Author Topic: Whose love was greater? That of Jack or of Ennis?  (Read 24162 times)

Offline IVY

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Re: Whose love was greater? That of Jack or of Ennis?
« Reply #30 on: Mar 29, 2012, 11:36 AM »
Jack nor Ennis has complete, perfect, true love, except when they were up there in Brokeback Mountain, away from society, in the middle of nowhere. But to qualify love in that way is to say that love is not perfect.

« Last Edit: Mar 29, 2012, 03:55 PM by ethan »

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Whose love was greater? That of Jack or of Ennis?
« Reply #31 on: Mar 29, 2012, 08:25 PM »
Perfect or not, it's still the love that never grows old, the love that we all found from the movie, and bounded to it.

Love doesn't have to be perfect. It just needs to be. Welcome Ivy.   :h} #$# ^f^
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Whose love was greater? That of Jack or of Ennis?
« Reply #32 on: Apr 02, 2012, 03:12 PM »
I have to admit that I have much more empathy for jack than Ennis, he waited not 1, 5, but 20 years, as far as I'm concerned I couldn't have waited so long, even if my love for someone had been great, I would have been devastated but for my own sanity, I would have move on. What I think is tragic, it's the context, the homophobic environment where they both leave and grew up. So for me 20 years it's far too much. Jack was the one who tried to find solutions to their problems, " we should move to another place, an another state, maybe south, maybe Texas" He was willing to do that all the time. But each options of Jack were roughly rejected by Ennis. I can't blame Jack to have search solace in the arms of other men, it was just human. On the other hand, Jack was the talkative one, the extrovert one, he should have been more open to Ennis concerning his love, he hide the shirts, didn't say clearly that he loved Ennis. Sometimes I wonder why he waited 4 years to send this damn post card! ^*) When you're deeply in love, you mustn't wait so long, it was 4 years of irreparable damage. Ennis was surely in the closet all this years untill he found the shirts, but Jack too in a way in not expressing verbaly his love! shit, I'm going to cry again now :_(   

I am a bit slow replying to this. It got me thinking on a couple separate tracks.

One is the concept of waiting for someone to change. I think it's safe to say, we cannot expect the person we love to change for us. We have to take it or leave it. We can take it as is, and bask in the love of the moment. Or, we can pursue our life according to our expectations. Love cannot abide by other people's expectations. True love does not expect our beloved to change for us. True love is when we willing change ourselves for our beloved, no strings attached, no conditions amended, no expectations in return. Ennis made that mistake in his homophobia (living up to his pop and society's expectations); Jack did the same waiting on Ennis to change. Truth is, they had a good thing going. They could do more, but love is happy with what is, not what might have been. Waiting for 20years? True love waits a life time, and not regret a minute of waiting. Yes, it coulda been a sweet sweet life with the cow and calf operation, but Jack's ideas are often filled with bluebirds singing next to whiskey springs. The beauty of their relationship had always been the practicality of Ennis bringing the dreams of Jack to reality. Jack wanted elk? Ennis shot it. Jack wanted to stay closer to camp? Ennis wouldn't mind switching. Jack getting bored of just sitting around the camp fire? Ennis brought his horses for exploring the wilderness. Jack didn't like the cold in November? Ennis managed to get Don Wroe to lend them his cabin. When Ennis said "no" to Jack's dream, it was not for nothing, but for his deeply rooted fears and societal reality of that time. If Jack cannot accept Ennis the way he was, then what can we say about Jack's love? It's all about him, and Ennis was just along for the ride? I think not. Jack understood Ennis and accepted that. That's the tragedy. Jack kept on dreaming, waiting on Ennis. But his patience ran out, just as Ennis, and social mores (they were coming up on the Stonewall riot and the liberation movement when Jack died) were about to change.

