Topic: Why cremation?

[vedrana]

I am with you Carmilla. Loreen still has feelings for Jack, and so she shed a tear when Ennis called. Old John Twist was a bully even when Jack's dead. He made his family plot sound like a dagn prison, just like the desolate plain, his ranch was a prison to young Jack's boyhood spirit. It's genius from Ang and Heath to have Ennis, as he was leaving, to look up longingly at the window of Jack's room, and the tiny white-picket fenced-in family plot. It's the motivation for Ennis, in the final scene, to set Jack free, "I swear."

This is so true. Old bully wanted to imprison Jack's spirit, just like he had imprisoned his boyhood spirit!  :\'(

Although it certainly had a bad impact on Jack, I think that he was free - as a boy, young man and particularly in spirit! Cos it wasn't just anybody, it was our Jack! 

[tpe]

Goodness gracious, so many interesting new threads you guys are working on.

Here are my contributions:

Cremation has been a tradition for many cultures, from norse to hindus to other asian cultures. It may not be a greco-christian tradition, but it is not totally unusual.

I think Jack wanted to spend eternity on Brokeback Mountain, with or without Ennis, which meant cremation so the ashes can be moved there. I was surprised at only half went back, and the other half stayed in Texas. That was probably Loreen's idea because she really loved him. She would not have tears, and kept half his ashes if she killed him. That's just unthinkable, in my opinion. It would be totally out of character. She was not a vengeful person. She buried herself in her work and family after Jack started drinking. A vengeful woman would have kicked his ass out of there and divorced him long ago. She was still in love with the debonair cowboy who rushed to pick up her hat, who was too shy to approach her at the dance. She was a victim of Ennis and Jack, not a murderer. The only aggression in her was in the backseat of her daddy's car.

I certainly see your point, lance.  Somehow, I also felt that in her own way, Lureen did love Jack, and probably felt betrayed.  Although this contradicts my feeling sometimes that she was somehow involved in Jack's death, it only shows how many unanswered questions remains with us still.  The subject of cremation is certainly an opening into this discussion.

[tpe]

For me cremation is not a strange solution - or the whole thing that a person is thinking his death and burial already at a young age. In the movie the worst thing about burial is John Twist's strong denial, the angry "no". "Tell you what, we got a family plot and he's goin' in it." Jack's ashes belonged to Brokeback Mountain!!!!

yes, I do find it a bit strange that Jack thought about his death even though he was relatively young.  This is why I felt that he probably just expressed the wish for cremation out loud, and not formally in a will.  On one hand, it is unusual for someone so young to make out a will, correct?  On the other hand, perhaps taking on a family made him make one, in which he explicitly requested for cremation. But I think the latter case is more the exception than the rule -- even today.

[Raisa]

yes, I do find it a bit strange that Jack thought about his death even though he was relatively young.  This is why I felt that he probably just expressed the wish for cremation out loud, and not formally in a will.  On one hand, it is unusual for someone so young to make out a will, correct?  On the other hand, perhaps taking on a family made him make one, in which he explicitly requested for cremation. But I think the latter case is more the exception than the rule -- even today.

I agree when thinking about Jack's character. It is hard to combine thoughts about death with young Jack - death seemed to be very far far away from his thoughts when he was boy and young man, and actually that kind of thoughts are not easy to connect even to older Jack. But when I recall Jack's and Ennis' last moment together, "all we got now is Brokeback", I can imagine him thinking of death and the wish of cremation.

[tpe]

I agree when thinking about Jack's character. It is hard to combine thoughts about death with young Jack - death seemed to be very far far away from his thoughts when he was boy and young man, and actually that kind of thoughts are not easy to connect even to older Jack. But when I recall Jack's and Ennis' last moment together, "all we got now is Brokeback", I can imagine him thinking of death and the wish of cremation.

Hmmm.  Perhaps.  But I would have liked to think that Jack treasured life dearly, and not even the Last Confrontation would have dampened his desire to live his life to the fullest.

The wish for cremation certainly is unexpected, given his temperament and the times and the society in which he lived.

[vedrana]

Hmmm.  Perhaps.  But I would have liked to think that Jack treasured life dearly, and not even the Last Confrontation would have dampened his desire to live his life to the fullest.

