Author Topic: The Two Trailers  (Read 18774 times)

Offline chowhound

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The Two Trailers
« on: Oct 13, 2009, 09:48 PM »
I only learned a few days ago that there are two trailers for Brokeback Mountain: one in English and the other in French. And they are far from identical. I thought that some of the members here might like the opportunity to see both:



English
Brokeback Mountain Trailer


French
"Le Secret de Brokeback Mountain" [french trailer]

Any comments?

Offline chameau

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Re: The Two Trailers
« Reply #1 on: Oct 13, 2009, 09:53 PM »
First, welcome in chowhound, may I invite you to elaborate about the differences between the two versions?  We have many French speaking members on this forum, like me, but we are still a tiny minority.  The other members might need some more input. :)
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Offline chameau

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Re: The Two Trailers
« Reply #2 on: Oct 13, 2009, 10:01 PM »
About comments I agree there are some very little differences concerning the visuals but, Oh My God, how bad a dubbed version could be.  I can't bear to watch BBM in French... it's just so wrong!  Sorry I'm a bit off topic.  {b}
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Offline tpe

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Re: The Two Trailers
« Reply #3 on: Oct 14, 2009, 06:24 AM »
I will certainly have to view thwe French trailer after work (can't view it right now) before I can begin to comment.  Cham's comment about elaboration for the benefit of non-French speaking members is also good.  :)


Offline chowhound

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Re: The Two Trailers
« Reply #4 on: Oct 15, 2009, 01:24 PM »
First, welcome in chowhound, may I invite you to elaborate about the differences between the two versions?  We have many French speaking members on this forum, like me, but we are still a tiny minority.  The other members might need some more input. :)

Actually, I'm an Anglophone with some French, so any specific comments on the translation I'll leave to those more fluently bilingual.

That said, however, there are some differences between the two trailers that I find interesting:

1. The change of the title. In English it's just "Brokeback Mountain" but in French it's "Le secret de Brokeback Mountain". For me, the French version suggests that the movie is about secrecy, about the lengths to which Jack and Ennis have to go to keep their affair, given its nature, secret and hidden from their wives and children. The focus of the English title is wider, I believer, and therefore can more easily accommodate things like Ennis's internalized homophobia or "rural homophobia' in general which Annie Proulx has said was, for her, one of her topics.

2. The deleted scenes. Both trailers incorporate deleted scenes but, perhaps significantly, the French version drops one of them. Both trailers include the deleted scenes of Ennis and Jack in the Basque's truck and the shot of the shirtless Jack on the plank bridge but the scene of the "sneering mechanics" is only found in the English version.
The inclusion of this scene in the English trailer is very surprising as if it had been included in the final cut it would have lessened the ambiguity of how Jack actually died. Including it in the trailer for the movie is puzzling.

3. The making of trailers. How did the trailer of Brokeback Mountain get made and who made it? With this in mind, I have just started a more general inquiry into how movie trailers get made. However, I am new to this board - though not to BbM - so maybe discussions of this nature are too broad for this board. Please advise.

Offline jackster

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Re: The Two Trailers
« Reply #5 on: Oct 15, 2009, 03:49 PM »
Great question chowhound! I'd love to know more about the trailers, who, how, why, etc.
 
Hey, just for confusion sake, I have three versions of English language trailers, two are virtually identical, I'll describe:
#1. Probably the most common, the "widescreen" trailer, runtime 2 min 22 sec, this is the one linked here.
#2. Virtually identical to #1, except formmated for 4:3 (television) proportions, also runs 2 min 22 sec. Like the std proportion DVD it seems to actually use the std (4:3) proportion footage as the scenes show extra top and bottom material not visible in widescreen version.
#3. A very short, but nice trailer, only 33 seconds with voiceover, has a great shot of Heath with the voice over:
"Heath Ledger's performance is the stuff of Hollywood history" which brings chills to me EVERY time I hear it.
This trailer may have been released at the time of the DVD release as it ends with a short clip "Now Available on DVD"
A still from #3 trailer:


All three English trailers and the French version use as background music the "End Title" score from The Shawshank Redemption composed by Thomas Newman (available on iTunes). A great piece that fits the majestic scenes and emotional build created in the trailers.

Another shot from #3, Short Trailer


The French trailer I have a copy of has run time of only 1 min 56 sec so some stuff is left out for sure.
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Offline chowhound

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Re: The Two Trailers
« Reply #6 on: Oct 15, 2009, 09:55 PM »
Thanks, Jackster, for the extra trailer information, and thanks especially for the information about where the background music in the trailer comes from. It was vaguely familiar so I'm  very grateful that you've been able to pin it down for me.

However, this raises another question about the trailer from BbM. From the little I've been able to find out about trailer making, I've learned that often the trailer for a movie is made before the movie is completed. Why, I've no idea. Music, apparently, can often be the final element to be added to a completed movie and so, the trailer makers, having no music available, turn to other sources. In Brokeback's case, however, I've read that the music was composed BEFORE the movie started shooting. Indeed, I've read somewhere, that Ang Lee, when shooting the movie in Alberta, would occasionally play the music for himself. So if the music was available by the time the trailer was being made, why not use it?

