Topic: Ennis: Sending up a prayer of thanks

[Jack_ME]

Jack: Anything interesting up there in heaven?

Ennis: I was just sending up a prayer of thanks. 

Jack: For what?

Ennis: For you forgettin to bring that harmonica. I'm enjoyin the peace and quiet.






I haven't seen this discussed anywhere (or can't find it if it has):

Everytime I watch this scene where Jack asks:Anything interesting up there in heaven?

and then Ennis replies: I was just sending up a prayer of thanks.

I believe that Ennis was very happy, but serious, and had Jack responded with a knowing agreement, Ennis would have said what he really was thanking Heaven for........namely being there with Jack again after 4 long years of separation, and no doubt believing during those 4  years that he would never see Jack again, let alone be with him again at their special place.

I feel it is Jack's responding with a (ignorant of what Ennis is truly thankful for) cavelier: For what?

(like he did with his offer of money, when Ennis was actually expressing his great disappointment about leaving Jack and the Summer of Brokeback in the only way he (Ennis) could at that time, namely by saying they were getting short-changed a month of pay. That response that Summer, sent Ennis off to first sit on a stump and beat a stick against the ground, then go off and sit and pout on the hillside. Jack didn't get Ennis's attempt to express his anger and disappointment at being forced to change their happy loving environment, and instead he (Jack) just took what Ennis said litterally and missed the true meaning of Ennis's communication.)

And so again this time at the fireside reunion Brokeback, Jack misses what Ennis is really expressing. But since Ennis is so happy likely with a week being together still ahead of them, he is able to deflect his true thoughts and true prayer of thanks into a little joke, since Jack had been oblivious to what should have been so obvious after Ennis said he was sending a prayer of thanks.

From the first viewing of the film this is what I heard. When Jack responds with his: For What? I couldn't believe it! It really seemed so obvious to me that Ennis was thanking Heaven for allowing them to be together again. But Jack missed it, so Ennis lets it be light and makes a joke.


And because of that Ennis is again grounded in the present and separated from his moment of feeling, so that when after that, Jack does seem to get it and says: You know, it could be like this. Just like this, always

Ennis says: Yeah? How you figure that?

And then we are led into the horrible trauma memory.

If (this were another movie!) Jack had responded to Ennis's opening up of his feelings, Ennis then might have been able to communicate his fears in a different way, one which may have allowed Jack to suggest that there could be some possibilities, while still recognizing Ennis's fear.

Did anyone else feel the point of that scene was missed by Jack? And by us in focusing on the joke about the harmonica?

Jack in Maine

[Toadily]

I think Jack "got" the prayer of thanks bit, cause he launches right into "it could be like this..."

[jrfh50]

I would allow Jack to have feelings, insecurities, desires to be loved and fears that his love and desire are not reciprocated. Reading what you wrote, Jack_ME, makes me wonder why Ennis has to be so artfully interpreted and his inability to articulate what he means or wants directly (but doing so indirectly--I agree with you here) so easily made Jack's problem...why Ennis, trauma victim though he certainly is, is so poorly served by Jack in these instances.

Aren't there two people here working something out, or not working it out very well? Like Jack doesn't have a history of trauma (brought out big-time in the story, with his father pissing all over him when he was a kid) as well as Ennis? This reminds me of the expectation that women reaching for better communication with male partners afraid of soft feelings often get abused in some way and blamed by the abuser for the abuse. What's up with this?

I love Ennis, his masked tenderness, his struggle with fear, his holding on to what he can because he knows no other way. It is a beautiful rendition of how a human heart can still flood with love even if cramped by life. It's too easy to hold Jack responsible for not healing Ennis by reading him correctly and offering him corrective experiences to overcome trauma. He most surely is not responsible in this way. When he offered money, it might also be seen as a way of making a connection, as a way of saying "It's all right, you don't have to face this alone, I'll help." When he asked "For what?", it might also be seen as a way of drawing Ennis out, of giving him a chance to open up. Calling the question and the manner of asking it cavalier automatically dismisses any positive intent.

Can both be struggling humans?

[chameau]

I would allow Jack to have feelings, insecurities, desires to be loved and fears that his love and desire are not reciprocated. Reading what you wrote, Jack_ME, makes me wonder why Ennis has to be so artfully interpreted and his inability to articulate what he means or wants directly (but doing so indirectly--I agree with you here) so easily made Jack's problem...why Ennis, trauma victim though he certainly is, is so poorly served by Jack in these instances.

Aren't there two people here working something out, or not working it out very well? Like Jack doesn't have a history of trauma (brought out big-time in the story, with his father pissing all over him when he was a kid) as well as Ennis? This reminds me of the expectation that women reaching for better communication with male partners afraid of soft feelings often get abused in some way and blamed by the abuser for the abuse. What's up with this?