The wish for cremation certainly is unexpected, given his temperament and the times and the society in which he lived.

I agree with you here. I can't see Jack thinking about the death especially during FC. He was angry and resignated and disappointed in a way, but not willing to die. he wanted to live to the fullest. That's why we like him.

I also agree when you say that his wish to be cremated was not written and official. But surely was the result of his lifetime wish to go back to the place he loved the most - to Brokeback!

We can speculate that he maybe really had some reasonable fear that something was going to happen to him cos his life style. Who knows? He mentioned this to Ennis but in a deliberately changed circumstances - like Randall or Lureen were going to kill him cos having an affair with LeShawn! Did we already get the hint there? And because of that fear, he expressed his wish for cremation and to returning to Brokeback to Lureen? 

[lancecowboy]

I don't see Jack thinking about death and making out a will, either. However, Lureen being the methodical person who looks after every penny, would surely have done it to protect young Bobby. And she probably took care of all the detail for Jack. He probably had a life insurance policy, with Bobby as the beneficiary. As would Lureen.

I can see a conversation, casual and family in nature, where Lureen simply asked Jack about it, and he would reply that his favorite place is Brokeback Mountain, that's where he'd like to spend eternity. And Lureen would say that's an awfully long way away. To that Jack would reply, "Not if you have me cremated." So the conversation probably stuck in her mind when the occasion called for it.

If she had anything to do with his death, ALL his ashes would be gone from Texas. She was a victim in a relationship that, like Princess Diana said, had one too many people in it. She couldn't fix it so she gotta stand it, the best she could. She couldn't part with all of him, so she kept the half of the ashes that she had. The tears that she shed in the phone conversation, could be also her realization that she should have sent all of it to Brokeback, because that's where his heart and soul was all these years.

[babytammy7]

I can see a conversation, casual and family in nature, where Lureen simply asked Jack about it, and he would reply that his favorite place is Brokeback Mountain, that's where he'd like to spend eternity. And Lureen would say that's an awfully long way away. To that Jack would reply, "Not if you have me cremated." So the conversation probably stuck in her mind when the occasion called for it.

Babe, Lureen thought that BBM was not real, that it was a place created by Jack's mind.  But I get what you're saying and I agree.

[jesseanne21]

I don't see Jack thinking about death and making out a will, either. However, Lureen being the methodical person who looks after every penny, would surely have done it to protect young Bobby. And she probably took care of all the detail for Jack. He probably had a life insurance policy, with Bobby as the beneficiary. As would Lureen.

Also, in the BBM short story, Lureen's father, L.D., had died (sometime after Ennis' divorce).  The death of a family member is usually a time when people start thinking about their own mortality and Jack and Lureen may have discussed their wishes then.

[lancecowboy]

Babe, Lureen thought that BBM was not real, that it was a place created by Jack's mind.  But I get what you're saying and I agree.

This is an interesting point that I've always wondered about, that Lureen thought Brokeback Mountain was just a pretend place where blue birds sing with a whiskey spring. Yet, she sent half of Jack's ashes out to his folks thinking they would know where it is. Then when Ennis mentioned they spent a summer tending sheep there, she got all choked up with tears, and almost hung up on Ennis. It's like she'd prefer to think it was a pretend place, instead of finding out her husband was happiest at the age of nineteen tending sheep with another man. It's almost as bad as finding the husband was happier with another woman, or is it?

What could Jack have said to her, about Brokeback Mountain, that it would have such an impact from a simple declaration from Ennis?

[tpe]

I agree with you here. I can't see Jack thinking about the death especially during FC. He was angry and resignated and disappointed in a way, but not willing to die. he wanted to live to the fullest. That's why we like him.

I also agree when you say that his wish to be cremated was not written and official. But surely was the result of his lifetime wish to go back to the place he loved the most - to Brokeback!

We can speculate that he maybe really had some reasonable fear that something was going to happen to him cos his life style. Who knows? He mentioned this to Ennis but in a deliberately changed circumstances - like Randall or Lureen were going to kill him cos having an affair with LeShawn! Did we already get the hint there? And because of that fear, he expressed his wish for cremation and to returning to Brokeback to Lureen? 

