Topic: Joe Aquirre's comment and observations

[tpe]

Maybe he's just one of those people who hates to deal with awkward/embarrassing situations, specially when any kind of sex is involved, and finds it easier to get rid of them quickly on any pretext, after which he doesn't need to think of it again. Then Jack pops up next year and reminds him of what happened, which is perhaps why he's so unpleasant to him.

If his macho buddies say anything, he can claim that Ennis and Jack were poor at the job, and that won't involve him in any difficult explanations of what/how he saw the summer before. He  wouldn't want them thinking he was the kid of weirdo who hired queers, or had them coming back and hanging round his trailer, would he?

I suspect that Aguirre was uncomfortable talking about it with others.  But we really don't know whether he actually did.  It was convenient for him to simply dismiss Ennis and Jack as totally incompetent, even though some of his restrictions were unreasonable.

[myprivatejack]

I suspect that Aguirre was uncomfortable talking about it with others.  But we really don't know whether he actually did.  It was convenient for him to simply dismiss Ennis and Jack as totally incompetent, even though some of his restrictions were unreasonable.

I tend to agree with Welshwitch in that he preferred not to talk about the case in order to save his reputation and image while avoided gossip and jokes about that. It was better for him dismissing them alleging they were incompetents,what is not very far from truth in his mind,because they could spend more time "steam the rose" than looking for sheep.And that's was clearly against Aguirre's interests,more than the simply fact of being or not homophobe.

[aintfoolin]

I tend to agree with Welshwitch in that he preferred not to talk about the case in order to save his reputation and image while avoided gossip and jokes about that. It was better for him dismissing them alleging they were incompetents,what is not very far from truth in his mind,because they could spend more time "steam the rose" than looking for sheep.And that's was clearly against Aguirre's interests,more than the simply fact of being or not homophobe.

But yet, I feel he was a homophobe. If he was'nt , he would've overlooked what he saw on Brokeback while *spying* on them. He hired Jack the previous summer, hired him again though 42 sheep got killed under Jack's watch in which he claimed incompetence.  It was only when he discovered they were lovers did he feel the need to not ever hire Jack again, even without Ennis, but made it a point to humiliate Jack in the process when he asked about Ennis.. Sure he kept his mouth shut to avoid gossip which in their culture would possibly be bad for business, but I can't dismiss his tone to Jack saying "now get the hell outta my trailor". That was sorely his own personal homophobic feeling coming into play. MO.

[myprivatejack]

But yet, I feel he was a homophobe. If he was'nt , he would've overlooked what he saw on Brokeback while *spying* on them. He hired Jack the previous summer, hired him again though 42 sheep got killed under Jack's watch in which he claimed incompetence.  It was only when he discovered they were lovers did he feel the need to not ever hire Jack again, even without Ennis, but made it a point to humiliate Jack in the process when he asked about Ennis.. Sure he kept his mouth shut to avoid gossip which in their culture would possibly be bad for business, but I can't dismiss his tone to Jack saying "now get the hell outta my trailor". That was sorely his own personal homophobic feeling coming into play. MO.

Of course,I haven't said that he wasn't a homophobe,but that two workers "!@#$ in the corners" ended by not looking for their work the same than two workers who don't ...And that this was against his economical interests, matters more to him than the simple fact of being homophobe,because I'm sure that he was more worried about his business than about their sexual life...As Thomas and me have remarked before,where're so many ways of being homophobe,among them the raw violence is sometimes the easiest to deal with.And,of course, Aguirre was homophobe when he humiliated Jack for being gay ,more than for being a bad or good worker;the same than maybe he wouldn't have contracted him for the problem with the mixed sheep even if he hadn't known his sexual tendency.

[athena0204]

I feel that Aguirre just uses Jack's incompetence as an excuse. The real reason he didn't hire him again was not because of incompetence, it was because Jack was gay. I agree with manhattangirl in that I don't think Aguirre would have been ticked off as he was about losing his sheep if he hadn't known that Ennis and Jack were lovers. Sure he was upset that he lost some of his sheep, but he wouldn't have made such a big deal about it if were just that matter. I think he uses it as an excuse and the way he treats Jack lets us know that.

[myprivatejack]

I feel that Aguirre just uses Jack's incompetence as an excuse. The real reason he didn't hire him again was not because of incompetence, it was because Jack was gay. I agree with manhattangirl in that I don't think Aguirre would have been ticked off as he was about losing his sheep if he hadn't known that Ennis and Jack were lovers. Sure he was upset that he lost some of his sheep, but he wouldn't have made such a big deal about it if were just that matter. I think he uses it as an excuse and the way he treats Jack lets us know that.

I tend to think that the problem with the mixing sheep would be a reason for not hiring them again,but in this case was agravated for the discover he did.And that this discover was enough as to humiliate and despise Jack at the moment of reject his new hire,in the way he did.

[tpe]

I think we here agree that there is an element of homophobia that motivates Aguirre (perhaps it is the central motivation behind his actions), but that it was convenient for him that he also disapproved of the way Ennis and Jack did their job, so there was no conflict here. 

That they given him no excuse to be dissatisfied, we would have perhaps seen a more explicit expression of homophobia, although I prefer it ambiguous -- the way the film showed it.

Still, were they really incompetent?  I think they did their best, according to the given circumstances in many situations.  However, they did violate Aguirre's command that one always sleeps with the sheep.  This was probably enough reason for him to consider them untrustworthy (even though what he was asking for was against rules, in any case.)

[Matt Nasty]

I think we here agree that there is an element of homophobia that motivates Aguirre (perhaps it is the central motivation behind his actions), but that it was convenient for him that he also disapproved of the way Ennis and Jack did their job, so there was no conflict here. 

