Topic: From friendship to intimacy - how convinced were you?

[christie wood]

This is something I've thought about often since watching BBM the first time. Because I'd read a lot of reviews beforehand, I knew that a night in the tent to keep warm would bring Ennis and Jack together, but wasn't sure how convincing it was going to be for two cowboys to go from being essentially work colleagues to lovers - but after my first viewing I knew:  IT WAS JUST SO RIGHT and TOTALLY CONVINCING.  The initial awkwardness between them (more on Ennis's part admittedly), then the growing friendship round the fire, drinking whiskey and talking, shooting elks and jokes about Jack's harmonica playing - all served to lead us to that scene, when Ennis, cold and drunk, crashes into the tent and lies beside Jack, who takes Ennis's hand and holds him close......

Even after seeing the film three times, I still think it's a beautifully observed, and beautifully acted part of an amazing film that gives us the most heartbreaking love story.

 :'( :'( :'(

[shieldmaid]

I thought the progression from friends to more-than was quite convincing, especially given Ennis ordering soup when he knows Jack is sick of beans, and Jack trying to tend to Ennis's injured face after he sees the bear. . . .  And the second tent scene surely couldn't have taken place in such close proximity to their first intimate encounter if there weren't already some tender feelings there.  Sighhhhh.

[jason]

This is something I've thought about often since watching BBM the first time. Because I'd read a lot of reviews beforehand, I knew that a night in the tent to keep warm would bring Ennis and Jack together, but wasn't sure how convincing it was going to be for two cowboys to go from being essentially work colleagues to lovers - but after my first viewing I knew:  IT WAS JUST SO RIGHT and TOTALLY CONVINCING.  The initial awkwardness between them (more on Ennis's part admittedly), then the growing friendship round the fire, drinking whiskey and talking, shooting elks and jokes about Jack's harmonica playing - all served to lead us to that scene, when Ennis, cold and drunk, crashes into the tent and lies beside Jack, who takes Ennis's hand and holds him close......

Even after seeing the film three times, I still think it's a beautifully observed, and beautifully acted part of an amazing film that gives us the most heartbreaking love story.

 :'( :'( :'(

Christie, I think you are quite right. I was convinced by the real life build-up.  Here's something I put on another thread where this issue got some airing.  I was responding to a male colleague who had been disappointed at the unromantic build-up to the intimacy (he wanted a Hollywood, cliched thing I spose).  Here's the thread:

Quote from: paradigm69 on Jan 20, 2006, 03:58 PM
IMHO, there was absolutely nothing gratuitous about Jack washing his clothes in the buff.  I mean, when you are on top of a mountain and that removed from all signs of civilization, at one with nature, I would DEF have done the same thing.  I would imagine that given the circumstances he/they were in, one would lose their inhibitions very quickly.  One would feel right at home being naked...

I think you're quite right.  Perfectly normal behavior, especially when there aren't too many clothes (as the book says).

But this scene is just one of many (a real and specific theme by Ang Lee I think) expressing the natural flow towards an increasingly mutual and  domestical camp life (I shd say camping life). 

Within all the general camping activity like packing horses, whittling in the tent on a rainy day, etc, there are several overt scenes which I think are meant to show a deepening common life.  They cook a lot, with the camera pointed at the pan, less at Ennis.  There's the Ennis washing scene, they put up a tent, they take it down, they drink often and in detail, from the same bottle; Jack's in the buff washing Ennis' shirt, etc. Jack goes off to piss (book makes a bit of a deal of this). 

I think the creators are using these scenes to make the progress to an intimate life seem more likely, inevitable Proulx says.

The funny thing is, all the domesticity seems to take the place of overt romantic flirtatious behavior.  I know a guy who was completely disappointed with the movie because all these opportunities for hard core flirting in camp were wasted ! --  all this domestic stuff and almost never a look, he said!

Yes I know about Jack's quizzical look at the campfire that makes Ennis say "What?"  But that's real slim pickins, if you want a "regular" romance like my disappointed pal. 

What would a crude movie-maker have done with two fit young guys, deep in the woods, heading for the romance of their lives?  Result would have been completely regular and banal, and banale. Unremarkable. We wouldn't be here now.

Obviously I prefer Ang Lee's subtle approach, as being 100 x more powerful. ("...a billion times ... lovelier, more dangerous...", as the poet Hopkins says.)

