Topic: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?

[myprivatejack]

About your question: I believe that sex in their relationship was just a step foreward, after they had a full trust in each other, after they developed a friendship and after they felt something romanticaly for each other. Their physical relatioship didn't spoil anything IMO, only made them closer and turn their relationship into the fullest belonging one person with another. 

One more time I hadn't explained myself well enough(my stupid English is always playing me some bad tricks¡ ).In this case,I was referring if you believe that the trust in each other they showed when they were simply friends-and now I'm speaking about friendship only,letting aside the possible attraction there could be...-.got a little diminished when their relationship became deeper.We have seen as someone as silent and lonely as Ennis managed to talk with Jack about facts of his life that never before had shared with anybody;how in the s.s. specially,we are told that they were happy to have found someone who they agreed with.In sum,how their friendship was based in a great trust in one another.
But we have seen also how,with the years passing,they hadn't trust enough as to be naked emotionally before the other in a full sense,and IMO there're several examples:from the very moment they said farewell after having come down from the mountain-an example of lack of communication...) to an inexistent talk about their real feelings and the way they could develop them in the latest years.It's not so illogical that two persons who "work" very well as a friends,lost a considerable part of this emotional intimacy when becoming a couple;several very different and sometimes mixed feelings enter into it them,be jealousy,be fear of losing the beloved person,be taking for granted that everything is said and done between them and that each one knows perfectly well what the other thinks,wishes or fears...So,I keep on asking; do you believe their confidence,trust and friendship diminished when their relationship changed?.

[vedrana]

One more time I hadn't explained myself well enough(my stupid English is always playing me some bad tricks¡ ).In this case,I was referring if you believe that the trust in each other they showed when they were simply friends-and now I'm speaking about friendship only,letting aside the possible attraction there could be...-.got a little diminished when their relationship became deeper.We have seen as someone as silent and lonely as Ennis managed to talk with Jack about facts of his life that never before had shared with anybody;how in the s.s. specially,we are told that they were happy to have found someone who they agreed with.In sum,how their friendship was based in a great trust in one another.
But we have seen also how,with the years passing,they hadn't trust enough as to be naked emotionally before the other in a full sense,and IMO there're several examples:from the very moment they said farewell after having come down from the mountain-an example of lack of communication...) to an inexistent talk about their real feelings and the way they could develop them in the latest years.It's not so illogical that two persons who "work" very well as a friends,lost a considerable part of this emotional intimacy when becoming a couple;several very different and sometimes mixed feelings enter into it them,be jealousy,be fear of losing the beloved person,be taking for granted that everything is said and done between them and that each one knows perfectly well what the other thinks,wishes or fears...So,I keep on asking; do you believe their confidence,trust and friendship diminished when their relationship changed?.

No, MPJ! It wasn't your English! I understood your question very well, but didn't think so deep as you did. Now I see your point much better cos you told me some examples, I didn't think about before.

Let me think now: I believe that their  or confidence in each other didn't diminish. They were just protecting their relationship by hiding some things or avoiding to talk about some things. Cos their relationship become very deep, emotionally, sexually and they needed it, and protected it.  Moreover cos their love never had a chance to glow in it's full. Never enough time, never enough  :\'( So, they had to protect their fragile love (even if they didn't call it "love") and therefore had to make some compromise. That is how I see it. Those compromise didn't destroy anything, only was adjusted to preserve something more valuable. IMO

Maybe I am stupid, but I see their love as so beautiful that sometimes I tend to forget any bad side of their relationship. And I don't even consider myself a romantic... 

[atalley]

I am a hopeless romantic, & I think each of you has brought up good points in their relationship.

[myprivatejack]

No, MPJ! It wasn't your English! I understood your question very well, but didn't think so deep as you did. Now I see your point much better cos you told me some examples, I didn't think about before.

Let me think now: I believe that their  or confidence in each other didn't diminish. They were just protecting their relationship by hiding some things or avoiding to talk about some things. Cos their relationship become very deep, emotionally, sexually and they needed it, and protected it.  Moreover cos their love never had a chance to glow in it's full. Never enough time, never enough  :\'( So, they had to protect their fragile love (even if they didn't call it "love") and therefore had to make some compromise. That is how I see it. Those compromise didn't destroy anything, only was adjusted to preserve something more valuable. IMO

Maybe I am stupid, but I see their love as so beautiful that sometimes I tend to forget any bad side of their relationship. And I don't even consider myself a romantic... 

