Author Topic: What about Ennis "faintness" ?  (Read 25269 times)

Offline Nevermore

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What about Ennis "faintness" ?
« on: Feb 20, 2011, 05:57 PM »
I was just wondering if in the scene just after he leave Jack (without knowing if he will see him again) Ennis was about to -sorry for the word- "vomit" and if it's so, what had provoked this kind of "faintness", because these scene means a lot to me, I've been sick just like that, when I fell in love years ago...  ::)

What is your opinion on this scene ? Curious to know...
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Offline jackster

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Re: What about Ennis "faintness" ?
« Reply #1 on: Feb 21, 2011, 07:22 PM »
Nevermore: The best way I know to answer your question is to quote from the short story, Annie Proulx describes the emotions Ennis is feeling at this moment thus:

"Right," said Jack, and they shook hands, hit each other on the
shoulder; then there was forty feet of distance between them and nothing to
do but drive away in opposite directions. Within a mile Ennis felt like
someone was pulling his guts out hand over hand a yard at a time. He
stopped at the side of the road and, in the whirling new snow, tried to puke
but nothing came up. He felt about as bad as he ever had and it took a long
time for the feeling to wear off.


Hope this shows what Heath portrayed so dramatically in this scene.
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Offline Nevermore

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Re: What about Ennis "faintness" ?
« Reply #2 on: Feb 22, 2011, 04:41 AM »
Thanks Jackster to have take time to answer ! That's what I was thinking, when I first saw this scene I can physically feel what he was going through, poor Ennis  :_(
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Offline rdx

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Re: What about Ennis "faintness" ?
« Reply #3 on: Feb 22, 2011, 10:16 AM »
Right on jackster. And while reunioning at the motel the short story continues with Ennis's lines:

"
When we split up after we got paid out I had gut cramps so bad
I pulled over and tried to puke, thought I ate something bad
at that place in Dubois. Took me about a year a figure out it
was that shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by
a long, long while.
"

In general, I'd say that their conversation at the motel is the most comprehensive difference between the short story and the film. The film omits certain aspects brought up in their "half tumescent" conversation. 
"I'm spurrin' his guts out! Wavin' to the girls in the stands! He's kickin' me to high heaven, but he don't jackboard me! No!" Jack

Offline jackster

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Re: What about Ennis "faintness" ?
« Reply #4 on: Feb 22, 2011, 12:58 PM »
The film omits certain aspects brought up in their "half tumescent" conversation. 

Yeah, too bad. It'd be real interesting to understand the difference between a "half-tumescent" and "full-tumescent", must be sumthin' about all that time a horseback. "I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you", like they say Ennis, 'practice make perfect'.
 #s}

sorry OT
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Offline chowhound

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Re: What about Ennis "faintness" ?
« Reply #5 on: Feb 22, 2011, 03:17 PM »
Right on jackster. And while reunioning at the motel the short story continues with Ennis's lines:

"
When we split up after we got paid out I had gut cramps so bad
I pulled over and tried to puke, thought I ate something bad
at that place in Dubois. Took me about a year a figure out it
was that shouldn't a let you out a my sights. Too late then by
a long, long while.
"

In general, I'd say that their conversation at the motel is the most comprehensive difference between the short story and the film. The film omits certain aspects brought up in their "half tumescent" conversation. 

Hi rdx,
  Have you ever thought about the geography and timeline envisaged in Ennis's account here? I vaguely have but it's never gone beyond "vaguely".
  So, where is Dubois? And how far is it from Signal? And did they both go to Dubois for something to eat before returning to Aguirre's trailer for pay out so that the puking in the alley we see in the film could be the result of something Ennis had had to eat in Dubois? Or is Ennis suggesting that after splitting up he went to Dubois for something to eat, felt bad, pulled over and tried to puke, thinking then the cause was something bad he'd had to eat but only a year later figured out the real cause was not possible food poisoning but the emotional turmoil caused by his separation from Jack.?

   The film certainly simplifies all of this. The shot of Ennis in that alley way trying to puke and the violence he dislays towards that casual onlooker undoubtedly suggest to me and to most, I think, that this is a violent physical reaction from Ennis to his very recent  separation from Jack along, no doubt, with the realization that he might never see him again.
   Whether Ennis, however, is as clear as this in his own mind is open to question. Story Ennis says it took him a year to figure things out and maybe this is true of movie Ennis as well.

