Topic: Jack and that cabin

[chowhound]

Do people here think it is likely that Jack ever discussed with Ennis the cabin they were supposed to build and live in together when helping to run OMT's ranch?  Or is it maybe a "pretend place", to use Lureen's term, - a place where, imaginatively at least, Jack could keep alive his dream of living with Ennis?

The idea of living together only comes up twice and, in a sense, forms a bookend to their long affair. The first time it brought up is by Jack during their initial retreat:

     What if you and me had a little ranch together somewhere, little cow-and-calf operation,
     it'd be a sweet life.

The only other time it is mentioned is again by Jack, this time during the Final Confrontation:

     Tell you what, we could of had a good life together, a f....in' real good life, had us a place of our own.
     You wouldn't do it Ennis, so what we got now is Brokeback Mountain.

However, in the years that elapse between these two scenes, we never get to hear the subject mentioned again. But was it brought up, I wonder? Did Jack ever mention to Ennis the possibility of living together on his father's ranch? Personally, I can't see Ennis ever agreeing to live with Jack under the watchful scrutiny of OMT. I would have thought, too, that Jack would have realized how unappealing that would have been for Ennis.

So maybe it was a "pretend" place which Jack used to fend of the insistent - and selfish - demands of his father that he abandon his Texas life and come back - along with Ennis - to help him out. One day, Jack seems to be saying to his father, one day, but not today. Nevertheless, even in talking about their cabin, he was keeping his hopes alive.

Even Jack's use of "cabin" rather than "house or "apartment" when nominally sketching out his plans for his father, suggests that Jack may well have been thinking about the original "cow-and calf" operation rather than somewhere in public view on his father's ranch. For cabin, for me at least, suggests somewhere hidden in the woods, far, far away from those prying eyes Ennis so much fears, where the two of them, as on Brokeback, could once more be together again alone. However, in the world in which we - and they - have to live, such a vision, while possible in the real world, can also gather around itself some of the qualities of a mirage or a dream.

[lancecowboy]

Do people here think it is likely that Jack ever discussed with Ennis the cabin they were supposed to build and live in together when helping to run OMT's ranch?  Or is it maybe a "pretend place", to use Lureen's term, - a place where, imaginatively at least, Jack could keep alive his dream of living with Ennis?

You bet. One of the mystery of the story is the deafening silence between Ennis and Jack, when it comes to that sweet life. The whole tragedy of Brokeback Mountain is that they couldn't have this sweet life except in the middle of no where, away from everyone else.

Jack was willing to build this sweet life together with Ennis, but Ennis was too afraid to take the risk, to take the plunge, to make a commitment, to get out from his comfort zone, to go further than around the coffee pot looking for the handle...

The idea of living together only comes up twice and, in a sense, forms a bookend to their long affair. The first time it brought up is by Jack during their initial retreat:

     What if you and me had a little ranch together somewhere, little cow-and-calf operation,
     it'd be a sweet life.

The only other time it is mentioned is again by Jack, this time during the Final Confrontation:

     Tell you what, we could of had a good life together, a f....in' real good life, had us a place of our own.
     You wouldn't do it Ennis, so what we got now is Brokeback Mountain.

Nothing explicit can be found in the short story or the movie, but I wonder if they didn't talk about it some more. Perhaps Jack might bring up the topic once in a while in the tents, in Don Wroe's cabin that year, or some time before the divorce, which is perhaps the reason for his excitement and happiness driving to Riverton when he got word that Ennis was getting a divorce. He misunderstood, by wishful thinking, that the sweet life is within grasp.

However, in the years that elapse between these two scenes, we never get to hear the subject mentioned again. But was it brought up, I wonder? Did Jack ever mention to Ennis the possibility of living together on his father's ranch? Personally, I can't see Ennis ever agreeing to live with Jack under the watchful scrutiny of OMT. I would have thought, too, that Jack would have realized how unappealing that would have been for Ennis.

So maybe it was a "pretend" place which Jack used to fend of the insistent - and selfish - demands of his father that he abandon his Texas life and come back - along with Ennis - to help him out. One day, Jack seems to be saying to his father, one day, but not today. Nevertheless, even in talking about their cabin, he was keeping his hopes alive.

