Topic: How old do you think Cassie is?

[chowhound]

I was wondering the other day of how much older than Cassie Ennis might be and what possible implications this age gap might have. When Ennis first meets her he is about 35.

It's a difficult question to answer with any certainty as we have little information about Cassie to go on. The screen play suggests "mid twenties", but, if that's the case, then for me she's at the earlier end of mid twenties, say 23 or 24, rather than at the later end. I say that because there seems to me to be a certain youthful naivete about her, as when she tries to establish a form of physical intimacy between the two of them when she asks for a foot rub from him. Clearly she has a lot of youthful energy about her. Even though she just finished her shift, she is keen to get dancing.

She is also young enough to want more from life than just being a waitress in a bar. The only indication we get is not from Cassie herself but from Ennis who tells Jack that Cassie "waitresses part-time, wants to go to nursing school". At least, that is how PSP (Published Screen Play) reads but this is one of the few points where FC (Final Cut) diverges from PSP. In FC Ennis says "Wants to go to nursing school - or somethin'". Those two little words are added, I think, not to suggest confusion on Cassie's part as to what she would like to do in the future but to suggest Ennis's complete indifference to what Cassie has been telling him about her plans or dreams.  He can't even remember clearly what she has told him. Was it nursing school she kept talking about? Or something else? Clearly Ennis hasn't even been listening to what she has to say. It's a small addition but, in its way, a very telling one. Whether this was done by Heath or Diana Ossama, who was on the set for much of the time, I've no idea.

The age gap between the two of them then could be around ten to twelve years and, while not impossible to bridge, might have had an impact on the the dynamics of their relationship.

So how old do people here think Cassie is and would any differences in age between Ennis and herself have had any effect on their relationship?

[Inner_Me]

Reading your post made me ask: "Did they even have a somewhat 'real' relationship?"

I know Ennis said that he had something going on with her, but we don't know any details about how deep his feelings for her are/were.

I also doubt that Cassie being around Ennis' age would have caused any differences in their "relationship".
Ennis himself has always been someone to never let his guard down, even during his marriage with Alma, he was too closed up.

Back 2 topic:
Hm, I always see Cassie as she was displayed in the movie (by beauty Linda Cardellini).
The way Cassie looked in the movie, I would say she was around 26.
She was pretty mature, the way she acted ("... don't fall in love with fun").

Interesting question by the way. Reminds me of the "First Wives Club" ("She's 16!"). 

[jackster]

CH: I think you're right on target with Cassie’s age. Interesting that this would make her about the same age as Ennis (and Jack) during the reunion in 1967 when they were showin’ plenty of spunk.

Personally can’t see that her age woulda’ made any difference in the outcome of her relationship with Ennis. Maybe in the way that it resolved itself, but not in the eventual breakup. Ennis knew by that time he “wasn’t the marrying kind” maybe he didn’t understand or accept why, but he knew it. If she had been older she may have pushed Ennis to understand himself more, like Alma did (“you didn’t go up there to fish”).

Great insight into the added “or sumthin’” – Ennis not able to focus on anything she’s sayin’. Would be interestin’ to know whose idea it was. Occurs to me that the fact that its nursing school, also throws it into a different light. That is, being something in the professional world, higher education, it’s completely alien to Ennis and his world. Maybe another reason for him to get away from her (if he needed it), didn’t need to be around a woman who was smarter than him, huh?

[chameau]

Linda Cardellini was born in June 1975 so at the time BBM was shot she was 29.  I always tough of Cassie being a 30ish woman, she maybe is a bit younger than Ennis but, IMO, was not some Spring fresh little chick.

The bar scene with Junior is telling more about a woman looking for a serious relationship and she obviously is interested in Ennis but she is fore sure not looking as a virgin...  Well, first bar scene with Ennis tells a lot about no virgin/innocent Cassie, isn't?

And the line ''girls don't fall in love with fun" can't come from a woman without no experience in man/woman relationship, huh?

So I'd say 30 some...