I'm now starting to think that the French version of the trailer was especially made for the French market. I say this because a Italian/Brokie friend of mine has told me that in Italy the trailer shown was the English version though, obviously, dubbed into Italian. So it looks as though the trailer maker/promoter of the movie thought it might need a different "twist" for a specifically French audience. It also looks as though the French trailer was made later than the English trailer. I say this because the French trailer notes at the end that the film had won the main prize at the Venice Film Festival. Could this mean that by then, the
trailer makers had seen the final cut of the movie and realized how inappropriate it would be to include The "sneering mechanics" scene in the trailer? I find this idea attractive but I'm not sure how much weight such a slender bough will bear.
« Last Edit: Sep 30, 2010, 12:15 PM by chowhound »

Offline tpe

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Re: The Two Trailers
« Reply #7 on: Oct 16, 2009, 06:59 AM »
Very interersting exchange here.  Thanks a lot, chowhound amd jackster, for the observations and the comparisons.

As to the French trailer seeking to target the French market, what changes/differences would you think specifically caters to a French sensibility?  What specifically is that "twist"?  Does the notion of "secrecy" necessarily cater to a French audience, and what specifically is it about this notion?

Not to say that I expect any clear-cut answers to any of these questions.  It just made me think about the psychology of it all...

 

Offline jackster

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Re: The Two Trailers
« Reply #8 on: Oct 16, 2009, 07:44 AM »
chowhound

It doesn't surprise me that the trailers are done before the films completed. Both are complex tasks that need to be done simultaneously, and it seems the trailer is often released early to drum up interest. I'm not at all clear as to how much the Director has to do with the trailer, he may not be involved in any significant way, it could be mostly "ad men" (and women) and marketers that develop the storyboards and style for the trailers. You mentioned the French language version, - were there also Spanish, Japanese, German, etc? It would seem logical, but maybe not.

Musically I can understand the use of Newman's score for the trailer because it is the kind of piece that can stand alone and be cut into segments of different lengths and still retain it's identity. Santaolalla's score, as beautiful as it is, was unknown before the movie release and may not have worked well being cut and edited by others, or maybe he had an agreement that prohibited it's use in such applications. Trailers are such a brief "look" at a film which are played (and viewed) in such diverse environments, maybe Ang wanted to "save" those haunting Santaolalla chords for when people were safely locked in their seats, in the dark, watching the film. Though those opening chords of Brokeback are so evocative it would seem they alone could have been used at the introduction of the trailer too.

Language variations - I remember reading chams comments years ago about the poor translation of the French version. I can barely figure out English, let alone French, huh? But I did listen to the French language version on the DVD once, which was very interesting. One thing that I noticed right away was during the FNIT scene, a remarkable difference between the sound effects used. You might think that sounds effects, being just that, would be pretty universal. Nope. What I noticed was the difference when Ennis "with the help of the clear slick and a little spit" spits in his hand. This spitting sound effect, which is quite pronounced in the English version, was almost inaudible in the French version. Huh? Seemed like an important element of the scene to leave out, but maybe there is a cultural aspect of spitting that makes it very undesirable in France. It is also interesting reading the English subtitles while watching the French language, quite a discrepancy here to, the English subtitles frequently don't match the actual English dialogue. I remember discussing this once with a friend who is "in the business" and they indicated that this subtitle/translation is a HUGE business handled by hundreds sitting around monitors doing the translations, and is rarely proofed for accuracy or train of thought.

Wish I knew where to look to find out more about the creation of these trailers, if I come up with any ideas I'll let you know.
« Last Edit: Oct 16, 2009, 10:46 AM by jackster »
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Offline jackster

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Re: The Two Trailers
« Reply #9 on: Oct 16, 2009, 07:56 AM »
woops!

I just watched the trailer again, and Santaolalla's music does appear in the middle section of it. They use "The Wings" for about 45 seconds, it's sandwiched between two segments of Newmans "End Title".
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Offline myprivatejack

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Re: The Two Trailers
« Reply #10 on: Oct 16, 2009, 10:35 AM »
I have watched and I have got both trailers and it seems to me that are practically similar,excepting the mechanics scenes,as chowhound has said.I also have The movie French version,and there's no difference-as I can recall-between the two of them.I must add that,IMO,it's magnifically dubbed according to the original,even if the sound is rather bad.And as regards to its tittle,effectively,French version seems to remark the "moral" sense of the story,the quality of secret of their relationship.But I can't add anything else... :-\\
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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Offline chowhound

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Re: The Two Trailers
« Reply #11 on: Oct 17, 2009, 03:29 PM »
chowhound

It doesn't surprise me that the trailers are done before the films completed. Both are complex tasks that need to be done simultaneously, and it seems the trailer is often released early to drum up interest. I'm not at all clear as to how much the Director has to do with the trailer, he may not be involved in any significant way, it could be mostly "ad men" (and women) and marketers that develop the storyboards and style for the trailers. You mentioned the French language version, - were there also Spanish, Japanese, German, etc? It would seem logical, but maybe not.

Musically I can understand the use of Newman's score for the trailer because it is the kind of piece that can stand alone and be cut into segments of different lengths and still retain it's identity. Santaolalla's score, as beautiful as it is, was unknown before the movie release and may not have worked well being cut and edited by others, or maybe he had an agreement that prohibited it's use in such applications. Trailers are such a brief "look" at a film which are played (and viewed) in such diverse environments, maybe Ang wanted to "save" those haunting Santaolalla chords for when people were safely locked in their seats, in the dark, watching the film. Though those opening chords of Brokeback are so evocative it would seem they alone could have been used at the introduction of the trailer too.

