Author Topic: Ennis life after Jack's death and his feelings towards forgiveness  (Read 31715 times)

Offline atalley

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Wonderful post! :)

Offline lebeaugars

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The rest of Ennis' life
« Reply #31 on: Dec 02, 2009, 12:22 AM »
Has there been a discussion on what people think happens to Ennis in terms of how he lives out the rest of his life?

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: The rest of Ennis' life
« Reply #32 on: Dec 02, 2009, 11:02 AM »
Hi,Lebeaugar and welcome ¡ Yes,there's a thread where we can discuss about Ennis life after Jack's death and its link is:

 http://www.ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=14780.0

I hope you enjoy this thread and your stay here ¡  :)

Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline lebeaugars

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Re: The rest of Ennis' life
« Reply #33 on: Dec 03, 2009, 01:49 PM »
thanks my private jack for the info, i'll go check it out.

Offline chameau

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Offline lebeaugars

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wow, i gotta say you brokies sure are a deep lot and i really did feel inspired reading all the excellent posts of opinions on this topic. The reason i wanted to see what others thought on this topic was b/c i had read an article in the LA times where they interviewed Annie Proulx about how this story came about, and she said that one night at a bar in Wyoming she actually saw Ennis, not actually the fictional character but just an old lonely hungry man sitting alone at a bar full of young people and that was the birth of Ennis in her mind.

I know Ennis was a strong fella and he would have just "stood it" the rest of his life no matter how painful it was not having Jack in it anymore. Perhaps I'm just a pessimist but despite the fact that in the SS Ennis did continue to find a great deal of comfort from recurrent dreams of Jack (hence in a sense Jack is still very much present and alive in Ennis' life) Ennis ultimately ends up living the very tragic life that I believe jack wanted to save Ennis and himself from. To me this story will always be a great tragedy no matter how many spins we put on the ending or on the transformation of Ennis as a person at the end of the movie. Life trudges on as we all well know and to lose someone so important will always remain a source of pain, and knowing that nobody could nor will ever replace that one lost is cause for further sadness and despair.

In the SS after the last confrontation, Proulx writes "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved." I feel both characters understood and knew how deeply they were loved by the other and at the same time how their relationship was always and would continue to be one that brought unsurpassed joy yet at the same time limitless sadness for neither could "quit" the other despite all the anger and frustration of wanting to surpass this impasse because they knew that their relationship was what defined them at the core and gave their existence meaning. For anyone who has had a relationship like this knows as a truth that it is the one love to which none other will ever compare nor replace.

In the last scene which was as we all agree magnificently acted by both Heath and Jake, we see that nothing has really changed since they were young men back up at brokeback herding sheep. Ennis drives away to resume his life and Jack understands and maybe even finally accepts however unwillingly that this is they way it will always be, its is the way they will always be, forever trapped in that blissful pain. He will never have the life he dreams of because he sees that Ennis will always be Ennis and no matter what Jack says or does he would not be able to make Ennis be what he wants and Jack would always desire to live his days with Ennis and nothing Ennis says or does would ever change that. Ultimately jack accepts Ennis for who he is and their relationship for what it is. Proulx ends their final parting encounter with "Let be, let be."

Ms. Proulx says that when she saw that old man in the bar, she knew there had to be a Jack for that Ennis, and hence the birth of the characters and the story in her mind. This is why i think that in the end Ennis became a sad, lonely old man who despite everything that happened still craved the real, emotional, physical, tangible connection with another human being that i feel we all crave, and which he had the great fortune to find but ultimately for uncontrollable reasons could not keep. Therein lies the deep tragic nature of the story and maybe of humanity...... despite the profound love, it was not enough to change the course of fate.

apologies for the down nature of the post, IF i can find that article again i will post it here to share with everyone.

vedrana

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wow, i gotta say you brokies sure are a deep lot and i really did feel inspired reading all the excellent posts of opinions on this topic. The reason i wanted to see what others thought on this topic was b/c i had read an article in the LA times where they interviewed Annie Proulx about how this story came about, and she said that one night at a bar in Wyoming she actually saw Ennis, not actually the fictional character but just an old lonely hungry man sitting alone at a bar full of young people and that was the birth of Ennis in her mind.