I love Ennis, his masked tenderness, his struggle with fear, his holding on to what he can because he knows no other way. It is a beautiful rendition of how a human heart can still flood with love even if cramped by life. It's too easy to hold Jack responsible for not healing Ennis by reading him correctly and offering him corrective experiences to overcome trauma. He most surely is not responsible in this way. When he offered money, it might also be seen as a way of making a connection, as a way of saying "It's all right, you don't have to face this alone, I'll help." When he asked "For what?", it might also be seen as a way of drawing Ennis out, of giving him a chance to open up. Calling the question and the manner of asking it cavalier automatically dismisses any positive intent.

Can both be struggling humans?

Thanks jrfh50 for this posting, I share your point of view.

[proulxfan]

I'm also struck by our expectations that Jack is supposed to be so skillful in reading Ennis's thoughts. In asking what Ennis was thankful for, maybe he was just expressing his need to hear Ennis say it out loud, to make sure he wasn't misinterpreting him. My partner and I founded our relationship on communication as an absolutely essential requirement, and I know I chose him not least because we were able to quickly "cut to the chase", and come to resolution on issues or feelings where we weren't in total agreement. But even after 9 years of living together, it is still necessary to check in once in a while, or ask for clarification, even though we often can finish each other's sentences. So I think it is entirely unrealistic to expect Jack to be able to "read" Ennis this perfectly after the short period of time they had actually had to be together. Love can conquer all, but it does take work-trite I know but nevertheless true. 

[boots]

If (this were another movie!) Jack had responded to Ennis's opening up of his feelings, Ennis then might have been able to communicate his fears in a different way, one which may have allowed Jack to suggest that there could be some possibilities, while still recognizing Ennis's fear.


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"They were raised on small, poor ranches on opposite corners of the state...both high school dropout country boys with no prospects, brought up to hard work and privation, both rough-mannered, rough-spoken, inured to the stoic life."  --Brokeback Mountain, Annie Proulx

It says it all there.  Jack has no greater handle on articulating and processing his love of Ennis.  Sure, Ennis is more shut down, fearful, closed like a clam.  Jack is more passionate, braver, willing to risk.  But each character is groping here.  Each is beautifully flawed and wonderfully representative of so many people.   

What is beautiful and terribly tragic is that these two characters are just beginning to open the door to love, to the greater risks that real love requires and the grace it affords.  They get close but never make it.  Society hadn't given them the venue, path or language to get there, to find it, but here they are, groping for intimacy and understanding in the dark on a cold mountainside.  They are explorers, then, with the deck stacked against them. 

As hard as it is to accept, I know any other depiction of what happened would hurt the story.  We want them to be together, to wake up, to endure.  But they cannot.  It just wouldn't work, given the time and place and the two men's stories.  We ache because we see the real tragedy in not recognizing earlier that all beings want happiness and love...acceptance.  The culture and parents, the men themselves...they are shut off from one another, little islands, some unaware that they desperately want to realize the undeniable interconnection of all things.

Ennis is happy in that scene and sends up a prayer of thanks.  It's the best he can do.  And Jack is at his best when he tries to convince himself that it could always be like this.  They are pioneers in the risky game of love.  We're talking on the level of Romeo and Juliet here.

[karind1]

We ache because we see the real tragedy in not recognizing earlier that all beings want happiness and love...acceptance.    wow that is profound to me.  that is all I EVER wanted-and then would push it away.  still do--i am 58 time is a ticking.  i had a tortured childhood emotionally.  stayed with me-got past a lot-but hope before I die I accomplish the above.

[CherryCake]

We ache because we see the real tragedy in not recognizing earlier that all beings want happiness and love...acceptance.    wow that is profound to me.  that is all I EVER wanted-and then would push it away.  still do--i am 58 time is a ticking.  i had a tortured childhood emotionally.  stayed with me-got past a lot-but hope before I die I accomplish the above.

*huggs Karind1*

so true, sister, so true.
And throught all this, I think it the tough times help us recognize and appreciate works of art like BBM.. it touches something...

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

So far I've read some interesting commentary on this topic.  I hope my point of view doesn't appear short-sighted...

If Jack actually missed an opportunity to understand Ennis's true feelings during these noted scenes, it does not surprise me.  We are looking at two male characters who grew up during a time period when men where perhaps not as skilled in communicating with others as they are becoming now. It wasn't uncommon for men to take a remark or gesture at face value.

In hetero relationships women were (and still are) often frustrated because men were not able to look beyond the surface and understand what they were really feeling.  The fact that our two characters are men wouldn't make that level of communication any simpler.  Ennis and Jack never spent the necessary time together needed to nurture a level of communication where they could really be in touch with the other's feelings.

If the setting for this type of film took place after the mid-eighties, I would probably expect a more sensitive level of communication between two lovers.  Since this all began in 1963, I have a hard time expecting more.

