Topic: Bobby the Bastard

[chowhound]

In a discussion of the timeline for Brokeback I posted on another thread, I mentioned to Lancecowboy that I hadn't gone into the theory that Jack wasn't Bobby's biological father when simply noting his birth as 1967. ?Bobby born.  In his reply, LC said that he'd never come across the "Bobby the Bastard" theory, so, if others here have likewise not come across it, I thought I'd briefly summarize it. It's all to do with dates.

1. The fireworks scene takes place on July 4, 1966. We know this because the announcer tells us that it is July 4, 1966.

2. The next scene is when Jack meets Lureen for the first time. A banner below the judges' box reads "CHILDRESS COUNTY FAIR AND RODEO" "4th ANNUAL" "AUG 7 RODEO AUG 14". Although the year isn't given, it also has to be 1966 as the reunion scene, when Jack is married to Lureen, will take place just a year after this scene.

3. The reunion scene takes place on Sept. 24, 1967. This is clearly established both by the content of the postcard and the postcard's datestamp.

5. During this scene, Jack tells Alma and Ennis that he is the father of a kid who is eight months old.

6. That means that Bobby must have been born in the January of that year.

7. But Jack had only met Lureen in the August of the previous year, so, even if he had impregnated Lureen that night, Lureen wouldn't be giving birth to a perfectly normal and healthy boy - as from all appearances Bobby is - some five months later.

8. Therefore Lureen must have been pregnant when Jack first meets her and Jack is not Bobby's biological father.

Let me leave it there for now to see if this gets any feedback or commentary.

[lancecowboy]

I guess this theory is an off shoot of the timeline. It all depends on the accuracy of the dates for the rodeo when Jack met Loreen, and the hospital scene.

I have to review the timeline before having an opinion on its possibility.

In any case, true or not, I don't see it having an impact on the main theme of the movie, the love between Ennis and Jack.

Having said that, it is interesting to speculate what impact there may be, if it were true, that Bobby is not Jack's biological son.

These ideas occurred to me while thinking about it. Presented here in no particular order. Call it a stream of consciousness if you will.

It may explain Jack's standing up to old man Newsome at the Thanksgiving dinner and the old man's treatment of Jack at the hospital. Rodeo was just a stand in, and the baby has no part of Jack, so he looked like a splitting image of grandpa instead of pa. Jack couldn't argue then, but when the old man went too far at the Thanksgiving dinner, implying Bobby watching football was being a real man and Jack wasn't, he said something that could be interpreted as a threat, "my house, ... my son...sit down.." In other words, any back talk from you and I am going to tell "my son" about his real daddy.

It may also explain Jack's initial proposal to Ennis, about old Newsome would be happy to pay him off to go away, now that they are married, and his willingness to leave Loreen and "his son".

However, it makes one wonder about Jack's reluctance to leave Texas, and his seemingly close relationship with Bobby, teaching his to drive a tractor, caring about his education, etc. It is possible that with time, Jack learned to love Bobby like his own, and felt a bond that made it difficult to leave Texas.  

In any case, I am not sure if Annie, Diana, Larry, or Ang Lee, intended this to be a significant part of the plot. On the other hand, if Bobby was the reason why Jack didn't move back to Lightening Flat, and made it easier for Ennis to have a sweet life with him, it would be VERY significant. On the other hand, (to the tune of Fiddler on the Roof) biological or not, it is Jack's love for Bobby, which kept him from his sweet life with Ennis, if that were the reason for not leaving Texas.

Would Jack feel different for Bobby if he were not his biological son? I doubt it. The way he told Alma...I have a little boy...is filled with pride and love. In a way, Ennis wasn't the only one with conflicting emotions in the movie.

[chowhound]

I guess this theory is an off shoot of the timeline. It all depends on the accuracy of the dates for the rodeo when Jack met Loreen, and the hospital scene.

I have to review the timeline before having an opinion on its possibility.

In any case, true or not, I don't see it having an impact on the main theme of the movie, the love between Ennis and Jack.

Having said that, it is interesting to speculate what impact there may be, if it were true, that Bobby is not Jack's biological son.

These ideas occurred to me while thinking about it. Presented here in no particular order. Call it a stream of consciousness if you will.

It may explain Jack's standing up to old man Newsome at the Thanksgiving dinner and the old man's treatment of Jack at the hospital. Rodeo was just a stand in, and the baby has no part of Jack, so he looked like a splitting image of grandpa instead of pa. Jack couldn't argue then, but when the old man went too far at the Thanksgiving dinner, implying Bobby watching football was being a real man and Jack wasn't, he said something that could be interpreted as a threat, "my house, ... my son...sit down.." In other words, any back talk from you and I am going to tell "my son" about his real daddy.

It may also explain Jack's initial proposal to Ennis, about old Newsome would be happy to pay him off to go away, now that they are married, and his willingness to leave Loreen and "his son".

However, it makes one wonder about Jack's reluctance to leave Texas, and his seemingly close relationship with Bobby, teaching his to drive a tractor, caring about his education, etc. It is possible that with time, Jack learned to love Bobby like his own, and felt a bond that made it difficult to leave Texas.  

In any case, I am not sure if Annie, Diana, Larry, or Ang Lee, intended this to be a significant part of the plot. On the other hand, if Bobby was the reason why Jack didn't move back to Lightening Flat, and made it easier for Ennis to have a sweet life with him, it would be VERY significant. On the other hand, (to the tune of Fiddler on the Roof) biological or not, it is Jack's love for Bobby, which kept him from his sweet life with Ennis, if that were the reason for not leaving Texas.

Would Jack feel different for Bobby if he were not his biological son? I doubt it. The way he told Alma...I have a little boy...is filled with pride and love. In a way, Ennis wasn't the only one with conflicting emotions in the movie.