I know Ennis was a strong fella and he would have just "stood it" the rest of his life no matter how painful it was not having Jack in it anymore. Perhaps I'm just a pessimist but despite the fact that in the SS Ennis did continue to find a great deal of comfort from recurrent dreams of Jack (hence in a sense Jack is still very much present and alive in Ennis' life) Ennis ultimately ends up living the very tragic life that I believe jack wanted to save Ennis and himself from. To me this story will always be a great tragedy no matter how many spins we put on the ending or on the transformation of Ennis as a person at the end of the movie. Life trudges on as we all well know and to lose someone so important will always remain a source of pain, and knowing that nobody could nor will ever replace that one lost is cause for further sadness and despair.

In the SS after the last confrontation, Proulx writes "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved." I feel both characters understood and knew how deeply they were loved by the other and at the same time how their relationship was always and would continue to be one that brought unsurpassed joy yet at the same time limitless sadness for neither could "quit" the other despite all the anger and frustration of wanting to surpass this impasse because they knew that their relationship was what defined them at the core and gave their existence meaning. For anyone who has had a relationship like this knows as a truth that it is the one love to which none other will ever compare nor replace.

In the last scene which was as we all agree magnificently acted by both Heath and Jake, we see that nothing has really changed since they were young men back up at brokeback herding sheep. Ennis drives away to resume his life and Jack understands and maybe even finally accepts however unwillingly that this is they way it will always be, its is the way they will always be, forever trapped in that blissful pain. He will never have the life he dreams of because he sees that Ennis will always be Ennis and no matter what Jack says or does he would not be able to make Ennis be what he wants and Jack would always desire to live his days with Ennis and nothing Ennis says or does would ever change that. Ultimately jack accepts Ennis for who he is and their relationship for what it is. Proulx ends their final parting encounter with "Let be, let be."

Ms. Proulx says that when she saw that old man in the bar, she knew there had to be a Jack for that Ennis, and hence the birth of the characters and the story in her mind. This is why i think that in the end Ennis became a sad, lonely old man who despite everything that happened still craved the real, emotional, physical, tangible connection with another human being that i feel we all crave, and which he had the great fortune to find but ultimately for uncontrollable reasons could not keep. Therein lies the deep tragic nature of the story and maybe of humanity...... despite the profound love, it was not enough to change the course of fate.

apologies for the down nature of the post, IF i can find that article again i will post it here to share with everyone.


Oh my, oh my!

Haven't posted i this thread for year... and now I can still recall the pain I'd felt a year ago... I was hardly able to think of Ennis in that cold lonely trailer.  :_(

And now your post... very beautiful one indeed (especially loved the bold parts).

So, welcome to this beautiful home that heals my wounds for a year now.  ^f^

Unfortunately, there are a lots of Jacks and Ennis all around the world, many lonely people who just didn't make it. Didn't manage to keep love and to stick to it, for various reasons. Truly sad.

It would be great to see those words of AP in the article. Thank you for reminding me of this thread and my dear smartestsonia, who started it, but I haven't seen her for ages too. :)

Offline Tony

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  Thanks, many thanks, to all who were a part of reviving this thread.  It is, for me, one of the most interesting topics there could be.  I need to study the previous posts carefully; and, of course, I've already run into the hurt of seeing Tammy listed as a guest, and I can't yet bring myself to read her posts, I miss her so much.
  But a couple of thoughts:

  - AP's description of how she came up with the idea of Ennis is a part of BBM folklore that I greatly respect.  But I am one of those who believe the story jumped past her, and took over on its own.  And she did herself say she felt her hand, at times, was guided by some force above.  So where she began, a glimpse of a lonely old man in a bar, would not necessarily have to be where the evolving, unravelling, (or real, if you will) Ennis did actually end up.

 - there is a lot of prompting for us, from those last scenes, and the view from Ennis' trailer, as to how things turned out, and there've been some very good posts, on many threads about this.  Am on other forums, myself, but have never seen any of them match the insights found here.  That may be due to Thomas' perserverance in encouraging all of us to develop our thoughts, as he has done, all these years.  But I did come across something sad, not long ago, whereby someone had written about those golden fields, that they were flat, and Brokeback Mountain was......gone.

