Topic: When did they start to fall in love?

[LuvJackNasty]

This is why I am surprised when I read comments outside this forum about people complaining that the FNIT happed just out of the blue.  These people should be more observant.  They are the people who have to be hit by an on-coming train before they realize that they can't cross to the other side.

Exactly- you can tell, if you watch, that at least a month has gone by because of the full moon.

   The movie tells us how to watch it, that gestures and looks are going to be equally important as the spoken word, because they are equally important to the boys.

Well said  We are watching their story unfold as they want us to see it.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

The look in Jack's eyes when he tries to clean up Ennis's face and Ennis brushes his hand away speaks volumes -and the way he wants to touch Ennis suggests he's feeling more than just concern for an injured friends.

This is definitely a scene where I feel Jack shows real feeling and concern for Ennis.  He takes HIS hankerchief off to attempt to clean the wound.  His approach is quite gentle and careful.

Had this happened between two typical guys we might hear "Hey man, you got blood on yer face.  You might oughta clean that s**t off."

[zephK]

This is definitely a scene where I feel Jack shows real feeling and concern for Ennis.  He takes HIS hankerchief off to attempt to clean the wound.  His approach is quite gentle and careful.

Had this happened between two typical guys we might hear "Hey man, you got blood on yer face.  You might oughta clean that s**t off."

  In the movie, there is that sweet scene in Aguirre's trailer, when he gets distracted from them by that phone call, they each slyly take advantage in the lull in the attention he's giving them to give each other the once over.  I always thought that Jack was a little slower than Ennis because he takes longer to look.  I could be wrong though, he might be acknowledging that Ennis is sexier than he is, lingering on his looks like that.       Really, I think he's just the lonelier of the two, at this point, what with that "one road out" of Lightning Flat, and all that.

[aintfoolin]

 As far as I'm concerned the eyes tell the story in a big way.
The scene where they come outside the trailor and Jack is smoking , staring staight ahead and Ennis appears to be fascinated with his new watch , , finnally makes eye contact with Jack as they shook hans ( only for a micro-sec (it's so humanly real when an object of desire is so close and in your face)for me this split second of akwardness makes me smile for some reason. They've both have gotten jobs for the summer, together. The introduction to each other is filled with telling , but hidden messages. I say again watch the eyes, especially Jack's. They  not only search Ennis's eyes but he gives Ennis the full body "once over" And twice over .  Maybe he was'nt in love with him yet but He definitly shows he's interested in finding out more. Oh... and what's up with the lip-licking? Oh my!
 Loved the way the friendship developed first sharing the camp building etc. Jack's concern after the bear incident. Ennis's subtle kindnesses and concerns, shooting the elk etc.. I am struck by the scene in which it is storming, Ennis is wittling a wooden horse, looking up to see Jack and at the sky. Perhaps he was worried that Jack was safe and warm...and dry?  Sweet. I too cannot pin-point the exact monent they fell in love but SNIT in the tent proved it happened along the way somewhere.I think it was a suprise to both of them.

[zephK]

  Couldn't agree with you more, Ain't, if I may use your first name?      I think they both think that all of their checkin' each other out is just gettin' ta be acquainted.  They're both from extremely rural areas where everybody lived at least 8 - 10 miles from each other, and there just weren't that many kids around their own age available to either of them. 
  A. Proulx could have said they were the same age, but didn't.  After 60 or more rewrites, you'd think that every little word must mean something, so why didn't she tell us they were the same age?  As near as I can figure out, she didn't want their age to be something her readers could use to identify with them, socially.  Maybe she wasn't taking any chances that we could get the impression that these guys grew up anything like the majority of her readers, so she uses the vagueness in their ages (both younger than 20) so we couldn't think they were "together" at any other stage in their lives, that they were both novelties to one another.  This could explain why they didn't get it right away that some of their interest in each other was more than just "friendly," and it might also explain their surprise at falling in love and the viewers'/readers' lack of it.

[welshwitch]

It's also true that in the kid of places they lived, there were limited opportunities for social contact - Ennis had been out of school for years, after which he'sdworked on farms with his brother, and Jack surely hadn't been in the competitive environment of rodeoing for all that long - he'd also gone back to Lightning Flat in between, since he'd told his father what he was doing and his father had taken no interest. So I think the'd had limited occasions when they'd met someone of around their own age with whom they had to form a relationship. friendship, whatever, from scratch.

[zephK]

Maybe this is why they don't see themselves as in love for such a long time - neither of them has enough socialization to be aware of the difference between wanting to get to know your new best friend as much as you can, and falling in love!  Wow, great inspiration welshwitch!