  I'm a romantic too when it's necessary to be,but I have a rather practical sense of life.So,I don't agree in that to avoid speaking about some things was a real way of protecting their love.Society was against them and their love,not themselves ¡.And believe me,in these cases-well,almost in all of them...-the best way to act is forming a "common front" of the two persons,for becoming stronger against the situation that is threatening their relationship.
It's not so good,in exchange,not talking about their respective and/or common wishes or fears,not deciding what way to go together,not speaking to each other with their heart in their sleeve,in a word.Neither Ennis nor Jack had A REAL COMMUNICATION;only Jack was longing aloud for a "sweet life together" during half his life.But he never went to terms with his own ideas or projects to get it,sitting with Ennis to "heal" his fears and trying to find TOGETHER something similar to a solution...When everybody is your enemy,you don't need to be yours too;and with this lack of communication,Ennis and Jack weren't protecting their love.They were something very similar to their own enemy...
I'm sorry,because in this very moment all of you're going to put me in the "Brokie black list",but it's what I believe; our boys had a lot of trust and communication as a friends,but as a lovers...

[vedrana]

 ^^) OK MPJ, come here!

 

You're definitely right! They haven't done a good job hiding things from each other, but they wanted in a way to protect other one. And about their communication - they were uneducated, they lived in so backward rural places, they were men, Ennis spoke hardly a ten sentences a year... what do we expect? Friendship sometimes needs no words - No more beans!  -I'm sick of beans! That's all. But to break the high walls that society put in front of them... it took much much more and unfortunately our dearest boys couldn't make it! It was too much for them.
Ennis was as stubborn as a bull! It wasn't easy to concur his cemented ideas about "normal life" and to break his fears. We always think of Jack as more open, but he has his faults too, and if I can judge anyone, I can't judge Jack, even it's true that he scr**ed up himself too.
They were protecting the idea of love they were pursuing, but of course it would've been much better if they stood together and fight the rest of the world together.

[tpe]

I recall Jake explained that Ang told him Jack had more experience than Ennis.

Yes, I remember this...

Personally, I believe the initial attraction was sexual from Jack only. Ennis simply treated Jack as another man to work with. It was after the friendship developed through the months together, and then the bear incident that more affectionate feelings surfaced. Sex was only incidental after Jack initiated it FNIT and then it became a part of the love that never died in SNIT.

To me, Ennis was more about love. This explains why he never went with another man. Jack was partly about sex, always, so he needed it more, with Ennis or not. The intensity of love from Ennis also touched Jack in a way that he could never get from any other, so he could never quit.

The two fitted each other, Jack the initiator, Ennis the sustainer.

Neither would love, like this, always, without the other.

An interesting POV, lance.  It of course contrasts with my own, but I will admit that if ever there was an sexual attraction on Ennis's part, it was greatly sublimated.  I can see why you would look at it this way. 

Jack was certainly more sexual.  The sexual need was certainly greater with him.  Did he ever have sex with Lureen in the middle and later years, I wonder? 

But to counterbalance Jack's greater sexual need, I think he too had a greater capacity to show affection.  In this sense, the sexual need is just a hint or manifestation of the great potential to love and be loved which he had inside

[tpe]

One more time I hadn't explained myself well enough(my stupid English is always playing me some bad tricks¡ ).In this case,I was referring if you believe that the trust in each other they showed when they were simply friends-and now I'm speaking about friendship only,letting aside the possible attraction there could be...-.got a little diminished when their relationship became deeper.We have seen as someone as silent and lonely as Ennis managed to talk with Jack about facts of his life that never before had shared with anybody;how in the s.s. specially,we are told that they were happy to have found someone who they agreed with.In sum,how their friendship was based in a great trust in one another.
But we have seen also how,with the years passing,they hadn't trust enough as to be naked emotionally before the other in a full sense,and IMO there're several examples:from the very moment they said farewell after having come down from the mountain-an example of lack of communication...) to an inexistent talk about their real feelings and the way they could develop them in the latest years.It's not so illogical that two persons who "work" very well as a friends,lost a considerable part of this emotional intimacy when becoming a couple;several very different and sometimes mixed feelings enter into it them,be jealousy,be fear of losing the beloved person,be taking for granted that everything is said and done between them and that each one knows perfectly well what the other thinks,wishes or fears...So,I keep on asking; do you believe their confidence,trust and friendship diminished when their relationship changed?.