Language variations - I remember reading chams comments years ago about the poor translation of the French version. I can barely figure out English, let alone French, huh? But I did listen to the French language version on the DVD once, which was very interesting. One thing that I noticed right away was during the FNIT scene, a remarkable difference between the sound effects used. You might think that sounds effects, being just that, would be pretty universal. Nope. What I noticed was the difference when Ennis "with the help of the clear slick and a little spit" spits in his hand. This spitting sound effect, which is quite pronounced in the English version, was almost inaudible in the French version. Huh? Seemed like an important element of the scene to leave out, but maybe there is a cultural aspect of spitting that makes it very undesirable in France. It is also interesting reading the English subtitles while watching the French language, quite a discrepancy here to, the English subtitles frequently don't match the actual English dialogue. I remember discussing this once with a friend who is "in the business" and they indicated that this subtitle/translation is a HUGE business handled by hundreds sitting around monitors doing the translations, and is rarely proofed for accuracy or train of thought.

Wish I knew where to look to find out more about the creation of these trailers, if I come up with any ideas I'll let you know.

Hi Jackster,
   I've just found this 2005 article from The Guardian which deals with the topic of trailler making. I thought you might find it of interest. I should have some free time tomorrow to search further. If I come up with any thing of interest on this topic, I'll let you know:

The modern cinema trailer is Don Lafontaine's fault. You know Don, even if you think you don't: his is the reverberating, honey-and-gravel voice that has accompanied approximately 4,000 trailers since 1963, a troublingly large proportion of which seem to have begun with the phrase: "In a world ... " In a world beyond time, one man has nowhere to run.

Since he wrote many of his own scripts, too, the 64-year-old Lafontaine can justifiably be held responsible for some of the most exhausted cliches in the history of the movies, a fact about which he is affably defensive. "The irony of the thing is, any place but a movie theatre, that's a joke," he says. "But if you sit in a theatre and hear 'In a world', you don't hear laughter." This, Lafontaine believes, is partly because we have come to accept the cliches of the film trailer as an unavoidable form of narrative shorthand. And partly it's because they're great.

It is not, as is sometimes argued, a form of wilful perversity to say that the trailers are the best bit of a trip to the cinema. That this is true ought to be obvious: take a $100m blockbuster, remove all the bad acting and the jokes that didn't work, boil the best bits down to two-and-a-half minutes - the longest a trailer can be, under US industry regulations - and of course you'll be left with the best.

"We are often asked to make silk purses out of sow's ears," Lafontaine concedes. "But it's our job. And even the worst movie in the world is going to be somebody's favourite movie." A few weeks ago, in her smoky office in London's Soho, Mary McGrane, an editor who put together the trailers for the second Bridget Jones film, echoed Lafontaine's sentiments. "Friends see films I've done trailers for and say I only put in the best bits," she said. "Of course I only put in the best bits. If I'd put in all the *beep* bits, you wouldn't have gone to see it."

There are few more cynical forms of art, or of advertising. A trailer can make a boneheaded film look intelligent (The Stepford Wives) or a tiresome one look well-paced (Independence Day); it can make a quirky film look like any other mass-market romantic comedy ("What if you had a second chance," asks the voiceover on the trailer for Before Sunset, "with the one that got away?"). It can contain scenes that have been cut from the movie (The Incredibles), or, as a result of time constraints, simply omit many of the film's central ideas (Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind). "Trailers are full of deception," says Mike Shapiro, a veteran Hollywood trailer-maker now working on a documentary history of the form. "Because what they want you to do is to see the movie they want you to see, not the movie that it is. The only way to see the movie that it is is to go see the movie."

As the commercial success of any film is dictated, more and more, by its performance on its opening weekend, trailers have never been more important in packing in the crowds, and trailer-makers find themselves in a position of curious power and freedom. If Sainsbury's, say, were to lie to you repeatedly in its television advertising, you'd eventually figure out what was happening, and you'd stop shopping at Sainsbury's. But what are you going to do when you discover you were deceived by a trailer? There's no real risk of you withdrawing your custom from the studio that made the film in question: we simply don't tend to associate movies with their studios in this fashion. Stopping going to the cinema completely is hardly a serious option either, so the producers of trailers have little to lose. Besides, audiences find watching them too much fun. "What we've learned is that trailers are unique in advertising: they're a free sample," Shapiro says. "That's not true of virtually any other form of advertising. A commercial for aspirin isn't a free sample of aspirin. A car advertisement isn't a free test drive. But with a movie trailer, you actually get to see some of the movie you're being asked to plunk down money for."

The industry's dependence on trailers, and their popularity with cinemagoers, is all the more extraordinary when you consider how much of their content is dictated by necessity: as often as not, the film itself is nowhere near finished - or, in many cases, not even under way - and alternative footage must be cobbled together. The Christmas 2004 trailer for the Tom Cruise vehicle War of the Worlds, due out this year, showed fearful families gathering in the streets to look up at lights in the sky, looks of foreboding on their faces. ("No sign of aliens," says David Hughes, of the Picture Production Company, the leading British maker of trailers. "They were still in production.") The trailer for Alien 3 used an expensively created image of the Earth; this time, the voiceover warned, the aliens would be targeting our planet. By the time the finished film was in cinemas, the aliens, due to radical changes in the production, were doing nothing of the sort.