Well, cremation was probably the easiest way for his body to be trasported to BBM, so in this sense, the wish to be cremated is certainly in keeping with the desire to be brought to the Mountain after his death.

And yes, Jack must have somehow been aware at sosme level of the risks he was taking.  But given that Lureen had said -- about his saying that BBM was his favorite place in the world and all that -- I would assume that his comment about wanting to have his ashes brought to the Mountain was driven less by fear.  It was a desire to somehow live the happiest time of his life forever.

 

[tpe]

I don't see Jack thinking about death and making out a will, either. However, Lureen being the methodical person who looks after every penny, would surely have done it to protect young Bobby. And she probably took care of all the detail for Jack. He probably had a life insurance policy, with Bobby as the beneficiary. As would Lureen.

I can see a conversation, casual and family in nature, where Lureen simply asked Jack about it, and he would reply that his favorite place is Brokeback Mountain, that's where he'd like to spend eternity. And Lureen would say that's an awfully long way away. To that Jack would reply, "Not if you have me cremated." So the conversation probably stuck in her mind when the occasion called for it.

This is a good point.  Quite possible.  It is certainly in keeping with Lureen's thoroughness.

If she had anything to do with his death, ALL his ashes would be gone from Texas. She was a victim in a relationship that, like Princess Diana said, had one too many people in it. She couldn't fix it so she gotta stand it, the best she could. She couldn't part with all of him, so she kept the half of the ashes that she had. The tears that she shed in the phone conversation, could be also her realization that she should have sent all of it to Brokeback, because that's where his heart and soul was all these years.

Well, it could have been for the sake of appearances.  It would have been odd had she refused a part of him to stay in Texas.  And it would have been suspicious.  Nonetheless, her complicity in Jack's death remains a subject of pure speculation/interpretation.  And there is no real proof for it, IMO. 

OT: there was some discussion a long time ago as to whether the tears were genuine or rehearsed -- as in her giving the explanation of the death seemingly by rote.

[tpe]

Babe, Lureen thought that BBM was not real, that it was a place created by Jack's mind.  But I get what you're saying and I agree.

Also, in the BBM short story, Lureen's father, L.D., had died (sometime after Ennis' divorce).  The death of a family member is usually a time when people start thinking about their own mortality and Jack and Lureen may have discussed their wishes then.

Hmmmm.  Also very good points. 

[vedrana]

This is an interesting point that I've always wondered about, that Lureen thought Brokeback Mountain was just a pretend place where blue birds sing with a whiskey spring. Yet, she sent half of Jack's ashes out to his folks thinking they would know where it is. Then when Ennis mentioned they spent a summer tending sheep there, she got all choked up with tears, and almost hung up on Ennis. It's like she'd prefer to think it was a pretend place, instead of finding out her husband was happiest at the age of nineteen tending sheep with another man. It's almost as bad as finding the husband was happier with another woman, or is it?

What could Jack have said to her, about Brokeback Mountain, that it would have such an impact from a simple declaration from Ennis?

Very good Lance!
Jack had probably gave a very clear point how he loved Brokeback mountain, but at the same time, he gave no concrete data, cos she didn't know where is it (or she just pretended no to know?). Also,she didn't know that it was Ennis with him up there on Brokeback. For her Ennis was his fishing buddy, nothing more.. well, until he said that he had tended sheep with Jack. At that moment things got pretty clear.
I think that for woman it is the same if her husband was more happy with another man or woman. Maybe it is even worse with a man, cos it's an unfamiliar area and she can't understand it.

[vedrana]

Well, it could have been for the sake of appearances.  It would have been odd had she refused a part of him to stay in Texas.  And it would have been suspicious.  Nonetheless, her complicity in Jack's death remains a subject of pure speculation/interpretation.  And there is no real proof for it, IMO. 

OT: there was some discussion a long time ago as to whether the tears were genuine or rehearsed -- as in her giving the explanation of the death seemingly by rote.

I don't think that it would be odd to give all Jack's ashes to his parents if that was his wish, and that wouldn't be suspicious IMO.
Lureen was a cold person, but not emotionless. She really felt sorry for losing Jack. Ennis couldn't see her tears, so she didn't need to cry in front of a receiver.