Secondly, I don't think either of them thought about this as love, but more as sex and passion. The conversation in the motel was all about stemming the rose hundred of times when they were apart. Jack said he could hardly stand it, but what did he do to help to stand it? Going off to Mexico. It was never about love, consciously, except for a few moments. Jack was in denial just as much as Ennis was, but he was willing to flaunt society for sex...prostitutes and all. Ennis was more conservative, and never realized what it was, until Cassie said, "Girls don't fall in love for fun." Cowboys have fun, but fall in love for more than fun, too. So why did Jack wait four years before sending his postcard? Recall the scene at the hospital after Bobby was born. He was treated like dirt by Old Man Newsome. His wife did nothing to stand up to her father. He felt alone in a room full of people, with a baby, his own son, looking like the Old Man, so the Old Man says. Both of them found companionship where none was expected up there in the mountain. In their loneliness, they yearn for each other, and held onto each other, for twenty years, and didn't know how to quit, didn't want to quit. It's a wonder Jack waited so long before sending that postcard, but then again, he did go back to Signal looking for Ennis...but that dang Aguierre put him in his place...you boys weren't paid to stem the rose while the dogs babysat the sheep. Jack had his fears, too. So let's not blame it all on Ennis.
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline Forever

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Re: Whose love was greater? That of Jack or of Ennis?
« Reply #33 on: Apr 03, 2012, 05:49 AM »
I am a bit slow replying to this. It got me thinking on a couple separate tracks.

One is the concept of waiting for someone to change. I think it's safe to say, we cannot expect the person we love to change for us. We have to take it or leave it. We can take it as is, and bask in the love of the moment. Or, we can pursue our life according to our expectations. Love cannot abide by other people's expectations. True love does not expect our beloved to change for us. True love is when we willing change ourselves for our beloved, no strings attached, no conditions amended, no expectations in return. Ennis made that mistake in his homophobia (living up to his pop and society's expectations); Jack did the same waiting on Ennis to change. Truth is, they had a good thing going. They could do more, but love is happy with what is, not what might have been. Waiting for 20years? True love waits a life time, and not regret a minute of waiting. Yes, it coulda been a sweet sweet life with the cow and calf operation, but Jack's ideas are often filled with bluebirds singing next to whiskey springs. The beauty of their relationship had always been the practicality of Ennis bringing the dreams of Jack to reality. Jack wanted elk? Ennis shot it. Jack wanted to stay closer to camp? Ennis wouldn't mind switching. Jack getting bored of just sitting around the camp fire? Ennis brought his horses for exploring the wilderness. Jack didn't like the cold in November? Ennis managed to get Don Wroe to lend them his cabin. When Ennis said "no" to Jack's dream, it was not for nothing, but for his deeply rooted fears and societal reality of that time. If Jack cannot accept Ennis the way he was, then what can we say about Jack's love? It's all about him, and Ennis was just along for the ride? I think not. Jack understood Ennis and accepted that. That's the tragedy. Jack kept on dreaming, waiting on Ennis. But his patience ran out, just as Ennis, and social mores (they were coming up on the Stonewall riot and the liberation movement when Jack died) were about to change.

Secondly, I don't think either of them thought about this as love, but more as sex and passion. The conversation in the motel was all about stemming the rose hundred of times when they were apart. Jack said he could hardly stand it, but what did he do to help to stand it? Going off to Mexico. It was never about love, consciously, except for a few moments. Jack was in denial just as much as Ennis was, but he was willing to flaunt society for sex...prostitutes and all. Ennis was more conservative, and never realized what it was, until Cassie said, "Girls don't fall in love for fun." Cowboys have fun, but fall in love for more than fun, too. So why did Jack wait four years before sending his postcard? Recall the scene at the hospital after Bobby was born. He was treated like dirt by Old Man Newsome. His wife did nothing to stand up to her father. He felt alone in a room full of people, with a baby, his own son, looking like the Old Man, so the Old Man says. Both of them found companionship where none was expected up there in the mountain. In their loneliness, they yearn for each other, and held onto each other, for twenty years, and didn't know how to quit, didn't want to quit. It's a wonder Jack waited so long before sending that postcard, but then again, he did go back to Signal looking for Ennis...but that dang Aguierre put him in his place...you boys weren't paid to stem the rose while the dogs babysat the sheep. Jack had his fears, too. So let's not blame it all on Ennis.

