Author Topic: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?  (Read 107154 times)

Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?
« Reply #150 on: Aug 29, 2008, 08:20 AM »
wonderfully stated thomas!

Thanks Matt. :)

      Id like to add most men I have know haven't used them three words.  I think "I love you" for many men round these parts at least would be to revealing and castratin if shot down, affections not returned.  The good ones will work like a horse to prove they do.  But them words.  What is it about them words.

I think it's because a lot of men think that it puts them in a position of emotional vulnerability.  Many don't appreciate their being vulnerable on that score.


Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?
« Reply #151 on: Aug 29, 2008, 11:12 AM »
Thanks Matt. :)

I think it's because a lot of men think that it puts them in a position of emotional vulnerability.  Many don't appreciate their being vulnerable on that score.

Yes,I agree again,Thomas¡ It's the still"unhealed" fear of many man to look like women,being too vulnerable,showing too much their innest feelings like a broken shield.And in Ennis and Jack's case,more still,because-I'm quoting myself,sorry...-it would be an further step that perhaps they weren't prepared to give.
« Last Edit: Aug 31, 2008, 12:38 PM by myprivatejack »
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline smartestsonia

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Re: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?
« Reply #152 on: Aug 31, 2008, 03:10 AM »
I know what you mean,since I'm also a very verbally expressive and sincere person; and this kind of people often need to hear what they already know-or they should know...-with acts and gestures,no?.But you're right in that we need to see things from Ennis and Jack's perspective,putting ourselves in their shoes according to their time and circumstances.IMO,to say "I love you" would have been for them as a further step,a kind of affirmation,as Thomas says?.It would surely have been,as it's for us when we need to hear it,as I said before.And Ennis specially wasn't prepared to admit all what there's behind this phrase.They connected,yes,but they had very often an undeniable and unbearable lack of verbal communication,and we have plenty of examples.
true...there was alot of silence between them...probably they kept it silent as the truth was too hurting to deal with...I mean they hardly met each other and could not give each other alot of time..then they were married and all...and so much had to be spoken..but they chose to supress al that and spend quality time together and keep their feelings alive

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?
« Reply #153 on: Aug 31, 2008, 11:28 AM »
wow, so much good stuff in this thread. thanks everyone...
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?
« Reply #154 on: Aug 31, 2008, 12:40 PM »
true...there was alot of silence between them...probably they kept it silent as the truth was too hurting to deal with...I mean they hardly met each other and could not give each other alot of time..then they were married and all...and so much had to be spoken..but they chose to supress al that and spend quality time together and keep their feelings alive
You're right. :)  When one doesn't have something to say,or telling the truth is too hard to listen to,is better to shut up...And even more when someone has so much to "say" with their silents,their glances and all their corporal language as Ennis and Jack.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline smartestsonia

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Re: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?
« Reply #155 on: Sep 01, 2008, 12:49 AM »
You're right. :)  When one doesn't have something to say,or telling the truth is too hard to listen to,is better to shut up...And even more when someone has so much to "say" with their silents,their glances and all their corporal language as Ennis and Jack.
Awwwwwww......I couldnt agree more ;D.....they had so much non verbal gestures to emote that the verbal language was just not appropriate for them.....so many ways they have conveyed to eacch other that they love each other....those actions and gestures have more love than any word

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?
« Reply #156 on: Sep 01, 2008, 10:36 AM »
Awwwwwww......I couldnt agree more ;D.....they had so much non verbal gestures to emote that the verbal language was just not appropriate for them.....so many ways they have conveyed to eacch other that they love each other....those actions and gestures have more love than any word

Thank you,dear¡  ^f^  I agree completely with you,specially in the phrase I've remarked.What I'add is that,unluckily,very often the love in their actions,gestures and glances didn't correspond itself with a verbal communication to put into words that love,and specially,what they were going to do with it. I don't know if this makes sense... ???
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline smartestsonia

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Re: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?
« Reply #157 on: Sep 02, 2008, 03:47 AM »
Thank you,dear¡  ^f^  I agree completely with you,specially in the phrase I've remarked.What I'add is that,unluckily,very often the love in their actions,gestures and glances didn't correspond itself with a verbal communication to put into words that love,and specially,what they were going to do with it. I don't know if this makes sense... ???
what I can imply with what u have said is that their non verbal gestures and actions could not get congrunet words..the words and actions dint go in one direction...they were poles apart...
even though actions speak volumes and did in their case I wish once they had a heart to heart talk ( not fight..what happened in the climax between them)...that would have made things more flexible.....

Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?
« Reply #158 on: Sep 02, 2008, 07:15 AM »
Yes,I agree again,Thomas¡ It's the still"unhealed" fear of many man to look like women,being too vulnerable,showing too much their innest feelings like a broken shield.And in Ennis and Jack's case,more still,because-I'm quoting myself,sorry...-it would be an further step that perhaps they weren't prepared to give.

Stereotypes of course loom large in BBM, no?  Especially with attitudes regarding love and friendship between men.  The social pressure to confrom was too strong then.  IN many ways, it still is.


Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?
« Reply #159 on: Sep 02, 2008, 10:43 AM »
what I can imply with what u have said is that their non verbal gestures and actions could not get congrunet words..the words and actions dint go in one direction...they were poles apart...
even though actions speak volumes and did in their case I wish once they had a heart to heart talk ( not fight..what happened in the climax between them)...that would have made things more flexible.....
They weren't 100% poles apart,but there was a real grasp between what their gestures,glances and actions said and what their words said...And I can't agree more with what you say that a heart to heart talk would have been very necessary between them in order to clarify things.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline smartestsonia

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Re: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?
« Reply #160 on: Sep 03, 2008, 01:06 AM »
They weren't 100% poles apart,but there was a real grasp between what their gestures,glances and actions said and what their words said...And I can't agree more with what you say that a heart to heart talk would have been very necessary between them in order to clarify things.
exactly....there was a slight gap between the words and actions...I guess we can learn that in our own lives we can aviod hurt by having a converstaion :)

Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?
« Reply #161 on: Sep 03, 2008, 07:06 AM »
The lack of words exchanged certainly bred miscommunication between them.  Their loss for words -- especially at critical moments -- was both a strength and a crippling weakness...

Offline smartestsonia

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Re: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?
« Reply #162 on: Sep 09, 2008, 01:28 AM »
the lack of words was a strength at the beginning when they had started falling in love and it was all new..that time their expressions and touch spoke volumes...when everything was getting a little complicated after 20 years..Ennis kids and wife., Jacks family and all, that time I felt they should have been more communicative and receptive because so much was happening in their lives and they needed each other..hoewever this lack of words made them supress so much of pain... :(

Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?
« Reply #163 on: Sep 09, 2008, 07:07 AM »
the lack of words was a strength at the beginning when they had started falling in love and it was all new..that time their expressions and touch spoke volumes...when everything was getting a little complicated after 20 years..Ennis kids and wife., Jacks family and all, that time I felt they should have been more communicative and receptive because so much was happening in their lives and they needed each other..hoewever this lack of words made them supress so much of pain... :(

I largely agree with your distinction, smartestsonia.  To be sure, I think the root of the problem was trying to evade the real issues.  This is in line with what I said elsewhere: that Jack should have perhaps been moere insistent or even confrontational in the later period.  Had he done the equivalent of grabbing Ennis's hand (as in the FNIT) would Ennis have seen the light, I wonder?


Offline smartestsonia

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Re: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?
« Reply #164 on: Sep 10, 2008, 01:56 AM »
I largely agree with your distinction, smartestsonia.  To be sure, I think the root of the problem was trying to evade the real issues.  This is in line with what I said elsewhere: that Jack should have perhaps been moere insistent or even confrontational in the later period.  Had he done the equivalent of grabbing Ennis's hand (as in the FNIT) would Ennis have seen the light, I wonder?


I think Jack was more insistent in the FNIT and ya in the early stage of their relationship when he wanted them to live togeter and all.....then both of them just let things be as it is after 4 years..both with their wives and kids and all and just meeting up once in a while on the mountain...the distance increased more after 10 years and they just let things be..I feel jack also was kinda scared of losing Ennis as he knew how scared Ennis was..so he just held on whatever he got....finally all the frustration of them being apart from so long came out when they fought at the end of the film and Jack said that he wish he could quit him....this is what happens when u supress feelings for long :(

Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?
« Reply #165 on: Sep 10, 2008, 07:40 AM »
If Jack never verbally said "I love you" to Ennis, it was most likely because he though it would have freaked him (Ennis) out.  This agrees with what you say -- that Jack was scared of losing Ennis, so he tried not to antagonize or disturb him in any way. Is this the general concensus?  And I suppose both of them would have thought such a declaration to be unbecoming -- perhaps effeminate?