Then there are the restrictions imposed by the censors - specifically, and most influentially, the Motion Picture Association of America's code for what may or may not appear in a trailer shown prior to a PG-rated film. Ted Demme, the director of Blow, about a cocaine dealer, summed up the restrictions. "No excessive violence - close-up shootings, stabbings, hackings with axes, etc; no blood in general-audience trailers," he wrote in a 2001 article. "If guns are fired, no close-ups where bullets hit the body (cut to the body on the ground); no exposed breasts or genitals; no bed scenes with any action; no sexually connotative words, no blasphemous language ("hell" and "damn" alone are OK); and - here's the big one - no references to drugs or drug paraphernalia. Remember my title? Medellin, we have a problem."

But by far the oddest practices in the world of trailers concern the music that accompanies them. Film scores tend to be completed so late in the production process that most trailer editors can't use the correct music even if they want to; normally, however, they don't. Deploying the music from a successful older film to advertise a new one must be about as close to subliminal advertising as it's legally possible to get: the makers of the trailers for the recent movie Lemony Snicket's A Series of Unfortunate Events, starring Jim Carrey, knew the movie they wanted viewers to be reminded of - Tim Burton's Edward Scissorhands - and so they bought the rights to its score.

This would appear to be the way to make your millions as a composer for the cinema: Hans Zimmer, who wrote the score for the 1995 film Crimson Tide, is estimated to have made at least 50 times more from its subsequent exploitation - in trailers for Armageddon, The Devil's Own, Independence Day, Mulholland Falls and others - than from its original use.

But the current record, according to the website Soundtrack.net, is held by the composer Randy Edelman. You may not have seen Come See the Paradise, Alan Parker's 1991 film about the wartime romance of an Irish-American man and a Japanese-American woman. But the score proved so useful for trailer-makers that it has been used in the advertising for no fewer than 24 films, including Clear and Present Danger, Cry, The Beloved Country, Devil in a Blue Dress, Donnie Brasco, A Few Good Men, The Joy Luck Club, Patriot Games, Philadelphia, The Sum of All Fears, Swing Kids and Thirteen Days. Edelman, a former pop songwriter, is now a wealthy man.

Trailers didn't used to matter this much. Mike Shapiro's research has uncovered what was probably the earliest example of the form - a text-only trailer for a silent serial called What Happened to Mary, which would have been shown after ("trailing", in other words) the main feature. But for decades after the birth of commercial cinema, trailers were disdained: during the second world war, silver from the prints was even stripped and used for the military effort. The original 1942 cinema trailer for Casablanca may be fun to watch, because it reminds us of the film, but by any other standard, it's awful: a screaming succession of disjointed frames and hyperventilating promises that feels more like an advertisment for a cheap mortgage. "If you are looking for adventure ... you will find it ... in Casablanca!" it runs. "City of hope and despair, located in French Morocco in North Africa, the meeting-place of adventurers! Fugitives! Criminals! Refugees! ... Humphrey Bogart - the most dangerous man in the world's most dangerous city! ... Ingrid Bergman - fighting the strange fascination that draws her closer and closer to him!"

The 1940s did see some improvements. "You could say that Orson Welles's trailer for Citizen Kane marked perhaps the first time that you see somebody really creatively trying to make a trailer a film in itself, something unique and artful," Shapiro says. "But only marginally so."

Compared to any of these, the well-known trailer for the 1996 film Independence Day is a thing of beauty. Compacting the standard-issue plot into a timeframe of less than three minutes forces a special discipline; the voiceover, delivered in the second person, feels intensely personal. "It is morning. You wake up ... " it runs, as we see Will Smith wake up. "You greet your loved ones. You grab the morning paper." It's quiet - too quiet. "And although it seems like any ordinary day, it isn't."

If it were a trailer for a comedy, this would be the point to introduce the "rug pull", the point at which the tone suddenly changes from mock-serious to unashamedly goofy; it is often accompanied on the soundtrack by the sound of a stylus being hurriedly removed from a record turntable. "There is a whole generation, raised on cassettes and CDs, for whom that sound has absolutely no meaning," Don Lafontaine points out. "And yet they continue to use it."

But back to Independence Day: within seconds, the Empire State building has been zapped and is collapsing in flames - one of the film's most impressive scenes. The military response gets under way. Men in suits shout at each other. "You're looking at worldwide destruction in the next 36 hours!" someone yells. But the fight soon turns in the good guys' direction. "We're going to survive! We're going to survive!" someone else yells. And before you know it, Smith and Vivica Fox are kissing, silhouetted against the embers of a not-fully-destroyed planet, leaving just a couple of seconds for Smith to end with a self-referential sci-fi movie wisecrack: "Now that's what I call a close encounter!"

You finish watching with the feeling that you don't really need to see the film at all. If you were to act on that feeling, of course, that would make the trailer a commercial failure. But spoiler trailers do have their market. "My mum, who goes to the cinema very irregularly, is the absolute target market for a film like Evelyn [starring Pierce Brosnan]," says David Hughes at the Picture Production Company. "It's about a man fighting to get custody of his children. Now, my personal philosophy is that you never give away the ending - unless you're targeting a market that needs to be told there's a happy ending. Because if you don't have a shot of Pierce Brosnan on the steps of the courthouse, throwing his legal papers up in the air and being reunited with his children, that market will not go and see that movie. They'd be worried that it might be depressing."