Even Jack's use of "cabin" rather than "house or "apartment" when nominally sketching out his plans for his father, suggests that Jack may well have been thinking about the original "cow-and calf" operation rather than somewhere in public view on his father's ranch. For cabin, for me at least, suggests somewhere hidden in the woods, far, far away from those prying eyes Ennis so much fears, where the two of them, as on Brokeback, could once more be together again alone. However, in the world in which we - and they - have to live, such a vision, while possible in the real world, can also gather around itself some of the qualities of a mirage or a dream.

I think Jack told the old man that they would build themselves a cabin because he wanted to make clear that he and Ennis were not going to live under his roof. They would pay their own way, and be their own men. Sharing the same house with his old man would be impossible. It is also why Jack talked about getting a divorce from Lureen, and being paid off by Old Newsome to walk away. After the divorce scene, and by that fateful Thanksgiving, Jack reckoned there was no chance of a sweet life with Ennis, so he might as well make the most of what he had in Texas, and laid down the law in his house, putting the old man in his place. It was ironic because after standing up to Old Man Newsome, it became all the more difficult for Jack to leave Lureen, and pursue the sweet life with Ennis.

At one point, when Ennis asked Jack "you ever got the feeling...," he was perhaps ready to hear the proposal for the sweet life again. But Jack already left that dream, and all he could think of was to ask Ennis to "move to Texas." Ennis was too proud to consider that, not to mention he needed to stay close to the girls. That's probably why he got mad at Jack, because he was disappointed that Jack didn't talk about the cow and calf operation again.

In the end, neither the short story nor the movie expanded on this sweet life, and focused instead, on the tragic life destroyed by homophobia in 'em early days in rural Wyoming, the tragic life of dreams worn thin by despair and futility, the tragic life of love lost through fears and lack of courage, the tragic lives of the wives who never knew true love because the men they loved had to hide their true feelings from a society that did not understand.

It is this dramatic tension of the sweet life denied that drove so many to write fan fictions to explore what could have been.

But time has changed, and the sweet life is not only possible, it is real, not just in movies or on television (in shows like Brothers and Sisters, or Verbotene Liebe, etc) but in the real lives of men and women living in developed countries, and in the courageous lives of pioneers living in developing countries yet to affirm the dignity of gay people.

Dreams sometimes can come true.

[Tony]

Do people here think it is likely that Jack ever discussed with Ennis the cabin they were supposed to build and live in together when helping to run OMT's ranch?  Or is it maybe a "pretend place", to use Lureen's term, - a place where, imaginatively at least, Jack could keep alive his dream of living with Ennis?

  I don't think he discussed that idea with Ennis, but that's just a light opinion.  Ennis was showing no reaction when OMT brought up Jack's scheme, so that's kind of a neutral.  But if Jack had fully outlined it to Ennis, I think there would have been more showing up in the SS and film as far as the rejection.  All we have is Jack's saying: "I did once, during the end quarrel, and referring to his having had the idea of them living together and Ennis having shot it down. Had there been more, he probably would have said more.
  Which then brings up Jack's interior fantasy world.  We had once, on this forum, explored how much of an introvert Ennis was, internalizing his love and not showing it much except by being there once or twice a year, faithfully.  It's something we may have missed, that Jack had an introverted streak, too, internalizing his love for Ennis, maybe because there, inside, was its safest expression.
 Both of them, then, living within some kind of bubble world, unable to merge the two or compromise (although I still hold to Andrew's theory that Ennis was moving towards concessions, after the Diner scene with Cassie).

[lancecowboy]

  I don't think he discussed that idea with Ennis, but that's just a light opinion.  Ennis was showing no reaction when OMT brought up Jack's scheme, so that's kind of a neutral.  But if Jack had fully outlined it to Ennis, I think there would have been more showing up in the SS and film as far as the rejection.  All we have is Jack's saying: "I did once, during the end quarrel, and referring to his having had the idea of them living together and Ennis having shot it down. Had there been more, he probably would have said more.

Although I agree that neither shortstory nor movie had much to say about the cabin, and I am not sure how much Jack and Ennis discussed it after the first time, I must say that I disagree with the bold part above. I believe Ennis reacted quite strongly to the old man's mentioning Jack's always saying bringing up Ennis to whip the ranch into shape. If I recall, and it has been a long while since I last watched the movie, Ennis was visibly moved, in the closeup that Ang Lee and Heath did so masterfully the understated expression, exactly what Ennis would show, his nostrils flared momentarily, and his eyes watered. There was, in my opinion, a difference in tension in Ennis, especially in the second half of the old man's description, that Jack changed his tune this spring, and talked about the rancher neighbour. Ennis looked even more ashen than before, more heart-broken than in the beginning, when he was filled with the hope of retrieving Jack's ashes to take to Brokeback Mountain, to say a final goodbye.