My 2 cents

[rimasworld]

Linda Cardellini was born in June 1975 so at the time BBM was shot she was 29.  I always tough of Cassie being a 30ish woman, she maybe is a bit younger than Ennis but, IMO, was not some Spring fresh little chick.

The bar scene with Junior is telling more about a woman looking for a serious relationship and she obviously is interested in Ennis but she is fore sure not looking as a virgin...  Well, first bar scene with Ennis tells a lot about no virgin/innocent Cassie, isn't?

And the line ''girls don't fall in love with fun" can't come from a woman without no experience in man/woman relationship, huh?

So I'd say 30 some...

My 2 cents

I agree, she seems older to me, tired of the bar work (she tells Ennis this when they first talk). She was very outgoing and bubbly and was drawn to the shy quiet Ennis. Seemed obvious she was looking for a serious relationship with him but unfortunately Ennis could never give her that, and poor Ennis ended up hurting her like he did with so many who loved him. I don't think he ever wanted to hurt anyone and it's so sad

[lancecowboy]

Interesting question and discussion fellas.

I don't think her age makes a bit of difference to Ennis. She ain't Jack. That's the problem.

Young woman can be wise, and old ducks can have spunk. I think Cassie is smart and spunky because she is a lot like Jack, with dreams of the future, and willing to go out and chase after them.

It's all speculation, of course.

I'd like to believe Heath came up with 'em two little words that injected so much meaningful subtext. That's his style, and we know for certain that he did that a lot, surprising the cast and crew. Like the time with the harmonica and Jake, the shirts and Diana. What the world of film lost that one January day. 

[myprivatejack]

I must confess that I have never thought about Cassie's age before,but I find it an interesting subject.IMO,yes,she's in her mid twenties,but closer to her thirties than to her twenties,around 28 years old.Of course,she has youth's energy but not only because a person at this age can perfectly have it still,the same than in their first thirties and older still-on the contrary,that someone at this ages could lose it would be horrible ¡-;but specially because I have also considered her as a female Jack,as someone said about her in another thread long time ago and now Lance has just repeated in the post above.
Both of them are persons full with vital energy and hopes and strength in changing their lives for good and sexually aggressive,always taking the initiative.Moreover,in Cassie's case,this is increased for the life she has and the way she is living it;her behaviour while flirting with Ennis reveals that she is accustomed to this from some years ago.Surely for this reason,she has became bored of this environment and wants to have more chances to ameliorate it;during all these years,she could have saved enough money to get it,what can be obtained for a slightly older woman in this position...In sum,for me Cassie is a young but experienced woman who has already some "life" at her back.
No,it's not the age gap what separated her from Ennis,but his own and very personal troubles and problems.Cassie needed a man because,as someone also said once,she is as conventionalist in the end as Alma,but with her own way to show it.Ennis needed a woman to be a cover and,maybe he thought to be able to love her in his own style.But later he realised that wasn't going to happen,so he run away from her because he didn't want her to be unhappy as he made Alma be,even if without wanting it...Jack himself was surprised of this lack of "cover" before society when he asked him if he hadn't found "somebody" to marry in all those years.Both Ennis and Jack knew,although in their own ways,that their love was going nowhere in their social and cultural environment and that they needed to be two "normal" men,the way only a woman could allow them.It's sad,but it's the truth...

[chowhound]

Great insight into the added “or sumthin’” – Ennis not able to focus on anything she’s sayin’. Would be interestin’ to know whose idea it was. Occurs to me that the fact that its nursing school, also throws it into a different light. That is, being something in the professional world, higher education, it’s completely alien to Ennis and his world. Maybe another reason for him to get away from her (if he needed it), didn’t need to be around a woman who was smarter than him, huh?

A very interesting suggestion, Jackster, about Cassie and nursing school. I agree that Ennis probably would find it offputting. Waitresses and store attendants he could deal with but doctors and nurses? Somehow, I doubt it.

[chowhound]

"I'd like to believe Heath came up with 'em two little words that injected so much meaningful subtext. That's his style, and we know for certain that he did that a lot, surprising the cast and crew. Like the time with the harmonica and Jake, the shirts and Diana. What the world of film lost that one January day.  "
[/quote]

Heath and the shirts I know about but not the harmonica and Jake. So, lancecowboy, what's the story here?