I didn't say that Ennis was the one to blame, and I agree when you said that Jack had his fear too. And that's for me their main problems, through their fears, they didn't allowed themselves to be true, true to each other, and true to themselves, and that's why they're suffering so much, that's why they misunderstood each other, that's why they cannot express their love openly. If our boys would have lived nowadays, things would have been so different for them, the tragedy as you said is this homophobic environment of the 60's, it's the fears of Ennis to be found out in public with Jack. He was ready to offer Jack the moon when they were alone in Brokeback, as you said, to please his companion, but was enable to offer him the sweet life back to the real world, because of his deeply rooted fear. That's why Jack was less upset than Ennis, when they have to leave the mountain earlier, Jack didn't know about Earl and Reach, he thought that their relationship would go on after the summer. Maybe if the summer in Brokeback wouldn't have been shortening by Aguirre, they could have talked more about their relationship. I didn't blame Ennis at all, I blame this homophobic society were they both grew up; I blame the father of Ennis letting him witnesses poor Earl. I blame the father of Jack too, being so careless. And as you said once in a previous post, love and acceptance bring us together, bond us together in community and gives us strength, Fear separate us into lonely individuals. :ghug:
« Last Edit: Apr 03, 2012, 09:05 AM by Forever »
you have no idea how bad it gets!!!

Offline Forever

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Re: Whose love was greater? That of Jack or of Ennis?
« Reply #34 on: Apr 03, 2012, 07:50 AM »
Concerning the great love of Ennis, I have always wondered what was the profound reason of his refusal for the sweet life proposal, was it because he wanted to protect Jack from homophobic violence, or was it because of his own homophobic tendencies ?  Any thoughts ?

Concerning the question I asked to both of you, I tend to agree with MPJ, I think that Ennis was scared to death about what he saw when he was a child, but I tend to believe, rightly because he was so much in love, that he wanted also to protect Jack against homophobic violence. ( it's kind of strange I give an answer to my own question!) ^*()
you have no idea how bad it gets!!!

Offline haveacrush

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who loved more ? or who was more in love ... ennis or jack ?
« Reply #35 on: Jun 15, 2012, 01:55 PM »
who loved more ? or who was more in love ... ennis or jack ? :-\\ lets make it difficult - you HAVE to pick one

here please discount factors like who suffered more in life or who was less expressive or who was unable to accept the alternate sexuality - beyond all these do you feel one of them was more in love than the other
or is it that those factors i mentioned cannot be discounted while discussing
let be let be

Offline Forever

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Re: who loved more ? or who was more in love ... ennis or jack ?
« Reply #36 on: Jun 21, 2012, 04:30 AM »
who loved more ? or who was more in love ... ennis or jack ? :-\\ lets make it difficult - you HAVE to pick one

here please discount factors like who suffered more in life or who was less expressive or who was unable to accept the alternate sexuality - beyond all these do you feel one of them was more in love than the other
or is it that those factors i mentioned cannot be discounted while discussing

Haveacrush, I think that this thread had been already covered, a few months ago in the thread whose love was the greatest?  :)
you have no idea how bad it gets!!!

Offline BBMsheep

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Re: who loved more ? or who was more in love ... ennis or jack ?
« Reply #37 on: Jun 21, 2012, 07:01 AM »
Haveacrush, Forever is right, and the thread is here : http://www.ennisjack.com/forum/index.php?topic=16912.0

  :) }s{
It could be like this - just like this - always

Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Annie Proulx

Offline haveacrush

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Re: who loved more ? or who was more in love ... ennis or jack ?
« Reply #38 on: Jun 22, 2012, 11:13 AM »
hey thanks .. will check the thread :)
let be let be

Offline Borealis

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Re: Whose love was greater? That of Jack or of Ennis?
« Reply #39 on: Jun 24, 2012, 03:54 PM »
I don't know whose love was greater. In a way I think their love was one and the same. Just the thought of tearing their love apart to measure the pieces is painful. Ennis and Jack were different and they had different ways of expressing their mutual love, but lesser or greater? I can't judge in this matter. However, Ennis' love became eternal because he lost Jack. "Loosing all was winning's cost! Eternally owned is but what's lost!"

Offline haveacrush

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Re: Whose love was greater? That of Jack or of Ennis?
« Reply #40 on: Jun 25, 2012, 01:25 PM »
Lance, I'm so glad to see that I gave you new food for the thought! Ennis love greater than Jack's love, I thought WHAT ? that can't be true! But then I read the post of MPJ saying that maybe Ennis's love was the greatest rightly because he was in self-denial, his whole body and heart crying YES, desperately YES to Jack, to his love, ready to take his hand and fly together ( The breakdown of Ennis in the alleyway show me that) and sadly his stoic mind repeating again and again, NO, two man in love living together no way! >:( Makes me suddenly think of captain Haddock in tintin, with on one side the little good angel and the other side the bad one telling him that only one drop of more whiskey can't be bad for his health! ;D

ha ha captain haddock and tintin  *o) but hillarious
let be let be