I think it was masterful timing for Ang Lee to cut at that very moment to Jack's Ma, as she placed her hand gently on Ennis' shoulder and invited him to Jack's room, the one she kept it like when he was a boy. The tension from the broken dreams transformed into the anticipation of discovery, of finding out what Jack was like as a child. As the tension builds with each step up that staircase with its own rhythm, the brief seconds showcased the genius of Heath's ability to turn wordlessly the simplest moment into an opportunity to convey the emotional subtext that perfectly fits with the script.

The remaining scene in Jack's room is, of course, perfectly executed in every way. 

  Which then brings up Jack's interior fantasy world.  We had once, on this forum, explored how much of an introvert Ennis was, internalizing his love and not showing it much except by being there once or twice a year, faithfully.  It's something we may have missed, that Jack had an introverted streak, too, internalizing his love for Ennis, maybe because there, inside, was its safest expression.
 Both of them, then, living within some kind of bubble world, unable to merge the two or compromise (although I still hold to Andrew's theory that Ennis was moving towards concessions, after the Diner scene with Cassie).

Introversion and extroversion are to some degree relative. I agree and recall that there was a discussion about the two cowboys being loners in the rural poverty from opposite corners of the wide open space of Wyoming. If I remember, I asserted that Jack may be more extroverted than Ennis, but I believe he was in fact an introvert that turned extrovert, a dreamer with a knack to connect with people. The resonance between Ennis and Jack was their shared dream, of cowboys living in the wilderness, enjoying each other. Jack had the dreams and Ennis provided the know-how to make the dreams come true. That's why they were soul mates. Without Jack, Ennis would be drifting all his life, from Alma to Cassie to who ever, without ambition and settling for nothing. With Jack, he looked forward to those few times a year up there in the mountains, in the middle of no where. If he could only overcome the fear, he would have lived the sweet life with Jack, with a cow and calf operation, and whatever dreams Jack had. It's what drove Jack to drinking, all the dreams that went no where. 

[Tony]

  Wonderful post, Andrew!  Yes, you are right that Ennis did in fact react to what OMT said about Jack planning for them both to be there. And your development of that did justice to the great acting at that point, there.
  I guess by "neutral" I was trying to say, he didn't clearly give away whether the scheme was known to him and had been discussed with Jack. Your going past that very limited sense of neutrality covered the needed territory.
  

[lancecowboy]

 Wonderful post, Andrew!  Yes, you are right that Ennis did in fact react to what OMT said about Jack planning for them both to be there. And your development of that did justice to the great acting at that point, there.
  I guess by "neutral" I was trying to say, he didn't clearly give away whether the scheme was known to him and had been discussed with Jack. Your going past that very limited sense of neutrality covered the needed territory.
  

Thanks, Tony. You always bring out the best in me.

Reading my own post again, I realized there is the additional discovery:

The remaining scene in Jack's room is, of course, perfectly executed in every way.

That remaining scene has embedded in it, the greater discovery, the poignant moment, while Ennis was trying to connect with Jack as a child, touching different parts of the room, picking up his boots, touching the shirts, as if following Jack as he grew from a child into a man, and then, in the corner of the closet, hidden behind the nook on a hook, Ennis discovered the love that Jack had for him all that time, for twenty years. The magnitude of Jack's broken dreams was what shattered the wall that kept Ennis in his own world. The meaning of building the cabin, the cow and calf operation, at that moment became clear to Ennis. Whether they discussed the cabin or not, at that moment, after listening to the old man, Ennis had no doubt what the dream was, and how he denied it from Jack for twenty years.   From grief of loss, Ennis was broken with the grief of guilt, and he was never the same again. It was only the grace of Jack's Ma's acceptance, her hospitality, that saved him from total despair. "Thanks for this." was not just for the shirt, but also for retrieving a part of Jack's dream, to be with Jack in some small way. So that not all was lost. In a sense, the trailer that Ennis lived in the rest of his life, was the cabin that he shared with Jack, in their shirts, on Brokeback Mountain, on a postcard.   "You don't need nothing when you got nothing." Or, perhaps, "You don't need nothing when you've got everything that mattered."