  I hope this thread keeps going, and, thanks again to all who have posted.  
« Last Edit: Jan 24, 2010, 02:36 PM by Tony »

Offline lebeaugars

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Hi folks, thanks again for this thread and everyone's input and after a few hours of searching I finally retrieved the article from which I drew some conjectures about Ennis' life after Jack. It is interesting as i was researching this that Proulx only ever mentioned the old man in this particular interview out of the many she's given about the origins of the story......so I hope I'm not misquoting her cause it kind of seems for the most part that she does not talk about this old man she saw at the bar........

I would post the link for the full text but it is from database for which you need to have a paying subscription, but here are the relevant parts below.........

(Copyright (c) 2005 Los Angeles Times)

E. Annie Proulx is sipping coffee at the Four Seasons in Beverly Hills and talking about literary ghosts.

She has struggled for years to get Ennis and Jack out of her head. These are the two leads who fall in love in Proulx's short story "Brokeback Mountain," male ranch hands whose secrecy and self- denial is bleak and heartbreaking and -- to anyone who has experienced homophobia and its ramifications -- disquietingly familiar.

Proulx, 70, in town recently for the premiere of Ang Lee's film adaptation of "Brokeback Mountain," says that while she was "blown away" by the movie, she doesn't welcome the return of Ennis and Jack to the forefront of her consciousness.

"Put yourself in my place," the author says. "An elderly, white, straight female, trying to write about two 19-year-old gay kids in 1963. What kind of imaginative leap do you think was necessary? Profound, extreme, large. To get into those guys' heads and actions took a lot of 16-hour days, and never thinking about anything else and living a zombie life. That's what I had to do. I really needed an exorcist to get rid of those characters. And they roared back when I saw the film."

The story bubbled forth from "years and years of observation and subliminal taking in of rural homophobia," says Proulx, whose Pulitzer Prize-winning novel, "The Shipping News," was also adapted for the screen. She remembers the moment when those years of observed hatred began taking form. It was 1995 and Proulx, who lives in Wyoming, visited a crowded bar near the Montana border. The place was rowdy and packed with attractive women, everyone was drinking, and the energy was high.

"There was the smell of sex in the air," Proulx remembers. "But here was this old shabby-looking guy.... watching the guys playing pool. He had a raw hunger in his eyes that made me wonder if he were country gay. I wondered, 'What would've he been like when he was younger?' Then he disappeared, and in his place appeared Ennis. And then Jack. You can't have Ennis without Jack."


Proulx didn't think her story would ever be published. The material felt too risky; Ennis and Jack express their love with as much physical gusto as any heterosexual couple, and it happens in full view of the reader, without any nervous obfuscation. The backdrop is that wide expansive West that bore forth John Wayne and the Marlboro Man -- but here the edges of the mythos fray, and the world becomes chilly and oppressive.
« Last Edit: Dec 03, 2009, 10:51 PM by lebeaugar »

vedrana

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This is great. Very interesting and it really seems to me that the old guy in the bar lit the first sparkle for the most beautiful story/movie ever...

AP did an amazing job, and I am not surprised that she was haunted by the characters Ennis and Jack and that the movie woke up in her the memory of them. I, myself will always be a slave to this story and the movie... forever... :i

OT: Tony, yeah, you're right (Tammy being guest hit me too! :( )

Offline Tony

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  Loreen - yeah, that was a great post from lebeaugar, a fuller story than I had read before.  It also seemed to show AP had been thinking on the subject before, and it was only the old "country gay" that crystallized her thoughts; they had been there before.
  Also interesting to note she began complaining, early, about how the characters took over for themselves, in the sense that she felt she needed an exorcist(!), but she does have a great dry humor that shows up sometimes and that shouldn't be taken at face value.

 Lebeaugar:  Wonderful research!

  I hope to be able to post some feelings and thoughts relevant to the topic, as soon as I can get them together.  Meanwhile, this really is a topic that gets my heart both warmed up and yet weary.  I always felt the ending was meant to be a suggestion, a passage, of AP's and Ang Lee's understandings into our own, taking with us what they had given.  How Ennis ended up was left unresolved, I think, in order for us to not leave it there, but to keep Ennis, (and for that matter Jack), with us.  Nothing in the ending said we were to just walk away.


Offline tpe

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...