[lancecowboy]

Heath and the shirts I know about but not the harmonica and Jake. So what's the story there?

The scene is the "They ain't going no where."

The line Heath added at the end, that broke Jake out of character and started laughing, which Ang Lee kept in the film, was "If I was lucky, that harmonica would've broke in two." in response to Jack's, "She got lucky."

[jackster]

LC - Wonderin' about this. All my "copies" of the screenplays, including early "drafts" include this "broke in two" line (see below page from the 31 March 2004 w/ Revisions of 7 April 2004). Did one of the boys claim this in an interview or sumthin'? Just wonderin'- (sorry OT)

[lancecowboy]

LC - Wonderin' about this. All my "copies" of the screenplays, including early "drafts" include this "broke in two" line (see below page from the 31 March 2004 w/ Revisions of 7 April 2004). Did one of the boys claim this in an interview or sumthin'? Just wonderin'- (sorry OT)

Yes, I recall it was from an interview but I don't remember the detail or the person who said it.    It has been a while since those foggy days of PBS, but if I come across it again, I will post it.

[chowhound]

LC - Wonderin' about this. All my "copies" of the screenplays, including early "drafts" include this "broke in two" line (see below page from the 31 March 2004 w/ Revisions of 7 April 2004). Did one of the boys claim this in an interview or sumthin'? Just wonderin'- (sorry OT)

Jackster and LC: I've just run a quick check on the earlier scripts I have, and the "broke in two" line is in my earliest script - Feb 1, 2003 - and continues unchanged right through until PSP (Published Screen Play) and, obviously, forms part of FC (Final Cut). Curious.

[lancecowboy]

Jackster and LC: I've just run a quick check on the earlier scripts I have, and those two lines are in my earliest script - Feb 1, 2003 - and continue unchanged right through until PSP (Published Screen Play) and, obviously, form part of FC (Final Cut). Curious.

I guess we can presume that I was in error until I can find the interview. And even then, it may be an error on the part of the person who said it. I guess the only people who know are the writers, and Heath.

[chowhound]

I thought it might be worth noting that when Ennis tells Jack about Cassie, his relationship to her could effectively have been over by then. Jack and Ennis's final meeting probably takes place in the May of 1983 and his final meeting with Cassie is probably a month or two later, say in the June or July of the same year. At that meeting, two things emerge. The first is that for some while she has been trying to contact Ennis for she says to him:

I left word for you with Steve at the ranch. And you must have got those notes I left at your place.

How long this has been going on, we don't know. But it sounds to me as though Cassie's attempt to contact Ennis might well have taken place over a few months. The second thing to emerge is that at some point in this process, Cassie has decided that her affair with Ennis is over and she has had time to meet and establish a relationship with a new boyfriend, Carl. How long this has been going on, we don't know, but when we see Carl, it becomes clear this isn't their first date as Cassie says of him:

Carl? Yeah, Carl's nice. He even talks.

Put these two things together and overall we may be looking at a period of, say , four to six months and so, when Ennis tells Jack about Cassie, Ennis may be describing something which effectively belongs to his past rather than the present. However, whether or not Ennis is prepared to fully acknowledge this when talking to Jack is far from clear.

But obviously he has to acknowledge it when he encounters Cassie with her new boyfriend at some point during the summer of 1983. This means, that, without Jack, his isolation is even more complete. This, along with Jack's threat of "quitting" him, may have caused Ennis to start rethinking his life during the late summer and early fall of that year. It is Ennis, of course, not Jack, who initiates the November meeting at Pine Creek and maybe, at that meeting, Ennis was thinking of offering Jack more of that "sweet life" than he ever had been prepared to offer in the past. Anyway, I like to think so.

[jackster]

All wonderful speculations here CH.
Great fun to "fill in the blanks".
 
I've always seen Ennis's "puttin' the blocks to a good lookin' gal over in Riverton" as revised reiteration of his line from 1963 "you know I ain't queer". A reassurance for himself more than Jack.