Indeed, there's an argument - made by David Lynch, among others - that seeing any trailer automatically ruins the experience of the film to which it relates, because once you've seen the highlights, you'll be subsconsciously checking off the scenes that were featured in it as you watch the full-length movie. That's an extreme position, perhaps - but many directors are notorious for being disparaging of the effort to boil their masterworks down to two-and-a-half marketable minutes. Hughes's company has made trailers for five of Mike Leigh's films, for example; the highest praise he can recall is: "Well, if that's the trailer for my movie, I'm not going to jump off Waterloo bridge." And why should they be any more glowing? "You wouldn't say to Leonardo da Vinci, yeah, great painting, but we're just going to take this one part - the smile's the main bit, so we're just going to take the smile and put it on the tube ads," Hughes points out. (Of course, the level of offence depends on the quality of the original. The Mona Lisa's smile is nothing without the context, whereas Mona Lisa Smile, on the other hand, is a hell of a lot better in trailer form.)

All in all, trailers might seem a difficult thing to love. They lie and deceive, and when they're not lying or deceiving, they're being too honest, revealing the plot. They're nakedly focused on selling a product, intent on convincing us every movie is the greatest ever made when most cannot possibly be. And yet they remain irresistible. As Don Lafontaine might put it, in a world of short attention spans - in a time when the entire movie industry is hopelessly commercially compromised anyway - only one part of a trip to the cinema remains a guaranteed pleasure. And if a particular trailer fails to deliver? No problem: it'll be finished soon anyway. Very soon. Even the trailers for Dances With Wolves and Alexander were over within two-and-a-half minutes.

Offline trekfan

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Re: The Two Trailers
« Reply #12 on: Oct 17, 2009, 06:00 PM »
wow I didn't know about the french version.  I have to send this to a friend of mine who is French.

Aren't we at the stage these days when it just doesn't ... matter? It's a story of love and it's a story between two people. If people can't get over that and just accept it as a story, then that's their problem. I'm big enough and brave enough to do it. - Heath Ledger on doing BBM

Offline chowhound

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Re: The Two Trailers
« Reply #13 on: Oct 18, 2009, 11:59 AM »
wow I didn't know about the french version.  I have to send this to a friend of mine who is French.



I look forward, trekfan, to hearing what your French friend has to say.

Offline chowhound

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Re: The Two Trailers
« Reply #14 on: Oct 18, 2009, 05:08 PM »
Very interersting exchange here.  Thanks a lot, chowhound amd jackster, for the observations and the comparisons.

As to the French trailer seeking to target the French market, what changes/differences would you think specifically caters to a French sensibility?  What specifically is that "twist"?  Does the notion of "secrecy" necessarily cater to a French audience, and what specifically is it about this notion?

Not to say that I expect any clear-cut answers to any of these questions.  It just made me think about the psychology of it all...

 

Hi tpe,
  Honestly, I don't know why the decision was made to create a different trailer for the French market rather than just dubbing the English version into French but clearly they did. And there are significant differences between the two primarily in terms of what I'll call "scriptural incursions". By that I mean those statements or messages which are written on the screen and which we read as the trailer proceeds. It is the greater abundance of these in the English version that suggests, to me at least, that the film in English is thematically more diverse and complex compared to its French counterpart.
  The two trailers start in a very similar manner and the first scriptural incursion is the same in both: "IT WAS A FRIENDSHIP...THAT BECAME A SECRET". But that's a far as the French version is prepared to go. The main theme, then, of the  movie will be secresy, something underlined at the end of the trailer when we learn that the title of the movie indeed is "Le Secret de Brokeback Mountain.
   However, the English version continues with these incursions. Immediately following a shot of Jack driving away from Brokeback, comes the incursion:

                                                                THERE ARE
                                                     PLACES WE CAN'T RETURN

And, indeed, this one of the movie's themes - that Jack and Ennis, both literally and metaphorically, never succeed in getting back to Brokeback.

After that, inserted between a shot of Ennis entering Monroe's store carrying his two children and the scene where Ennis dismisses Jack as simply a "fishing buddy" which is immediately followed by the reunion kiss, we read:

                                                                THERE ARE
                                                     LIES WE HAVE TO TELL

So we have the theme of truth and lies suggested.

Then, inserted between the reunion kiss and a shot the dozy embrace and Jack saying (voice over) "You know it could be like this, just like this, always", we find this:

                                                                THERE ARE
                                                    TRUTHS WE CAN'T DENY

So the "lies" of the earlier incursion and are now balanced against these "truths" but what truths are these?

Finally it's only in the English version that we get a shot of Ennis saying "If this thing grabs hold of us in the wrong place, we're dead" which is immediately followed by the shot of the sneering mechanics. From Ennis's point of view, the world he and Jack inhabit can be a profoundly homophobic world which could, as Ennis knows all to well, lash out at them with lethal consequences. That world is completely absent in the French trailer.

