Author Topic: When did Jack decide?  (Read 62906 times)

matsuki33

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #90 on: Mar 12, 2006, 11:53 AM »
that is true, i saw the movie yesterday again and in the post card he was confirming the day for Jack, it was obviously his own strange way to apologize with him and also make Jack aware that he can't be without him. i still remember when they were on their first "fishing trip" and Jack asked him"How long this will last" and Ennis replied "As long as we can"

Offline Stephen

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #91 on: Mar 12, 2006, 11:59 AM »
Yes, and doesn't Ennis say something to the effect, "There are no reins on this one...." Now that the film has left my region in NY state, I'll have to wait for the DVD to find more details. I wonder if there's a post mark on the card!  So, now I think the discussion of Jack's "decision" to leave Ennis is not so definite at all.....both men are in a constant state of flux.
« Last Edit: Mar 12, 2006, 12:01 PM by Stephen »
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matsuki33

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #92 on: Mar 12, 2006, 12:43 PM »
Yes, and doesn't Ennis say something to the effect, "There are no reins on this one...." Now that the film has left my region in NY state, I'll have to wait for the DVD to find more details. I wonder if there's a post mark on the card!  So, now I think the discussion of Jack's "decision" to leave Ennis is not so definite at all.....both men are in a constant state of flux.

Exactly, they were in the constant state of the flux, there are times when we are in love  that no matter the situations we allways have the small light of hope that someday things would change, during their times Jack tried once or twice in the movie to make Ennis move out Texas, because it was more easy for him to convince Ennis there, Ennis was afraid of the Wyoming mind, and jack want him out of that, Jack in his own way was trying to protect ennis.

i think that jack never loose that little light of hope, but he found himself trapped in a loop, he want more than he thought he got, and he wanted to go on. but, Once you find "the one" as much as you tried to escape your heart don't let you. Jack heart was already stolen and was stolen on a tent in brokeback in 1963 and he stole somebody else heart and no matter how unsatisfactory was the situation. he was happy on those moments, probable he could have being happy with the ranch neighbor, but that was just only a replacement, not the real feeling. of what is being in love.

Offline Patriot1

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #93 on: Mar 12, 2006, 01:03 PM »
When did Jack decide? Maybe he never really did; maybe he was just biding his time for a while......I'm still haunted by the card Ennis sent to reconnect with Jack! and which came back "deceased".  When did Ennis send the card? How long after the last meeting with Jack?  The card must mean that Ennis, despite the harsh words exchanged at that last get together, was not about to have Jack quit him, and if the card had been sent earlier, maybe it would have precluded Jack looking for another relationship.....what do you think?

This is my perspective.  Others could and probably will differ.

We have to go back to the last night around the campfire.  Jack tells Ennis he is having an affair with a ranch forman's wife.  We know that is a lie.  Nobody except Randall could stand her and I think even he was getting sick of her.  No, Jack was having an affair with Randall.

But, Jack also told the truth when he says to Ennis, "Tell you what. . .truth is, sometimes I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it. . ."  [tissues please] 

I believe Jack is, yet again, giving Ennis a chance to say, 'Ya bud.  I feel the same way.  We gotta do something about this situation."  But, once again Ennis doesn't say a word, he just looks into the fire.

Then we go to the argument where Ennis tells Jack that if he ever finds out Jack is cheating on him with other men he will kill him.

They argue, Ennis breaks down and cries, I start crying so hard I can't see the picture. [tissue please]

Next we see the flashback.  Now, it is unfortunate that the movie didn't convey the meaning of that scene as well as the story. Annie puts it this way;

"What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger.  ...SNIP ENTIRE SCENE... Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not what to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that.[/u][/b]  Let be.  Let be."
[all emphasis is mine]

In other words, Jack started to think that the only moment when Ennis was in love with him was that moment when Ennis held him.  The rest was the love of a best best friend who he could talk to like he could talk to nobody else.  And the sex was great too. To Ennis, Jack was the closest person he had ever gotten to and Jack was the only person Ennis had allowed to get as close to him as he did. Ennis was never, with the possible exception of that one time while holding Jack, in love with Jack.  I don't think he could even conseve of being in love with Jack he was so homophobic and hung up on their sexual encounters.

