Topic: "Ol' Brokeback got us good."

[mimi1996]

So true.  They could only be themselves in the both the isolation and freedom of the Mountain.  Doesn't this sound contradictory?  BBM was both liberator and prison for both of them...  In its confines, they could be themselves, but they could never be themselves outside of it.

Veryy true. What a cruel, ironic, yet somewhat beautiful little contradiction.

[vedrana]

So true.  They could only be themselves in the both the isolation and freedom of the Mountain.  Doesn't this sound contradictory?  BBM was both liberator and prison for both of them...  In its confines, they could be themselves, but they could never be themselves outside of it.

It is interesting though, that they went to some many mountains during their "fishing trips", but never returned to Brokeback...  Of course, I understand the symbolism of that - they never had in their lives again what they'd had in Brokeback, yet, I wonder if any of them ever asked - How about we go to Brokeback this time? Or - do you think we could see how it looks now?... Anything... I guess they both avoided it, like they were avoiding many truths about their relationship and all...It was probably too emotional for both.

[myprivatejack]

It is interesting though, that they went to some many mountains during their "fishing trips", but never returned to Brokeback...  Of course, I understand the symbolism of that - they never had in their lives again what they'd had in Brokeback, yet, I wonder if any of them ever asked - How about we go to Brokeback this time? Or - do you think we could see how it looks now?... Anything... I guess they both avoided it, like they were avoiding many truths about their relationship and all...It was probably too emotional for both.

I think you have hit in the nail;even the curiosity couldn't make them return to BBM during all these years(at least,as AP created the s.s.).Having the material and economic-let's say-possibility of doing it,there was something inside them that avoided it,something in a more personal and moral level.Even Ennis,who spent his life denying,knew that going there could mean finding themselves face to face with the truth of their relationship,their past and their possible future in common.There were too many questions to ask and too many answers to give that remained there on the mountain,because outside of it none of them were able to face them completely.Moreover,they say that "it's better never coming back to the place where one has been happy"...

[tpe]

Good point!

As both of you have hinted, not going back to BBM is in itself a symbol -- something like a loss of innocence -- or an expulsion from Eden.  It's an irreversible process -- even if they did go back, they understood that things wouldn't be the same.  And so it became a kind of ideal, for both of them -- something to dream about and aspire to, but never going back to it.

[myprivatejack]

Good point!

As both of you have hinted, not going back to BBM is in itself a symbol -- something like a loss of innocence -- or an expulsion from Eden.  It's an irreversible process -- even if they did go back, they understood that things wouldn't be the same.  And so it became a kind of ideal, for both of them -- something to dream about and aspire to, but never going back to it.

Exactly ¡ Not going back to BBM meant their past and their present-maybe their future too?-and the irreversible difference between both times.You have said it very well;the expulsion from Eden.Because they had already tasted the bitterness of the real life,this couldn't be ever so sweet as the months spent there...

[mimi]

great points all of you! :D

I kind of like to think of it as a beautiful tragedy - it's like diana ossana said

"They never return to Brokeback - it's their idol, and they dont want to spoil it"

I think that they dont want their memories of the one place they were truly happy and free to be marred by the urgency and infrequency, as well as the ever-looming end, of their all too short moments together.

[vedrana]

great points all of you! :D

I kind of like to think of it as a beautiful tragedy - it's like diana ossana said

"They never return to Brokeback - it's their idol, and they dont want to spoil it"

I think that they dont want their memories of the one place they were truly happy and free to be marred by the urgency and infrequency, as well as the ever-looming end, of their all too short moments together.

I never heard of this... VERY interesting and so true - it really was their idol and they didn't want to spoil it...

Oh...

[mimi]

I never heard of this... VERY interesting and so true - it really was their idol and they didn't want to spoil it...