For me, I believe that they consistently held things back over the years, and what we see is their suffering because of it, and not because anything had diminished.  I don't think they were ever tired of seeing each other over the years.  But you can see growing frustration build up as the years passed.  The frustration may have diminished confidence, but I think they intrinsically trusted one another, even though they read many things between the lines.  I don't think the friendship was diminished.  If anything, the need only increased with the passing of time.  At least this is my opinion...

[tpe]

I'm sorry,because in this very moment all of you're going to put me in the "Brokie black list",but it's what I believe; our boys had a lot of trust and communication as a friends,but as a lovers...

Interesting distinction here.

Well, I think for example that Ennis probably suspected things early on with Jack, but kept the peace.  I think this was because he intrinsically trusted the love that bound them, and didn't want to admit even to himself that Jack had to be confronted about them...

[vedrana]

An interesting POV, lance.  It of course contrasts with my own, but I will admit that if ever there was an sexual attraction on Ennis's part, it was greatly sublimated.  I can see why you would look at it this way. 

Jack was certainly more sexual.  The sexual need was certainly greater with him.  Did he ever have sex with Lureen in the middle and later years, I wonder? 

But to counterbalance Jack's greater sexual need, I think he too had a greater capacity to show affection.  In this sense, the sexual need is just a hint or manifestation of the great potential to love and be loved which he had inside

I think that it would be too obvious if he hadn't have sex with his wife even it was rare. But I am almost sure that he had. Otherwise she would have become very suspicious about him. IMO

I would also agree with you on Jack's capability to love and to show affection. With Ennis those moments were so few, but Jack was an open book, you could read all his love from his eyes and deeds. Anyway if we ask ourselves one question that I had once found in another forum - who loved who more?, than my answer would be - the same!

The same quality and quantity of emotions, but shown in completely different, almost opposite way, the same as their characters.

[vedrana]

For me, I believe that they consistently held things back over the years, and what we see is their suffering because of it, and not because anything had diminished.  I don't think they were ever tired of seeing each other over the years.  But you can see growing frustration build up as the years passed.  The frustration may have diminished confidence, but I think they intrinsically trusted one another, even though they read many things between the lines.  I don't think the friendship was diminished.  If anything, the need only increased with the passing of time.  At least this is my opinion...

I am with you here!

[vedrana]

Interesting distinction here.

Well, I think for example that Ennis probably suspected things early on with Jack, but kept the peace.  I think this was because he intrinsically trusted the love that bound them, and didn't want to admit even to himself that Jack had to be confronted about them...

I think so too! Many things between them remained unspoken, because they chose themselves not to speak, not because they didn't trust each other or didn't feel for each other.

[vedrana]

To me, Ennis was more about love. This explains why he never went with another man. Jack was partly about sex, always, so he needed it more, with Ennis or not. The intensity of love from Ennis also touched Jack in a way that he could never get from any other, so he could never quit.

Another thing came to my mind Lance! Even Jack was obviously fooling around during those 4 years, it was Ennis who said that he masturbate (there was another word, but I don't know which one) 100 times thinking of Jack! That sounds very very sexual to me!

The fact that he didn't go with another man is not only because of his pure love, but also because maybe he was afraid to do that. IMO

[tpe]

I think that it would be too obvious if he hadn't have sex with his wife even it was rare. But I am almost sure that he had. Otherwise she would have become very suspicious about him. IMO

I would also agree with you on Jack's capability to love and to show affection. With Ennis those moments were so few, but Jack was an open book, you could read all his love from his eyes and deeds. Anyway if we ask ourselves one question that I had once found in another forum - who loved who more?, than my answer would be - the same!

The same quality and quantity of emotions, but shown in completely different, almost opposite way, the same as their characters.

As with Lureen: I think so too.  I am sure that as in Ennis's case, the sex became less and less frequent as the years went by.