Now, having said that, we know Ennis was in love with Jack, it's just that Ennis didn't know it. Ennis couldn't even understand that Jack could be in love with him.  (At the end I will try to defend my theory)

So the next scene we see is Ennis driving away. Then, we see Jack watching him drive away with a sad, resolved look on his face. He had decided he was in love with Ennis so much he couldn't stand to see Ennis hurting like this any longer. He decided to let Ennis go to hopefully make a better life for himself. He had decided to live with Randall.  Certainly not as good as Ennis, but something he could have and who might be willing to live together because they were both gay.  Remember Randall came on to Jack so there was more interest on Randall's part than on Jacks. Perhaps Randall fell in love with Jack in a way Ennis could not. We will never know if Jack ever fell in love with Randall.  I personally doubt it.

Now, we know from later on in the movie, that Jack did indeed go to his parents house to visit and he told his dad that he was going to bring Randall up there to help out.  He had come to grips with the fact it could never be Ennis so now it would be Randall.

Now, allow me to defend this theory, and that is, after all, all it can be, a theory. Neither the story, the screenplay or the movie tells us what actually happened.

I base all this on the scene when Ennis finds the shirts in Jack's closet. Mrs. Twist knows Jack was in love with Ennis. That is why she sent him up to Jack's room, to find the shirts and then HE could know Jack was in love with him.  Look at Ennis' face when he finds the shirts.  His mouth falls open (well, open for closed mouth Ennis), his eyes widen as if he is in shock.  It is THEN that Ennis realizes Jack was in love with him in the same way a man and a woman are in love.  [box of tissues please]

Ennis now understands that a man CAN be in love with another man.  The shirts, Ennis being held by Jack, for twenty years taught him that.  He then realizes that he has been in love with Jack all this time but didn't realize that is what it was or at least couldn't admit it to himself. Ennis then hugs the shirts and tries to smell Jack. Ennis is holding Jack (the shirts) from the front!   Ennis lifts the sleeve of the shirt to hold Jack's hand. [MAJOR TISSUE SHORTAGE!!]  He is going to take Jack home to live with him.  Something Jack has always wanted.

With Jack safely at home, he takes care of Jack symbolically by buttoning Jacks shirt.  He says, "Jack, I swear. . . "  (Jack, I swear, I didn't understand your love.  Forgive me.)  [major meltdown here]

« Last Edit: Apr 19, 2006, 11:21 PM by Patriot1 »
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matsuki33

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #94 on: Mar 12, 2006, 01:15 PM »
When did Jack decide? Maybe he never really did; maybe he was just biding his time for a while......I'm still haunted by the card Ennis sent to reconnect with Jack! and which came back "deceased".  When did Ennis send the card? How long after the last meeting with Jack?  The card must mean that Ennis, despite the harsh words exchanged at that last get together, was not about to have Jack quit him, and if the card had been sent earlier, maybe it would have precluded Jack looking for another relationship.....what do you think?

This is my perspective.  Others could and probably will differ.

We have to go back to the last night around the campfire.  Jack tells Ennis he is having an affair with a ranch forman's wife.  We know that is a lie.  Nobody except Randall could stand her and I think even he was getting sick of her.  No, Jack was having an affair with Randall.

But, Jack also told the truth when he says to Ennis, "Tell you what. . .truth is, sometimes I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it. . ."  [tissues please] 

I believe Jack is, yet again, giving Ennis a chance to say, 'Ya bud.  I feel the same way.  We gotta do something about this situation."  But, once again Ennis doesn't say a word, he just looks into the fire.

Then we go to the argument where Ennis tells Jack that if he ever finds out Jack is cheating on him with other men he will kill him.

They argue, Ennis breaks down and cries, I start crying so hard I can't see the picture. [tissue please]

Next we see the flashback.  Now, it is unfortunate that the movie didn't convey the meaning of that scene as well as the story. Annie puts it this way;

"What Jack remembered and craved in a way he could neither help nor understand was the time that distant summer on Brokeback when Ennis had come up behind him and pulled him close, the silent embrace satisfying some shared and sexless hunger.  ...SNIP ENTIRE SCENE... Later, that dozy embrace solidified in his memory as the single moment of artless, charmed happiness in their separate and difficult lives. Nothing marred it, even the knowledge that Ennis would not then embrace him face to face because he did not what to see nor feel that it was Jack he held. And maybe, he thought, they'd never got much farther than that.[/u][/b]  Let be.  Let be."
[all emphasis is mine]

In other words, Jack started to think that the only moment when Ennis was in love with him was that moment when Ennis held him.  The rest was the love of a best best friend who he could talk to like he could talk to nobody else.  And the sex was great too. To Ennis, Jack was the closest person he had ever gotten to and Jack was the only person Ennis had allowed to get as close to him as he did. Ennis was never, with the possible exception of that one time while holding Jack, in love with Jack.  I don't think he could even conseve of being in love with Jack he was so homophobic and hung up on their sexual encounters.