I know Ennis was a strong fella and he would have just "stood it" the rest of his life no matter how painful it was not having Jack in it anymore. Perhaps I'm just a pessimist but despite the fact that in the SS Ennis did continue to find a great deal of comfort from recurrent dreams of Jack (hence in a sense Jack is still very much present and alive in Ennis' life) Ennis ultimately ends up living the very tragic life that I believe jack wanted to save Ennis and himself from. To me this story will always be a great tragedy no matter how many spins we put on the ending or on the transformation of Ennis as a person at the end of the movie. Life trudges on as we all well know and to lose someone so important will always remain a source of pain, and knowing that nobody could nor will ever replace that one lost is cause for further sadness and despair.

...

This is certainly true.  Even though we can say that there wasa a hint of redemption in the end, this no way lessens the depth of the tragedy, and we are sure that for Ennis, he has lost something really profound and essential to his true happiness.  And there is no way for him to recover it.


Offline lebeaugars

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I am happy to see that you guys have found this discussion interesting and fulfilling as I have.

I feel a bit guilty because when i created my first posting I was very sad and had just read that interview with Ms. Proulx confirming my fears of Ennis' fate after Jacks death. However genuine my thoughts were at the time, I felt my musings were slightly on the negative side because I believed Ennis turned out to be just like the lonely old shabby man that Ms. Proulx saw sitting in a bar destined to live out the precise sentence from which Jack tried so hard to save him. Actually its not difficult to visualize because in the film there were scenes where Ennis was doing just that, sitting alone in a bar or restaurant eating or drinking not interacting or making contact with anyone else. In essence it was not difficult to see Ennis living a miserable lonely existence till the day he finally dies.

After reading my own post i was bothered at how depressing my thoughts were as I am usually an up-beat person who tries to see the positive side of life and so after a few days of therapy; ie not watching the film nor reading the short story I decided to re-visit my conjectures of what happens to someone like Ennis who experiences such a traumatic loss and will hopefully be able to imagine a more positive picture of his' life after Jack in an attempt to be less of a darn downer......

It is interesting to note that the basic tragedy of this movie does not really differ from other great "love stories" such as The Age of Innocence, The English Patient, or even Le Grand Bleu, where the lead characters despite their intense love shared, are in the end unable to defeat all the forces conspiring to keep them apart and live a long and "sweet life" together. Granted the short story is in itself a powerful and moving tale yet I believe that it is thanks to Ang Lee, the creator of the musical score and above all the actors that this particular film was able to and continues to elicit such raw and profound emotions in people like ourselves.

The final scene where Ennis buttons up the shirt and stares with tear filled eyes at the memory of perhaps his only true source of peace makes it difficult for me to watch as I believe all the emotions and thoughts that he was feeling and being flooded with at that moment would be what he experienced each time he thinks of Jack and their past together, he would always be caught in a sort of blissful pain. Yet in truth isn't that what life is, a melange of joy and sadness, hope and despair, dreams and regrets? In a sense Ennis lives life to the fullest whenever he recalls a memory of Jack or their time together. If Ennis had never met Jack on Brokeback Mountain, he most likely would have walked through life more or less asleep, just taking one step after another in a direction which was chosen for him by convention. I feel he would have loved Alma and his children but were it not for Jack, Ennis may never have known what it was to love and be loved so deeply and unconditionally nor that such a pure form of love was even possible in this life!

If you read the short story you will see that after Jack's death Ennis grows old and is simply trying to survive, he is again jobless and soon to be homeless, yet despite all these hardships he is still "standing it" but he is not just existing and resigned to his fate, he is actually living, still working at and striving to grab on to the fine strands of happiness which find their way into his bleak life through his dreams of Jack! Yes he may experience deep sadness and loneliness whenever he is reminded of the life he could never have with Jack but the short story tells us quite the opposite, that the thought of Jack, seeing Jack in his dreams is and will be till the day he dies the fire that warms Ennis' soul and gives him the strength to endure. We endure, we live, that is what people do even in the face of great pain and hardship. That is what I believe became of Ennis after Jack dies, instead of just trudging through life without sense nor purpose, he "lives on" and that certainly can be an inspiration for anyone who continues to live after losing the love of their life. Ennis may still be that lonely shabby old man in the bar but that is not all he is. Ennis is also a man who has truly lived and is still afire with regrets and sadness, memories of peace and joy, hopes and nights of dreams where he can find his beloved Jack.

I think this is a much more positive posting indeed. Hope anyone who reads it can understand what I am trying to convey! The story still moves me to tears but I don't despair and feel so hopeless as i have in the past.