IMHO:  in 1963 two straight macho guys would behave exactly as they did. With behaviors learned from a rural society that was much older -- think 1940s or further back. Jack's dad was probably born in the teens or 20s! Domesticity helped overcome the numerous barriers to their deeper involvement.

[christie wood]

Jason, thank you so much for that.  I wasn't sure if this topic had been brought up elsewhere, so apologies for repeating myself!  It was so wonderfully put though, and I have to totally agreed, as I've already said in my post, the build up was beautifully observed, very convincing and totally natural. 

Would have loved to have lots more looks and smiles though between Ennis and Jack.....though that's just me, forever wishful thinking!!!!

[matsuki33]

well i was really impressed by the way the develop their friendship to something more it was quite natural that you were like not surprised in the movie itself

[Rønnaug]

Like it has been sayd here, the looks, the drinkin', Ennis opening up about his siblings, ordering soup and tending wounds. All lead freom strangers to love....

But none of that woulda worked if Jake and Heath hadn't had chemistry... I TOTALLY believe thay are attracted to eachother, and that thay fall in love. I know thay as people aren't, but thay play it so believable.

[lovelydays]

The way their relationship built up convinced me. It wasn't the typical Hollywood movie relationship: We met, and three days later we're in love, but then you lied to me broke my heart and I love you again anyway. It was real and natural.

[jerasjr]

Yes from those first questioning looks to their explosive tent scene, things seemed to move along at a pace where they became more and more comfortable with each other.  One thing I've wanted to mention before is that Jack & Ennis seem so real to me, as if I might be able to introduce them to others that I know.  And I find myself thinking of them as Jack & Ennis and Alma, Lurleen, etc. as that.  Don't hink of them as Jake & Heath, Michelle, Ann.  The characters are more real than the actors.  Okay so  drifted away from the initial post... mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa...  It definitely was not a formula romance.

[n061857]

Yes from those first questioning looks to their explosive tent scene, things seemed to move along at a pace where they became more and more comfortable with each other.  One thing I've wanted to mention before is that Jack & Ennis seem so real to me, as if I might be able to introduce them to others that I know.  And I find myself thinking of them as Jack & Ennis and Alma, Lurleen, etc. as that.  Don't hink of them as Jake & Heath, Michelle, Ann.  The characters are more real than the actors.  Okay so  drifted away from the initial post... mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa...  It definitely was not a formula romance.

I loved when Ang Lee thanked Ennis and Jack at the academy awards, because THEY ARE REAL to me and I think to many others.  They are so real, that that is what makes this movie so moving.  I can see myself in both characters at different times in my life and I understand [perfectly their motivations.                             - Nancy

[frenchcda]

beyond belief, so in my own perspective they have come alive within my heart and soul, when I think or when I reflect upon the movie they are truly not Heath Ledger nor Jake Gyllenhaal, but they are truly two different entities that of Ennis Delmar and Jack Twist who once lived even if it is in our imagination, that is why dreams and wonders exist

[matsuki33]

well the way they develop their friendship was awesome, i saw the movie again yesterday and i paid attention on their relationship development this time, and i saw the way they were both looking their tents at the beginning, how they passed from not talking to themselves and then to open their hearts to each other. and then the way they react on when they were going to separate, then the reunion, they way they were in the times they were together was awesome. it was so real, maybe is the reason of why we like this movie, because is not a hollywood story, in which the fall in love two days later they swear love to the eternity no! this time was real, this time is a regular relationship something that happens everyday in our lives

[leanne]

you can see how Ennis opens up to Jack from the scene when they're in the bar. Ennis mentions his parents, but doesn't talk about them  too much...but then when they're getting drunk around the fire, he suddenly opens up about them. It just shows how comfortable he felt around Jack, because ennis is NOT the sort of person to talk to anyone about what he went through.

[Sunflower79]

it defently seemed natural to me..with Jake an Ennis started talking or being friendly, to Ennis opening up as time went by...and Jack opening up about his life...it defently progressed well..showing the shyness, the flirting, the build up of feelings..until everything comes out in that first tent seen..with thier passion, longings extra..as time goes on..we see the intimacy grow between them, how comfortable they are around each other..I was defently convinced..being shy, and unsure and starting something either of them were aware of how it would change and effect thier lives...

[siredevienne38]

I think it was very convincing since Jack was the love of Ennis' life. Therefore he thought not to be gay because he was never ever interested in any other man than Jack. And he was the active part in their sexual relationship....