Offline atalley

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Re: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?
« Reply #166 on: Sep 10, 2008, 09:48 AM »
If Jack never verbally said "I love you" to Ennis, it was most likely because he though it would have freaked him (Ennis) out.  This agrees with what you say -- that Jack was scared of losing Ennis, so he tried not to antagonize or disturb him in any way. Is this the general concensus?  And I suppose both of them would have thought such a declaration to be unbecoming -- perhaps effeminate?



Jack was always "walking on eggshells" with Ennis.  (Until the final confrontation).  I was so glad that he finally spoke up for himself.  I don't know that Jack would've had a problem with his declaration of love, but he knew that Ennis would for sure.

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?
« Reply #167 on: Sep 10, 2008, 10:19 AM »
If Jack never verbally said "I love you" to Ennis, it was most likely because he though it would have freaked him (Ennis) out.  This agrees with what you say -- that Jack was scared of losing Ennis, so he tried not to antagonize or disturb him in any way. Is this the general concensus?  And I suppose both of them would have thought such a declaration to be unbecoming -- perhaps effeminate?

Jack never said verbally "I love you" to Ennis,firstly because; did he need to say it?.Half his life had been a full love's declaration,with his gestures,his glances,HIS ACTIONS...And his "inactions" because,as in this case,everything he saved inside him was really in order not to scare Ennis,not to make him decide between two situations.They could make love,they could behave themselves like a real couple; but to say "I love you",right and short,was a further step that Ennis wasn't able to do,or wasn't willing to do,I really don't know what to say here...It's like the situation-beyond all the differences of course...- of "Maurice" co protagonist,Durham,who thought that love between two men should be emotional and romantic,including "I love yous",but never physical.Maybe it was too effeminate for him,yes,the same that speaking his feelings loud was for Ennis.
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?
« Reply #168 on: Sep 11, 2008, 08:05 AM »
But we know how lover are -- wnating to be reassured, if only verbally...

Do you remember the "violent" kiss in Maurice (the movie), and the resulting "rejection"?  This is the same danger one faces with a verbal declaration of love -- the danger of making oneself vulnerable.  Certainly, silence after such a declaration can be construed as to vagyue and/or enigmatic.  Such a declaration can be uncomfortable to both parties...

Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?
« Reply #169 on: Sep 11, 2008, 05:40 PM »
But we know how lover are -- wnating to be reassured, if only verbally...

Do you remember the "violent" kiss in Maurice (the movie), and the resulting "rejection"?  This is the same danger one faces with a verbal declaration of love -- the danger of making oneself vulnerable.  Certainly, silence after such a declaration can be construed as to vagyue and/or enigmatic.  Such a declaration can be uncomfortable to both parties...

Yes,Durham rejected Maurice's kiss because it made him feel vulnerable and uncomfortable; too physical...The same than a verbal declaration could make Ennis feel the same; too emotional,perhaps?...
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?
« Reply #170 on: Sep 12, 2008, 07:58 AM »
Yes,Durham rejected Maurice's kiss because it made him feel vulnerable and uncomfortable; too physical...The same than a verbal declaration could make Ennis feel the same; too emotional,perhaps?...

Too emotional -- and confrontational.  A kiss or a verbal communication hits us full in the face -- there is no way of ignoring it.  There is a cloudy comfort in vagueness or assumption -- and the raw reality can sometimes make us uncomfortable by its not wanting to be sidestepped.


Offline LauraLovesLedger

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Re: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?
« Reply #171 on: Sep 13, 2008, 08:45 PM »
If they'd uttered the little three words, I'm pretty sure they would come over as being superfluous, redundant...that is how palpable their love was...it was best left unsaid, no need to say it.  The lack of hearing it compounded the love, in my opinion.

Offline Matt Nasty

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Re: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?
« Reply #172 on: Sep 15, 2008, 08:12 AM »
If they'd uttered the little three words, I'm pretty sure they would come over as being superfluous, redundant...that is how palpable their love was...it was best left unsaid, no need to say it.  The lack of hearing it compounded the love, in my opinion.
quite possibly very true.:)

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?
« Reply #173 on: Sep 15, 2008, 09:25 AM »
If they'd uttered the little three words, I'm pretty sure they would come over as being superfluous, redundant...that is how palpable their love was...it was best left unsaid, no need to say it.  The lack of hearing it compounded the love, in my opinion.