One last comment. In the French version, we are made aware very early on that what we are about to see is not just a film but an ANG LEE film. This probably reflects the greater respect and admiration the French have for the "auteur" compared to most North Americans.
                                                     
 

Offline tpe

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Re: The Two Trailers
« Reply #15 on: Oct 19, 2009, 07:23 AM »
Hi tpe,
  Honestly, I don't know why the decision was made to create a different trailer for the French market rather than just dubbing the English version into French but clearly they did. And there are significant differences between the two primarily in terms of what I'll call "scriptural incursions". By that I mean those statements or messages which are written on the screen and which we read as the trailer proceeds. It is the greater abundance of these in the English version that suggests, to me at least, that the film in English is thematically more diverse and complex compared to its French counterpart.
  The two trailers start in a very similar manner and the first scriptural incursion is the same in both: "IT WAS A FRIENDSHIP...THAT BECAME A SECRET". But that's a far as the French version is prepared to go. The main theme, then, of the  movie will be secresy, something underlined at the end of the trailer when we learn that the title of the movie indeed is "Le Secret de Brokeback Mountain.
   However, the English version continues with these incursions. Immediately following a shot of Jack driving away from Brokeback, comes the incursion:

                                                                THERE ARE
                                                     PLACES WE CAN'T RETURN

And, indeed, this one of the movie's themes - that Jack and Ennis, both literally and metaphorically, never succeed in getting back to Brokeback.

After that, inserted between a shot of Ennis entering Monroe's store carrying his two children and the scene where Ennis dismisses Jack as simply a "fishing buddy" which is immediately followed by the reunion kiss, we read:

                                                                THERE ARE
                                                     LIES WE HAVE TO TELL

So we have the theme of truth and lies suggested.

Then, inserted between the reunion kiss and a shot the dozy embrace and Jack saying (voice over) "You know it could be like this, just like this, always", we find this:

                                                                THERE ARE
                                                    TRUTHS WE CAN'T DENY

So the "lies" of the earlier incursion and are now balanced against these "truths" but what truths are these?

Finally it's only in the English version that we get a shot of Ennis saying "If this thing grabs hold of us in the wrong place, we're dead" which is immediately followed by the shot of the sneering mechanics. From Ennis's point of view, the world he and Jack inhabit can be a profoundly homophobic world which could, as Ennis knows all to well, lash out at them with lethal consequences. That world is completely absent in the French trailer.

One last comment. In the French version, we are made aware very early on that what we are about to see is not just a film but an ANG LEE film. This probably reflects the greater respect and admiration the French have for the "auteur" compared to most North Americans.
                                                     
 

Interesting...

It would also seem to me that the French version was more cryptic/tantalizing.  Do you think this is the case?  It certainly reinforces the atmosphere of secrecy and perhaps even mystery surrounding the relationship.  And yest, I wonder whether this was deliberately done for the French version, or did they just get lazy.  Somehow, I feel that it was quite deliberate.


Offline chowhound

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Re: The Two Trailers
« Reply #16 on: Oct 19, 2009, 03:17 PM »
A friend sent me this article from Wikepedia which I found quite informative:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_trailer   Did I send you this link before?
You may want to start with "awards for trailers" - I got to the next two
websites by doing that - there are a lot of links on this page and some of
the info may be useful - one of them talks a bit about branding the trailer
- you can ignore the following two if you just keep returning to the
wikipedia page and following different links out from there

Offline tpe

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Re: The Two Trailers
« Reply #17 on: Oct 20, 2009, 07:16 AM »
Thanks chowhound!  I shall certainly look into this in greater detail after work!  :)

There are so many things about the making a movie that we, the regular audience, really don't know.  All the more tantalizing when we get "inside" glimpses into the motivations behind certain choices/decisions....

Offline chowhound

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Re: The Two Trailers
« Reply #18 on: Oct 20, 2009, 09:29 PM »
Interesting...

It would also seem to me that the French version was more cryptic/tantalizing.  Do you think this is the case?  It certainly reinforces the atmosphere of secrecy and perhaps even mystery surrounding the relationship.  And yest, I wonder whether this was deliberately done for the French version, or did they just get lazy.  Somehow, I feel that it was quite deliberate.



Hi tpe,
   I think you're right. It seems to me that the French version does reinforce  "the atmosphere of secrecy and perhaps even mystery surrounding the relationship" as you so aptly put it. And I'm pretty sure that that was deliberate.
   Odd about the choices of music, though. Clearly they had access to Santaolalla's music as they make use of it briefly but for much of the music they turn elsewhere. Maybe they felt that the trailer needed something bigger, more surging than the spare beauty of some of Santaolalla's chords.

Offline tpe

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Re: The Two Trailers
« Reply #19 on: Oct 21, 2009, 07:07 AM »
Hi tpe,
   I think you're right. It seems to me that the French version does reinforce  "the atmosphere of secrecy and perhaps even mystery surrounding the relationship" as you so aptly put it. And I'm pretty sure that that was deliberate.
   Odd about the choices of music, though. Clearly they had access to Santaolalla's music as they make use of it briefly but for much of the music they turn elsewhere. Maybe they felt that the trailer needed something bigger, more surging than the spare beauty of some of Santaolalla's chords.

Yes, it is strange, about the music, given how beautiful Santaolalla's music truly is.  Perhaps they wanted to give a different impression about the film itself, as the Santaolalla music gives it away as more lyrical than anything else...