Happy Valentine's Day, Ennis.

[Tony]

Thanks, Tony. You always bring out the best in me.

  Thanks, Andrew. Same here. Actually, there has been a lot of interplay on these threads that has been very creative. Mainly, when there's disagreement, it is constructive.  I've learned a lot.
  Meanwhile, I still don't think Jack brought up his hope to move Ennis to Lightning Flat, and further, I think that was a big mistake. The idea of helping out Jack's parents, IMO, would have affected Ennis differently than just getting a place for themselves. It would have been helping someone else.  Not being cynical, I hope, but it also would have provided more of a cover.  That, plus Aintfoolin's statement waaay back, that all they needed was a shotgun and some Rottweilers, and it would have worked.
 But I also, still believe the issue was love, not sex (Hoo, boy -the "Fear of Love" thread was my big heresy in he Brokie community, but it was what I believed).  No matter what cabin, no matter what little ranch, I still believe the two were shy and fearful of the depth of their love for each other.  That may not be what AP and the screenplay writers meant to explore, but I think that was the real obstacle to even discussing the cabin. Sex had been settled up on; depth of love had not.

[lancecowboy]

 Thanks, Andrew. Same here. Actually, there has been a lot of interplay on these threads that has been very creative. Mainly, when there's disagreement, it is constructive.  I've learned a lot.

Ditto.  

 Meanwhile, I still don't think Jack brought up his hope to move Ennis to Lightning Flat, and further, I think that was a big mistake. The idea of helping out Jack's parents, IMO, would have affected Ennis differently than just getting a place for themselves. It would have been helping someone else.  Not being cynical, I hope, but it also would have provided more of a cover.  That, plus Aintfoolin's statement waaay back, that all they needed was a shotgun and some Rottweilers, and it would have worked.

I agree. Ennis would have been happy to help out Jack's parent on the ranch. And it would be a perfect cover. And I like the idea of a couple Rottweilers and a shotgun. Ennis is especially a good shot. Jack is not perfect after all.  

But I also, still believe the issue was love, not sex (Hoo, boy -the "Fear of Love" thread was my big heresy in he Brokie community, but it was what I believed).  No matter what cabin, no matter what little ranch, I still believe the two were shy and fearful of the depth of their love for each other.  That may not be what AP and the screenplay writers meant to explore, but I think that was the real obstacle to even discussing the cabin. Sex had been settled up on; depth of love had not.

I don't know about "Fear of Love" being heresy. I agree with the assessment that the two were okay with two guys having some fun, but no discussion of love was allowed, not even when Ennis confessed at the reunion that he thought of Jack hundreds of time while stemming the rose. Sex was okay among guys, but love...? That's sissy talk and Ennis was not going anywhere near that topic, so Jack had to respect his boundaries and stayed clear of the topic too. The closest he got to it was "I wish I knew how to quit you." or "I miss you so much, you don't know how bad it gets."  or "I ain't like you Ennis, happy with a few high altitude f@#ks a few times a year." All these declarations amount to "I love you so much I cannot live without you." and "I love you so much that I miss you whenever we are apart." and "I ain't like you Ennis. I need more than just sex. I need love."

I really truly believe the addition of Cassie in the movie, and especially the scene at the diner is what makes Brokeback Mountain a better movie than without it. That moment of Ennis discovering Cassie loved him, not just for a bit of fun, is echoed in the closet when Ennis discovered the two shirts hidden all 'em years on a hook, whenever Jack went home to visit.

Ennis knew as he was going up to Lightning Flats, that Jack meant more than a bit of fun between two guys, because he saw in Cassie's reaction in the diner his own reaction to losing Jack, girls don't fall in love for fun. But discovering the two shirts and having heard only minutes earlier the old man describing Jack constantly talking about him, every year for twenty years of building a cabin and working the ranch...that showed him what it meant to be loved.

At that moment, in a flash, as Ennis reached out for the sleeves soaked with his own blood, he felt the depth of Jack's love, and the emptiness of losing it, without ever holding it. He could only hold on to the shirts.   That would have to be good enough for him. That's all he had left.

[jake]

Ditto.  