[lancecowboy]

Very good Lance!
Jack had probably gave a very clear point how he loved Brokeback mountain, but at the same time, he gave no concrete data, cos she didn't know where is it (or she just pretended no to know?). Also,she didn't know that it was Ennis with him up there on Brokeback. For her Ennis was his fishing buddy, nothing more.. well, until he said that he had tended sheep with Jack. At that moment things got pretty clear.
I think that for woman it is the same if her husband was more happy with another man or woman. Maybe it is even worse with a man, cos it's an unfamiliar area and she can't understand it.

This reminds me of Alma seeing them kissing at the foot of the stairs. This made a lot of sense of the tears, and her hanging up on Ennis.

I don't think that it would be odd to give all Jack's ashes to his parents if that was his wish, and that wouldn't be suspicious IMO.
Lureen was a cold person, but not emotionless. She really felt sorry for losing Jack. Ennis couldn't see her tears, so she didn't need to cry in front of a receiver.

I'd never given much thought to Lureen being a murderer, nor implicit in Jack's death. I always felt the tears were genuine, and now it makes a lot of sense. She was in the same place that Alma was in sixteen years earlier.

[vedrana]

This reminds me of Alma seeing them kissing at the foot of the stairs. This made a lot of sense of the tears, and her hanging up on Ennis.
I'd never given much thought to Lureen being a murderer, nor implicit in Jack's death. I always felt the tears were genuine, and now it makes a lot of sense. She was in the same place that Alma was in sixteen years earlier.

I never draw a line between two wives, but it is so. Both of them were shocked, much more than they'd be if it was a female lover. Alma had a chance to clear it up with Ennis, but failed to do so on time, and Lureen had no chance to do that, but I'm sure if Jack was alive she would've asked him about it.

[babytammy7]

This is an interesting point that I've always wondered about, that Lureen thought Brokeback Mountain was just a pretend place where blue birds sing with a whiskey spring. Yet, she sent half of Jack's ashes out to his folks thinking they would know where it is. Then when Ennis mentioned they spent a summer tending sheep there, she got all choked up with tears, and almost hung up on Ennis. It's like she'd prefer to think it was a pretend place, instead of finding out her husband was happiest at the age of nineteen tending sheep with another man. It's almost as bad as finding the husband was happier with another woman, or is it?

What could Jack have said to her, about Brokeback Mountain, that it would have such an impact from a simple declaration from Ennis?

Hey babe!! 

Oh well, I don’t think that Lureen really knew that BBM was a real place. Jack asked for his ashes to be scattered there, but Lureen thought that that place was only in Jack’s mind and that’s why she kept half of the ashes and the other half she sent them to Jack’s folks. Had she thought that Jack’s folk maybe knew where BBM was, she had asked them about it or maybe even give them all the ashes. But she kept a part of those ashes and sent the rest so his parents could keep with them a part of their son. She said to Ennis that Jack’s parents had half of the ashes, she said that meaning that they still had them and that Ennis could go and see them and maybe get the ashes to BBM. If she had suspected that Jack’s parents knew where BBM was, she had not said to Ennis that Jack’s folks had the ashes, because Ennis found out about Jack’s death months after he died, so had Lureen thought that Jack’s parents knew where BBM was, she’d have thought that they had already scattered the ashes. Hope that makes sense, because I can’t explain it well with my broken English. Sorry. 

Lureen looked totally convinced that BBM was not real, and that’s why she starting to cry. She realized there and then that she really didn’t know Jack at all. Her husband had a favourite place, the one where he was the happiest, and she knew so little about the real Jack, about the dreamer, about the kind soul, that she thought that he was talking about a fantasy, maybe even a product of the whiskey. How much can it hurt if you suddenly find out that your husband was REALLY sharing important things with you, talking to you about his hopes and dreams and the places he loved the most, and you were so busy with work, or just so tired or bored with the marriage that you ignored it all and thought that it was only a pretended place? God, that must hurt and make you feel pretty stupid and blind and…guilty, guilty for not having listened to the man she loved, because Lureen never said a word to help Jack when her father was mean to him, she never gave him any credit, and I’m sure she felt bad about it; and then when Ennis told her that not, it was a real place, she must felt terribly bad because, again, she had not given Jack any credit and now she was smacked in the face with the truth that her husband was not a pissant enough drunk to talk about pretended paradises, but a honest man who was sharing with her a very important part of his heart and a big secret by telling her that Brokeback was the place he loved the most in the world.