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

You have given us an interesting and probable angle to think about welshwitch!

[lamusica]

It is amazing to me that the issue of when they fell in love is so important to us and keeps cropping up over and over.  I think it is a most difficult question.  I think it's easier to figure out when they KNEW they were in love, than when they actually FELL in love.
Good theory, WW, for sure.  These boys didn't have enough experience with people to really know what their relationship was. When they slipped over the lines from acquaintances to friends, then to lovers, they more or less stumbled over the lines.  They weren't conscious of the changes that were going on between them. They really were babes in the woods.  To me, they both needed love so badly that they were unconsciously wide open to the possibility of love.  They acted on need, in MHO.

[jackster]

It is amazing to me that the issue of when they fell in love is so important to us and keeps cropping up over and over.  I think it is a most difficult question.

How true, I guess if any of us could figure out what love is, and could put it into words, we’d writing books with AP.

Interesting what you say about their experience with love WW, I guess in reflecting about this the only person we see with a deep understanding of true love is Jack’s mother who expresses her unconditional love for her son in so many ways. So Jack is the only one of the boys to have experienced the joy of knowing what it is like to feel unconditional love, yet he is possibly too young to comprehend this yet at 19. It certainly seems to color his compassionate approach to Ennis not only in ’63 but also for years to come.

[zephK]

Here's a thought that just occurred to me that you might want to kick around: On Brokeback, Jack and Ennis have agreed to agree that they are 2 straight boys engaging in some sport sex for the summer.  That's what I think "I ain't queer, me neither," means.  - We can screw our brains out all summer long, as long as we don't mean it.  We've agreed that neither of us is queer so, in the long tradition of lonely, separated from the rest of the world heterosexual male pairs, we can have as much sport sex out here as we want, and no one but us will know, so we won't have to pay for it back home.
 But one thing happens on Brokeback that we don't find out until the big fight, when Jack remembers the drowsy embrace.  It stands apart because it is "artless and sexless."  With no thought, plan or ulterior goal, Ennis comes to him at the fire to say goodbye for the day, and he is in no hurry to let go and get going.  I think he remembers it at this time because that's the first time he thinks that maybe there's some "feeling" behind the sex, after all he's really liking this and this ain't sex.  It might occur to him to wish that maybe they aren't two straight guys after all.  He's warmed further at the thought, but knows it can't be because Ennis is straight - they've talked about it and have graciously accepted each other's lie for truth.  Of course, they're both so infatuated with the idea of each other that neither of them knows or could even think that the other guy is lying, too.  But this time their contact is different: Ennis holds Jack and rocks him, hums to him, breathes with him, gives him a heartbeat to feel, and tells Jack to hit the hay as he is leaving.  This truly sweet moment is the first point of awareness for either of them that this summer fling but could become a lifetime craving.  Ennis doesn't notice any of this, not until after the final fight.  That's my vote for when their love did start.  Until a new thought comes along. 
  (Of course they started to fall in love when they first met, but with no experience, they didn't know what they were up to, or what was up with them, until Jack caught on in the DE.  Poor bastard couldn't tell "straight" Ennis that he had feelings for him too - might be taken the wrong way.)

[jackster]

I'd say you're pretty close on target here, zephK.
Really like your analogy of "2 straight boys engaging in some sport sex" -
Now I know why I've watched this movie a hunerd' times!
 

[tpe]

  I'm sure this has been said before, but this is one of the most signal parts of the movie: it begins (in Signal) in silence.  Other than Jack's half-heard "Shit!" when he kicks the pickup, the boys' first scenes are done in silence, but so much goes on that we have to get used to understanding that using "gestures and looks" as well as words is the usual way of communicating in the society in which they grew up!  The fist sentence in the film isn't spoken until four and a half minutes have gone by, and neither of the main characters speak (other than that throwaway curse) in the first six and a half minutes!  The movie tells us how to watch it, that gestures and looks are going to be equally important as the spoken word, because they are equally important to the boys.

The opening scenes certainly sets the tone of their attraction, if not their love.  And the fact that it was done with very little dialog again shows off the wonderful acting of the two protagonists.   The emotions are mirrored purely on looks.  And it is clear to me that the attraction was present from the very start.