Oh...

yeah, I think Diana Ossana really expressed it best then...it is sad, but I think its very true...if they go back to the one place where they knew true pure freedom and happiness, sanctuary even, then it would just be tainted by the fact that they could not stay that way and would have to leave...
its the urgency of their brief meetings that keeps them from going back, and its just heartbreaking 

[BBBOY]

yeah, I think Diana Ossana really expressed it best then...it is sad, but I think its very true...if they go back to the one place where they knew true pure freedom and happiness, sanctuary even, then it would just be tainted by the fact that they could not stay that way and would have to leave...
its the urgency of their brief meetings that keeps them from going back, and its just heartbreaking 

The passage of time can alter so much. Jack and Ennis were young men when they came together on Brokeback. The purity that they had could only be tempered by the time. Four years later, they knew what they wanted but could not go back. Jack was ready but Ennis was not, that is the struggle that went on for so long until Jack died and Ennis came to understand. I will never get over this.

[vedrana]

The passage of time can alter so much. Jack and Ennis were young men when they came together on Brokeback. The purity that they had could only be tempered by the time. Four years later, they knew what they wanted but could not go back. Jack was ready but Ennis was not, that is the struggle that went on for so long until Jack died and Ennis came to understand. I will never get over this.

Yeah... I guess none of us here will... 

It just can't be worse for them. One left forever and the other one came to his senses... way too late.

yeah, I think Diana Ossana really expressed it best then...it is sad, but I think its very true...if they go back to the one place where they knew true pure freedom and happiness, sanctuary even, then it would just be tainted by the fact that they could not stay that way and would have to leave...
its the urgency of their brief meetings that keeps them from going back, and its just heartbreaking  

Heartbreaking is the right word.  

[myprivatejack]

I have sometimes repeated this phrase that warns us not to come back where we have been happy once... And in Ennis and Jack's case,BBM was more than this;it was like a symbol.The symbol of their freedom to live a doomed love that never will be lived in the same way,because society denied it and denied them.To come back to this place would have meant to be free again,without any fastening nor fears...and that couldn't be.

[aintfoolin]

I have sometimes repeated this phrase that warns us not to come back where we have been happy once... And in Ennis and Jack's case,BBM was more than this;it was like a symbol.The symbol of their freedom to live a doomed love that never will be lived in the same way,because society denied it and denied them.To come back to this place would have meant to be free again,without any fastening nor fears...and that couldn't be.

And yet...I wonder what it would have been like for Ennis if he could've retreived Jack's ashes from OMT. For Ennis to make that lonely  trek up into BBM one last time to spread Jack's ashes there like he wanted. How emotional that would be for Ennis. Could Ennis really do it?, and could he finally find some type of closure by performing it??...I wonder.

[vedrana]

And yet...I wonder what it would have been like for Ennis if he could've retreived Jack's ashes from OMT. For Ennis to make that lonely  trek up into BBM one last time to spread Jack's ashes there like he wanted. How emotional that would be for Ennis. Could Ennis really do it?, and could he finally find some type of closure by performing it??...I wonder.

This is a very interesting question. I remember a fic written by our Laura-"Homecoming". It deals with that theme in a very beautiful way. The way we'd all wanted it to be - Jack's spirit talked to Ennis with a certain symbols.

But what with the cruel reality... a lonely Ennis on a lonely place that used to be his everything... his life, his real home... and now everything gone. Only him and a half of Jack's remains... (God, even writing about it breaks my heart... ) and then leaving Jack there on the mountains. Leaving him home and then going back to his own lonely life...

Would Ennis die there from the pain and sorrow? I don't know. He was a tough guy, not a breakable material. But on Brokeback he was something else, someone else. Would it break him? Would it show him in the most exposed form of pain what he'd missed by losing Jack? Would the mountain had the impact on him that could multiply the impact of Jack's departure and then break him?

I don't know... But only the idea of seeing him up there on Brokeback, old, alone, saying goodbye to everything and the only one he loved is absolutely heartbreaking.

[tpe]

...

Would Ennis die there from the pain and sorrow? I don't know. He was a tough guy, not a breakable material. But on Brokeback he was something else, someone else. Would it break him? Would it show him in the most exposed form of pain what he'd missed by losing Jack? Would the mountain had the impact on him that could multiply the impact of Jack's departure and then break him?

I don't know... But only the idea of seeing him up there on Brokeback, old, alone, saying goodbye to everything and the only one he loved is absolutely heartbreaking.