I agree. Ennis would have been happy to help out Jack's parent on the ranch. And it would be a perfect cover. And I like the idea of a couple Rottweilers and a shotgun. Ennis is especially a good shot. Jack is not perfect after all.  

I don't know about "Fear of Love" being heresy. I agree with the assessment that the two were okay with two guys having some fun, but no discussion of love was allowed, not even when Ennis confessed at the reunion that he thought of Jack hundreds of time while stemming the rose. Sex was okay among guys, but love...? That's sissy talk and Ennis was not going anywhere near that topic, so Jack had to respect his boundaries and stayed clear of the topic too. The closest he got to it was "I wish I knew how to quit you." or "I miss you so much, you don't know how bad it gets."  or "I ain't like you Ennis, happy with a few high altitude f@#ks a few times a year." All these declarations amount to "I love you so much I cannot live without you." and "I love you so much that I miss you whenever we are apart." and "I ain't like you Ennis. I need more than just sex. I need love."

I really truly believe the addition of Cassie in the movie, and especially the scene at the diner is what makes Brokeback Mountain a better movie than without it. That moment of Ennis discovering Cassie loved him, not just for a bit of fun, is echoed in the closet when Ennis discovered the two shirts hidden all 'em years on a hook, whenever Jack went home to visit.

Ennis knew as he was going up to Lightning Flats, that Jack meant more than a bit of fun between two guys, because he saw in Cassie's reaction in the diner his own reaction to losing Jack, girls don't fall in love for fun. But discovering the two shirts and having heard only minutes earlier the old man describing Jack constantly talking about him, every year for twenty years of building a cabin and working the ranch...that showed him what it meant to be loved.

At that moment, in a flash, as Ennis reached out for the sleeves soaked with his own blood, he felt the depth of Jack's love, and the emptiness of losing it, without ever holding it. He could only hold on to the shirts.   That would have to be good enough for him. That's all he had left.

And here I am sobbing again
Really touching post lance, especially the highlighted part

Don't really have much to add here, I agree about Cassie importance.

[lancecowboy]

And here I am sobbing again
Really touching post lance, especially the highlighted part

Don't really have much to add here, I agree about Cassie importance.

  Jake  There's no reins on this one. But if it is any consolation, once you get through the sobbing you are left with the beauty of a love that binds.  Welcome to the valley carved by the sorrow of Ennis and Jack, and I hope you find the joy of a love like theirs. 

[tpe]

My feeling is that Jack never mentioned it during the intervening years.

But surely, he must have mentioned it many times to his parents. 

It was what he cherished the most and aimed for, and I am sure that he felt for a time that he would inevitably get Ennis to see his way.  I also suspect that Jack was all the while finding an opportunity to bring up the subject, had he detected a change of heart in Ennis.

But whether the place was to be in LF, in Texas, or some other place is far from definite.  I think that for Jack, the place wouldn't have matter much so long as Ennis complied with the main thing: which was to live with Jack. 

So, mentioning the possibility of the 2 of them living in LF must have been only one of the possibilities that Jack thought about, and elaborated on whenever he was back to visit his parents...

Do people here think it is likely that Jack ever discussed with Ennis the cabin they were supposed to build and live in together when helping to run OMT's ranch?  Or is it maybe a "pretend place", to use Lureen's term, - a place where, imaginatively at least, Jack could keep alive his dream of living with Ennis?

The idea of living together only comes up twice and, in a sense, forms a bookend to their long affair. The first time it brought up is by Jack during their initial retreat:

     What if you and me had a little ranch together somewhere, little cow-and-calf operation,
     it'd be a sweet life.

The only other time it is mentioned is again by Jack, this time during the Final Confrontation:

     Tell you what, we could of had a good life together, a f....in' real good life, had us a place of our own.
     You wouldn't do it Ennis, so what we got now is Brokeback Mountain.

However, in the years that elapse between these two scenes, we never get to hear the subject mentioned again. But was it brought up, I wonder? Did Jack ever mention to Ennis the possibility of living together on his father's ranch? Personally, I can't see Ennis ever agreeing to live with Jack under the watchful scrutiny of OMT. I would have thought, too, that Jack would have realized how unappealing that would have been for Ennis.

So maybe it was a "pretend" place which Jack used to fend of the insistent - and selfish - demands of his father that he abandon his Texas life and come back - along with Ennis - to help him out. One day, Jack seems to be saying to his father, one day, but not today. Nevertheless, even in talking about their cabin, he was keeping his hopes alive.