Offline myprivatejack

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where Ennis buttons up the shirt and stares with tear filled eyes at the memory of perhaps his only true source of peace makes it difficult for me to watch as I believe all the emotions and thoughts that he was feeling and being flooded with at that moment would be what he experienced each time he thinks of Jack and their past together, he would always be caught in a sort of blissful pain. Yet in truth isn't that what life is, a melange of joy and sadness, hope and despair, dreams and regrets? In a sense Ennis lives life to the fullest whenever he recalls a memory of Jack or their time together. If Ennis had never met Jack on Brokeback Mountain, he most likely would have walked through life more or less asleep, just taking one step after another in a direction which was chosen for him by convention. I feel he would have loved Alma and his children but were it not for Jack, Ennis may never have known what it was to love and be loved so deeply and unconditionally nor that such a pure form of love was even possible in this life!

If you read the short story you will see that after Jack's death Ennis grows old and is simply trying to survive, he is again jobless and soon to be homeless, yet despite all these hardships he is still "standing it" but he is not just existing and resigned to his fate, he is actually living, still working at and striving to grab on to the fine strands of happiness which find their way into his bleak life through his dreams of Jack! Yes he may experience deep sadness and loneliness whenever he is reminded of the life he could never have with Jack but the short story tells us quite the opposite, that the thought of Jack, seeing Jack in his dreams is and will be till the day he dies the fire that warms Ennis' soul and gives him the strength to endure. We endure, we live, that is what people do even in the face of great pain and hardship. That is what I believe became of Ennis after Jack dies, instead of just trudging through life without sense nor purpose, he "lives on" and that certainly can be an inspiration for anyone who continues to live after losing the love of their life. Ennis may still be that lonely shabby old man in the bar but that is not all he is. Ennis is also a man who has truly lived and is still afire with regrets and sadness, memories of peace and joy, hopes and nights of dreams where he can find his beloved Jack.

I think this is a much more positive posting indeed. Hope anyone who reads it can understand what I am trying to convey! The story still moves me to tears but I don't despair and feel so hopeless as i have in the past.
^

It's not only a much more positive post,but a wonderfully expressed one ¡ :) Yes,it's like seeing the glace half empty or half full,no?.Even in the worst moments,we can always obtain a lesson to apply in our future,a kind of sting that oblige us to carry on.And sometimes this sting are simply our memories;the certainty that we have had a happy time when we felt loved and we were loved.Loved by someone that has given some sense to our lives,and in this sense is clear that Jack gave a lot of sense to Ennis'...You're right in that he could feel an even deep sorrow when he thought of what he had could live by Jack's side and he has always denied;but the simple fact of having lived such a happy times with him,the feeling of having lived a great love story can be enough for him to be happy or at least,resigned.As you say,without Jack in his life,he had let the years passing in a grey and boring life when he had denied to himself the best knowledge one could have:to know himself.He had been running thought years half slept,living in a lie,maybe similar to the which he lived with Jack; but at least,coming from the truth that he had discovered his innest self,even if he liked it or not.Only the "lucky ones" who have lived such a great love can understand what this means.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline Karol

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I've never tought about it.
I stop there where the story ends

Offline tpe

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For me, it is hard to think about it -- in spite of the sliver of hope, I see a lot of darkness and loneliness.  A part of me wants to see otherwise...


Offline myprivatejack

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For me, it is hard to think about it -- in spite of the sliver of hope, I see a lot of darkness and loneliness.  A part of me wants to see otherwise...

Yes,I have usually seen the situation in that way too...But this doesn't mean that one couldn't live with the happiness for having felt the love of one's life.One can be optimist or pessimistic,or better said; positivist or negativist.To cry for what one has lived and has lost or to cry for never having been able to lived it.Or be happy in the present time for having lived it in the past...It depends on the way one sees the experience;I repeat,seeing the bottle half empty or half full.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

vedrana

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For me, it is hard to think about it -- in spite of the sliver of hope, I see a lot of darkness and loneliness.  A part of me wants to see otherwise...



For a while I wasn't able to watch the last scene at all. I felt a physical pain... OK, not only for that scene, but that one was excruciating....   :(
The very reason that this story/movie touched us so much IS in Ennis's sorrow after losing the only meaning of his life... :_( :_(

vedrana

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Yes,I have usually seen the situation in that way too...But this doesn't mean that one couldn't live with the happiness for having felt the love of one's life.One can be optimist or pessimistic,or better said; positivist or negativist.To cry for what one has lived and has lost or to cry for never having been able to lived it.Or be happy in the present time for having lived it in the past...It depends on the way one sees the experience;I repeat,seeing the bottle half empty or half full.

