Topic: "Rodeo, the Pissant Combine Salesman"

[tpe]

Yes, they were not understood.  Both men seem to be looked at as the alternative, a way out by their wives.   Some women do get married as a way of getting out some present situation they find themselves to be in.

Lureen might have wanted to get out from under the thumb of LD.  LaShawn probably thought Randall was a step up, but wound up in a poky place like Childress.  The men they were married too weren't as important as being married into a perceived better situation.  Neither woman had an idea of the men they married to.

So here they were sparring with each other, Lureen playing Queen Bee making sure LaShawn knew her place. And while all this was going on. Randall and Jack were doing their own sparring, Jack increasingly uncomfortable with Randall stares, not being put off by it, but turned on by it.  Poor Jack, he really needed Ennis at that moment.  JMO.

There was a lot going at that table that night.

Certainly, I think that both the wives thought their respective husbands to be great disappointments.  Because of this, perhaps both Randall and Jack had to anchor their sense of self-worth somewhere else.  As for Lureen and LaShawn, they certainly didn't have a good idea about who their husbands were.  Later in life, perhaps they really didn't care.  The latter made it much easier for Jack and Randall, I suppose. Even if the wives knew, I wonder how much they really would have cared after the initial shock, so long as Randall and Jack were discreet enough...

[Matt Nasty]

Certainly, I think that both the wives thought their respective husbands to be great disappointments.  Because of this, perhaps both Randall and Jack had to anchor their sense of self-worth somewhere else.  As for Lureen and LaShawn, they certainly didn't have a good idea about who their husbands were.  Later in life, perhaps they really didn't care.  The latter made it much easier for Jack and Randall, I suppose. Even if the wives knew, I wonder how much they really would have cared after the initial shock, so long as Randall and Jack were discreet enough...

well it seemed to me that lureen knew about jack, it seemed quite apaprent on the phone to Ennis after jacks death...

[tpe]

well it seemed to me that lureen knew about jack, it seemed quite apaprent on the phone to Ennis after jacks death...

Well, she could have known because of the possible circumstances of Jack's death (assuming you believe in one interpretation -- that it wasn't a car accident).  But prior to this, we are not totally sure, I guess...

[Matt Nasty]

Well, she could have known because of the possible circumstances of Jack's death (assuming you believe in one interpretation -- that it wasn't a car accident).  But prior to this, we are not totally sure, I guess...

yer but i think some of the little looks lureen gve jack when Ennis was mentioned over the years, it jsut seemed like she knew, or at least knew there was something...

[tpe]

yer but i think some of the little looks lureen gve jack when Ennis was mentioned over the years, it jsut seemed like she knew, or at least knew there was something...

Perhaps. perhaps...    Wonderful, isn't it: how the film keeps on tantalizing us with the possibilities...

[Matt Nasty]

Perhaps. perhaps...    Wonderful, isn't it: how the film keeps on tantalizing us with the possibilities...

yes its amazing

[aintfoolin]

Yes, they were not understood.  Both men seem to be looked at as the alternative, a way out by their wives.   Some women do get married as a way of getting out some present situation they find themselves to be in.

Lureen might have wanted to get out from under the thumb of LD.  LaShawn probably thought Randall was a step up, but wound up in a poky place like Childress.  The men they were married too weren't as important as being married into a perceived better situation.  Neither woman had an idea of the men they married to.

So here they were sparring with each other, Lureen playing Queen Bee making sure LaShawn knew her place. And while all this was going on. Randall and Jack were doing their own sparring, Jack increasingly uncomfortable with Randall stares, not being put off by it, but turned on by it.  Poor Jack, he really needed Ennis at that moment.  JMO.

There was a lot going at that table that night.





   

 MG.

I'm glad you clarified that Jack removed himself because he was turned on by Randall's stares. I think so too. Liking the attention a little too much. Randall got the picture real quick imo. He was totally checkin Jack out.