BTW: Thanks for checkin' your early scripts.

[lancecowboy]

I always thought Ennis quit Cassie after the final confrontation when he realized there is nobody but Jack who he wants to spend time with, to spend the rest of his life with. So the whole tale by the river is about something going on, not in the past. Just my two cents.

The time elapsed between Ennis avoiding Cassie and her giving up, looking for a new boyfriend, does not necessarily need to be as long as a few months.

I'd think an attractive woman and fairly intelligent woman like Cassie would get the hint after a week or two. And doubtless, she can hook up with someone like Carl in no time. She is quite the catch. And there is nothing like rebound to cement a relationship faster. Indeed, I'd speculate that only a month or two had past. Definitely before November. Probably no later than August or early September. Can anyone make out any date information on the "Returned" postcard? I can't recall if it says Ennis sent it in August or not. I suspect he sent it after the meeting with Cassie in the diner. It got him thinking that what he and Jack had was more than just two guys having fun in the woods...that it was love.

Just a few pennies for what they're worth.

[jackster]

. . . Can anyone make out any date information on the "Returned" postcard? I can't recall if it says Ennis sent it in August or not. . . .

LC: The postmark on the card is not shown. However in a somewhat remarkable continuity error, the advertising flyer Ennis is holding underneath the postcard, (one that was in the bundle of mail he just picked up) says in one of the adverts "these prices in effect until April 30th only". In this scene the trees visible on the street are in full dark green leaf yet Ennis wears his blue/gray canvas coat (same one seen in the diner with Cassie). So I would read the intention here was to make it look like late summer / early fall around end of Sept or early Oct when it can be chilly in Wyoming yet it still looks like summer. The printed date on the advertising flyer must have just gotten by the continuity guys as I can't imagine them wanting to make it look like Ennis only got three pieces of mail in six months!

[lancecowboy]

LC: The postmark on the card is not shown. However in a somewhat remarkable continuity error, the advertising flyer Ennis is holding underneath the postcard, (one that was in the bundle of mail he just picked up) says in one of the adverts "these prices in effect until April 30th only". In this scene the trees visible on the street are in full dark green leaf yet Ennis wears his blue/gray canvas coat (same one seen in the diner with Cassie). So I would read the intention here was to make it look like late summer / early fall around end of Sept or early Oct when it can be chilly in Wyoming yet it still looks like summer. The printed date on the advertising flyer must have just gotten by the continuity guys as I can't imagine them wanting to make it look like Ennis only got three pieces of mail in six months!

  Jackster your eye for detail is surpassed only by your penetrating insight.

I don't know about Ennis wearing the same coat, however. If I recall, he wore the same jacket from Brokeback Mountain meeting Jack a decade later. I think Sept. is probably about right. After all, Ennis would feel guilty missing their time together in August. So he'd send a post card confirming that he can't make it for August but would still want to meet up in November. This means, you know, that Jack was dead by September.

The scene at the diner may be earlier, before the summer in May, not long after the final confrontation. Then again, it could be in September, too. In fact, why not summer? Wyoming summer nights can be chilly, so a good canvas jacket was in order. That would explain Cassie's difficulty getting hold of Ennis. He was busy during calving season and that was his first night out having a piece of pie. And look what the cat dragged in...

Hey, wait a minute. Wasn't there a postmark of November or something? [Never mind, I think that was the postmark on the first post card] It's time to watch the movie again. Maybe when I gather enough strength.  

Great trivia for Jeopardy... Times and Dates on Brokeback.

Now if we can find Cassie's birth date.  

[lancecowboy]

Well, the hound dog for trivia that I am, got out the DVD and screen play... I will let you know ... the tears start coming like I knew, but I got lucky. I could stop it soon enough.

Here is the time line according to the screen play, and [my observations of the scene in brackets], - yes, off topic, but let's pretend we find Cassie's birth date somehow, otherwise we'd have to start a new topic. By the way, the legal drinking age in Wyoming is 21. But that doesn't prove nothing since back in those days in rural area...  