I see this bottle half empty and I assume that so was Ennis.  :(

Offline Tony

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  It's been so long am not sure, but, I believe it was Ethan, on another thread, who noted Ennis was, at the end, fixing up the numbers on his mailbox, i.e., looking to whatever life would bring along.  He clearly would never forget Jack, and even made Jack the foundation of his life from then on, with sadness AND joy. [Ethan, if I remember correctly, was encouraging someone in the "How BBM affected me", type threads].
  That particular scene, then, and Ennis' apparent psychological health, as he fixed up his mailbox, added to his willingness to commit to his daughter's emotional needs, suggests a more mixed future for him than would be found in the short story.

Offline myprivatejack

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  It's been so long am not sure, but, I believe it was Ethan, on another thread, who noted Ennis was, at the end, fixing up the numbers on his mailbox, i.e., looking to whatever life would bring along.  He clearly would never forget Jack, and even made Jack the foundation of his life from then on, with sadness AND joy. [Ethan, if I remember correctly, was encouraging someone in the "How BBM affected me", type threads].
  That particular scene, then, and Ennis' apparent psychological health, as he fixed up his mailbox, added to his willingness to commit to his daughter's emotional needs, suggests a more mixed future for him than would be found in the short story.

At least,he seems to have learned how to love and how to commit himself more and better with the persons he loves and who love him.As if,as very often happens with all of us,he had learned from the negative,tragic events what he never was able to learn when these events flow normally.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline lebeaugars

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I think what you guys say is true, and that final encounter in the movie between him and Alma Jr. is a great example. Ennis has been seen to do things to make his daughters happy before such as when they were little and asked him to come back in time to take them to a church function or watch them perform or something of that sort, he said "ok" he would actually try and make it back in time for that b/c it would meant something to them even though it meant cutting his time with Jack short. But yes when Alma Jr. asked if he could come to the wedding and he started to give reasons for not coming, she gave that same look we'd seen before where she can't really look at him and does not want him to see her disappointment. But Ennis now knows better to cherish the opportunities he has to make people he loves happy by fulfilling their requests. I think he does deeply regret not being able to do that for Jack to the degree Jack had wanted..... I'm not sure if Jack were still alive that Ennis would be able to commit to living out the rest of his life with Jack since we know those demons probably haunt Ennis till the day he dies, but we do see a glimmer of hope that Ennis has somehow learned to "change his ways". Even at the ripe old age of 40! Its strange b/c 40 is not that old yet Ennis somehow looked like he was in his 60's at that point....I guess he had a really tough life, not just physically but emotionally and psychologically speaking he struggled a long long time......

Offline myprivatejack

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I think what you guys say is true, and that final encounter in the movie between him and Alma Jr. is a great example. Ennis has been seen to do things to make his daughters happy before such as when they were little and asked him to come back in time to take them to a church function or watch them perform or something of that sort, he said "ok" he would actually try and make it back in time for that b/c it would meant something to them even though it meant cutting his time with Jack short. But yes when Alma Jr. asked if he could come to the wedding and he started to give reasons for not coming, she gave that same look we'd seen before where she can't really look at him and does not want him to see her disappointment. But Ennis now knows better to cherish the opportunities he has to make people he loves happy by fulfilling their requests. I think he does deeply regret not being able to do that for Jack to the degree Jack had wanted..... I'm not sure if Jack were still alive that Ennis would be able to commit to living out the rest of his life with Jack since we know those demons probably haunt Ennis till the day he dies, but we do see a glimmer of hope that Ennis has somehow learned to "change his ways". Even at the ripe old age of 40! Its strange b/c 40 is not that old yet Ennis somehow looked like he was in his 60's at that point....I guess he had a really tough life, not just physically but emotionally and psychologically speaking he struggled a long long time......
Interesting post,lebeaugars ¡  :clap: I also think that,somehow,the lesson-horrible lesson,btw...-for Ennis was learning to live according to his feelings,letting them flow more freely than before.You know that they say we never learn from good and kind things that happen to us,but for the negative and sad ones...And doubtless,this is one of the most horrible events that Ennis could have overcame in his life,but at least,it had the positive-to call it in some way...-side of putting events in the correct order.I suppose we won't ever know for sure what would have happenned being Jack alive after the another good lesson that FC meant; you're right in that his inner demons would have been by his side during all his life,and probably more still living with another man...But it's sure that something would have changed inside him that allowed him to live a more relaxed life,and above all,where he would give his beloved ones the time both in quality and quantity,they deserved.Even if the inner suffering had became him in a older man in his look and,maybe a little,in his behaviour...
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline Tony