[tpe]

As far as I'm concerned the eyes tell the story in a big way.
The scene where they come outside the trailor and Jack is smoking , staring staight ahead and Ennis appears to be fascinated with his new watch , , finnally makes eye contact with Jack as they shook hans ( only for a micro-sec (it's so humanly real when an object of desire is so close and in your face)for me this split second of akwardness makes me smile for some reason. They've both have gotten jobs for the summer, together. The introduction to each other is filled with telling , but hidden messages. I say again watch the eyes, especially Jack's. They  not only search Ennis's eyes but he gives Ennis the full body "once over" And twice over .  Maybe he was'nt in love with him yet but He definitly shows he's interested in finding out more. Oh... and what's up with the lip-licking? Oh my!
 Loved the way the friendship developed first sharing the camp building etc. Jack's concern after the bear incident. Ennis's subtle kindnesses and concerns, shooting the elk etc.. I am struck by the scene in which it is storming, Ennis is wittling a wooden horse, looking up to see Jack and at the sky. Perhaps he was worried that Jack was safe and warm...and dry?  Sweet. I too cannot pin-point the exact monent they fell in love but SNIT in the tent proved it happened along the way somewhere.I think it was a suprise to both of them.

I agree.  The wonderful eye contact is sometimes the best way to fathom their growing love for watch other.  Again, this touches on the use of silences throughout this movie.  There is a wonderful economy in the use of the eyes and in the facial expressions to hint at the love between them.  But it also adds to the mystery as to when exactly then fall in love.  IT was a very subtle development, only hinted at in small gestures and meaningful looks...

[tpe]

It is amazing to me that the issue of when they fell in love is so important to us and keeps cropping up over and over.  I think it is a most difficult question.  I think it's easier to figure out when they KNEW they were in love, than when they actually FELL in love.

Subtle distinction here.  But yes, knowing how one feels is much easier to decipher than tracing the evolution of that feeling, and when exactly it crosses a certain threshold.

[tpe]

Here's a thought that just occurred to me that you might want to kick around: On Brokeback, Jack and Ennis have agreed to agree that they are 2 straight boys engaging in some sport sex for the summer.  That's what I think "I ain't queer, me neither," means.  - We can screw our brains out all summer long, as long as we don't mean it.  We've agreed that neither of us is queer so, in the long tradition of lonely, separated from the rest of the world heterosexual male pairs, we can have as much sport sex out here as we want, and no one but us will know, so we won't have to pay for it back home.
 But one thing happens on Brokeback that we don't find out until the big fight, when Jack remembers the drowsy embrace.  It stands apart because it is "artless and sexless."  With no thought, plan or ulterior goal, Ennis comes to him at the fire to say goodbye for the day, and he is in no hurry to let go and get going.  I think he remembers it at this time because that's the first time he thinks that maybe there's some "feeling" behind the sex, after all he's really liking this and this ain't sex.  It might occur to him to wish that maybe they aren't two straight guys after all.  He's warmed further at the thought, but knows it can't be because Ennis is straight - they've talked about it and have graciously accepted each other's lie for truth.  Of course, they're both so infatuated with the idea of each other that neither of them knows or could even think that the other guy is lying, too.  But this time their contact is different: Ennis holds Jack and rocks him, hums to him, breathes with him, gives him a heartbeat to feel, and tells Jack to hit the hay as he is leaving.  This truly sweet moment is the first point of awareness for either of them that this summer fling but could become a lifetime craving.  Ennis doesn't notice any of this, not until after the final fight.  That's my vote for when their love did start.  Until a new thought comes along. 
  (Of course they started to fall in love when they first met, but with no experience, they didn't know what they were up to, or what was up with them, until Jack caught on in the DE.  Poor bastard couldn't tell "straight" Ennis that he had feelings for him too - might be taken the wrong way.)

Beautifully stated, zephK!  Perhaps the "Dozy Embrace" does indeed mark the advent of love at its most essential aspect.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

Beautifully stated, zephK!  Perhaps the "Dozy Embrace" does indeed mark the advent of love at its most essential aspect.

I second that.  Just reading zephk's assessment of the Dozy Embrace has me thinking I will probably cry harder during that scene on my next viewing. :\'(

[tpe]

I second that.  Just reading zephk's assessment of the Dozy Embrace has me thinking I will probably cry harder during that scene on my next viewing. :\'(

The same here CSC.  It struck me to think that the Dozy Embrace marked a true beginning, in contradistinction to the last meeting, which marked a true end.

[welshwitch]

Sometimes I think the dozy embrace was the moment when they were in love; what went before took them to that point, and what went after took them further away, or was only a series of attempts to get back to it.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

I think I should have waited until I was home for the evening before reading these last two posts. :\'(

[tpe]

Sometimes I think the dozy embrace was the moment when they were in love; what went before took them to that point, and what went after took them further away, or was only a series of attempts to get back to it.

I have convinced myself that the Dozy Embrace is indeed the first true manifestation of true love between them.