And as was said before Randall sensed that Jack and Lureen were at odds. I think it ironic that Jack got to actually meet both his lovers's wives, even danced with LaShawn!! Do you feel Jack had any romantic notions for LaShawn ?   or Jack befriending the wife to assure he got the husband later?  To keep these secrets hidden, he had to be a little calculating , not to get caught, some major maneuvering to keep Lureen and LaShawn + Ennis in the dark? Gawd I hate to think it sorry. Old man Twist did say Jack was thinking about leaving Lureen, and bringing a "ranch neighbor" up to LF, build a cabin etc... Jack could talk a blue steak too, but Jesus, even during the dance she never shut up. To me , it does'nt make sense to lead the wife on in an affair , then leave with the Husband. Maybe I sound judgemental. of Jack, don't mean to sorry ..just sayin.
Gawd, how did he explain the situation about Randall to his parents, especially Mrs. Twist after so much talk about Ennis and the shirts. Nevertheless, it was Ennis who showed up to get the ashes, not Randall.

Ennis told the old man it was what Jack's wife said he wanted. His respose? " he thought he was too godam-n special to be buried in the family plot"  A dig at Lureen, Jack and the money? Sounds like he apparently did'nt  think too highly of Jack's people in Childress. Probably jealous because Jack turned out to be  a rich Texas businessman, and he was'nt. A few thoughts.

[manhattangirl]

MG.

I'm glad you clarified that Jack removed himself because he was turned on by Randall's stares. I think so too. Liking the attention a little too much. Randall got the picture real quick imo. He was totally checkin Jack out.

And as was said before Randall sensed that Jack and Lureen were at odds. I think it ironic that Jack got to actually meet both his lovers's wives, even danced with LaShawn!! Do you feel Jack had any romantic notions for LaShawn ?  or Jack befriending the wife to assure he got the husband later?  To keep these secrets hidden, he had to be a little calculating , not to get caught, some major maneuvering to keep Lureen and LaShawn + Ennis in the dark? Gawd I hate to think it sorry. Old man Twist did say Jack was thinking about leaving Lureen, and bringing a "ranch neighbor" up to LF, build a cabin etc... Jack could talk a blue steak too, but Jesus, even during the dance she never shut up. To me , it does'nt make sense to lead the wife on in an affair , then leave with the Husband. Maybe I sound judgemental. of Jack, don't mean to sorry ..just sayin.
Gawd, how did he explain the situation about Randall to his parents, especially Mrs. Twist after so much talk about Ennis and the shirts. Nevertheless, it was Ennis who showed up to get the ashes, not Randall.

Ennis told the old man it was what Jack's wife said he wanted. His respose? " he thought he was too godam-n special to be buried in the family plot"  A dig at Lureen, Jack and the money? Sounds like he apparently did'nt  think too highly of Jack's people in Childress. Probably jealous because Jack turned out to be  a rich Texas businessman, and he was'nt. A few thoughts.

My take is a little different.  As far as Jack's father goes, his perception of Jack thinking he was so "G.D." special  I think is more of a comment on the relationship between Jack and his mother.  There might of been a competition, apparently Mom Twist and Jack shared secrets, had a close relationship that excluded Old man Twist.   Jack came between them, apparently the old man felt a great deal of resentment towards Jack. I do think it was easy for Jack to speak about Randall and Ennis to his mother.

Jack's Mom was a "cool customer", she felt Ennis out, see where he was coming from as far as her son was concern.  She started him on his way, by letting him go to Jack's room.  When he came back with shirts, she understood who loved her son.  (sorry for going on a rant about it). 

At this point in Jack's life it didn't matter about Lureen, or LaShawn.  It was the longing for Ennis, and the availability of Randall, whose very tempting invitation was desirable alternative than those lonely, punishing trips to Mexico.  No more anonymous sex with different men, which might have made him feel the painful reality of Ennis absence even more.  Just maybe this man could be that life he wanted so much, and keep him out Mexico, even lessening the pain of being without Ennis.  Mom may have know all about this struggle in her son's life. 

But like the old saying goes "mother knows best".     