Offline Nevermore

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Re: What about Ennis "faintness" ?
« Reply #6 on: Feb 22, 2011, 03:52 PM »
Too bad, I havn't read the book yet  :( interesting what you are saying both, I think, sometimes body talks before mind, in my case, I was falling in love without knowing, or must I say : I did not want to fall in love with the guy, not my kind of, and many other reasons, I was totally denying the whole thing, just wanting to keep him as a friend, but each time he left me, I was in the same state that Ennis was, about to puke, etc... I think the author was brilliant to put this detail in her story  O0
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Offline jackster

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Re: What about Ennis "faintness" ?
« Reply #7 on: Feb 22, 2011, 05:26 PM »
Hey CH:

Don't know 'bout rdx, but I've thought a lot about the geography. DuBois, Wyoming is a real locale easily found using Google and there's even a real "place" in DuBois where I imagine they ate, here it is in the 1960s, the Cowboy Cafe:

But 'course I'm only guessin'. DuBois is on US 287 on the way into Yellowstone National Park, now crowded in summer 'cause of the Park, but very nice rest of the year and seems almost deserted in winter.
Ain't no signal. Nowhere, least not in Wyoming. An imaginary place dreamt up by Annie. Obviously somewhere up in the mountains, but it's not clear what range, Bridger-Tetons, Wind River, Big Horn, etc. Like Brokeback itself. There's not many highways into/out of DuBois and the nearest "town" is Burris which is about 25 miles. Hardly nuthin' in Burris though, in the movie anyway, Signal is much bigger than Burris. My conclusion is that it really is just imaginary, though I've never seen any conclusive info on this from the mouth of AP. If I recall correctly she was living in and about central WY at the time, I believe she cited her frequent trips driving past a certain cement plant in Casper (I think) when she was working on the Dozy Embrace scene. Signal could have been a compilation of numerous small Wyo towns.

You pose an interesting question as to if Ennis went to eat alone in DuBois or with Jack. I'd always imagined they went together after coming back down off the mountain, sort of a last supper thing. But there's really nothing in the narrative that would indicate it couldn't have been after they were paid and split up and then Ennis went to eat alone, which in some ways would be more in character.
I've always interpreted Ennis's fist smashing in the ally as his striking out at himself and the frustration he felt at falling in love with a man. A man now gone, and he knows not where. The innocent bystander just happened to be in the wrong place, wrong time, just like so many of Ennis's "victims". Ennis didn't especially go lookin' for trouble, but he wouldn't shy away from it either. He "fixed it" if he could, just like with his brother KE.
JMHO.
 :c)
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Offline rdx

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Re: What about Ennis "faintness" ?
« Reply #8 on: Feb 23, 2011, 01:31 AM »
chowhound, I've never thought of that but I agree with jackster that Signal is a "pretend place". Dubois, on the other hand, is 'on the way' coming back from the mountains.

Thanks for the info jackster. I so agree. I'd say that the SS suggests that they ate together.."at that place in Dubois" or at least somehow Jack is familiar with that place. Certainly it wasn't the food that made Ennis feel sick.

Nevermore, I hope you can get the SS [in English please O0]. I  must say that it took a relatively long to time for me (a non-native speaker) to read the SS. The language is so sparse, 'economical' but yet exquisite: every word counts.

*o)
Yup, jackster, "all that time a horseback"  #s}. The conversation at the motel is a prominent portrayal of Ennis and Jack..their true nature.
« Last Edit: Feb 23, 2011, 01:38 AM by rdx »
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Offline lancecowboy

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Re: What about Ennis "faintness" ?
« Reply #9 on: Feb 23, 2011, 03:01 AM »
Great discussion going on here, fellas. Not much I can contribute. Jackster is at it again, with your amazing knack for finding the perfect places for the movie...Jack Pine Motel...Cowboy Cafe... (:* Just thinking Ennis eating alone in that Cafe, like the foreshadowing of the apple pie in the diner... :(

I am in full agreement with the regrettable difference between the short story and the movie in the motel scene. So much left unsaid unseen...the smell of sweat and semen. Then again, so much conveyed by the movie with so few words. Gotta love it.

Oh, perhaps I can contribute a little. I recall it was said that Ang Lee thought the Brokeback Mountain area is located near Dubois, around the Tetons. I think this was stated in the book of the short story and screen play, and the three essays.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline Nevermore

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Re: What about Ennis "faintness" ?
« Reply #10 on: Feb 23, 2011, 04:28 AM »

Nevermore, I hope you can get the SS [in English please O0]. I  must say that it took a relatively long to time for me (a non-native speaker) to read the SS. The language is so sparse, 'economical' but yet exquisite: every word counts.