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the simple fact of having lived such a happy times with him, the feeling of having lived a great love story can be enough for him to be happy or at least, resigned. ..........    Only the "lucky ones" who have lived such a great love can understand what this means.
   Yes, he did have something, to carry forward in his life.  It could not all be misery and grieving.  Very, true, MPJ.

Offline tpe

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Yes,I have usually seen the situation in that way too...But this doesn't mean that one couldn't live with the happiness for having felt the love of one's life.One can be optimist or pessimistic,or better said; positivist or negativist.To cry for what one has lived and has lost or to cry for never having been able to lived it.Or be happy in the present time for having lived it in the past...It depends on the way one sees the experience;I repeat,seeing the bottle half empty or half full.

For a while I wasn't able to watch the last scene at all. I felt a physical pain... OK, not only for that scene, but that one was excruciating....   :(
The very reason that this story/movie touched us so much IS in Ennis's sorrow after losing the only meaning of his life... :_( :_(

I think what you guys say is true, and that final encounter in the movie between him and Alma Jr. is a great example. ...

If there ia any way for me to describe the end, it is BITTERSWEET.  It is moving, wistful, hopeful, and deeply sad all at the same time.

Offline myprivatejack

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If there ia any way for me to describe the end, it is BITTERSWEET.  It is moving, wistful, hopeful, and deeply sad all at the same time.

Yes,you're fully right,as always; this is the best word to describe the situation Ennis lived after Jack's passing away.But,isn't it the right word too for what Jack had lived during their relationship and for this relationship itself?. :s)
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline lebeaugars

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Yes "bitter-sweet" as Loreen puts it is the term i was trying to get out   :m}but ended up with "painful bliss" or "blissful pain" in my previous postings on this topic. I agree with Myprivatejack in that it is also the perfect way to describe what Jack was living while still in the world. This is a tragedy just as we all agree despite the positive sides of the story we elucidate.......I believe that is what the subconscience does to get us through the days, because if we were to simply focus on how tragic the tale was and how painful the rest of Ennis' days would be without ever being able to experience the peace he found in Jack's embrace, I as well as Ennis would completely cease to function at any level. I would be inconsolable to such a degree as to literally "lose my will to continue living". This scenario is not uncommon as we all have heard the stories of some wife or husband dying not soon after the passing of their spouse...... come to think of it, Ennis when he learns of Jacks death in the SS cannot believe it is true, and in the movie I was surprised by how tough Ennis was after the initial shock, calling Loreen and being able to carry on a conversation, then meeting Jack's parents and calmly conversing withe them and listening to them talk about Jack the whole while remaining completely "normal", maybe he was still in denial and in fact i think he was in a state of shock and disbelief up to the point of finding the two shirts in Jack's closet. That is the moment when the reality dawns upon him and he knows and really understands that Jack is forever gone, he has lost the one being who loved and understood him completely and unconditionally. And so Ennis begins to grieve his lost, feeling the shirts and embracing and breathing them in as though they were the physical manifestation of Jack and himself eternally entwined together, forever one. Again great acting on Heath's part!  And then, after that heart-wrenching scene, we see just the lights of Ennis' truck gliding in the dark down a long stretch of open road, traveling alone into the darkness which is his life deprived of Jack. Great directing on Ang's part.....

And so bleak and painful as his future is without Jack, Ennis continues to live and I sometimes wonder why, why does Ennis not simply collapse and die when he realizes what he has lost? What had he left to look forward to when the only real joy we have ever seen him feel was from anticipation of and the actual moments he shared with Jack? Maybe this is a question for another thread or perhaps there is already one which exists?