Hi LC. Essentially, I think you're right. If Jack is not Bobby's biological father, it would explain Old Man Newsome's dismissive attitude towards Jack as soon as Bobby is born. Now that Jack has served his purpose in providing cover for Lureen, he can, as far as Old Man Newsome's concerned, get the hell out. If that happened, then presumably, in Newsome's eyes at least, Lureen would be free to divorce Jack and find a more suitable husband. Essentially, this is what Jack tells Ennis when they are together for their first reunion - that Old Man Newsome is willing to PAY him to get lost and that that money they could use as a down payment on a little cow and calf operation.

As well, as you suggest, if Jack is not Bobby's biological father, it would more easily explain Jack's willingness to leave his wife and son and go off with Ennis. However, if this is the case, then it is to Jack's credit that he does become the father to Bobby that his father was not to him.

I think, too, that it is worth observing that FC (final cut) reverses the order of scenes found in PSP (published screen play). In PSP Jack first meets Lureen BEFORE the July 4 fireworks scene but in FC this happens the other way around, thus setting up the possibility that Jack is not Bobby's father which wouldn't arise if the order of scenes had been adhered to. In other words, it may have been a late innovation by Ang Lee.

I once wrote to Larry McMurtry to see if he could throw any light on all of this but I never got a reply. Maybe I should have written to Diana Ossana as she was on set during most of the shooting though I don't think she had any hand in the editing process.

I was a little surprised that this topic didn't generate more interest but maybe it has been discussed before. Certainly the subject has been around for some while.

[lancecowboy]

Sorry for the delay in response, but real life sometimes require attention, too.  

Hi LC. Essentially, I think you're right. If Jack is not Bobby's biological father, it would explain Old Man Newsome's dismissive attitude towards Jack as soon as Bobby is born. Now that Jack has served his purpose in providing cover for Lureen, he can, as far as Old Man Newsome's concerned, get the hell out. If that happened, then presumably, in Newsome's eyes at least, Lureen would be free to divorce Jack and find a more suitable husband. Essentially, this is what Jack tells Ennis when they are together for their first reunion - that Old Man Newsome is willing to PAY him to get lost and that that money they could use as a down payment on a little cow and calf operation.

That's an interesting theory, and certainly explains the "look" that Newsome gave to Rodeo in the hospital, and also the money to get lost.

As well, as you suggest, if Jack is not Bobby's biological father, it would more easily explain Jack's willingness to leave his wife and son and go off with Ennis. However, if this is the case, then it is to Jack's credit that he does become the father to Bobby that his father was not to him.

Again an interesting theory to speculate that Jack was more than willing to leave Lureen and the newborn Bobby, but became less willing as he grew attached to the little kid, teaching him how to drive, taking him to school, etc. Jack had always had a soft spot for the little lambs. After a while, he couldn't quit Bobby, and he couldn't quit Ennis, so he was left with a most unsatisfactory situation where he had to drive fourteen hours each way to get a few f@#@s a few times a year. It wasn't just thinking out loud when he suggested to Ennis to move to Texas. I bet he was thinking about it often enough on those long drives. Just imagine how nice it would be for Jack to have Ennis closer. He could have his cake and eat it. Jack and his dreams, where bluebirds sing next to a whiskey spring.

I think, too, that it is worth observing that FC (final cut) reverses the order of scenes found in PSP (published screen play). In PSP Jack first meets Lureen BEFORE the July 4 fireworks scene but in FC this happens the other way around, thus setting up the possibility that Jack is not Bobby's father which wouldn't arise if the order of scenes had been adhered to. In other words, it may have been a late innovation by Ang Lee.

Again, as I said from the beginning venturing into this investigation of timelines, the short story and the screenplay and the movie must be kept separate as works in their own right. Comparison is okay but mixing the chronology will yield frustration. And obviously, only the respective author(s) of each work knows for certain what was intended.

I once wrote to Larry McMurtry to see if he could throw any light on all of this but I never got a reply. Maybe I should have written to Diana Ossana as she was on set during most of the shooting though I don't think she had any hand in the editing process.

I was a little surprised that this topic didn't generate more interest but maybe it has been discussed before. Certainly the subject has been around for some while.

I don't know if any of them (Annie, Larry, Diana, and Ang Lee) had ever discussed the motivation of the chronology and detailed elements. The only reference to Cassie was about "the women in their lives" so I am not sure about all the timeline elements. I know the decision to move the motel scene and the final confrontation was for dramatic reason, which Annie finally agreed after she saw the movie's final version.

I suspect the lack of general interest on this particular topic is because it is way off in left field as it relates, or NOT relates to the theme central to the story, the love between Ennis and Jack. Even Cassie, whom I find very relevant, is not often discussed. And we won't even talk about Jack's Ma, who I adore to no end and consider a central character in the story, a kind of counterpoint to the other central invisible character - homophobia. Most reviews of Brokeback Mountain never mention Jack's Ma, only "the gay cowboys" or at most if the reviewers were intelligent "homophobia." Those that give credit to the importance of Heath's scene in the kitchen with Jack's Ma are few and rare exceptions.

Bobby is such a tiny element (pun intended) in the story; I am not surprised that most people don't give him a second thought. A pity, really because I think, as you pointed out, his relationship with Jack highlights a part of Jack's character which we love.

[rimasworld]

I don't know, guess I've always thought of Bobby as Jack's child. Even though I did notice the month of the rodeo on the banner, I kind of thought well.. maybe since things were happening separately to Ennis & Jack during that time when neither one of them knew if they would ever see the other again, things didn't have to appear in chronological order so to speak. And the little boy in the movie resembled Jack ( dark hair, fair skin ) so I just kind of assumed he was Jack's.