......kidding aside, brilliant believable acting by both of them.....

I know pretty much what you feel and what you want to say. It was the same with me... and still is! 

[lancecowboy]

You did it to me again Lance - a very moving post! :\'( :\'( :\'(

I read on the other forum the story of a man, a cowboy, who was an inspiration for Heath to perform Ennis. That story is also amazing and moving, and depicts everything you've just describe in your post.

  loreen 

Heath met Adam Sutton on the shoot for the movie Ned Kelly. Adam, also from Australia, taught Heath how to ride, and from that, they developed a life-long friendship. Heath used some of these skills when he was in the movie Four Feathers. You can find out more about Adam Sutton in on the threads here. Just search on Adam Sutton. He wrote a book and there is a link to buy it online.

[atalley]

I bought a used copy of "Shout It Out Loud" by Adam Sutton on Amazon.com and am awaiting it's arrival.

[vedrana]

loreen 

Heath met Adam Sutton on the shoot for the movie Ned Kelly. Adam, also from Australia, taught Heath how to ride, and from that, they developed a life-long friendship. Heath used some of these skills when he was in the movie Four Feathers. You can find out more about Adam Sutton in on the threads here. Just search on Adam Sutton. He wrote a book and there is a link to buy it online.

I know Lance, I've seen the whole story, just forgot the name. Very moving story!

I'd just watched the deleted scene with the shirts and a video with Diana Ross' song "When you tell you love me" with some selected scenes from BBM, and I am a wreck again....  :\'( :\'( :\'(

This comes and goes in waves. I was pretty good for a few weeks and I just knew that it's time to sink again.  :\'( :\'( :\'(

[vedrana]

I bought a used copy of "Shout It Out Loud" by Adam Sutton on Amazon.com and am awaiting it's arrival.

Oh! I think that it could be very interesting to read the whole book!

[lancecowboy]

  loreen  there's no reins on this one, but being here sharing it helps a lot.

I hope you enjoy the book, atalley. Dirtbiker read it and showed some of the photos on the Adam Sutton thread. It's really amazing. You will find the radio interview there. It's an hour long, and listening to it, I was in tears for most of it. So be prepared.

 

[tpe]

Ennis was the homophobic man in love with another man, as Heath put it in an interview. Ennis denied this love for as long as he could, this thing with no reins. He was energized whenever he was with Jack. Like when he charged into the apartment after the night with Jack in Motel Siesta, and ran through the rooms getting ready for the weekend camping with Jack. He acted like a little kid excited beyond belief on his first camping trip.  He didn't have the education or the emotional development to rein in his feelings, to understand them, but he knew what it was doing to him. Hiding them was the only way he knew, to protect himself in the homophobic rural west of the past. Meeting Cassie in the diner showed him a little of what this was, love, not just sex, or friendship.

It was a long journey for Ennis to travel from homophobia to acceptance. It is this remarkable journey that Heath depicted so brilliantly in a moment of truth in the tiny closet in Lightning Flats, when Ennis saw, recognized, and reached out to the two shirts. It is this liberation from his prison that Heath portrayed so perfectly in that wrenching embrace of the two shirts, yearning for the person in it.

He can't go back and change what was in the past, what was the reality of Jack's death, so he just gotta stand it, for as long as he lived, and make the most of what he had.

Yes, but it was belated understanding, coupled with added loneliness....achingly wretched..yes, they had their love for all it was worth...but for others with this unbearableness they might have put a gun to their mouth.....Maybe I shouldn't have seen this movie....Laurel and Hardy next time.......kidding aside, brilliant believable acting by both of them.....

Great exchange.

nagsheadsea412, in spite of the tragedy that is BBM, I hope you can see past the pain and the despair.  For others, friendship and love should not be taken as an unbearable false hope.  I would like to think that even Ennis saw this in the end, even though his understanding was belated.

[lancecowboy]

Great exchange.

nagsheadsea412, in spite of the tragedy that is BBM, I hope you can see past the pain and the despair.  For others, friendship and love should not be taken as an unbearable false hope.  I would like to think that even Ennis saw this in the end, even though his understanding was belated.

Thanks, tpe, but I don't understand what you mean about "... friendship and love should not be taken as an unbearable false hope." If anything at all, to me, Brokeback Mountain, and the discussion in this thread particularly point to love being born of friendship, and that there is hope, as long as we are open to love, and not hold on to fears, as Ennis did.

Jack and Ennis went up the mountain expecting nothing, and was thrilled to find the friendship that had them pawing the white out of the Moon. And from that friendship, and Jack's hopes and dreams, came FNIT, SNIT, and the rest.