[lancecowboy]

[...]
Lureen looked totally convinced that BBM was not real, and that’s why she starting to cry. She realized there and then that she really didn’t know Jack at all. Her husband had a favourite place, the one where he was the happiest, and she knew so little about the real Jack, about the dreamer, about the kind soul, that she thought that he was talking about a fantasy, maybe even a product of the whiskey. How much can it hurt if you suddenly find out that your husband was REALLY sharing important things with you, talking to you about his hopes and dreams and the places he loved the most, and you were so busy with work, or just so tired or bored with the marriage that you ignored it all and thought that it was only a pretended place? God, that must hurt and make you feel pretty stupid and blind and…guilty, guilty for not having listened to the man she loved, because Lureen never said a word to help Jack when her father was mean to him, she never gave him any credit, and I’m sure she felt bad about it; and then when Ennis told her that not, it was a real place, she must felt terribly bad because, again, she had not given Jack any credit and now she was smacked in the face with the truth that her husband was not a pissant enough drunk to talk about pretended paradises, but a honest man who was sharing with her a very important part of his heart and a big secret by telling her that Brokeback was the place he loved the most in the world.

I never thought about that. You are right, Tammy. Those tears could have been her guilt, her regret. Brokeback Mountain has so many layers, it's never ending trying to understand all the different emotions in it.
 

[vedrana]

BT, you amaze me each time I see how deep you are in this story. 

Really looooove your posts. Each time, I learn something new, and then I think- OMG this is so logical, how come I never got it before. 

 

Thank you babe!

[tpe]

I don't think that it would be odd to give all Jack's ashes to his parents if that was his wish, and that wouldn't be suspicious IMO.
Lureen was a cold person, but not emotionless. She really felt sorry for losing Jack. Ennis couldn't see her tears, so she didn't need to cry in front of a receiver.

I don't think it would have been the usual thing here in the USA, however.  For a husband to be interred far from where his wife and son lived would have been quite strange.  And it's not that Lureen didn't have or couldn't afford a burial plot closer to home.  It would definitely have looked strange.

[tpe]

Lureen looked totally convinced that BBM was not real, and that’s why she starting to cry. She realized there and then that she really didn’t know Jack at all.

I agree.  This gets me thinking.  Suppose that the request for cremation came from Jack.  Did Lureen find it strange?  Would she have considered regular burial had she had it been up to her?

[vedrana]

I don't think it would have been the usual thing here in the USA, however.  For a husband to be interred far from where his wife and son lived would have been quite strange.  And it's not that Lureen didn't have or couldn't afford a burial plot closer to home.  It would definitely have looked strange.

OK, I admit! Have no idea about American customs. What I was thinking is that it shouldn't be strange if wife respected her husband's last wish even if it's out of the custom, especially cos she already followed his wish to be cremated... 

[babytammy7]

I never thought about that. You are right, Tammy. Those tears could have been her guilt, her regret. Brokeback Mountain has so many layers, it's never ending trying to understand all the different emotions in it.
 

You're very welcome, babe. 

I'm so glad you think I got it right!! 

BT, you amaze me each time I see how deep you are in this story. 

Really looooove your posts. Each time, I learn something new, and then I think- OMG this is so logical, how come I never got it before. 

 

Thank you babe!

Hey, honey. You're SO sweet. Thank you!!! 

It happens to me every time. I read brokies posts and I'm amazed at them and I can't stop wondering why I didn't see before what they so clearly see.

Still, this is only my opinion, babe, and I can be wrong, right? 

[vedrana]

Hey, honey. You're SO sweet. Thank you!!! 

It happens to me every time. I read brokies posts and I'm amazed at them and I can't stop wondering why I didn't see before what they so clearly see.

Still, this is only my opinion, babe, and I can be wrong, right? 

There's no right or wrong. There's only more or less logical explanation. And yours is logical (+ emotional ).