Interesting that we see it so close to the end of it all.  This makes it all the more powerful.

[zephK]

  I think the DE was just that point in their first summer on Brokeback when Jack realized that they might really not be just two straight guys horsing around.  This is the only moment during the Summer of Sex of non-sexual close contact the two boys share, and it's quite romantic (to quote 'Coyote Ugly, "There was hardly a dry seat in the house."), reason enough to start Jack wanting more.

[welshwitch]

It's interesting that though we think of Jack as the more demonstrative one and  the one with the higher sex drive, as he apparently does himself, it's still that moment of the closeness that comes after the desire for sex is temporarily satiated that he remembers and longs for in later years, because like all of us he knows when he is loved, not just desired, with the  sort of love that lasts.

[zephK]

It's interesting that though we think of Jack as the more demonstrative one and  the one with the higher sex drive, as he apparently does himself, it's still that moment of the closeness that comes after the desire for sex is temporarily satiated that he remembers and longs for in later years, because like all of us he knows when he is loved, not just desired, with the  sort of love that lasts.

  Yes, WW, but the bear of it all is that Ennis does not see it as more than rough-house sex until a year later when he finally figures out that that wasn't a bad meal that had him crying in the alleyway.  I do not agree with those who blame Ennis for this:  he is just like the rest of us, incapable of acting beyond his expectations of reality - he knows he's not queer because he finds Alma attractive enough that he's engaged to marry her.  He finds out so many things too late, like that he'd much rather be in Jack's arms than anywhere else, that we look for a reason.  And there it is, presented to us at the reunion campfire: Earl's tortured body.  That event drove little Ennis into such a state of panic and confusion, he's still there nearly til he's 39!

[jackster]

. . . it's still that moment of the closeness that comes after the desire for sex is temporarily satiated that he remembers and longs for in later years, because like all of us he knows when he is loved, not just desired, with the  sort of love that lasts.

I've always found it interesting that in the Dozy Embrace it is Ennis who is the initiator and who comes to embrace the groggy and stone-still Jack. Probably why Jack remembered it for years, he became the focus of all the attention and all the emotions being projected by his love. It was a one-way transmission, Ennis-to-Jack, he was able to simply soak up the love.

[zephK]

I've always found it interesting that in the Drowsy Embrace it is Ennis who is the initiator and who comes to embrace the groggy and stone-still Jack. Probably why Jack remembered it for years, he became the focus of all the attention and all the emotions being projected by his love. It was a one-way transmission, Ennis-to-Jack, he was able to simply soak up the love.

How true Jackster.  But you know, I have known people who use this memory to indict Ennis because the drowsy embrace was not face to face!  For me it's always been logical that Jack gets up from making breakfast and is waiting for Ennis to leave so he can get back to bed.  Ennis comes toward Jack who is warming himself at the fire, facing it, not Ennis, so Ennis rather than turn him around embraces him from behind, warming that side of him too.  (And me.)  As I say, I think this is the first communal moment when Jack thinks for sure that there's more to this "thing" than rough snorting laughing sex.  (Like there'd be something wrong with that.)   

[BBBOY]

How true Jackster.  But you know, I have known people who use this memory to indict Ennis because the drowsy embrace was not face to face!  For me it's always been logical that Jack gets up from making breakfast and is waiting for Ennis to leave so he can get back to bed.  Ennis comes toward Jack who is warming himself at the fire, facing it, not Ennis, so Ennis rather than turn him around embraces him from behind, warming that side of him too.  (And me.)  As I say, I think this is the first communal moment when Jack thinks for sure that there's more to this "thing" than rough snorting laughing sex.  (Like there'd be something wrong with that.)   

Probably some of the greatest lines Annie Proulx has ever written were about the drowsy embrace. By now Jack has fallen in love as has Ennis, but neither one of them are ready to accept that which they were raised to reject and hate. Jack is more suseptible to understanding what it was all about than Ennis, but for both of them, lonely, isolated, ignorant young men, it went beyond sex, it was a connection of soul and spirit. IMHO that is the power of the episode, both in the movie and the SS. It is the glue which hold the whole thing together. How many of us have wanted more than just sex and never found it?

[zephK]

   ..or maybe worse, thought they found it and were proved incorrect.

[welshwitch]

Warmed by the fire in front oif him, and Ennis's arms from behind - just for once Jack is surrounded by the love he seeks.

[zephK]

And just for once, Ennis can hold another human being and release some of the love within him without fear of rejection or death.  His parents died on him when he was a kid, his sister married and left, and his brother married and pitched him out.  He's never been near anyone like Jack f*ckin' Twist.  He's clueless but in love.