[Jack_ME]

I think Jack "got" the prayer of thanks bit, cause he launches right into "it could be like this..."

Toadlily,
I acknowledged that Jack got the meaning, but it was not immediate, he only got it on a second take after the joke about the harmonica. The point I was trying to bring out, is that very rarely, unless it is anger (and violent anger) does Ennis express his feelings as he is experiencing them, and to me this incident was one of two points where Ennis DID attempt to express his feelings...but still in guarded ways. And what I was saying, in the vein of speculative discussion as we have all done so much of regarding these two guys's personalities, is that both times Jack missed the opportunity by focusing instead on the literal words and not the idea/feelings behind the words.

After all, communication IS ideas, words are only the tools we use to get our idea out of our head and into someone else's where they can understand it.

 I'm not saying Jack was wrong....after all HE is who he is as Ennis is who HE is....I'm just trying to bring out that we have a character, a personality who has trouble expressing his feelings, and there were these two points where he did express his feelings, albeit, in the first it was through the symbol of being short changed money, when he really was being short changed time that he had expected to spend with Jack

So my point was, how could it have been different for the two within their relationship, if on that first occasion Jack had understood, and empathized about the short change of TIME together, and on the second, if he had again IMMEDIATELY empathized about being thankful for finding each other again.

Could not the first incident have led to making some form of plan to meet up again, and a more tender parting, instead of a fist fight and awkward mumbling parting which left Jack crying as he drove away, and Ennis smashing his fist into a cement wall.

And on this second occasion, at the first reunion, had Jack immediately responded and empathized with a corroborative "thank Heaven from me too" or "isn't it great we could find each other" or some other immediate acknowledgment of Ennis's feelings AT THAT MOMENT when Ennis expressed them, possibly Ennis might have opened up a bit more, possibly he and Jack might have had more real communication at that moment. So that, as I said in my first post, the trauma memory of his youth might have been able to be slightly countered by possibility or the hope of possibility of some other type of future. To me, once the little moment passed, Ennis immediately retreated to his usual place of not expressing himself, by him making the joke, then he was back into that armored place he knew so well, and so when the idea of a future together comes up, it's out of the question because he's closed up tight again into his protected place, and he's just reporting that it's a fact that they two will never live together because he knows what will happen. NO possibility of it EVER being any different. I'm suggesting that if Jack had heard and responded immediately to Ennis's little opening up of his true feelings, Ennis might have been able to hear a little that there could be some possibility somehow someway, where a life together wouldn't HAVE to end up as he believed it would, based on his childhood trauma.

This is all just my speculation on the personalities, but I do think that these two incidents are there in the movie as examples of some little time when Ennis tried to express his true feelings, as he was experiencing them, and which was NOT anger which he had no trouble expressing as he experienced it.

Jack in Maine

[ethan]

Great discussion, thanks. I am moving this topic to "Characters, Quotes and Scenes"

[Jack_ME]

I would allow Jack to have feelings, insecurities, desires to be loved and fears that his love and desire are not reciprocated. Reading what you wrote, Jack_ME, makes me wonder why Ennis has to be so artfully interpreted and his inability to articulate what he means or wants directly (but doing so indirectly--I agree with you here) so easily made Jack's problem...why Ennis, trauma victim though he certainly is, is so poorly served by Jack in these instances.

Aren't there two people here working something out, or not working it out very well? Like Jack doesn't have a history of trauma (brought out big-time in the story, with his father pissing all over him when he was a kid) as well as Ennis? This reminds me of the expectation that women reaching for better communication with male partners afraid of soft feelings often get abused in some way and blamed by the abuser for the abuse. What's up with this?

I love Ennis, his masked tenderness, his struggle with fear, his holding on to what he can because he knows no other way. It is a beautiful rendition of how a human heart can still flood with love even if cramped by life. It's too easy to hold Jack responsible for not healing Ennis by reading him correctly and offering him corrective experiences to overcome trauma. He most surely is not responsible in this way. When he offered money, it might also be seen as a way of making a connection, as a way of saying "It's all right, you don't have to face this alone, I'll help." When he asked "For what?", it might also be seen as a way of drawing Ennis out, of giving him a chance to open up. Calling the question and the manner of asking it cavalier automatically dismisses any positive intent.

Can both be struggling humans?

jr, of course they are both struggling humans. And in no way do I intend that Jack was wrong..Jack was Jack. My point was an attempt to say that here was a moment when Ennis opened up his true feelings, and HAD Jack been more in sync with Ennis at that moment, how could that have made things different. From my point of view as a film watcher, it was obvious to me what Ennis's prayer thanking heaven was really for. So since I got it as a film watcher, Jack's response "For what?" was cavalier. As I recall it, that simple question was not asked in a soft entreating tone, which might indicate he was inviting Ennis to open up and say more, but rather in a quick and abrupt manner even with a slightly sarcastic overtone. "For WHAT???"  What you say is true of course. it is never anyone's responsibility to do the work of the other in communication, and if I say one thing, and you hear another, it is not my fault, any more than it is yours that we haven't communicated. But if I know, and you know, that we sometimes have trouble with the words we each choose when we attempt to communicate, then wouldn't we each try to consider those words a little more carefully? Picking words, or describing words, a little more fully in an attempt to be clearer to the other so that we might actually get our ideas across? I think we would.