*o)


Yeah, I hope to ! Can't wait to read it ! In English I swearO0
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Offline chowhound

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Re: What about Ennis "faintness" ?
« Reply #11 on: Feb 23, 2011, 12:55 PM »
Hey CH:

Don't know 'bout rdx, but I've thought a lot about the geography. DuBois, Wyoming is a real locale easily found using Google and there's even a real "place" in DuBois where I imagine they ate, here it is in the 1960s, the Cowboy Cafe:

But 'course I'm only guessin'. DuBois is on US 287 on the way into Yellowstone National Park, now crowded in summer 'cause of the Park, but very nice rest of the year and seems almost deserted in winter.
Ain't no signal. Nowhere, least not in Wyoming. An imaginary place dreamt up by Annie. Obviously somewhere up in the mountains, but it's not clear what range, Bridger-Tetons, Wind River, Big Horn, etc. Like Brokeback itself. There's not many highways into/out of DuBois and the nearest "town" is Burris which is about 25 miles. Hardly nuthin' in Burris though, in the movie anyway, Signal is much bigger than Burris. My conclusion is that it really is just imaginary, though I've never seen any conclusive info on this from the mouth of AP. If I recall correctly she was living in and about central WY at the time, I believe she cited her frequent trips driving past a certain cement plant in Casper (I think) when she was working on the Dozy Embrace scene. Signal could have been a compilation of numerous small Wyo towns.

You pose an interesting question as to if Ennis went to eat alone in DuBois or with Jack. I'd always imagined they went together after coming back down off the mountain, sort of a last supper thing. But there's really nothing in the narrative that would indicate it couldn't have been after they were paid and split up and then Ennis went to eat alone, which in some ways would be more in character.
I've always interpreted Ennis's fist smashing in the ally as his striking out at himself and the frustration he felt at falling in love with a man. A man now gone, and he knows not where. The innocent bystander just happened to be in the wrong place, wrong time, just like so many of Ennis's "victims". Ennis didn't especially go lookin' for trouble, but he wouldn't shy away from it either. He "fixed it" if he could, just like with his brother KE.
JMHO.
 :c)

Hi Jackster,
  Thanks for your informative reply. I'd forgotten Signal was "some pretend place" so obviously there's no point in trying to work out how far it is from
Dubois. By the way, I loved the snapshot of the Cowboy's Cafe in Dubois. It looks exactly like the sort of place Jack and Ennis might have dropped into for a bite to eat.
   I've now come to feel that in the short story's arrangement of events, there is no time for Ennis to go off to Dubois by himself for a meal after parting with Jack and then fall ill while driving on somewhere else. In the short story, it seems to me, the sequence of events must be that they come down from Brokeback, go together to Dubois for a meal, and then return to Aguirre's trailer where they part. The puking takes place very shortly after the parting so, if the meal was the cause, it had to be an hour or two back:

" 'Right," said Jack, and they shook hands, hit each other on the shoulder, then there was forty feet of distance between them and nothing to do but drive away in opposite directions. Within a mile Ennis felt like someone was pulling his guts out hand over hand a yard at a time. He stopped at the side of the road but nothing came up."

The movie's version, however, is somewhat more straightforward as Dubois and a meal there is never mentioned either when they are parting or when they are talking in the motel. In the movie we have them parting in a noticeably more subdued manner than in the short story - they never even touch each other - and then Ennis walks away. However, not long after that - no doubt "within a mile" - Ennis steps aside to puke or at least try to puke. Most viewers , I believe, see what is happening to Ennis here as an outward manifestation of his distress at having to leave Jack. Certainly, in this version, no "bad meal" is on hand to provide another possible explanation.

However, how clear Ennis is about what is really upsetting him is difficult to say and so is left up to each individual to ponder. In the short story Ennis says it took him "about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn't have let you out a my sights" and maybe this is also true of movie Ennis as well. If this is the case, then what we are witnessing in that alley is an inchoate explosion of conflicting emotions of love,anger, desire, frustration, fear, even though none of these Ennis fully comprehends. No wonder he yells at the innocent bystander "what the f--- you lookin' at?" when Ennis barely understands himself.
« Last Edit: Feb 23, 2011, 03:26 PM by chowhound »

Offline jackster

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Re: What about Ennis "faintness" ?
« Reply #12 on: Feb 23, 2011, 05:32 PM »
  I've now come to feel that in the short story's arrangement of events, there is no time for Ennis to go off to Dubois by himself for a meal after parting with Jack and then fall ill while driving on somewhere else.  . . .

. . .  No wonder he yells at the innocent bystander "what the f--- you lookin' at?" when Ennis barely understands himself.