Even Jack's use of "cabin" rather than "house or "apartment" when nominally sketching out his plans for his father, suggests that Jack may well have been thinking about the original "cow-and calf" operation rather than somewhere in public view on his father's ranch. For cabin, for me at least, suggests somewhere hidden in the woods, far, far away from those prying eyes Ennis so much fears, where the two of them, as on Brokeback, could once more be together again alone. However, in the world in which we - and they - have to live, such a vision, while possible in the real world, can also gather around itself some of the qualities of a mirage or a dream.

[Tony]

It was what he cherished the most and aimed for, and I am sure that he felt for a time that he would inevitably get Ennis to see his way.  I also suspect that Jack was all the while finding an opportunity to bring up the subject, had he detected a change of heart in Ennis.

  Hi, Thomas - yeah, Jack wanted the two of them to live together, but, and here I am guessing, after being rebuffed on the ranch idea, he then went to the idea of helping his parents and  having Ennis with him.  A two-fer. Solving two problems.  He brought up the ranch once, and was shot down.  But, according to OMT, the scheme of bringing Ennis to Lightning Flat was there, year after year, for many years.
  As for an opportunity for bringing it up, maybe he was waiting, hopefully, for when Ennis' 2 daughters would be grown. Or maybe, this version of his dream had become so dear to his heart, he just couldn't risk this one being shot down, and so, kept his dream separate from their real world.

[tpe]

Excdellent point, Tony!  Thanks for bringing this up and bringing it into sharper focus.  It does make sense that he would try to put these 2 things together.

And yes, for jack, it became a sort of waiting game -- perhaps he initially thought that there was enough time.  But there was never enough time...  Never enough...  Or, as you say, better to wait rather than to risk being shot down.

 Hi, Thomas - yeah, Jack wanted the two of them to live together, but, and here I am guessing, after being rebuffed on the ranch idea, he then went to the idea of helping his parents and  having Ennis with him.  A two-fer. Solving two problems.  He brought up the ranch once, and was shot down.  But, according to OMT, the scheme of bringing Ennis to Lightning Flat was there, year after year, for many years.
  As for an opportunity for bringing it up, maybe he was waiting, hopefully, for when Ennis' 2 daughters would be grown. Or maybe, this version of his dream had become so dear to his heart, he just couldn't risk this one being shot down, and so, kept his dream separate from their real world.

[lancecowboy]

  Hi, Thomas - yeah, Jack wanted the two of them to live together, but, and here I am guessing, after being rebuffed on the ranch idea, he then went to the idea of helping his parents and  having Ennis with him.  A two-fer. Solving two problems.  He brought up the ranch once, and was shot down.  But, according to OMT, the scheme of bringing Ennis to Lightning Flat was there, year after year, for many years.
  As for an opportunity for bringing it up, maybe he was waiting, hopefully, for when Ennis' 2 daughters would be grown. Or maybe, this version of his dream had become so dear to his heart, he just couldn't risk this one being shot down, and so, kept his dream separate from their real world.

This is an interesting point, Tony. I agree with you that perhaps Jack only thought of the cow and calf operation with Ennis at first, just the two of them in the middle of no where, doing whatever that's nobody's business but theirs. And the idea evolved after visiting his parents year after year, and hearing the old man Twist probably nagging him to come home and help out around the ranch. I can hear the old man nagging and complaining. It fits with his character that with Jack grown and standing up for himself, he couldn't bully Jack no more so he had to put him down somehow, and needling Jack to help out around the ranch is his way of being in control.

It is also conceivable that Jack never talked much more about it with Ennis because he had to convince his parents to allow it before he could take it up with the man of his dreams. Knowing the old man, he probably thought of a million reasons why he didn't want no stranger to stay there.

  Thanks, Tony, for the insight into the cabin and the ranch and the dream that never came to be. You always see more than most people in any given situation. 

[jorae]

Jack was presented as being kind of a story teller by his wife...The one scene where Ennis is washing dishes in the stream, me make a joke about a "river of whiskey." Then when Ennis is on the phone with Mrs Twist, she quotes her husbands day dreaming with the "whiskey fountain." His wife knows him well enough to know he fantasizes sometimes... and when she says it, the camera turn to Ennis and we see him smile... Jack had always meant a cabin at his dads ranch, but never fully told the truth...Ennis catches on when the old man brings in up..."another dream of Jacks to get this farm in shape"...Ennis is putting the facts together when the audience is ambushed by the dads admission that Jack was going to bring up a Ranch Forman instead!