So all I'm saying is the two men weren't speaking the same language at these two moments. One was expressing feelings, and the other was hearing words. No one's fault no one's responsibility. Just a "what if" Jack had heard the feelings, and not the words only. I could as easily say, what if Ennis had said out right what he felt instead of retreating to a joke about the harmonica. I'm sure if he had, then Jack would have responded to that, but Ennis's personality isn't capable of expressing his feelings. And Jack in these instances wasn't being very intuitive. No fault, just fact.

Jack in Maine

[Jack_ME]

I'm also struck by our expectations that Jack is supposed to be so skillful in reading Ennis's thoughts. In asking what Ennis was thankful for, maybe he was just expressing his need to hear Ennis say it out loud, to make sure he wasn't misinterpreting him. My partner and I founded our relationship on communication as an absolutely essential requirement, and I know I chose him not least because we were able to quickly "cut to the chase", and come to resolution on issues or feelings where we weren't in total agreement. But even after 9 years of living together, it is still necessary to check in once in a while, or ask for clarification, even though we often can finish each other's sentences. So I think it is entirely unrealistic to expect Jack to be able to "read" Ennis this perfectly after the short period of time they had actually had to be together. Love can conquer all, but it does take work-trite I know but nevertheless true. 

proulxfan,
I don't mean to imply that Jack is supposed to read Ennis's thoughts let alone be skillful at it. I am just observing the situation, and stating that I believe this was one of the very rare moments when Ennis actually was expressing his feelings.

As for asking what ifs about Jack's behavior, prior to this scene they have spent some time together, specifically in the motel (as well as at breakfast and on the ride up...and they DID have that first Brokeback Summer together in their past), and in that motel scene Jack is very open about expressing his feelings, and he asks Ennis how he feels...and Ennis grunts a couple times and says the word Me? and that's it.

I think that for someone who could more easily express his feelings as Jack did, and presumably can do again , it's not unreasonable to say that Jack knew that Ennis didn't/couldn't express his own feelings in clear obvious words. I think being able to express one's feelings automatically makes one more aware OF feelings, and so much better equipped to read the coded ways in which an other who can NOT so easily express himself in words, does still sometime attempt to express his feelings in other ways.

This still doesn't mean I feel Jack had any RESPONSIBILITY to do that, or that he was wrong for not doing it. As I said, Jack is who Jack is, and Ennis is who Ennis is, but I say, what if...........how could that then.....maybe....might have.....etc.

Jack in Maine

[jrfh50]

So all I'm saying is the two men weren't speaking the same language at these two moments. One was expressing feelings, and the other was hearing words. No one's fault no one's responsibility. Just a "what if" Jack had heard the feelings, and not the words only. I could as easily say, what if Ennis had said out right what he felt instead of retreating to a joke about the harmonica. I'm sure if he had, then Jack would have responded to that, but Ennis's personality isn't capable of expressing his feelings. And Jack in these instances wasn't being very intuitive. No fault, just fact.

Jack in Maine

Jack your point these points in the film, taken completely as isolated incidents, is spot on. I urge you to view the film (disregarding any text, as your philosophy indicates) and find a number of incidents when the feeling tone and nuance of Jack, the openness of his face and body, etc. are not taken in or responded to by Ennis, merely the words. Tell me then, please, at those points, that the ensuing situation might have been radically different had Ennis at those precise moments responded to and with feelings. And then, please, explain to me why even a person with trauma  couldn't have taken the leap, as others on the Board have held out for Ennis to do, and risked intimacy. I think it's important not to give this construct 'trauma' such power over interactive potential.

[Jack_ME]

Jack your point these points in the film, taken completely as isolated incidents, is spot on. I urge you to view the film (disregarding any text, as your philosophy indicates) and find a number of incidents when the feeling tone and nuance of Jack, the openness of his face and body, etc. are not taken in or responded to by Ennis, merely the words. Tell me then, please, at those points, that the ensuing situation might have been radically different had Ennis at those precise moments responded to and with feelings. And then, please, explain to me why even a person with trauma  couldn't have taken the leap, as others on the Board have held out for Ennis to do, and risked intimacy. I think it's important not to give this construct trauma such power over interactive potential.

jr, I appreciate your response, thanks.

I surely will enjoy the film again (next scheduled for this Friday), and will make an attempt of focus on Jack and look for these incidents as you request.