[tpe]

Ennis told the old man it was what Jack's wife said he wanted. His respose? " he thought he was too godam-n special to be buried in the family plot"  A dig at Lureen, Jack and the money? Sounds like he apparently did'nt  think too highly of Jack's people in Childress. Probably jealous because Jack turned out to be  a rich Texas businessman, and he was'nt. A few thoughts.

You know, I had never though carefully about any possible tension between Lureen and Jack's folks -- although it would seem "obvious", given the little details in the movie, such as what you say here.  I think there is much more to the subject.  Thanks for bringing this up!

[tpe]

My take is a little different.  As far as Jack's father goes, his perception of Jack thinking he was so "G.D." special  I think is more of a comment on the relationship between Jack and his mother.  There might of been a competition, apparently Mom Twist and Jack shared secrets, had a close relationship that excluded Old man Twist.   Jack came between them, apparently the old man felt a great deal of resentment towards Jack. I do think it was easy for Jack to speak about Randall and Ennis to his mother.

Jack's Mom was a "cool customer", she felt Ennis out, see where he was coming from as far as her son was concern.  She started him on his way, by letting him go to Jack's room.  When he came back with shirts, she understood who loved her son.  (sorry for going on a rant about it). 

At this point in Jack's life it didn't matter about Lureen, or LaShawn.  It was the longing for Ennis, and the availability of Randall, whose very tempting invitation was desirable alternative than those lonely, punishing trips to Mexico.  No more anonymous sex with different men, which might have made him feel the painful reality of Ennis absence even more.  Just maybe this man could be that life he wanted so much, and keep him out Mexico, even lessening the pain of being without Ennis.  Mom may have know all about this struggle in her son's life. 

But like the old saying goes "mother knows best".     

How INTERESTING!

So you read it as a possible point of tension between the husband and the wife?  I admit that I had not thought about this either.  And we do know that there was tension between the two of them -- at least from the scene when Ennis visits LF...

This rides on the premise that Jack had always identified better with his mother, and that like the "rest" of the world (i.e., with the exception of the mother and Ennis), everyone else didn't seem to believe in Jack, correct?

[manhattangirl]

How INTERESTING!

So you read it as a possible point of tension between the husband and the wife?  I admit that I had not thought about this either.  And we do know that there was tension between the two of them -- at least from the scene when Ennis visits LF...

This rides on the premise that Jack had always identified better with his mother, and that like the "rest" of the world (i.e., with the exception of the mother and Ennis), everyone else didn't seem to believe in Jack, correct?

Yes, but she had to know first if Ennis did really loved and understood her son. When he came down with the shirts in hand she knew he did love Jack, and the importance of what he was holding, she found an ally. 

       

[tpe]

Yes, but she had to know first if Ennis did really loved and understood her son. When he came down with the shirts in hand she knew he did love Jack, and the importance of what he was holding, she found an ally. 

Food for thought, MG.  You read it as something of a test (sorry if that sound not exactly right, but I hope you get what I mean.) 

With reference to the original topic, it would mean that his mother perhaps understood Jack better than most?  I do tend to think sometimes that the mother understood the son better than Ennis -- at least until the discovery of the shirts.  It was as if she wanted to share with his the key to understanding her sone.  Without this key, I don't think Jack would have been understood at all.  As everyone else seemed to think, he was just a dreamer..., with no real focal point.

[manhattangirl]

Food for thought, MG.  You read it as something of a test (sorry if that sound not exactly right, but I hope you get what I mean.) 

With reference to the original topic, it would mean that his mother perhaps understood Jack better than most?  I do tend to think sometimes that the mother understood the son better than Ennis -- at least until the discovery of the shirts.  It was as if she wanted to share with his the key to understanding her sone.  Without this key, I don't think Jack would have been understood at all.  As everyone else seemed to think, he was just a dreamer..., with no real focal point.

Yes, how else was she going to know if this man, whom her son loved so much, loved him in the same way, the shirts and only the shirts could answer that question.  The fact he found the shirts, he understood for the first time he was loved.  When he went downstairs with them, the bag she gotten without even being asked, the loving care of just placing the shirts in that bag.  The thanks Ennis gave her at the door. 