There are many scenes that show Jack's great capacity for affection.  My favorites are of course at the end of the Earl and Rich story, and the way he responds to Ennis during the Dozy Embrace.

And BTW, in those rare moments such as the Dozy Embrace, we also see Ennis respond with great affection.

[tpe]

I think so too! Many things between them remained unspoken, because they chose themselves not to speak, not because they didn't trust each other or didn't feel for each other.

I guess it is more lioke they didn't trust their ability to express things properly -- in the long run, this was very damaging, even if it worked in the short term...

[vedrana]

As with Lureen: I think so too.  I am sure that as in Ennis's case, the sex became less and less frequent as the years went by.

There are many scenes that show Jack's great capacity for affection.  My favorites are of course at the end of the Earl and Rich story, and the way he responds to Ennis during the Dozy Embrace.

And BTW, in those rare moments such as the Dozy Embrace, we also see Ennis respond with great affection.

Ennis said to Alma that he'd be more than happy to "leave her alone". OMG, how little he cared for intimacy with her...

The scene you mentioned is really touching for me, cos Jack had obviously gave a thought to idea of C&C operation before coming to Riverton, as an option if Ennis shows the same respond to his presence as before. After proposing the idea to Ennis in such a tender, yet trembling from failure way, he was shortly and almost rudely rejected. And it is just him, Jack who finds a strength to comfort Ennis, who indeed was stressed at that moment, but it was Jack who really needed the comfort. Unfortunately, none ever to comfort Jack!

[myprivatejack]

Ennis said to Alma that he'd be more than happy to "leave her alone". OMG, how little he cared for intimacy with her...

The scene you mentioned is really touching for me, cos Jack had obviously gave a thought to idea of C&C operation before coming to Riverton, as an option if Ennis shows the same respond to his presence as before. After proposing the idea to Ennis in such a tender, yet trembling from failure way, he was shortly and almost rudely rejected. And it is just him, Jack who finds a strength to comfort Ennis, who indeed was stressed at that moment, but it was Jack who really needed the comfort. Unfortunately, none ever to comfort Jack!

The question is that Jack has a great capacity of affection,and more still to show it in the right moment and in the right way.Whereas Ennis can suffer as much as Jack-or even more,because it's him who always must deny with words,even if he wouldn't deny with his heart,and this is a rather unpleasant situation for anybody...-,but his way of showing it is much more intimate,closed in himself.
So,I don't think that in that very moment Jack needed more comfort -and less still,THE comfort-than Ennis;he had lost a battle but he still didn't know if he had lost the war.But Ennis was fighting between his desires and his fears;his tears and his affirmation of"There's no reins on this one"are a good proof of this.And Jack realised this and understood him well enough as to give him the comfort he needed,as a way of telling to him:-"Don't worry,my love,I'll wait for you.I have enough by knowing you love me,and your words have showed it to me.I'll show you that you mustn't be afraid,as well as we are together..." I don't know if this makes sense again or not...

[vedrana]

The question is that Jack has a great capacity of affection,and more still to show it in the right moment and in the right way.Whereas Ennis can suffer as much as Jack-or even more,because it's him who always must deny with words,even if he wouldn't deny with his heart,and this is a rather unpleasant situation for anybody...-,but his way of showing it is much more intimate,closed in himself.
So,I don't think that in that very moment Jack needed more comfort -and less still,THE comfort-than Ennis;he had lost a battle but he still didn't know if he had lost the war.But Ennis was fighting between his desires and his fears;his tears and his affirmation of"There's no reins on this one"are a good proof of this.And Jack realised this and understood him well enough as to give him the comfort he needed,as a way of telling to him:-"Don't worry,my love,I'll wait for you.I have enough by knowing you love me,and your words have showed it to me.I'll show you that you mustn't be afraid,as well as we are together..." I don't know if this makes sense again or not...

MPJ, it makes a lot of sense and I agree with you. It was just the way you said it. On the other side - Jack has never ever received a comfort from anyone. He was always the one who had to understand, to sense others, to be a good man, a good friend, a good lover, son, husband or son in law... and who understood him? No one!! And it really breaks my heart. It's not fair to such a loving and dear person as Jack! 