But before even doing that I guess I should state that in my view (and it's certainly not a unique viewpoint, in fact I would venture to say it's the majority viewpoint of BBM lovers)....as I say, in my view we have two people with differing personality types.

One, Ennis, is very very introverted and quite incapable of expressing into words any of his emotions, other than anger, which he can do, and does do rather frequently. He can and does do that because anger is aggressive and so it feels like it does not make one vulnerable, especially as Ennis displays it which is usually with physical violence explicit or implicit.  Ennis is closed and defensive and protective of his deep inner self. This is a result of the loss and loneliness he has experienced, which his personality was not able to overcome, only compensate for through the defensive creation of internal walls against more hurt from loss and loneliness. If he doesn't open up his feelings and make himself vulnerable, he can't be hurt again (or so this type believes, while not realizing that this posture also deprives them of many positive opportunities wherein he might feel connected, and loved, and benefit from all the positive nurturing results of that.)

The other type, Jack, is extroverted. Although he feels loneliness in his life too, he can more easily put himself in situations with others, in an attempt to alleviate that loneliness. And he is also more capable and comfortable opening up and expressing his emotions, and he does that in many ways, not just in a single restricted way like Ennis does. So he is already familiar, and comfortable with the language of emotion. He can do it, and so he can understand it, and he can hear it from others. It's not a foreign language to him, whereas to Ennis it is a foreign language.

So, if two people who speak different languages are attempting to communicate, they need to find some common points to begin and build on. It does no good for each to sit stock still and simply repeat over and over the same foregin words. They gesture, they indicate, they search for similar words, or variations on the words. And they listen to the other's response and from that they can recognize if some word or part of word has gotten over and been understood. Say in this example, one person speaks French fluently, and knows a tiny smattering of German words as well.  If he's trying to communicate to a German who knows no French at all, even though it is French he is fluent in, if he is truly attempting to communicate, he will use his limited German vocabulary to try to build a common base for gradually increased understanding between the two. In this case, if he truly wishes to communicate, it is this fellow's responsibility to utilize what he already knows.

So using that example above as an analogy, Jack understands and can express emotions more easily than Ennis can. Therefore, it falls to Jack to utilize that knowledge he has of emotional expression, and watch for it and respond to it when he sees it, because he can! Of course there is no right or wrong here. All I'm saying is that when one person is closed up, and the other is not, it naturally falls on the one who is open to encourage and draw out the other closed up person, IF communication is the goal. If the situation were reversed for some reason and under different circumstances, and the point was to try to get the more expressive one to learn to be less expressive, say to learn to recognize that it was not always appropriate or the right time to express his feelings, then the reverse would be true and the one who understood that would have a responsibility to teach/convey that to the other.

In this case, we know Jack can and has expressed his feelings about the relationship. From the motel scene and what he says there. Here in this scene we have Ennis opening up. IF Jack had picked up on it immediately, by affirming Ennis's expression of his feelings, Ennis might have left the door open a crack for more input, at that moment. If Ennis was to go into therapy, then his therapist could instruct him over time, etc, but in the real world, JUST THE FACT that he opened a bit by verbalizing that he was offering up a prayer of thanks, is a risky behavior for one so guarded. He stuck a toe out, and had Jack been there immediately and held the door open, Ennis might have stuck a foot out! But not getting that immediate recognition from Jack, Ennis pulled his toe in and closed the door quickly.

And no blame or fault to either. Just a potential that was missed.  Really all this chat of mine was simply to try to put out there that Ennis did open up twice, but Jack didn't recognize that in time to encourage more. I really wanted to get the point across that by focusing on the "joke", we may have missed that Ennis had attempted to express his real inner feelings, however fleetingly.

I love Ennis and I love Jack. This is a marvelously wonderful movie.  A true masterpiece. How else could we all speak of these characters with such depth and such intricacies as if they were the living breathing beings they are to so many, if not all, of us.

Jack in Maine

[n061857]

This is kind of off the debate.  But when Ennis makes this little joke about the harmonica, did anyone notice the twinkle in Ennis's eyes?  It reminded me of a gum commercial that is supposed to leave your mouth minty fresh and the mouth actually twinkles.  This is what I see in Ennis's eyes.  It's priceless.

Actually with all that repression I am surprised at how much Ennis opens up to Jack.  It just emphasizes the depth of his love.  It is Ennis who approaches Jack in the second tent scene, Ennis who walks up to Jack to discuss their relationship, "a one shot deal",  Ennis who admits he felt violently ill and took a year for him to realize he should have never let Jack go,  Ennis who passionately kisses Jack in plain sight at their first rerunion, Ennis who asks about the effect of their relationship on other relationships, Ennis who devulges his feelings of paranoia about being gay.