All of this done without directly referencing the shirts themselves, but the meaning behind it was understood by both.  Now compare that with the old man, who thought of his son with disgust, who had big ideas and nothing to show for it,  too "G.D. special", well,  he was gonna show him/ his mother he wasn't by burying his ashes on the ranch. 

The last indignity he could offer up to his rival.   

[babytammy7]

That's horrible MG... 

Not even when Jack was dead the old Twist showed the minimun affection for his son.....Not only he was gonna do what Jack wished about his ashes, but also he was insulting him before his best friend....That asshole didn't even respect his son in death.
That's so heartbreaking and sad.... :\'( :\'( :\'( Jack never got what he wanted in life and now, because of that stupid man, he didn't got what he had wanted for his death....

Damn...Life was so unfair with my poor Jack.  :\'( :\'( :\'( He always gave but never got.

[Matt Nasty]

That's horrible MG... 

Not even when Jack was dead the old Twist showed the minimun affection for his son.....Not only he was gonna do what Jack wished about his ashes, but also he was insulting him before his best friend....That asshole didn't even respect his son in death.
That's so heartbreaking and sad.... :\'( :\'( :\'( Jack never got what he wanted in life and now, because of that stupid man, he didn't got what he had wanted for his death....

Damn...Life was so unfair with my poor Jack.  :\'( :\'( :\'( He always gave but never got.

:\'( :\'( :\'( yep that was jack

[tpe]

All of this done without directly referencing the shirts themselves, but the meaning behind it was understood by both.  Now compare that with the old man, who thought of his son with disgust, who had big ideas and nothing to show for it,  too "G.D. special", well,  he was gonna show him/ his mother he wasn't by burying his ashes on the ranch. 

The last indignity he could offer up to his rival.   

To be "fair" to John Twist, almost everyone else didn't get Jack.  What was a disappointment was that he was his father, and should have somehow understood.  But I think he remained totally ignorant about the shirts or their significance.  If he ever knoew about what was really behind the bond between his son and Ennis, then he chose to ignore it.

[myprivatejack]

I think OMT was a stubborn man with a limited horizon who believed that everybody was like him;even his son's wishes of going out from his town's few opportunities was a motif of depiction for him.Because he never had appreciate him,never had treated him like he deserved...Everything that was in rapport with Jack was object of his jokes,when not depiction or even hate;his work,his rodeo skills,his marriage,his own son,and of course,his friends.I think he knew or at least,guessed what kind of relationship there was between Jack and Ennis,but this was only a main reason to depict it and forget it;what's more,I think that this was as a reaffirmation of his untrust about Jack,a real knowledge that he wasn't and never would be as he really wanted his son was.For this reason,this always wanted above all to have people's approval,and also Ennis's when they met;I think he had spent half his life trying to show Ennis that he was worth of sharing his life with and,somehow,took his friend's denials as a demeanour in his own value and self esteem.

[manhattangirl]

To be "fair" to John Twist, almost everyone else didn't get Jack.  What was a disappointment was that he was his father, and should have somehow understood.  But I think he remained totally ignorant about the shirts or their significance.  If he ever knoew about what was really behind the bond between his son and Ennis, then he chose to ignore it.

It was more like a quid pro quo between mom and dad.   Ennis did walk out that house with shirts in his hand, and Jack's ashes were buried on the ranch.  The old man understood all too well, (I believe).   He knew when to hit and where it hurts.  The mention of  another in Jack's life, his attempts to make something out his life, as far as the old man goes he didn't make much of it.  Look at Jack he is the one who actually suffered the world, more so than Ennis.  The scorn of Aguirre, the demeaning name of Rodeo, by his father-in-law, being thought of as a pissant by people in business, and the thought of BBM as being a pretend place by Lureen.

It's funny how the old man represents all of how the world saw Jack, except for the two people in his life that  loved him.   