It was Ennis' own fears, and the bigotry of his father, of the times, that denied them of their hopes and dreams. The hope was not false, in my opinion. Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning, in which case, I hope to be illuminated.

[tpe]

Thanks, tpe, but I don't understand what you mean about "... friendship and love should not be taken as an unbearable false hope." If anything at all, to me, Brokeback Mountain, and the discussion in this thread particularly point to love being born of friendship, and that there is hope, as long as we are open to love, and not hold on to fears, as Ennis did.

Jack and Ennis went up the mountain expecting nothing, and was thrilled to find the friendship that had them pawing the white out of the Moon. And from that friendship, and Jack's hopes and dreams, came FNIT, SNIT, and the rest.

It was Ennis' own fears, and the bigotry of his father, of the times, that denied them of their hopes and dreams. The hope was not false, in my opinion. Perhaps I misunderstood your meaning, in which case, I hope to be illuminated.

Hello lance.    Perhaps I am misunderstanding the comment, but I was reacting to this:

Yes, but it was belated understanding, coupled with added loneliness....achingly wretched..yes, they had their love for all it was worth...but for others with this unbearableness they might have put a gun to their mouth.....[/b]

Love can also bring pain, anguish, and (yes) loneliness.  But I would like to think that the experience of love outweighs all these.    If anything, love should teach us not to despair, even if a love is not requited or brings about difficulties and complications.   The "unbearableness" should never make any of us think for one moment that a life of love is not worth living.

[vedrana]

The way I see the order is the same as some others, so
1. the friendship was first of course.
2. Then it was love,
3. and than sex.
Of course, at the beginning love was just a seed and it was not easy to see it in the way we recognize sex... We can't say - there's being some sex developing in here, cos sex is obvious, but IMO there was love before sex. Later it developed during SNIT, to be in full by the time they separated in 1963, but they just didn't know it. Ennis knew that was something huge going on, something he was afraid of and therefore he punched Jack that day so severe. What he didn't know is that Jack would be in his heart forever, and there would be no place on Earth where he could hide from his own feelings. The power of Ennis' love was brilliantly expressed in the reunion kiss, and Jack's love was never to suspect.

Unfortunately, they never spoke up about love. They never said it out loud...

Friendship was normal, sex was obvious, but love.... love was not something that two men should share. This especially goes to Ennis, and if Jack ever contemplated about love, if he ever wanted to state his love he suspected that Ennis would reject and ridicule it.

Well, we all know the result of that silence... :\'(

[myprivatejack]

I tend to believe,Loreen,that fist was attraction (remember when they first met),even if very hidden in Ennis case and,maybe,a little "disguised" as friendship in Jack's.In second place,friendship,of course.Then sex(even if shaded because love's seed was already planted) and finally,love.
I would like to ask you all if you think that they are better friends than lovers,it's to say; did they have a real trust in each other,a greater communication when they were only friends-no matter now what they felt inside) and they lost a great part of this when they became lovers?.

[vedrana]

I tend to believe,Loreen,that fist was attraction (remember when they first met),even if very hidden in Ennis case and,maybe,a little "disguised" as friendship in Jack's.In second place,friendship,of course.Then sex(even if shaded because love's seed was already planted) and finally,love.
I would like to ask you all if you think that they are better friends than lovers,it's to say; did they have a real trust in each other,a greater communication when they were only friends-no matter now what they felt inside) and they lost a great part of this when they became lovers?.

MPJ  ,
I didn't mention attraction cos it was not in the theme, but you might be right here. I am not the best person to talk about it.

But I strongly believe that before sex there was love.    (I don't quite understand why you say that sex was "shaded because of love"?)

Love was there. When they talked about their families and after Jack says that Ennis hadn't been spoken so much for past 2 weeks, he gave Ennis such a look... it was Love with a capital "L". Were they aware of it? Probably not, but it was there.

As I said sex was the easiest part of their relationship to recognize - we can't miss it.

About your question: I believe that sex in their relationship was just a step foreward, after they had a full trust in each other, after they developed a friendship and after they felt something romanticaly for each other. Their physical relatioship didn't spoil anything IMO, only made them closer and turn their relationship into the fullest belonging one person with another. 

[tpe]

Although I tend to believe that the attraction was initially sexual, I am drawn to the belief that it became much more than that soon after.  Perhaps Jack was initially interested in a sexual relationship that would be discarded/forgotten once the summer had passed.  One wonders whether he has done something like this in the past.  But the small talk at the bar soon revealed to him that they had more in common than first meets the eye...