Sure, Jack was the one who had the idealistic views of life together,  but I felt that Ennis discussed other feelings he had more readily.   It made me proud of him.                                   - Nancy

[shieldmaid]

Actually with all that repression I am surprised at how much Ennis opens up to Jack.  It just emphasizes the depth of his love.  It is Ennis who approaches Jack in the second tent scene, Ennis who walks up to Jack to discuss their relationship, "a one shot deal",  Ennis who admits he felt violently ill and took a year for him to realize he should have never let Jack go,  Ennis who passionately kisses Jack in plain sight at their first rerunion, Ennis who asks about the effect of their relationship on other relationships, Ennis who devulges his feelings of paranoia about being gay.

Sure, Jack was the one who had the idealistic views of life together,  but I felt that Ennis discussed other feelings he had more readily.   It made me proud of him.                                   - Nancy

These are great points--I love this thread.  And I can't help wondering, after reading everyone's responses: maybe Jack just really wanted to hear Ennis acknowledge his love out loud when they're camping out at their first reunion?  Maybe he really understood/knew what Ennis was referring to all along, but wanted more than anything just to hear it.  After all, Ennis had been unable to tell him directly why he was sitting alone on the hillside instead of helping to pack up gear just before they went down the mountain that first summer--now Jack wanted to hear him state his love and pain.

peace--

[n061857]

I felt that when Jack said, "For what?" when Ennis was looking up at the heavens,  that he wanted desperately for Ennis to confess his love.   Although Ennis's response was adorable, I don't think it was what Jack was looking for. 

[*Froggy*]

I felt that when Jack said, "For what?" when Ennis was looking up at the heavens,  that he wanted desperately for Ennis to confess his love.   Although Ennis's response was adorable, I don't think it was what Jack was looking for. 

yep...  :-[

Adorable, yet not enough x

[boots]

I felt that when Jack said, "For what?" when Ennis was looking up at the heavens,  that he wanted desperately for Ennis to confess his love.   Although Ennis's response was adorable, I don't think it was what Jack was looking for. 

yep...  :-[

Adorable, yet not enough x

Agreed.  Somehow some of us men miss the moment. 

Later it hits like, "Oh, sh**t!  I shoulda said,  'I'm sending up a prayer of thanks that you called, that you walked back into my life.  That we even crossed paths in the first place.  You've changed my life!'"   

What Ennis has taught me is to be more forthright in sharing my feelings, to move forward and not fear the risk of intimacy.  It's so incredible to me that a man who doesn't even exist has had such a powerful influence on me!

[n061857]

I'm with you.  Hopefully we have all learned something from this.

You mean he doesn't exist?  You just blew me out of the water!!!!!!!!!!  Ha! Ha!             

[cara1158]

I felt that when Jack said, "For what?" when Ennis was looking up at the heavens,  that he wanted desperately for Ennis to confess his love.   Although Ennis's response was adorable, I don't think it was what Jack was looking for. 

I think this is true of both of them.  When I see this scene, I always think that Ennis is so so soooo happy to be with Jack...he's sending up thanks for bringing Jack back to him.  But when the moment comes, when Jack asks "for what?" Ennis can't say it out loud to him, it would be too soul-baring and vulnerable to tell Jack exactly how he's feeling... so instead he makes a joke of it. 

Jack wants to hear it... Ennis wants to say it... both of them disappointed... BUT, having said that, I also think Jack "gets it" -- I think on some level he knows that Ennis is making a joke to cover his true feelings.

[n061857]

I think he gets it too, because doesn't he follow it up with a suggestion of a future together or telling Ennis how much he misses him?

[NoReins]

Another thread that I reckon bears dragging back up for the benefit of us newbies on the forum.

I've finally seen this whole scene again on youtube and I think there's a lot of merit in all the views expressed here. When Jack asks "For what?" there's definitely a hopeful tone to his voice, a real desire for Ennis to say something - anything - that will confirm the feelings that Jack already knows are there. But then, Ennis is Ennis and he just can't say the words, no matter how much he wants to so he jokes instead. There's a twinkle in his eye when he makes the joke, though, and there's no doubt that Jack would have picked up on that and known what Ennis really meant, especially as he goes straight into the "You know it could be like this.." speech.

You really have to admire Jack's persistance in trying to get Ennis to tell him how he feels - he never really gives up, throughout their years together. Ennis is never afraid to show his love physically, and I'm sure that Jack always knew how to read the looks and mumblings, but it would have been nice if Ennis had said it - even once. The closest he ever comes is with "Jack, I swear..." but that's another discussion.

[xvbbJ]

Ennis is never afraid to show his love physically, and I'm sure that Jack always knew how to read the looks and mumblings, but it would have been nice if Ennis had said it - even once. The closest he ever comes is with "Jack, I swear..." but that's another discussion.

Yeah, didn't he say it... And wasn't it like - shocking. It seemed like it poured out of him, all the things in that "Jack, I swear..." he never wanted to say. But it was just too late.