JMO

[tpe]

I think OMT was a stubborn man with a limited horizon who believed that everybody was like him;even his son's wishes of going out from his town's few opportunities was a motif of depiction for him.Because he never had appreciate him,never had treated him like he deserved...Everything that was in rapport with Jack was object of his jokes,when not depiction or even hate;his work,his rodeo skills,his marriage,his own son,and of course,his friends.I think he knew or at least,guessed what kind of relationship there was between Jack and Ennis,but this was only a main reason to depict it and forget it;what's more,I think that this was as a reaffirmation of his untrust about Jack,a real knowledge that he wasn't and never would be as he really wanted his son was.For this reason,this always wanted above all to have people's approval,and also Ennis's when they met;I think he had spent half his life trying to show Ennis that he was worth of sharing his life with and,somehow,took his friend's denials as a demeanour in his own value and self esteem.

I do think that itf there was any doubt in Jack's part about his own  self-worth, then it may be attributed to the lack of understanding on his father's part.  It is a tribute to Jack that he continued to try to prove everyone wrong, even if he inevitably didn't exactly bring his dreams to fruition.

[tpe]

It was more like a quid pro quo between mom and dad.   Ennis did walk out that house with shirts in his hand, and Jack's ashes were buried on the ranch.  The old man understood all too well, (I believe).   He knew when to hit and where it hurts.  The mention of  another in Jack's life, his attempts to make something out his life, as far as the old man goes he didn't make much of it.  Look at Jack he is the one who actually suffered the world, more so than Ennis.  The scorn of Aguirre, the demeaning name of Rodeo, by his father-in-law, being thought of as a pissant by people in business, and the thought of BBM as being a pretend place by Lureen.

It's funny how the old man represents all of how the world saw Jack, except for the two people in his life that  loved him.   

JMO

But did you think OMT did understand the significance of the shirts?  I somehow feel that if he did, he might not have allowed Ennis to leave with them -- out of spite?

[Matt Nasty]

But did you think OMT did understand the significance of the shirts?  I somehow feel that if he did, he might not have allowed Ennis to leave with them -- out of spite?

i think you are probably right with that... but i wonder if OMT has asked for them to be not taken if Ennis would have taken them anyway?...

[babytammy7]

i think you are probably right with that... but i wonder if OMT has asked for them to be not taken if Ennis would have taken them anyway?...

When Ennis left Jack's room and went into the kitchen OMT looked at him, but Ennis gave him a quick nasty look, like saying "don't you dare". I'm sure Ennis had taken anyway, no matter what. And, well, at least one of those shirts was his, so OMT had not right to have it. They were an emotional testament from Jack and it was for the one who had been in his mind, heart and soul for 20 years.

[myprivatejack]

i think you are probably right with that... but i wonder if OMT has asked for them to be not taken if Ennis would have taken them anyway?...

I also think Thomas could be right in that OMT didn't know or understand the meaning of the two shirts.But I tend to believe that it was so great the depiction that he had for his son-and mainly knowing his tendences-that they didn't matter to him;neither if Ennis took them nor if they stayed at home.The same than nothing in rapport with Jack had really mattered to him when he was alive.

[Matt Nasty]

I also think Thomas could be right in that OMT didn't know or understand the meaning of the two shirts.But I tend to believe that it was so great the depiction that he had for his son-and mainly knowing his tendences-that they didn't matter to him;neither if Ennis took them nor if they stayed at home.The same than nothing in rapport with Jack had really mattered to him when he was alive.

its amazing how OMT and jack were even related jack and him were so different, jack was so giving and kind...he jsut wasnt. jack was also very different to ma twist IMO she was such a pushover... and ive never seen jack as that type well sometimes with ennis he made sacrifices but he was never pushed over per say and he deffinatly didnt hesitate to give his opinion.

[manhattangirl]

But did you think OMT did understand the significance of the shirts? I somehow feel that if he did, he might not have allowed Ennis to leave with them -- out of spite?