I thought about this too.  Was Ennis ever is so great a despair that he would have rather not continue living?  I have always thought what made Ennis go on after Jacks' death.  The daughters, maybe.  Or perhaps the memory of Jack.  Had he been able to bring the ashes back to BBM, he probably would have gotten a bit of solace and closure, but I think his knowing that BBM was the one place dearest to Jack was surely enough.

[myprivatejack]

I thought about this too.  Was Ennis ever is so great a despair that he would have rather not continue living?  I have always thought what made Ennis go on after Jacks' death.  The daughters, maybe.  Or perhaps the memory of Jack.  Had he been able to bring the ashes back to BBM, he probably would have gotten a bit of solace and closure, but I think his knowing that BBM was the one place dearest to Jack was surely enough.

I have thought about this too,but I haven't arrived to any plausible conclusion.Doubtless,to be in the only place where he felt happy and felt himself ,but without the person who made it possible,it'd have been a heavy burden for him;heavy enough as not wanting to keep on living a miserable life from that moment onwards,why not?.But on the other hand,his daughter's presence,yes,but also the certainty that he had done what he must do,taking Jack to their first and last home;and,more specially,the certainty that his lover would be waiting for him there,could have given him enough strength to carry on.Sweet memories of the past,sweet hopes for the future...

[jake]

I have thought about this too,but I haven't arrived to any plausible conclusion.Doubtless,to be in the only place where he felt happy and felt himself ,but without the person who made it possible,it'd have been a heavy burden for him;heavy enough as not wanting to keep on living a miserable life from that moment onwards,why not?.But on the other hand,his daughter's presence,yes,but also the certainty that he had done what he must do,taking Jack to their first and last home;and,more specially,the certainty that his lover would be waiting for him there,could have given him enough strength to carry on.Sweet memories of the past,sweet hopes for the future...

Damn, I get emotional so easily nowadays. I'm such a mush inside it's scary. But it's between us

I think Ennis would get the strength to live from his daughters but in the end, I think, it would be a really miserable existence.
Maybe many of you don't agree but memories are what they are, just memories. Their power might not be enough after a longer period of time. Yes, he would have Junior, maybe Jenny - but they would get married one day and leave.
Going to work, getting home ALONE, sleeping ALONE, left with dreams, guilt, always wondering what could have been..


I don't think I'd want to live

About the certainty that his lover would be waiting for him - for me there's no certainty - just the opposite - maybe he will never see Jack again? Never talk to him, never share his moments with him, never see his face.
Knowing all this, knowing what he lost and maybe, will never experience again - Jack, I swear [if I could move back in time I would?]


The question is
Would Ennis be able to forgive himself? For leaving Jack alone?
Losing the chance of the sweet life many people dream of and never have?
Every day, waking up alone, searching the bed for Jack's hand and realizing Jack's not alive anymore?


Just thinking about it makes me suicidal, sorry

[vedrana]

Damn, I get emotional so easily nowadays. I'm such a mush inside it's scary. But it's between us

I think Ennis would get the strength to live from his daughters but in the end, I think, it would be a really miserable existence.
Maybe many of you don't agree but memories are what they are, just memories. Their power might not be enough after a longer period of time. Yes, he would have Junior, maybe Jenny - but they would get married one day and leave.
Going to work, getting home ALONE, sleeping ALONE, left with dreams, guilt, always wondering what could have been..


I don't think I'd want to live

About the certainty that his lover would be waiting for him - for me there's no certainty - just the opposite - maybe he will never see Jack again? Never talk to him, never share his moments with him, never see his face.
Knowing all this, knowing what he lost and maybe, will never experience again - Jack, I swear [if I could move back in time I would?]


The question is
Would Ennis be able to forgive himself? For leaving Jack alone?
Losing the chance of the sweet life many people dream of and never have?
Every day, waking up alone, searching the bed for Jack's hand and realizing Jack's not alive anymore?


Just thinking about it makes me suicidal, sorry

Yes... suicidal! I understand you well.

I agree with you - memories do fade away. Maybe the guilt too... 

Also, in time people change. Would Brokeback mountain influence those changes in positive or in negative way for Ennis's future, it is hard to know. We only know that bringing Jack's ashes to BBM would be truly overwhelming for Ennis.