In any event, i believe that Ennis continues partly for his daughters, as we know that he does love them, heck he's even put them in front of Jack in the past (whether out of duty or using them as a justification and excuse for not giving Jack what he wanted we may not really know) but he still has people in the world who care about him and to whom he probably feels responsible. Or maybe just dying is not even something he could imagine because people don't just kill themselves like that out there and back then, they work so hard all their lives just to be able to continue living, it would be irrational to just end one's life! For whatever reason or reasons, Ennis trudges on and does not die though interestingly enough such a loss is and should be enough to crush the life out of a person. But our old Ennis is one tough son of a gun and so he survives, not without severe wounds however and as we see in the SS Ennis sometimes wakes from his dreams of Jack full of joy and sometimes grief stricken..... it would be a mixture of all that for the rest of his days I think...... bittersweet

« Last Edit: Dec 16, 2009, 06:29 PM by lebeaugars »

Offline jackster

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Been real interesting reading this thread from a distance, following some of the directions it’s taken, here an’ there. I’m especially fascinated by the effort to try and get inside these two men and see what made ‘em who they were, understand what they were feeling. Givin’ it some thought, and as usual (for me anyway), needed to go back to Annie to try an’ set my mind straight.

And she lays it out, right up front, in the very first sentence of the SS (after the intro), who these guys are and the stock they came from. The words struck me and I needed to look some up to make sure I really understood what she meant – I’ll just paraphrase her here . . .

“. . . both . . brought up to hard work and privation . . . both . . inured to the stoic life.”

So I needed to learn this:

 privation = lack of basic necessities of life, such as food, housing, and heating.

  inured = accustomed to something, especially something unpleasant.

  stoic = tending to remain unemotional, especially showing admirable patience and endurance in the face of adversity.



Real interesting that she uses these words to define BOTH Ennis and Jack, and that she uses “both” twice in the same sentence when defining these boys/men to reinforce their emotional similarities. If they are both are like this at age 19, when they meet, where do they go from here? What would, could, the next 20 years bring for their emotional evolution?

So Jack was able to live without what he so desperately desired, Ennis. Ennis was able to live without what he was so desperately afraid of, living with Jack. Not only could they stand this, and so did, but maybe they expected to stand it. What we see as pain, hurt, sadness, despair, they were programmed to expect in life.
“Life is hard, then you die” Ennis Del Mar.

As lebeaugars has pointed out in an earlier post, in their final meeting - "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved."
we get to drinkin' and talkin' an all

vedrana

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What we see as pain, hurt, sadness, despair, they were programmed to expect in life.
“Life is hard, then you die” Ennis Del Mar.

Yes... and the fact that they never tasted the real love and acceptance , except from each other, makes me even sadder for both boys...  :(

Offline lebeaugars

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Hey Jackster, thanks for answering my question of why Ennis doesnt just drop dead from devastation when he realizes whats happened to him. Excellent insight and understanding of Proulx words: “. . . both . . brought up to hard work and privation . . . both . . inured to the stoic life.” So much explained with so few words, probably one of the elements that makes her such a great writer!

These guys are probably very different stock than most folks today, without generalizing the last two generations, i figure at least i belong to the group of people that feel entitled to have pretty much everything I want since its seems I have gotten pretty much everything I've wanted or aimed for (with a few exceptions) thus far in my life. If we look at mainstream culture, it is one that promotes and encourages comfort in excess. Some might say it in hardship but how many people do I know would expect without question that "life is hard and then you die" ?  Probably none.

And yes they are as it were pre-programmed or conditioned to live a stoic life, boys don't shed tears, boys don't got feelings and don't talk about emotions, heck maybe they're not even supposed to have them or if they do they certainly can't show them, especially those that appear weak or needy. This is maybe another reason they loved each other so much, that first encounter up in the isolated mountains where they were alone and could open up, not be stoic, what a sense of liberation that must have been for both of them and to share with another person your feelings, to be able to talk freely and not be judged or condemned.... they formed a two man utopia! So perhaps Jack being the dreamer actually dared to dream of life being that way always and Ennis the practical man understood that their utopia could only exist in a place where nobody else existed, their high altitude getaways.

So I have to understand that my reaction to what happens to Jack and Ennis will most certainly be different from their own reactions to what happens to them. Nevertheless its inevitable and for many even therapeutic to make sense and understand what these two guys are going through. Your succinct and well researched post sure answers quite a few main questions for me, like a key that's opened all these locked doors into their psyche.

 :cr)
« Last Edit: Dec 17, 2009, 12:22 PM by lebeaugars »