I think the old man though the idea was great because he wanted the free help...I  don't think the father would have thought it was okay if he thought his son was gay and bringing up his lover....and we are presented with a pretty stearn and unforgiving dad...that never even help Jack  learn bull riding.

The cabin, I think was to feel Ennis out and Ennis make it very clear all through the movie, that he knew what would happen to them if anyone ever found out - they would be killed. You can almost see Ennis thinking "how in God's name did Jack think we could pull this off right under his fathers nose?"...

When Jack brings it up again, its not done to ask him again, but to state "look at the position you've put me - by your never agreeing to live with me - basically like making arrangements to see the Pope."...

And Ennis replies..."Because of you, I'm nobody and I'm nothing." Ennis has had to  quit his jobs evertime year just to beable to get the time off.. But we notice that Ennis has never complained about this...Ennis is not a complainer....

On the other hand,remember when Jack won't call the principle for a tutor...."she doesn't like me, I complain to much"...

Jack states his father-in-law would pay to see him go...but we never see that in the movie...I think he would have worked up to it, if Ennis had started going along with the idea.

[tpe]

The last time that Jack came close to bringing up the subject of the cabin (i.e., the sweet life) is in the last confrontation, of course.  I agree that he did not bring it up in order to ask Ennis again about the whole thing.  At that point, I really feel that jack had given up hope that Ennis would ever come around. 

It was brought up as a kind of rebuke -- certainly -- and as a reminder of how much they had squandered for the sake of playing it safe.  It is as if Jack dared Ennis to face up to the fact that they had never been happy, ever since they turned their backs at the promise of BBM, for the sake of safe securities...

[jorae]

Well, a few things have happened since my post, one back.

1.  Interview with the cast on Oprah - part 3 - Ann H is asked if she thinks Lureen knew...she is vague and does not want to answer...the audience is asked, and they all yell...YES SHE KNEW....

2.  I bought Anne P's " Range" which has the original BBM  - the same as  NewYorker one -  and here I found out....

1.  Lureen's dad pasted away...so when we see her at the adding machine and we here Jack say that she's really good as a business person...she is now the owner....Dad is not there anymore to pay him to leave...

So, this means, if he left, the business would be considered joint property since they were married quite sometime befor he died....

We know the movie shows her on the phone as kind of just stating the facts...The book describes Lureen's voice polite...not a carring voice or a voice that broke into tears as she spoke to someone that she knows will take Jack's death hard.

I think Lureen got wind of the affair with the Ranch forman and had Jake killed...she had the money and she sure didn't want to split the business with Jake if he left...

Also, I thought  old man Twist was unaware about Jake's sexuality, but the book states he treated Ennis as if knew...In the movie, we know he isn't a nice person...

Time line in book is more clear too...about how he was killed just a few months after the May 83 reunion.

May 83 - the breaking loose of disappointments by Twist

Post card took months to come back with "Deceased" and post card was about Nov 83...

So he was killed just a few months after the confrontation...and the dad basically states...."... this spring, Jack tells me he's bring up some Ranch forman"....So, May is Spring...and every year since Jake's been married, he has gone to help out at the ranch...So, Jack leaves Ennis, goes to his dad's and tells the dad he's going to bring up a Ranch Forman and not Ennis...

And in the book it is real clear,  due to Jacks needs, he was killed with a tire iron and not the blow out that Lureen suggested...

OMG...for a short storey, it sure has a lot packed into it.

My guess, even in Jack did build the cabin, brought up the ranch forman, he still would have gone every chance he got, to see Ennis...

[tpe]

I think Lureen got wind of the affair with the Ranch forman and had Jake killed...she had the money and she sure didn't want to split the business with Jake if he left...

OT: I think there is a separate old thread dealing with the nature of jack's death...

My guess, even in Jack did build the cabin, brought up the ranch forman, he still would have gone every chance he got, to see Ennis...

I think so too.  It would have been impossible for him to forget Ennis over the long haul...

[gordo]

Tony what is you take on the scene where Jack was seated with another man outside of the restaurant.  This other guy suggested goning to a cabin and having wisky and fishing?  Gordo

[Tony]

  Hi, Gordo- it's great to see someone new to the forum going to posting; and, welcome aboard!