Back in those early days, most guys simple don't say those three little words, not even to girl friends or wives. It just felt too deep. Even Jack, had to use euphemism one way or another, "I missed you so much I can hardly stand it" or "I redlined here all the way" or doing all the little things for twenty years.

Yeah, I think saying 'em words would be redundant, and superfluous. But d@#% it, I wish they did utter their love, openly and honestly. In many ways, the lack of the utterance was part of the hiding in the closet for Ennis. And the lack of it, always put doubts between them Jack never knew for sure what Ennis wanted, and Ennis never knew how deeply Jack loved him, until the two shirts in the closet. Yes, they knew there was something...no reins on this one, between them, but they didn't put a label on it, like tpe often said. And sometimes, having a label on things, helps to rein it in, and make it more real.

Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?
« Reply #174 on: Sep 16, 2008, 08:18 AM »
If they'd uttered the little three words, I'm pretty sure they would come over as being superfluous, redundant...that is how palpable their love was...it was best left unsaid, no need to say it.  The lack of hearing it compounded the love, in my opinion.

Yes, words in the end would have been quite superfluous -- a needless luxury.  Less is indeed more.


Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?
« Reply #175 on: Sep 16, 2008, 09:57 AM »
Words had been superfluous when speaking about love in a more direct way refers; a greater quantity of words,however,had been rather necessary in their case speaking about a solution for their common future.This,for me,has been a main love's declaration in its moment than a thousand "I love yous".
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?
« Reply #176 on: Sep 17, 2008, 09:09 AM »
Words had been superfluous when speaking about love in a more direct way refers; a greater quantity of words,however,had been rather necessary in their case speaking about a solution for their common future.This,for me,has been a main love's declaration in its moment than a thousand "I love yous".

Words become superfluous if there is a clear and abiding understanding/connection between the two.  But in other aspects, there was confusion.  They were sure of each other's love, I think.  But words would have helped in clearing the air around the peripheral issues -- like how best to live in that love.


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Re: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?
« Reply #177 on: Sep 17, 2008, 11:50 AM »
Words become superfluous if there is a clear and abiding understanding/connection between the two.  But in other aspects, there was confusion.  They were sure of each other's love, I think.  But words would have helped in clearing the air around the peripheral issues -- like how best to live in that love.



Yeah, Thomas. Words are still necessary; that's why they exist, and that's why we, human beings, are on top of the evolution's pyramid...Words make us more intelligent. We need them to understand lots of things and they are the most powerful way of communication, even more than touches, actions or glances.
Of course they knew they loved each other, but still words had helped a lot, because we are not fortuneteller so we can't know what is in another person's mind or heart...and sure Ennis had a lot of doubts about Jack's feelings or what he was thinking and vice versa. I think some words would have been useful...especially caring words..

Offline tpe

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Re: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?
« Reply #178 on: Sep 18, 2008, 08:10 AM »
Agreed Tammy.  People sometimes communicate their deepest thoughts and feelings without words -- this is certainly true in BBM.  But words can also express the deepest feelings and thoughts, if uttered from the heart, or from the depths of the mind.  Words are, after all, a vehicle by which we can deepen undstanding.  It is true that we need not understand something to appreciate it (who truly understands love?)  Still, understanding deepens one's appreciation, as much as it fosters it to grow and go forward.


Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Did Jack ever say 'I love you' to Ennis?
« Reply #179 on: Sep 18, 2008, 10:35 AM »
I agree too in that words are unnecessary when people "speak" with many other ways to express their love.You don't need to speak to express love,because it's said with heart,with feelings,and sometimes-unluckily,often...-this is all the contrary than speaking with the mind and with the intelligence.
Because intelligence precisely is what makes us different from other animals,sometimes is also necessary not to "speak" too much with our eyes or gestures,but with REAL WORDS.Sometimes you need to make your love grow,and it grows when all the difficulties are solved; and they're solved BY SPEAKING about the way you can solve them.If not,this love gets rotten from its beginnings...And in this sense,specially Jack didn't need to tell "I love you" to Ennis to show how much he loved him;but he needed to speak seriously about SOLUTIONS,not only feelings.This is very romantic,but very few practical,and you have a lot of proofs about it in their story.Or not? ???
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.