You bet!
Have to agree w/ everything you've put so well here CH, thanks for your sharp insight into the chain of events.  O0
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Offline Nevermore

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Re: What about Ennis "faintness" ?
« Reply #13 on: Feb 23, 2011, 07:55 PM »
Thanks for sharing all this, good job  O0
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Offline lancecowboy

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Re: What about Ennis "faintness" ?
« Reply #14 on: Feb 24, 2011, 12:25 AM »
Hmm... :s) It just occurred to me that the meal at Dubois must have happened AFTER they came down the mountain and were being paid out by Aguirre. I don't think they can go off for a meal with all 'em sheep tagging along.  :P

Here is what I reckon...they came down the mountain silently, Jack sulking from that sucker punch and Ennis worried that Jack was now sore at him. Met up with Aguirre and while the guy was counting up the sheep, the cowboys went for something to eat, probably silently, perhaps talking about Aguirre, how he might react to some of 'em sheep being not his, the mix-up and all. I doubt if they talked at all about their plans for the future, nothing more than what they talked about in the movie outside the trailer. The Army. Getting married. It's probably also when Jack stole that shirt...sneaking it out of his paper bag when Ennis went to the washroom or something. After the meal, the two went back to Aguirre, smoking their after cigarettes, leaning against the fence, putting up with Aguirre's bs about ranch hands, before returning to the trailer with him to get paid out.

Cut to the movie scene...  :_( ...my gut dragging out hand over hand. Never shoulda let you outta my sight. Jack looking back in the rear-view mirror at the back of a lonesome Ennis walking slowly down the road, in the opposite direction, getting smaller, getting out of his life.  :_(
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Offline Nevermore

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Re: What about Ennis "faintness" ?
« Reply #15 on: Feb 24, 2011, 02:50 AM »
It's probably also when Jack stole that shirt...sneaking it out of his paper bag when Ennis went to the washroom or something.

That is a nice explaination to this "magic trick" ! I was wondering about  O0
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Offline Nevermore

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Re: What about Ennis "faintness" ?
« Reply #16 on: Feb 24, 2011, 02:53 AM »
Cut to the movie scene...  :_( ...my gut dragging out hand over hand. Never shoulda let you outta my sight. Jack looking back in the rear-view mirror at the back of a lonesome Ennis walking slowly down the road, in the opposite direction, getting smaller, getting out of his life.  :_(

 :_(
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Offline jackster

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Re: What about Ennis "faintness" ?
« Reply #17 on: Feb 24, 2011, 08:18 AM »
Hmm... :s) It just occurred to me that the meal at Dubois must have happened AFTER they came down the mountain and were being paid out by Aguirre. I don't think they can go off for a meal with all 'em sheep tagging along. . . .

Cut to the movie scene...  ...my gut dragging out hand over hand. Never shoulda let you outta my sight. Jack looking back in the rear-view mirror at the back of a lonesome Ennis walking slowly down the road, in the opposite direction, getting smaller, getting out of his life.


Hmmm . . . Seems your falling into an easy trap here LC, been in it a few times myself  :c) - trying to blend the movie and the SS time lines into a single continuity. Don't think it can be done, they just don't follow each other close enough - 'course this is JMHO, huh? I feel they mostly need to stand apart, like the description of a single event given by two different people. It wus the same thing that happened, but seen by different eyes, felt by different hearts. I know this really annoys some (that it don't quite fit together), but it don't bother me. To me it's sorta' like having two great versions of the same genuine tale, each with it's own beauty, it's own pathos.

this one :-\\ that one
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Offline Dangerina

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Re: What about Ennis "faintness" ?
« Reply #18 on: Feb 24, 2011, 08:50 AM »
Lance, as for Dubois, it's all easily explained in the script - have you read it by the way? It says that the boys went up the mountain on the following day, not the day they came to Aguirre - they spent their night together in Jack's truck - this was their first night, not the one in the tent  ;D  }s{

Returning back to our muttons and Ennis's puking or whatever... this seems quite normal to me, when you are torn away from someone you do love, from someone who is part of you - your body's reaction is sometimes hard to predict - and puking is not the worst variant at all - people go crazy (literally), have heart attacks, etc.
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Offline Nevermore

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Re: What about Ennis "faintness" ?
« Reply #19 on: Feb 24, 2011, 09:16 AM »
Returning back to our muttons and Ennis's puking or whatever... this seems quite normal to me, when you are torn away from someone you do love, from someone who is part of you - your body's reaction is sometimes hard to predict - and puking is not the worst variant at all - people go crazy (literally), have heart attacks, etc.