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: The Two Trailers
« Reply #20 on: Oct 31, 2009, 01:41 AM »
Wow! I just stumbled upon this thread. Welcome CH and thanks for starting this very interesting discussion.

I can't believe the power of the trailers even after all these years. Strangely enough, I watched the French version first, and it seemed more romantic and less traumatic to me. Then I watched the English version, and by happenstance, muted the sound. I didn't realize it until it was almost over. I didn't react to it as strong as I had expected, so I turned on the sound, and wham! It triggers PBS right the way. Perhaps it is hearing Heath's voice...listening to the music.  :_(

It appears to me that the French version is more romantic, with scenes of their friendship on the mountain, and less concerned with the sexual energy. Also, the two missing captions...appears to not state the obvious, as they do in the English version. The friendship remained secret, so there were lies; the love was so strong, of course it cannot be denied.

Yet, strangely, the English version affects me more.  :( Perhaps it has in it more of the inherent conflict, whereas the French version has in it, more of the secret pleasures of their friendship.

Welcome to the forum. I look forward to seeing more of your ideas.

Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline rdx

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Re: The Two Trailers
« Reply #21 on: Jun 12, 2010, 03:42 PM »
This is not directly trailer related, but there's no need for a new topic.. :s)

The German double DVD has some international TV spots (originally from US, I think). One of them is titled "Millions" and this spot clearly shows señor Basque driving the truck to the jump-off. I think that the trailers and other TV spots don't show Basque's face: they are framed showing only Ennis and Jack.

No, I'm not drooling over the deleted scenes..anymore. :i

The "Millions" refer to the amount of moviegoers and the spot declares the Oscar nominations but not the winners.


« Last Edit: Aug 23, 2010, 05:27 AM by rdx »
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Offline chowhound

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Re: The Two Trailers
« Reply #22 on: Jun 13, 2010, 02:02 PM »
This is not directly trailer related, but there's no need for a new topic.. :s)

The German double DVD has some international TV spots (originally from US, I think). One of them is titled "Millions" and this spot clearly shows señor Basque driving the truck to the jump point. I think that the trailers and other TV spots don't show Basque's face: they are framed showing only Ennis and Jack.

No, I'm not drooling over the deleted scenes..anymore. :i

The "Millions" refer to the amount of moviegoers and the spot declares the Oscar nominations but not the winners.




You're right, rdx - the shot I'm familiar with from this deleted scene has just Jack and Ennis in the frame though a small part of the Basque's shoulder is visible in the far right of the shot.

This might have come from slightly earlier in that scene as on this shot both Ennis and Jack are asleep but in the other one Ennis is awake but Jack is not.

This is the only shot from that scene on this DVD - right? Do you find it, as I do, a slightly odd shot to choose to promote Heath Ledger as "Best Actor"? After all, he's fast asleep. (As, I might add, the Basque seems to be as well!). 

Offline rdx

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Re: The Two Trailers
« Reply #23 on: Jun 14, 2010, 10:48 AM »
You're right, rdx - the shot I'm familiar with from this deleted scene has just Jack and Ennis in the frame though a small part of the Basque's shoulder is visible in the far right of the shot.

This might have come from slightly earlier in that scene as on this shot both Ennis and Jack are asleep but in the other one Ennis is awake but Jack is not.

This is the only shot from that scene on this DVD - right? Do you find it, as I do, a slightly odd shot to choose to promote Heath Ledger as "Best Actor"? After all, he's fast asleep. (As, I might add, the Basque seems to be as well!).  

Thanx chowhound. They're all asleep.. :f) Yep, this is the only scene. As far as my eyes can tell, the length of this 'scene' on the TV spot is the same as on the trailer: the framing is just different.

Well, the "Best Actor Heath Ledger" transliterates what the narrator is saying on the TV spot. The previous 'scene' with the text "Best Actor Heath Ledger" is Ennis arriving to Monroe's supermarket holding the girls.

"Best Actor Heath Ledger" is preceded by "8 Academy Award Nominations" (Jack shirtless on the log bridge) and followed by "Best Supporting Actor Jake Gyllenhaal" (Jack's DE look while Ennis is riding away + Jack in the truck wiping away his tears). The sequence of the 'scenes' in the TV spot is somewhat different from the trailer.

Well, here's the submenu from the German DVD:


As you can see, the spots originate from the USA (except the first one). But the only spot to show señor Basque is the "Millions" spot.

Here's the 'original' picture from the trailer:



Btw, the German trailer is the same as the US/International trailer; it's just dubbed in German and the incursions are translated, quite literally as far as I can tell.
« Last Edit: Jul 05, 2010, 01:22 AM by rdx »
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Offline jackster

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Re: The Two Trailers
« Reply #24 on: Jun 14, 2010, 03:29 PM »
Thanx chowhound. They're all asleep..
A small aside here to maybe illuminate the "asleep" appearances . . .