[aintfoolin]

Yes... suicidal! I understand you well.

I agree with you - memories do fade away. Maybe the guilt too... 

Also, in time people change. Would Brokeback mountain influence those changes in positive or in negative way for Ennis's future, it is hard to know. We only know that bringing Jack's ashes to BBM would be truly overwhelming for Ennis.

I agree, overwhelming indeed! I see Ennis very hesitent to do it once he held them. There are lots of questions though. It would mean Ennis letting go. By taking the ashes up there, there would be a finality associated with it. Maybe by going back to the beginning, he could better accept the end.. after all, it's something Jack wanted, and it was something within Ennis's power to do .
 No doubt Ennis would finally  say "Jack, I'm sorry" up there on Brokeback Mt. along with everything else he felt, but could never say out loud. Sort of like an emotional cleansing ritual?
 Would it change him in a positive or a negative way? Good question. who knows, it's Ennis.

[Tony]

There are lots of questions though. 
 No doubt Ennis would finally  say "Jack, I'm sorry" up there on Brokeback Mt. along with everything else he felt, but could never say out loud. Sort of like an emotional cleansing ritual?
 Would it change him in a positive or a negative way? Good question. who knows, it's Ennis.

   Yeah, it would be difficult to know.  Could there ever be any closure?

     There does seem to be some difference, there, between the SS and the film.  The film's last scenes can suggest all kinds of endings for Ennis.  And, as Ethan once noted, he was putting up his address on his mailbox, which would be a sign, maybe, of being open to new life.  And he did commit to his daughter.
   But, in the prologue of the SS, I don't see any chance of Ennis ever having much of a life or "moving on" (which is a phrase that can be very wrongful).  Jack Twist had been in his dreams, and so, as he awoke in a sweat-drenched bed, he was happy.  This was a slowly dying man, I think, but one who had internalized Jack, and would carry this great love to the grave.  He lived off of dreams of his lost lover.
 But however we see this, I always defer to AF, (well, ok, almost always), as her understanding of Ennis is very advanced.  I bolded the above, because, by saying she didn't know absolutely, but then, mentioning that it was Ennis, supposes we should take that into account.  And we should.  A lot of people make up an Ennis that they would want, rather than accepting the one we met.

[aintfoolin]

   Yeah, it would be difficult to know.  Could there ever be any closure?

     There does seem to be some difference, there, between the SS and the film.  The film's last scenes can suggest all kinds of endings for Ennis.  And, as Ethan once noted, he was putting up his address on his mailbox, which would be a sign, maybe, of being open to new life.  And he did commit to his daughter.
   But, in the prologue of the SS, I don't see any chance of Ennis ever having much of a life or "moving on" (which is a phrase that can be very wrongful).  Jack Twist had been in his dreams, and so, as he awoke in a sweat-drenched bed, he was happy.  This was a slowly dying man, I think, but one who had internalized Jack, and would carry this great love to the grave.  He lived off of dreams of his lost lover.
 But however we see this, I always defer to AF, (well, ok, almost always), as her understanding of Ennis is very advanced.  I bolded the above, because, by saying she didn't know absolutely, but then, mentioning that it was Ennis, supposes we should take that into account.  And we should.  A lot of people make up an Ennis that they would want, rather than accepting the one we met.

Well, thanks Tony, He's a complex man that Ennis Del Mar. He's basically a good man with a good heart. Good and proper , but while watching him evolve in the film, ..going from a shy, introverted, wounded soul and basically anti-social to a wild and crazy  naked cliffjumper. Just when I felt I had him figured, he'd surprised me."grin" but...

Your right, Ennis did internalize what he and Jack had together and he dreamed about it.. which could suggest that Ennis thought about Jack alot after his death. Living on dreams of Jack when sleeping and now having plenty of time to put into perspective why Jack did and said the things he did while he was still alive while awake.. It's all could've, should've now, but Jack was the best thing that ever happened to him. It could be a bleak picture at times, but I bet when Ennis looked back at the insanity of it all , he smiled. Ah, the memories he had with Jack Twist. Ol' Brokeback got us good. MO.