[ksxks]

Jack: Anything interesting up there in heaven?

Ennis: I was just sending up a prayer of thanks. 

Jack: For what?

Ennis: For you forgettin to bring that harmonica. I'm enjoyin the peace and quiet.







I haven't seen this discussed anywhere (or can't find it if it has):

Everytime I watch this scene where Jack asks:Anything interesting up there in heaven?

and then Ennis replies: I was just sending up a prayer of thanks.

I believe that Ennis was very happy, but serious, and had Jack responded with a knowing agreement, Ennis would have said what he really was thanking Heaven for........namely being there with Jack again after 4 long years of separation, and no doubt believing during those 4  years that he would never see Jack again, let alone be with him again at their special place.

I feel it is Jack's responding with a (ignorant of what Ennis is truly thankful for) cavelier: For what?

(like he did with his offer of money, when Ennis was actually expressing his great disappointment about leaving Jack and the Summer of Brokeback in the only way he (Ennis) could at that time, namely by saying they were getting short-changed a month of pay. That response that Summer, sent Ennis off to first sit on a stump and beat a stick against the ground, then go off and sit and pout on the hillside. Jack didn't get Ennis's attempt to express his anger and disappointment at being forced to change their happy loving environment, and instead he (Jack) just took what Ennis said litterally and missed the true meaning of Ennis's communication.)

And so again this time at the fireside reunion Brokeback, Jack misses what Ennis is really expressing. But since Ennis is so happy likely with a week being together still ahead of them, he is able to deflect his true thoughts and true prayer of thanks into a little joke, since Jack had been oblivious to what should have been so obvious after Ennis said he was sending a prayer of thanks.

From the first viewing of the film this is what I heard. When Jack responds with his: For What? I couldn't believe it! It really seemed so obvious to me that Ennis was thanking Heaven for allowing them to be together again. But Jack missed it, so Ennis lets it be light and makes a joke.


And because of that Ennis is again grounded in the present and separated from his moment of feeling, so that when after that, Jack does seem to get it and says: You know, it could be like this. Just like this, always

Ennis says: Yeah? How you figure that?

And then we are led into the horrible trauma memory.

If (this were another movie!) Jack had responded to Ennis's opening up of his feelings, Ennis then might have been able to communicate his fears in a different way, one which may have allowed Jack to suggest that there could be some possibilities, while still recognizing Ennis's fear.

Did anyone else feel the point of that scene was missed by Jack? And by us in focusing on the joke about the harmonica?

Jack in Maine

Jack -- very strongly I felt that, each viewing.  We knew what Ennis was really thankful for, but couldn't say it -- difficult as it is to express himself -- without Jack's having given him more of a clear opening.  Then, the tables get turned, as you said -- very perceptive.  When Jack expresses a beautiful togetherness sentiment, Ennis then makes it all depressing.  And by the way, that smile on Ennis's face as he's lying there, after he says that, is the most beautiful Ennis face -- it just stops my heart.  (Not the smile when Jack's clowning around like he's rodeoing; this one is like the most pure happiness we ever see in him.  But then, we don't see him when they're making love...

ks

[Jack_ME]

Jack -- very strongly I felt that, each viewing.  We knew what Ennis was really thankful for, but couldn't say it -- difficult as it is to express himself -- without Jack's having given him more of a clear opening.  Then, the tables get turned, as you said -- very perceptive.  When Jack expresses a beautiful togetherness sentiment, Ennis then makes it all depressing.  And by the way, that smile on Ennis's face as he's lying there, after he says that, is the most beautiful Ennis face -- it just stops my heart.  (Not the smile when Jack's clowning around like he's rodeoing; this one is like the most pure happiness we ever see in him.  But then, we don't see him when they're making love...

ks

[/color]


Yeah "ks" it is a beautiful happy expression.

And like their whole relationship, it's too short, too quickly gone.

When I first saw that scene in the film, I really did feel I knew what Ennis was thankful for, and I actually expected his statement to get picked up right away by Jack, and I expected a real tender scene, a positive scene expressing their relationship or their feelings one for the other. As a film, that would have been the more predictable segue, and part of what has made this film so powerful, is Ang Lee's direction and editing, so that, most scenes are cut short, and there is little in the way of predictable customary film vocabulary. This is not a criticism of the film at all. It's a great film. Just emotionally speaking, at that point in the film, in my first viewing, that is what other film's had taught me to expect next and I was looking forward to it. I suppose my surprise and disappointment is what made me so analytical about that little exchange between the two.

Thanks for commenting "ks" and providing me another opportunity to think and express.