[Stephen]

All these wonderful posts got me to thinking: I have several friends who thought the film was "slow", but of course we here do not think so; sadly, many have been subjugated to in-your-face films for so long, that they have lost the ability to read and react to sublteties on the screen. The friendship to intimacy thread is a perfect example: if one is not sensitive to Ang Lee's subtle buildup of details, one would think the first tent scene was implausible. But in fact, every wordless picture in the first section of the film shows a progression of comraderie, trust, and finally intimacy between Jack and Ennis, as you all have pointed out.

[matsuki33]

totally agree

[christie wood]

totally agree

I second that matsuki33, wonderfully worded Stephen, thank you for saying what I was trying to say in the first place!!! 

[Stephen]

Christie; you said it beautifully--with details from the film---in your first post on this page; I was merely underscoring your point! Thanks for the topic.

[christie wood]

Christie; you said it beautifully--with details from the film---in your first post on this page; I was merely underscoring your point! Thanks for the topic.

stephen, thank you SO much for saying that - sometimes you wonder if what you've written is clear enough to other people other than yourself, and it's nice to know that in this case it is!

[n061857]

My sister didn't get the movie and didn't think the progression from friends to lovers progressed effectively.  I think we female are very wordy in general.  Perhaps she didn't see the love that was developing through their actions.  She has also never loved and lost in her life.  She married her first sweetheart.  I hate to say that she cannot be a very empathetic person, if she could not feel for those characters

[Stephen]

I,too, have several friends who just didn't "feel" the film: I think you're right about the fact that some people are more sensitive to words than they are to the filmic image. If Ang Lee's subtle use of action and image don't register, then the transition from casual friendship to intimacy will not be "seen"! One thing is for sure: with each viewing, nuance and subtext come through with more and more poignancy.   

[n061857]

You're right there.  The film really effected me to a much greater extent on the second viewing and with each subsequent viewing.  I see it once a week.  Each week now I fear it may be my last.  Although I am thankful it will soon be on DVD, I will REALLY miss seeing it on the big scene.  Such beautiful images. 

[dr bill]

I believe it was clear and convincing.  I think any of us would be drawn together if we were in similar circumstances.  They had to depend upon each other for survival.  The electricity grew over time...until the tension was like an electrical storm.  I experienced that electrical sensation with a friend...I could tell he felt the same thing.  Unfortunately nothing came of it...except a letter from him telling me that I MADE him FEEL gay.  He said a bunch of other things and I cried for most of the evening.  I did tell him two days later that I could NOT make him feel gay.  We remained friends but not much took place.  I digress.  The film had to move "quicker" in terms of the development of the relationship than what I think it did in the story.  IMO.

[Mars]

Yes, drbill,your arguments seem to me convincing.
External condition was really extraordinary....and
their loneliness too.

[coguaro]

At the point in which Ennis and Jack friendship arrives before the first tent scene the only element which lacked was intimacy, physical intimacy. They have shared everything, they have everything in common... just the Jack courage and initiative and, of course, the magic Brokeback mountain ambience,  will catalyze the situation giving help also to the "blocked" Ennis.
I think to how many real situations maybe couldn't develops because of a absence of Jack...

[jedibarrister]

What was missing from the movie was the leap from hetero- to homosexual for the boys.  The book sets up the emotional connection much better than the movie.  But for the physical, if these guys have never had a "queer" sexual experience before (or any...what did Ennis mean by not having had an opportunity to sin?), then it was rather easy for both of them that first night...especially Jack who took the first initiative.  So if we were talking about two men who knew they were gay and were feeling each other out, then it makes sense.  If it was a man and a woman, then the quick jump makes sense.  But that they were both (apparently) surprised by the whole physicality, then it was a little disjointed. 

[tpe]

What was missing from the movie was the leap from hetero- to homosexual for the boys.  The book sets up the emotional connection much better than the movie.  But for the physical, if these guys have never had a "queer" sexual experience before (or any...what did Ennis mean by not having had an opportunity to sin?), then it was rather easy for both of them that first night...especially Jack who took the first initiative.  So if we were talking about two men who knew they were gay and were feeling each other out, then it makes sense.  If it was a man and a woman, then the quick jump makes sense.  But that they were both (apparently) surprised by the whole physicality, then it was a little disjointed. 