In one of the pre-production versions of the screenplay it tells of Jack and Ennis drinking through the whole day (and evening) after the meeting at Aguirres office. We pick up the action here just after Ennis relates the story of his folks driving off the only curve in fortythree miles . . . (numbers here are scene numbers)

JACK:
Shit. That's hard.
(yells to waitress)
Two shots of whiskey, right quick
11 INT: SIGNAL, WYOMING: PICKUP TRUCK: NIGHT: 1963:
JACK sleeps in his old pickup, slumped against the door.
ENNIS, in the passenger seat, wide awake, smokes, gazes
through the steamed windows into the darkness.
12 INT: SIGNAL, WYCWING: PICKUP TRUCK: MORNING: 1963:
We see them pull out of Signal in an Agency pickup driven
by a short, silent BASQUE. ENNIS looks hangover, holds
his head. JACK, though, is sharp and alert.
They pass the gas station. ENNIS glimpses the same sour
old man, sitting on the tractor tire.


So Ennis didn't get much sleep, apparently wondering whut he got himself into. Also, he probably wasn't used to much alcohol, certainly not up to Jack's speed anyway.

Don't know how much a' this actually got shot. Obviously the scene in the pickup with Basque driving did get filmed, don't know about the nighttime view of Ennis gazing through the steamy truck windows.

Thought you'd like ta' know.
we get to drinkin' and talkin' an all

Offline rdx

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Re: The Two Trailers
« Reply #25 on: Jun 16, 2010, 07:23 AM »
Thought you'd like ta' know.

You bet! Thank you, Mr Jackster!

There was some discussion going on while they were driving to the jump-off:
http://www.findingbrokeback.com/Deleted_Scenes/TruckScene.html.

Jack, always showing his character.. :*(
"I'm spurrin' his guts out! Wavin' to the girls in the stands! He's kickin' me to high heaven, but he don't jackboard me! No!" Jack

Offline chowhound

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Re: The Two Trailers
« Reply #26 on: Jun 16, 2010, 12:15 PM »

Btw, the German trailer is the same as the US/International trailer; it's just dubbed in German and the incursions are translated, quite literally as far as I can tell.

Thanks for this information, rdx. The same was true of the trailer shown in Italy - in other words it was simply a dubbed version of the English trailer. Anyone see the trailer in Spain? It's starting to look as though the French trailer must have been made with only the French market in mind. The reason for incurring that extra expense, however, eludes me. I wonder which version was shown in Quebec?

Offline rdx

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Re: The Two Trailers
« Reply #27 on: Jun 16, 2010, 03:03 PM »

Thanks for this information, rdx. The same was true of the trailer shown in Italy - in other words it was simply a dubbed version of the English trailer. Anyone see the trailer in Spain? It's starting to look as though the French trailer must have been made with only the French market in mind. The reason for incurring that extra expense, however, eludes me. I wonder which version was shown in Quebec?

You're welcome.

The Spanish trailer is the same as the US/International trailer with the Spanish dubbing and with the Spanish incursions. The incursions are translated literally as far as (I and) Google Translate tells.. :s) "Brokeback Mountain - En Terreno Vedado" -- "Brokeback Mountain -  In Forbidden Land" (?)
A screencap (the picture quality on this trailer is a bit poor):


The Japanese DVD has two trailers:

1) the US/International trailer with the original sound and the original incursions with optional Japanese subtitles (for both the spoken lines and the incursions),
2) an abridged version (some 30 sec cut here and there) of the US/International trailer with the original sound and the incursions in Japanese + 'forced' Japanese subtitles for the spoken lines (even for the names of the actors..) + some narrative dubbing in Japanese:

and



Btw, two of the German incursions aren't that literal after all: "There are moments we can't get back" (There are places we can't return) and "There are lies that are inevitable" (There are lies we have to tell):





Well, the French, nos amis, they need to have things their own way.. :*(

In Quebec, our Canadians, please, let us know.

 
« Last Edit: Jun 16, 2010, 03:20 PM by rdx »
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Offline chowhound

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Re: The Two Trailers
« Reply #28 on: Jun 17, 2010, 01:26 PM »
You're welcome.

The Spanish trailer is the same as the US/International trailer with the Spanish dubbing and with the Spanish incursions. The incursions are translated literally as far as (I and) Google Translate tells.. :s) "Brokeback Mountain - En Terreno Vedado" -- "Brokeback Mountain -  In Forbidden Land" (?)
A screencap (the picture quality on this trailer is a bit poor):


The Japanese DVD has two trailers:

1) the US/International trailer with the original sound and the original incursions with optional Japanese subtitles (for both the spoken lines and the incursions),
2) an abridged version (some 30 sec cut here and there) of the US/International trailer with the original sound and the incursions in Japanese + 'forced' Japanese subtitles for the spoken lines (even for the names of the actors..) + some narrative dubbing in Japanese:

and



Btw, two of the German incursions aren't that literal after all: "There are moments we can't get back" (There are places we can't return) and "There are lies that are inevitable" (There are lies we have to tell):





Well, the French, nos amis, they need to have things their own way.. :*(

In Quebec, our Canadians, please, let us know.

 

Thanks, rdx, for these interesting extra pieces of information.

I hadn't realized that you can get translations done by Google. I must look into it. Could be a very useful tool.

Offline rdx

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Re: The Two Trailers
« Reply #29 on: Sep 30, 2010, 11:13 AM »
There's also a trailer with French 'visuals' but English audio (& French subtitles and incursions), 1:55:

.

A high quality version of the French-French trailer is to be found

.

If the links don't work on your computer, go to fnac dot com.
"I'm spurrin' his guts out! Wavin' to the girls in the stands! He's kickin' me to high heaven, but he don't jackboard me! No!" Jack