[myprivatejack]

MPJ, it makes a lot of sense and I agree with you. It was just the way you said it. On the other side - Jack has never ever received a comfort from anyone. He was always the one who had to understand, to sense others, to be a good man, a good friend, a good lover, son, husband or son in law... and who understood him? No one!! And it really breaks my heart. It's not fair to such a loving and dear person as Jack! 

Yes,Jack is the same as me...unlucky us ¡    Well,speaking seriously,I don't think that Jack necessarily has been the one who HAD to understand; as a matter of fact,a point arrived when he didn't seem to understand Ennis situation-much more important than a simple point of view...-in the confrontation scene.IMO,both of them completed and be lacked of something for the other,and understanding was precisely one of the aspects of their relationship when this duality can be more clearly seen,at least for me...

[vedrana]

Yes,Jack is the same as me...unlucky us ¡    Well,speaking seriously,I don't think that Jack necessarily has been the one who HAD to understand; as a matter of fact,a point arrived when he didn't seem to understand Ennis situation-much more important than a simple point of view...-in the confrontation scene.IMO,both of them completed and be lacked of something for the other,and understanding was precisely one of the aspects of their relationship when this duality can be more clearly seen,at least for me...

FC is the only scene in the whole movie and the only point in Jack's life when he didn't pull back. In fact even then he understood, but he was hurt himself too much to put Ennis' fears in front of his needs. And his needs were always in hunger because of Ennis refusal to face the life. Poor Jack! :\'(

[Tony]

  Have been reading all these recent posts and they are all very heartfelt.  I thought I would add something that recently occurred to me - maybe the combination of friendship, sex, and love, as factors in a relationship, can become so unusual, though they can be defined and explored, on some occasions they shoot a love right through the roof.  Making ordinary descriptions no longer workable.
  Sure, it's important - was Ennis gay?  Sure, it's relevant that the Earl and Rich story caused a toxic background. And very much so, it's important, that pastoral isolation of 2 very lonely, inexperienced guys up on that mountain for the summer.
  But it seems to me, at some point, the varying factors made this THEIR love, and therefore unusually resistant to our wanting them to fit OUR experiences and labels.  In short, not a gay love story (although AP did set out to explore homophobia), and maybe not even a gender transcending love story, with a more universal theme.  Just.....THEIR love story.  No more, no less.  Just a thought, was all.

[atalley]

Tony...I think you've described more of what BBM means to me.  It's all about Jack/Ennis w/ me, as I don't really have anything in my life to relate it to.  It's THEIR specific love story that never leaves me, as I've never seen that much passion and love between 2 people...like you said "they blow the roof off". 

[Tony]

  Thanks, Atalley.  And I especially loved your taking the context of what I said to a love that "blew the roof off".  I like that much better.
 Yeah, everything's there, including what we've been pursuing on these threads.  But I appreciate so very much your seeing some part of this as their's, their love, independent of everything else we, ourselves try to relate to.  That may be, after all, what they would have said: this was their own and no other's.

[tpe]

Ennis said to Alma that he'd be more than happy to "leave her alone". OMG, how little he cared for intimacy with her...

The scene you mentioned is really touching for me, cos Jack had obviously gave a thought to idea of C&C operation before coming to Riverton, as an option if Ennis shows the same respond to his presence as before. After proposing the idea to Ennis in such a tender, yet trembling from failure way, he was shortly and almost rudely rejected. And it is just him, Jack who finds a strength to comfort Ennis, who indeed was stressed at that moment, but it was Jack who really needed the comfort. Unfortunately, none ever to comfort Jack!

To a large extent, we indeed rarely see Jack being comforted -- perhaps that's the reason why he had a great capacity for affection: he understood the need.

[tpe]

The question is that Jack has a great capacity of affection,and more still to show it in the right moment and in the right way.Whereas Ennis can suffer as much as Jack-or even more,because it's him who always must deny with words,even if he wouldn't deny with his heart,and this is a rather unpleasant situation for anybody...-,but his way of showing it is much more intimate,closed in himself.
So,I don't think that in that very moment Jack needed more comfort -and less still,THE comfort-than Ennis;he had lost a battle but he still didn't know if he had lost the war.But Ennis was fighting between his desires and his fears;his tears and his affirmation of"There's no reins on this one"are a good proof of this.And Jack realised this and understood him well enough as to give him the comfort he needed,as a way of telling to him:-"Don't worry,my love,I'll wait for you.I have enough by knowing you love me,and your words have showed it to me.I'll show you that you mustn't be afraid,as well as we are together..." I don't know if this makes sense again or not...