The disjointedness did look "natural" to me, even though I somehow surmise that Jack has had (previous?) experience along those lines.  But yes, the story does develop the emotional connnection in a way that the movie only implied, I guess.  In a way, the abruptness is both a blessing and a curse.  Cinematically, the sudden shift surprises and jolts us (the viewer) into thinking about how much was implied versus how much was really spelled out.  The resulting tension can be both refreshing and unnerving...

[lancecowboy]

What was missing from the movie was the leap from hetero- to homosexual for the boys.  The book sets up the emotional connection much better than the movie.  But for the physical, if these guys have never had a "queer" sexual experience before (or any...what did Ennis mean by not having had an opportunity to sin?), then it was rather easy for both of them that first night...especially Jack who took the first initiative.  So if we were talking about two men who knew they were gay and were feeling each other out, then it makes sense.  If it was a man and a woman, then the quick jump makes sense.  But that they were both (apparently) surprised by the whole physicality, then it was a little disjointed. 

I don't think it was disjointed because I think FNIT was set up fairly well. The evolution from friendship to sexual intimacy was discussed also here: http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=13421.0 Re: Friendship, sex, and love....what was the role of each?

It was clear both in the shortstory and in the movie that Ennis was inexperienced, but knowledgeable, considering he knew about Earl and Rich. His knowledge may be distorted, but he was aware that some men are attracted to each other. http://ennisjack.com/index.php?topic=1276.0 Here in the Surreptitious Glances thread, we see that whether Ennis was aware of it or not, he was at least a little attracted to Jack, whether for friendship or for sex, only Ennis would know.

In any case, Jake was certainly experienced, the initiator, and he knew what he was doing the whole time, from the moment they met, to the moment in FNIT when he reached over to guide Ennis' hand.

[FlwrChild]

I'm not sure how experienced I think Jack was before his relationship with Ennis. He was certainly aware of his own sexuality, as evidenced by his encounters with other men throughout the course of the story. But I like that there is no evidence one way or another as to whether he'd ever acted on those feelings. And it was spelled out pretty clearly I think that Ennis was not experienced. But as the short story said no instruction manual was needed. Most people have a grasp of the basic mechanics of these situations after all by the age of 19, whether they've made use of the knowledge or not. And I think the passion and impetuousness of 19 year old virginal boys can explain a lot in regard to their activities in FNIT.

As to the lead up to that night, I actually thought it was very believable. Abrupt as to the moment itself but well navigated leading up to it. The indication that Ennis was opening up to Jack in a way he wouldn't normally do (the 'more words spoken' line), the sense of ease and comfort they were developing, the isolation up on the mountain, and a sense of the passage of time by showing the two full moons all set the tone for me for what was to come. Plus, I thought that both actors did a phenomenol job of showing so much emotion through just the look in their eyes.

Yep, I was sold!

[myprivatejack]

I have always thought that,somehow,the s.s. explains the passage from friendship to sex in a more detached and even logical way.Maybe all it's due to the cinematographic rhythm that necessarily must reduce a history's time with its feelings and the way to develop them.In the s.s. it's clear that they were creating an intimacy in the psychological sense based in all what they shared,the way they respected each other's opinions,how they could open their hearts to the other in their most inner aspects,and so on.Being as it's BBM a work based on what is felt more than what is said or seen,full with details where body language plays a great role,I understand that this passage can be inadvertent or at least, not as clear as in the novel.
I think this is the reason why the time passes so slowly during their good times on the mountain,in comparison with how fast it passes the following years;so that we can be able to appreciate the progressive attraction of these two characters.First,and almost without realising it (and,in Ennis case,without admitting it),as men; but,little by little,as a coworkers,friends and companions,by finishing again as men with all the consequences.IMO,also because we realise how short is happiness time-BBM times-and how long is time we pass without the ones we love-the long weeks and,even,months,without meeting each other-.
As regards to Jack's previous experience,I think this first part of the movie also suggests that he has it,for the subtle but continuous task of seducing Ennis that he carries and the lead role that he takes when this seduction must have an active side; for me,it's more than the simple "explosion" of desire in two lonely young boys whose isolated  environment can perfectly lead them to that.I think Jack knew what he had to do,when and how to do it,with the "little" difference before Ennis that he had had only sex up to that moment,but then he had love,meanwhile Ennis hadn't had none of them before.JMHO.