That they given him no excuse to be dissatisfied, we would have perhaps seen a more explicit expression of homophobia, although I prefer it ambiguous -- the way the film showed it.

Still, were they really incompetent?  I think they did their best, according to the given circumstances in many situations.  However, they did violate Aguirre's command that one always sleeps with the sheep.  This was probably enough reason for him to consider them untrustworthy (even though what he was asking for was against rules, in any case.)

hmm this intrests me very much because its almost like they may have stayed both at cmp which went against aguiires request but then can aguirre really complain against this when his request was really doing the same to the people above him as the fact jack and ennis disobeyed. i do think aguirre was homophobic but i also dont think this is the main reason he didnt re-hire jack or ennis, i think the fact they disobyed him was his main reason even though he was being a hypocrit in this.
i think when he didnt re-hire jack the next year and he made the comment about him and ennis, i think this may have been aguirre's way of trying to offend jack knowing just commenting on the fact jack did the job badly wouldnt hurt him in the same way. one thing that is sure even if aguirre wasnt a strong homophobe he was not a nice person. this is just a theory of mine and i have many. i deffinatly know beleive he was homophobic but too what extent im not sure yet.

[tpe]

I don't really know what the primary motivation was for Aguirre not hiring them back.  But I do think that he had mixed motibvations.  Certainly he diodn't think that they were reliable, in the sense that they disobeyed his orders, even though they were unreasonable.

[myprivatejack]

I don't really know what the primary motivation was for Aguirre not hiring them back.  But I do think that he had mixed motibvations.  Certainly he diodn't think that they were reliable, in the sense that they disobeyed his orders, even though they were unreasonable.

What a "business man"-let's call Aguirre in such a pleasant way...- wants and looks for are workers who obey their orders,they fulfill them and render in the end.He could feel angry because they disobeyed and because the result was clearly a lack of yield-to say it some way...-.But we must add that the workers were lovers,another situation that was in damage of this yield and that,moreover,Aguirre didn't understand nor respect(and didn't want to understand or respect either).Something that could easily make him loss "points" in his reputation and image.I think that all is enough for him.

[aintfoolin]

hmm this intrests me very much because its almost like they may have stayed both at cmp which went against aguiires request but then can aguirre really complain against this when his request was really doing the same to the people above him as the fact jack and ennis disobeyed. i do think aguirre was homophobic but i also dont think this is the main reason he didnt re-hire jack or ennis, i think the fact they disobyed him was his main reason even though he was being a hypocrit in this.
i think when he didnt re-hire jack the next year and he made the comment about him and ennis, i think this may have been aguirre's way of trying to offend jack knowing just commenting on the fact jack did the job badly wouldnt hurt him in the same way. one thing that is sure even if aguirre wasnt a strong homophobe he was not a nice person. this is just a theory of mine and i have many. i deffinatly know beleive he was homophobic but too what extent im not sure yet.

 Exactly, Aguirre was demanding they go against the law himself. A reason why he did'nt want it getting around . Sure, he was pissed that Jack and Eniis went against his rules but if word got back to the Forest Srvc., that he was going against their rules, he could be out of business fast.

It was only when he got one of them alone (Jack) did he let him know he knew. He never sited incompetence as the reason he would'nt hire Jack back or go into anything  specifically regarding them both breaking the rules when he could have, as a reason for not hiring him. He seemed more upset about WHY they were in camp together. What happened the previous summer when 42 sheep were killed, he also ruled Jack incompetent in his job, blaming  him for the loss, but he did hire Jack back again regardless.  Aguirre was very aware how dangerous the  unpredictable,mountainous weather could become. It's totally  unreasonable to expect perfection under these circumstances.  ( gawd, all that traveling in one day!)Truth is,  he never thought highly of either one of these "two dueces" in the first place , two  broke and hungry "ranch stiffs" whom he needed to do his dirty work and keep secret about it. They had rebelled against his his rules yes,but the idea that  they "stemmed the rose" only added to his dislike for them. He was homophobic imo. I feel he should have been grateful that Jack and Ennis went along with this plan of his to tend the sheep apart, breaking the law under the circumstances.. Certainly, he was a businessman ,but a people person, he was not.

[Matt Nasty]

Exactly, Aguirre was demanding they go against the law himself. A reason why he did'nt want it getting around . Sure, he was pissed that Jack and Eniis went against his rules but if word got back to the Forest Srvc., that he was going against their rules, he could be out of business fast.

It was only when he got one of them alone (Jack) did he let him know he knew. He never sited incompetence as the reason he would'nt hire Jack back or go into anything  specifically regarding them both breaking the rules when he could have, as a reason for not hiring him. He seemed more upset about WHY they were in camp together. What happened the previous summer when 42 sheep were killed, he also ruled Jack incompetent in his job, blaming  him for the loss, but he did hire Jack back again regardless.  Aguirre was very aware how dangerous the  unpredictable,mountainous weather could become. It's totally  unreasonable to expect perfection under these circumstances.  ( gawd, all that traveling in one day!)Truth is,  he never thought highly of either one of these "two dueces" in the first place , two  broke and hungry "ranch stiffs" whom he needed to do his dirty work and keep secret about it. They had rebelled against his his rules yes,but the idea that  they "stemmed the rose" only added to his dislike for them. He was homophobic imo. I feel he should have been grateful that Jack and Ennis went along with this plan of his to tend the sheep apart, breaking the law under the circumstances.. Certainly, he was a businessman ,but a people person, he was not.

hmm very good point

[tpe]

I do think that Aguirre was far more calculating than meets the eye. For me, he didn't seem to be a man ruled by emotions, although it is difficult for us not to see the contempt he had for subordinates who didn't meet his expectations, for one reason or other...