Jack in Maine

[MississaugaRed]

Once again, so much more than meets the eye!  Wow. This has been a very interesting thread to read, because honestly, all the times I've seen BBM it had never even occured to me that maybe this was a missed opportunity for a deeper, verbal exchange of what they were feeling.  Or that maybe this time it might have been Ennis who wanted to say more, if the groundwork had been laid right by Jack.  Will have to look for that next time, see if I get a change of perspective.

It's very true that this is one of those few moments that WE are given to maybe witness them speaking of their feelings.  As you've all noted, there are other missed chances before or after this, but since this was also one of the few points where they could have changed the course of their lives, it does really stand out.  And it hurts us because that doesn't happen.  As Jack_ME says, we're left with "what if ..",  "maybe ... "  "might have... "  "sigh".

I guess for the moment, personally, I too think that Jack is very much aware of what is really going on in Ennis's mind.  He opens up the opportunity for conversation by asking Ennis if there is anything interesting up there in heaven.  And even though Ennis makes it into an inside joke (they were always kidding about that harmonic on Brokeback, so sweet) Jack surely knew what that answer was really covering up.

"for you forgetting to bring that harmonica" translates to "for you being here".

And on a lighter note, (it's not my intention to offend anyone here joking about this important scene but ...) when Jack says "you know it can be like this, just like this, always" we all know he's talking about them being together, not that they will always be "harmonica free".   Although, maybe Ennis is hoping for that, too.   

You know, I just realized, these boys make it interesting for us because even when they are talking, we still wonder about what  they are really saying . 

I was right there with you, Jack_ME, that first time I saw BBM, 'cause I was waiting for the guys to actually SAY more about their feelings for each other in this scene, not just with  looks, touches, body language.  But being who they were, I guess I can admit now that I had an unreasonable expectation, based on MY needs.  Didn't stop me from being disaapointed, though.

Sorry to ramble on .. looking forward to reading more about how the rest of you feel about the possibilities in this scene.  Great posts!

[tpe]

You know, I just realized, these boys make it interesting for us because even when they are talking, we still wonder about what  they are really saying . 

This is just too close to the heart of it all. 

And as you said, the beauty of this scene is that it can be interpreted in many levels -- light and deep.

Thank you.

[Jack_ME]

...snip...I guess for the moment, personally, I too think that Jack is very much aware of what is really going on in Ennis's mind.  He opens up the opportunity for conversation by asking Ennis if there is anything interesting up there in heaven.  And even though Ennis makes it into an inside joke (they were always kidding about that harmonic on Brokeback, so sweet) Jack surely knew what that answer was really covering up.

"for you forgetting to bring that harmonica" translates to "for you being here".

....snip....when Jack says "you know it can be like this, just like this, always" we all know he's talking about them being together, not that they will always be "harmonica free".    Although, maybe Ennis is hoping for that, too.   

...snip...

[/color]

Hi red! Thanks for your input.

Just to clarify, as some seem to have responded as if I were and I'm not at all trying to fault Jack, meaning I'm not trying to say he did something wrong 'cuz after all, he just did what he did. That's part of his character which is also the sub-text of my comments.  I'm just focusing on the "what if...." based on what I saw as a missed opportunity when on one of the rare occasions Ennis had started to open up and express his feelings verbally. You here, and others before, use what happens AFTERWARD, to explain and interpret what happened first. Just for the sake of this discussion, I'm making a point which some might see as simply playing with words, but that's not what I'm intending to do.

Compare Jack's personality, his reaction, in this scene FROM THE FIRST OF IT, (Ennis staring up, Jack says....Ennis says...offering prayer of thanks...) to the short scene when Jack was the one up on the mountain tending the sheep, and he spied and shot at the coyote. If you recall that coyote scene, what you see is a guy who spies a coyote and instantly brings his rifle up and practically pulls the trigger before the gun has even stopped moving....and in fact, if he thought he was aiming, he didn't do a very good job, because not only did he not kill the coyote, he didn't even hit it. Missed by a mile, because his impulse was to act instantly, not carefully take aim, get a bead on the animal, and gently squeeze the trigger and kill it. Now think of Ennis when he shot the elk. Very slow, very deliberate, careful aim, no rush, and bullseye! Down comes the elk.

Now think of the campfire scene again and compare their respective behaviors.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that once Jack "missed the coyote" i.e. said "For what?"......he then realized what Ennis had really been saying, and so THEN after that realization (after he had "missed the coyote") tried to pick up on Ennis's original mood and thought. But it was too late. As so often in the film (think of the post Alma divorce), Jack reacts quickly and impulsively. And sometimes, he misses his mark because of that.

This is part of Jack's personality, and is one of the ways in which the two boys differ.

It's so wonderful to able to examine and dissect these screen characters to such a degree. I can't think of very many other films (off the top of my head none!) where the characters had such fully developed personalities that we can do this with their screen characters!

What a treasure we have in this film. And what a wonderful gift Annie Proulx gave the world with her story that inspired this film.

Jack in Maine