That's right Dangerina  O0 ! I was not aware of that until I felt myself this way, when I first going thru this I was asking myself : are you sick or something  ;D ? That's a friend of mine that put a word on it : love ! It took me weeks to realize that she was right and to accept it ! That's why this scene in the movie means a lot for me  ;)
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Offline lancecowboy

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Re: What about Ennis "faintness" ?
« Reply #20 on: Feb 24, 2011, 10:00 PM »
Thanks for the reminder Jackster. Not sure what part of my story was in the trap. Care to point out the problem? I am mostly going by the movie, and don't see a problem with inserting a bite to eat at Dubois, which gives Jack the opportunity to swipe the shirt from Ennis. I always thought that it was clever of him to do it while on horseback riding down the mountain with a thousand sheep to look after. Then again, maybe he deliberately busted up his truck to get Ennis working under the hood, so he can get his hands on that shirt.  :s) So many possibilities. I still like the idea of the restaurant, though...kind of a last meal together for the cowboys. No more beans.

Dangerina, it's been ages, years, since I read the screenplay and the short story. I may be wrong, so feel free to point out any discrepancy. I think you had mistaken the night together BEFORE their summer on Brokeback with the night after. I am not sure if they spent the night together AFTER they came down the mountain. As I said, it's been a long time since I read either, so I could be wrong.

Yeah, Nevermore, the physical impact of missing someone, of loving someone.  :ghug:
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Offline Dangerina

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Re: What about Ennis "faintness" ?
« Reply #21 on: Feb 25, 2011, 09:03 AM »
Lance, I said about the night before BBM - the night spent in Jack's truck before they went up with the sheep.
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Offline lancecowboy

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Re: What about Ennis "faintness" ?
« Reply #22 on: Feb 25, 2011, 01:08 PM »
Lance, I said about the night before BBM - the night spent in Jack's truck before they went up with the sheep.

Right. That's why I was confused. What does that have to do with the parting scene?  :s) And I don't think they did anything in the truck. Just saying...  :P
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Offline haveacrush

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Re: What about Ennis "faintness" ?
« Reply #23 on: Mar 01, 2011, 01:27 PM »
oh what a heart wrenching topic u have found.. in a movie where every scene competes with the other,( or going by the book - every situation competing with the other !)  :_( in a this one really gives others a run for thier money
on the "fainting " : how do i describe it in words - its a mixture of utter desparation, dissapontment with himself, contradicting emotions (how many ?) pulling him apart, not understanding why m feeling so bad, words and emotions clogged at the throat, killing the screams of "nooo.." and "why..." the heart missed how many beats ???????? may be a lifetime of words are not enough, 
(and my inadequate bad english not helping the cause either...!!)
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Offline Nevermore

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Re: What about Ennis "faintness" ?
« Reply #24 on: Mar 01, 2011, 05:44 PM »
how do i describe it in words - its a mixture of utter desparation, dissapontment with himself, contradicting emotions (how many ?) pulling him apart, not understanding why m feeling so bad, words and emotions clogged at the throat, killing the screams of "nooo.." and "why..." the heart missed how many beats ???????? may be a lifetime of words are not enough, 
(and my inadequate bad english not helping the cause either...!!)

Thank you for your interpretation of that scene Haveacrush, you put it perfectly in words  O0 For me, this scene give us an insight of what will be Ennis's life after he met Jack, a terrible fight from the inside  :_(
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Offline myprivatejack

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Re: What about Ennis "faintness" ?
« Reply #25 on: Mar 02, 2011, 12:19 PM »
Ennis feels devastated for being away from the first person he has loved the most in his,until that moment,short life; nothing to do with what he thought he felt for Alma,something well seen for the narrow-minded society,something that a real man must do...But it's not the only reason,even if the greater one;I think that it's this condition of "being a real man" who also gets in contradiction with what he has lived during that summer up the mountain.
At that point,he knew for sure that he wasn't a "real man" but he must be it from that moment onwards.And he knew also that he must lived according to the expectations all the others-beginning with his future wife-had for him.And again appeared inside him this contradiction,this "wanting" and "denying","looking for"and "rejecting" about his condition that marked all his life by Jack's(and Alma's) side.I mean that all his inner turmoil appears in the very moment he left his lover and he must confront reality: that he's a "queer·" who must be disguised of a straight man,a respectable husband and father.He doesn't feel able to be that way,and he doesn't feel able to be the other way...Poor Ennis ¡ His contradictions really marked for bad several lives,beginning for his own... :_(
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
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