He may have, and I think he conceded to his wife.  But that's not what was important to him,  the spiteful thing,  the point that he wanted to make was not to have Jack's ashes brought to Brokeback Mountain, the one place Jack wanted to be.  The old man wanted to prove that Jack was not so G.D special.  The shirts meant nothing to him, the meaning of the shirts meant nothing to him. 
 

[aintfoolin]

Don't think OMT knew about the shirts. I feel the secret of them was only between Jack and his mom. She knew they were there, hidden away in a place where they would remain in all likelyhood.. undisturbed. I doubt OMT would snoop around Jack's room  looking for hidden shirts, and they were  not in plain view. Mrs. Twist is the one who prompted Ennis to go up to Jack's room and look around. Only Jack, moms and Ennis knew the real significance of the shirts imo.
 I'd hate to think that OMT knew of them, and maybe he'd destroy them or not allow them into the house because it was something Jack cherished. I just feel that if the old man knew, he would take them as an opportunity to hurt Jack and Ennis, cause Mrs. Twist problems etc... Apply his own brand of disapproval on them. He only glanced at what Ennis had in his hands. It would not dawn on him that two shirts from Jack's room had any significance to him imo, maybe as said above that perhaps  he thought it was clothing  Jack had borrowed from Ennis.
Mrs. Twist knew to keep this secret between her and Jack until they found their rightful intended owner. When Ennis drove  up, it was she who came outside to greet him. Not the old man. She knew who he was and no doubt was releived to finally meet him. She could finally give him a gift from Jack, beyond death.

I like the way she just basically cut OMT off when he mentioned Randall to Ennis, perhaps to hurt him. Sent Ennis up to Jack's room to find the truth of the matter despite Randall and what OMT was implying , ....the truth and redemption for Ennis was in the shirts. Jack must have confided in his mother who loved her son. After all is said and done, it's Ennis he loved.

[manhattangirl]

Jack's room in itself was a key, it was left the way it was when he was boy, the old man could have used it for storage, but it wasn't,  his mother kept it that way, and all that was in it, and Jack appreciated that. 
 
Would Ennis have found the shirts, would he understand it meaning, I'm just saying she would have packed them up and gave to him at the door. The beauty of it all was that Ennis had to find it and  understand for himself what it meant, and he realize that Jack did love him, and understanding it all on his own. 

After that and the shirts were place in the bag, the old man said, " I tell you what, we got a plot, and he's going in it".   Was a deal struck?

Poor Jack, wasn't this kind of his story?  Never really getting what he wanted.  JMO.

[tpe]

i think you are probably right with that... but i wonder if OMT has asked for them to be not taken if Ennis would have taken them anyway?...

I suspect that Ennis would not have taken them.  In some ways, Jack was more decisive than Ennis -- in spite of his being looked down upon and castigated (even by Ennis, at times) for dreaming dreams.

[tpe]

When Ennis left Jack's room and went into the kitchen OMT looked at him, but Ennis gave him a quick nasty look, like saying "don't you dare". I'm sure Ennis had taken anyway, no matter what. And, well, at least one of those shirts was his, so OMT had not right to have it. They were an emotional testament from Jack and it was for the one who had been in his mind, heart and soul for 20 years.

Interesting -- I interpretetd it as a frightened look -- afraid that OMT would take the shirts away from him, and he instinctively held it away from him.

Not to bring this thread out of topic, but I think OMT didn't understand/know the shirts and their significance.  Jack was always taken for granted or ignored -- even his father probably didn't realize what he had in his closet or even his room.

[tpe]

I also think Thomas could be right in that OMT didn't know or understand the meaning of the two shirts.But I tend to believe that it was so great the depiction that he had for his son-and mainly knowing his tendences-that they didn't matter to him;neither if Ennis took them nor if they stayed at home.The same than nothing in rapport with Jack had really mattered to him when he was alive.

Interesting point, MPJ.  So you would think that if OMT took the shirts from Ennis, it would be out of pure spite?  I am biased in thinking that OMT probably didn't care that much for what his son did or wanted -- but I may be wrong in this...