1975 - Ennis divorced, Jack went to Mexico
1978 - Jack met Randall, Ennis met Cassie
1981 - final confrontation, diner with Cassie [the other customers in the diner and outside were in shirt sleeves, without jackets]
1982 - returned post card, phone call to Texas, visit Lightening Flat [the shadows in the post office scene looks like summer, high noon]

I never noticed the discontinuity, but this brings up an interesting question.

If the final confrontation was before August 1981, and old man Twist said Jack visited them "this spring" talking about the ranch neighbour, what the hack happened to November, 1981?

Another discontinuity? Perhaps Jack never went for the visit in November, and the post office only returned the post card later in 1982?

  Jackster, help! You spotted the "prices effective until April 30th" bit. What do you make of this?

[jackster]

. . . the legal drinking age in Wyoming is 21 . . . What do you make of this?

These boys are committing a misdemeanor (and will soon commit another Wyoming crime).
Anything else, you're on your own cowboy . . .

   Now about Cassie age . . .  

[chameau]

[gmod]If you don't mind brokies, isn't this thread about How old do you think Cassie is? aren't we going   or do I miss somethin', huh? [/gmod]

[Tony]

  Myself, I think Cassie was old enough to have been around the block a few times, and she was tired of shallow and one dimensional men.  Ennis was, to her, real, and that's why she wanted him. So, somewhere between 25 and 35?  Lady Brokies, when did you decide to look for more in a man?  That may help us figure this out.

[lancecowboy]

If you don't mind brokies, isn't this thread about How old do you think Cassie is? aren't we going   or do I miss somethin', huh?

How about renaming this "Time, dates, and ages" ?

[lancecowboy]

  Myself, I think Cassie was old enough to have been around the block a few times, and she was tired of shallow and one dimensional men.  Ennis was, to her, real, and that's why she wanted him. So, somewhere between 25 and 35?  Lady Brokies, when did you decide to look for more in a man?  That may help us figure this out.

Good point. 

IMO Late twenties.

[lancecowboy]

These boys are committing a misdemeanor (and will soon commit another).
Anything else, you're on your own cowboy . . .

   Now about Cassie age . . .  

misdemeanor ?   I think sodomy back then in Wyoming was more a felony.     Any lawyers lurkin' about?  

You got me curious and so I went digging.

http://www.glapn.org/sodomylaws/sensibilities/wyoming.htm

The verdict? Felony... if they were caught and convicted. Ennis had reason to fear. 

For more information on the current state of laws in different country... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_law

[Tony]

How about renaming this "Time, dates, and ages" ?

   Yes, please....something that keeps the topic orderly under the rules, but allows good exploration.  This stuff is great!  Maybe a new thread, Lance?  Only problem is that some of the posts already here would need to be re-posted, and that would be a mess.
  Also, late twenties for Cassie sounds about right.

[lancecowboy]

  Yes, please....something that keeps the topic orderly under the rules, but allows good exploration.  This stuff is great!  Maybe a new thread, Lance?  Only problem is that some of the posts already here would need to be re-posted, and that would be a mess.
  Also, late twenties for Cassie sounds about right.

Yes, I like the renaming option as well. We need a topic for Time, Dates, and Ages Trivia.

I trust one of the administrators will make the necessary adjustments after the meets are over.

In the mean time, we should restrict our discussion to those three topics for the time being.

[lancecowboy]

Back to topic.

The actress who played Cassie, Linda Cardellini, was born on June 25, 1975, so that makes her about 30 while filming the movie. I can't imagine Ang Lee knowingly choosing someone much older or much younger to play a part other than her age. Jake (1980) and Heath (1979) were both about the age of the characters they played naturally, and used a lot of make-up to make them look much older. So I think Cassie was suppose to be between 25 and 30.

[lancecowboy]

Lance, the adjustments seem to have been made, but I am confused as to what they are.  Confused?  What's new there?  I'll figure it out after I see later posts.

No, I don't think anything has been done yet. If you simply hit the Reply link to add a new post, the Subject is the original one of the topic.  I just changed the Subject line when I posted earlier. You can do the same, if you want.

I didn't mean to confuse you.