[myprivatejack]

MPJ  ,
I didn't mention attraction cos it was not in the theme, but you might be right here. I am not the best person to talk about it.

But I strongly believe that before sex there was love.    (I don't quite understand why you say that sex was "shaded because of love"?)
Love was there. When they talked about their families and after Jack says that Ennis hadn't been spoken so much for past 2 weeks, he gave Ennis such a look... it was Love with a capital "L". Were they aware of it? Probably not, but it was there.

As I said sex was the easiest part of their relationship to recognize - we can't miss it.

About your question: I believe that sex in their relationship was just a step foreward, after they had a full trust in each other, after they developed a friendship and after they felt something romanticaly for each other. Their physical relatioship didn't spoil anything IMO, only made them closer and turn their relationship into the fullest belonging one person with another. 

Well,I'm afraid I didn't explain myself well enough by writing this;by saying that sex was first than love and that love was "shaded",I meant that love was already between them somehow when they had sex.(Remember that my exact phrase was: Then sex(even if shaded because love's seed was already planted).
It's to say,love existed even if they didn't completely realise it,and even if FNIT was the logical conclusion of a sexual tension between them-and I'm not speaking now about love...-that led consequently to SNIT and the full realisatiuon and acceptation of their love-I'm speaking about this in anotherpost today...-.I don't know if now all this makes sense...

Although I tend to believe that the attraction was initially sexual, I am drawn to the belief that it became much more than that soon after.  Perhaps Jack was initially interested in a sexual relationship that would be discarded/forgotten once the summer had passed.  One wonders whether he has done something like this in the past.  But the small talk at the bar soon revealed to him that they had more in common than first meets the eye...

Yes,it's more or less what I meant.But I'm not speaking about terms,although I also believe that it became much more than a simple attraction much sooner than it seems at the first moment.I'm speaking about the order of their feelings and sensations and the logical development of them.And,in this sense,I keep on believing that first was atraction,after that friendship,sex and love;even if there have been some moments when two or more of these feelings got mixed...

[lancecowboy]

Although I tend to believe that the attraction was initially sexual, I am drawn to the belief that it became much more than that soon after.  Perhaps Jack was initially interested in a sexual relationship that would be discarded/forgotten once the summer had passed.  One wonders whether he has done something like this in the past.  But the small talk at the bar soon revealed to him that they had more in common than first meets the eye...

I recall Jake explained that Ang told him Jack had more experience than Ennis.

Personally, I believe the initial attraction was sexual from Jack only. Ennis simply treated Jack as another man to work with. It was after the friendship developed through the months together, and then the bear incident that more affectionate feelings surfaced. Sex was only incidental after Jack initiated it FNIT and then it became a part of the love that never died in SNIT.

To me, Ennis was more about love. This explains why he never went with another man. Jack was partly about sex, always, so he needed it more, with Ennis or not. The intensity of love from Ennis also touched Jack in a way that he could never get from any other, so he could never quit.

The two fitted each other, Jack the initiator, Ennis the sustainer.

Neither would love, like this, always, without the other.

[vedrana]

I recall Jake explained that Ang told him Jack had more experience than Ennis.

Personally, I believe the initial attraction was sexual from Jack only. Ennis simply treated Jack as another man to work with. It was after the friendship developed through the months together, and then the bear incident that more affectionate feelings surfaced. Sex was only incidental after Jack initiated it FNIT and then it became a part of the love that never died in SNIT.

To me, Ennis was more about love. This explains why he never went with another man. Jack was partly about sex, always, so he needed it more, with Ennis or not. The intensity of love from Ennis also touched Jack in a way that he could never get from any other, so he could never quit.

The two fitted each other, Jack the initiator, Ennis the sustainer.

Neither would love, like this, always, without the other.

Hi, Lance
I believe that it had been much less than months before FNIT. E.g. the man who broghted them a groceries said -"too early in the summer to be sick of beans". I think that was put on purpose to give us an idea that the summer just started.

I think that you have a point when you say that sexual attraction started with Jack, and that sexual part was always more emphasized in him than in Ennis! That's a very good poin IMO! Even so, I don't think that Jack was touched only by Ennis' love intensity. I believe that there was much more than that! Especially cos Ennis pulled back so many times, cos he let himself be comfortable with his feelings and sexual desire very few times. If Jack rely only to this, that wouldn't be enough. I believe that there was a special chemistry between them based on many things, starting from a misfortunate childhood through 2 opposite characters, two loving souls and the need they both had for a pure relatioship, without a complications. And they were capable to give each other just that - friendship and love in the form no one else could give them.