Besides, I believe that BBM is most about regrets. Here you very lucidly pointed out Lureen's regrets. Regrets of missing the opportunity to know and to love her husband. 

[tpe]

OK, I admit! Have no idea about American customs. What I was thinking is that it shouldn't be strange if wife respected her husband's last wish even if it's out of the custom, especially cos she already followed his wish to be cremated... 

Well, that's true that an explicit wish would have been honored somehow.  But I do think it was natural to keep some of the ashes with her, even as she dispatched the rest elsewhere.

A deceased friend of mine was of the same generation as Ennis and Jack.  Although not in his will, he had mentioned to his lover his wish that his ashes be scattered in a certain palazzo in Venice.  When they cremated him, they kept some of his ashes in a niche by the church he attended once in a while for social reasons (he didn't believe in God and would have hated being interred there, IMO).  But the rest was secretly scattered in Venice.  Cremation lends it self naturally to such a division, I guess.  We can't distribute body parts in this way -- unless you were some Catholic saint, that is. 

[vedrana]

Well, that's true that an explicit wish would have been honored somehow.  But I do think it was natural to keep some of the ashes with her, even as she dispatched the rest elsewhere.

A deceased friend of mine was of the same generation as Ennis and Jack.  Although not in his will, he had mentioned to his lover his wish that his ashes be scattered in a certain palazzo in Venice.  When they cremated him, they kept some of his ashes in a niche by the church he attended once in a while for social reasons (he didn't believe in God and would have hated being interred there, IMO).  But the rest was secretly scattered in Venice.  Cremation lends it self naturally to such a division, I guess.  We can't distribute body parts in this way -- unless you were some Catholic saint, that is. 

OMG, no! Not the body parts, even there were some saints whose body parts were fought for... I don't like it.

I am not fond of cremation myself and have no particular reasons. I like a cemetery with a lit candles and all, and gives me a certain peace. Therefore, I was very surprised by Lureen's words that Jack had expressed this wish. I thought that if his body somehow was still here, it  would be different. But when you burn someone to the ashes... it is so definite, that I couldn't accept it. The funny thing is that the result would be the same either way (cremated or buried) , but the appearance isn't...IMO

[tpe]

OMG, no! Not the body parts, even there were some saints whose body parts were fought for... I don't like it.

I am not fond of cremation myself and have no particular reasons. I like a cemetery with a lit candles and all, and gives me a certain peace. Therefore, I was very surprised by Lureen's words that Jack had expressed this wish. I thought that if his body somehow was still here, it  would be different. But when you burn someone to the ashes... it is so definite, that I couldn't accept it. The funny thing is that the result would be the same either way (cremated or buried) , but the appearance isn't...IMO

Well, one can still have all that in the case of cremation -- the ashes would occupy a smaller space, to be sure.  In the case of my father, we exhumed his remains in 2006, cremated it, and reinterred him in a new enclosed family chapel.  Granted, it is now inside a church and not in a cemetery, but it is easier to visit him now...

[vedrana]

Well, one can still have all that in the case of cremation -- the ashes would occupy a smaller space, to be sure.  In the case of my father, we exhumed his remains in 2006, cremated it, and reinterred him in a new enclosed family chapel.  Granted, it is now inside a church and not in a cemetery, but it is easier to visit him now...

The family chapel is inside the church?  I'm sure I got it worng..
Here, only saints and important persons can be buried inside the church. Otherwise it's always cemetery, a lot of people have also a family graves. In fact, we are a small country and only in our Capitol there's a crematories, and in my hometown a cemetery is growing daily.

[tpe]

The family chapel is inside the church?  I'm sure I got it worng..
Here, only saints and important persons can be buried inside the church. Otherwise it's always cemetery, a lot of people have also a family graves. In fact, we are a small country and only in our Capitol there's a crematories, and in my hometown a cemetery is growing daily.

Yes, the family chapel is inside a church.    The catholic church nowadays forbids direct burials inside churches, but the ashes or bones of a person can be re-interred inside in a side chapel or crypt.  But go to any old catholic churches everywhere and you see old tombs and monuments inside -- from a time when this was permitted -- and you even see people buried in the floors and in the walls.

But to go back to the original topic: I do think that for Jack or a part of him to be transported easily to BBM, cremation was very convenient.