      As for my take on that scene, am afraid am not very far advanced in looking it over.  Usually, we get to understand a scene better by back-and-forth between the members here, and I haven't seen much, on this.  In fact, I've drawn a blank on the guy's name (LaShawn's husband).
   Was he making a play for Jack? It was subtle but he did know what he was doing. So, what made him think Jack was available - gaydar?  Or just taking a risk?
   All I have felt, was that Jack did not lure him on.  There's some who say Jack did, but they also are prone to seeing Jack as full-blown gay, and very promiscuous and experienced.  I think Jack's clear surprise, and puzzlement, and slowness to respond, at least undermines the theory he provoked the guy's interest.
  So, not much from me.  What would be your take, Gordo?  Around here, everybody's point of view is respected, so, please don't be shy on that.  Tony.

[gordo]

Hi Tony:

Your my first (they say it hurts the first time....lol) reply from me putting out a question.  My take on the guy with Jack on the bench out side of the restaurant was right away and it's this:  The guy was trying too see if Jack was going to take the bait to see if Jack would go and then find out he is gay  and squeal on him.....no no no that quickly changed then I thought the stranger was trying to pick up Jack for a mutual jump in the sack for both their pleasure..... then my thoughts quickly went to well this is a stunning request as Jack and Ennis liked to drink and camp and it fit the scenario.
Gordo
P.S.  I hope I am doing right by this site.  I am from Canada and you?
I have been so obsessed with this movie that I had to check everywhere I can to see if other people was affected by it as well.  I really was mourning

[Tony]

..... then my thoughts quickly went to well this is a stunning request as Jack and Ennis liked to drink and camp and it fit the scenario.

  Well, that's a good point.  Kind of strange, wasn't it, that Jack wasn't being asked to a motel, or a private home, but.....back to the old "hunting and fishing" cover.  That must have really waggled Jack's mind around, a little!

  By the way, am glad you told us how your impressions of the scene changed several times.  That brought me back to my own first viewing, when I often wasn't sure what was going on.  Good job, Gordo!
  (p.s.: am from the U.S.)

[lancecowboy]

  Interesting discussion.

I am not sure if we can definitively say that Randall's cabin proposal was a come on. Yes, I took it as a come on just at first, and I assume Ang Lee planned it that way, given the deleted scene at the gas station. But, objectively speaking, they were sitting there for a while waiting on the wives before Jack asked that funny question to break the awkward silence. It's not clear that Randall knew about Jack just from the dinner and dance. The pregnant pause before Jack's reply might have given Randall the idea, however, and it might have been the reason for his proposal...the sly devil. Any straight Texan rancher would have jumped at the suggestion, and not thought twice about it. Jack however, must have been distracted, by thoughts of that time with Ennis at Don Wroe's cabin.

It's amazing how many points of ambiguity there are in the story...kinda like real life. Nothing is for certain, but out of uncertainty comes a lot of interesting development.

[mimi]

Interesting discussion.

I am not sure if we can definitively say that Randall's cabin proposal was a come on. Yes, I took it as a come on just at first, and I assume Ang Lee planned it that way, given the deleted scene at the gas station. But, objectively speaking, they were sitting there for a while waiting on the wives before Jack asked that funny question to break the awkward silence. It's not clear that Randall knew about Jack just from the dinner and dance. The pregnant pause before Jack's reply might have given Randall the idea, however, and it might have been the reason for his proposal...the sly devil. Any straight Texan rancher would have jumped at the suggestion, and not thought twice about it. Jack however, must have been distracted, by thoughts of that time with Ennis at Don Wroe's cabin.

It's amazing how many points of ambiguity there are in the story...kinda like real life. Nothing is for certain, but out of uncertainty comes a lot of interesting development.

Exactly! and its that ambiguity that i love!

BTW, what deleted scene at the gas station???

I've been wondering about any deleted scenes of brokeback...I only know of the sixties hippies one...

please tell me where i could find this elusive gas station scene 

[lancecowboy]

Here you go, maddy.

http://www.findingbrokeback.com/Deleted_Scenes/_Deleted_Scenes_Frame.html

It has photos and descriptions of all the deleted scenes.

[mimi]

thanks lancecowboy 

[lancecowboy]

You are very welcome, mate.