I do think that both of them needed as much comfort as the other.  Alas, I am not so sure if Jack got the comfort he sorely needed.  Perhaps in comforting Ennis, he comforted himself.

[tpe]

  Have been reading all these recent posts and they are all very heartfelt.  I thought I would add something that recently occurred to me - maybe the combination of friendship, sex, and love, as factors in a relationship, can become so unusual, though they can be defined and explored, on some occasions they shoot a love right through the roof.  Making ordinary descriptions no longer workable.
  Sure, it's important - was Ennis gay?  Sure, it's relevant that the Earl and Rich story caused a toxic background. And very much so, it's important, that pastoral isolation of 2 very lonely, inexperienced guys up on that mountain for the summer.
  But it seems to me, at some point, the varying factors made this THEIR love, and therefore unusually resistant to our wanting them to fit OUR experiences and labels.  In short, not a gay love story (although AP did set out to explore homophobia), and maybe not even a gender transcending love story, with a more universal theme.  Just.....THEIR love story.  No more, no less.  Just a thought, was all.

In bare essence, it is a story about the love and friendship of two individuals.  But because they are individuals like each of us, we tend to see ourselves and others we know and love through them.  In this sense, it shouldn't surprise us that their love story becomes ours.

[vedrana]

To a large extent, we indeed rarely see Jack being comforted -- perhaps that's the reason why he had a great capacity for affection: he understood the need.

I believe that it should be the opposite. The person who never gets a compassion from others can not easily develop that feeling in himself. But Jack was Jack - the best he could be. It was in his nature to be so loving and caring person! That's why I adore this character so much!

[vedrana]

In bare essence, it is a story about the love and friendship of two individuals.  But because they are individuals like each of us, we tend to see ourselves and others we know and love through them.  In this sense, it shouldn't surprise us that their love story becomes ours.

It is amazing how this particular story found it's way to our hearts transmitting us emotionally to Brokeback, to Ennis and Jack's love story which so smoothly became ours! 

[tpe]

I believe that it should be the opposite. The person who never gets a compassion from others can not easily develop that feeling in himself. But Jack was Jack - the best he could be. It was in his nature to be so loving and caring person! That's why I adore this character so much!

In my experience, when we are deprived of something, we tend to treasure it more.  A person raised under difficult circumstances is more likely to appreciate the simple pleasures of life.  A person who is unloved can be so loving because he knows how hard it feels to be unloved.

[myprivatejack]

In my experience, when we are deprived of something, we tend to treasure it more.  A person raised under difficult circumstances is more likely to appreciate the simple pleasures of life.  A person who is unloved can be so loving because he knows how hard it feels to be unloved.

AMEN TO THIS ¡¡¡  ( ( ( And Jack's case was a real case of not being loved as he needed from his childhood.When things are so,a person only could react or copying what he has seen in his own case,or being extremely loving and caring.

[vedrana]

In my experience, when we are deprived of something, we tend to treasure it more.  A person raised under difficult circumstances is more likely to appreciate the simple pleasures of life.  A person who is unloved can be so loving because he knows how hard it feels to be unloved.

AMEN TO THIS ¡¡¡  ( ( ( And Jack's case was a real case of not being loved as he needed from his childhood.When things are so,a person only could react or copying what he has seen in his own case,or being extremely loving and caring.

I have to disagree with both! 
If child received no love, he is not capable of loving. Child is like an empty bowl, in which we have to put the most precious ingredient of all - love! If child doesn't receive love, he/she would grow up to be a very empty person without a real capability to love. Children should learn how to love, and that's something common. Why children from broken and emotionless families without mother's or father's love raise their children in the same manner -cos they received no love.

But I believe that Jack had his Ma's love, and that's what made him a loving person. Without his Ma, he wouldn't be able to treat people so nicely. But the most of all, he was just that kind of person/character. Loving, tender, understanding, warm... Uh, did anyone notice how I like this guy?