Now, having said that, we know Ennis was in love with Jack, it's just that Ennis didn't know it. Ennis couldn't even understand that Jack could be in love with him.  (At the end I will try to defend my theory)

So the next scene we see is Ennis driving away. Then, we see Jack watching him drive away with a sad, resolved look on his face. He had decided he was in love with Ennis so much he couldn't stand to see Ennis hurting like this any longer. He decided to let Ennis go to hopefully make a better life for himself. He had decided to live with Randall.  Certainly not as good as Ennis, but something he could have and who might be willing to live together because they were both gay.  Remember Randall came on to Jack so there was more interest on Randall's part than on Jacks. Perhaps Randall fell in love with Jack in a way Ennis could not. We will never know if Jack ever fell in love with Randall.  I personally doubt it.

Now, we know from later on in the movie, that Jack did indeed go to his parents house to visit and he told his dad that he was going to bring Randall up there to help out.  He had come to grips with the fact it could never be Ennis so now it would be Randall.

Now, allow me to defend this theory, and that is, after all, all it can be, a theory. Neither the story, the screenplay or the movie tells us what actually happened.

I base all this on the scene when Ennis finds the shirts in Jack's closet. Mrs. Twist knows Jack was in love with Ennis. That is why she sent him up to Jack's room, to find the shirts and then HE could know Jack was in love with him.  Look at Ennis' face when he finds the shirts.  His mouth falls open (well, open for closed mouth Ennis), his eyes widen as if he is in shock.  It is THEN that Ennis realizes Jack was in love with him.  [box of tissues please]

Ennis now understands that a man CAN be in love with another man.  The shirts, Ennis being held by Jack, for twenty years taught him that.  He then realizes that he has been in love with Jack all this time but didn't realize that is what it was or at least couldn't admit it to himself. Ennis then hugs the shirts and tries to smell Jack. Ennis is holding Jack (the shirts) from the front!   Ennis lifts the sleeve of the shirt to hold Jack's hand. [MAJOR TISSUE SHORTAGE!!]  He is going to take Jack home to live with him.  Something Jack has always wanted.

With Jack safely at home, he takes care of Jack symbolically by buttoning Jacks shirt.  He says, "Jack, I swear. . . "  (Jack, I swear, I didn't understand your love.  Forgive me.)  [major meltdown here]




 :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

Offline Rønnaug

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #95 on: Mar 12, 2006, 04:16 PM »
Quote
Ennis now understands that a man CAN be in love with another man.  The shirts, Ennis being held by Jack, for twenty years taught him that.  He then realizes that he has been in love with Jack all this time but didn't realize that is what it was or at least couldn't admit it to himself. Ennis then hugs the shirts and tries to smell Jack. Ennis is holding Jack (the shirts) from the front!   Ennis lifts the sleeve of the shirt to hold Jack's hand. [MAJOR TISSUE SHORTAGE!!]  He is going to take Jack home to live with him.  Something Jack has always wanted.

Hadn't thought of it that way but that is kinda nice and makes sense... But i still don't think Jack woulda given up on Ennis :)
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Offline roguejedi

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #96 on: Mar 12, 2006, 06:15 PM »
AS i've said many times, this topic is the most painful for me, more than anything else...cuz of the notion of "giving up".  physically, jack did move on...no question 'bout that...but emotionally, did he?  i think no...or maybe because i want to believe that he didn't move on emotionally...i wanna believe that contrary to the story, that nothing did actually pull them apart...

Offline Patriot1

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #97 on: Mar 12, 2006, 07:20 PM »
This is my perspective.  Others could and probably will differ.

Twenty-eight people have read my perspective since I wrote it and not a single one has told me I am crazy.  Do you all agree with me?  Are you just being polite and not saying anything but think I am a nut?
If you think I am incorrect by all means say so.  Don't worry about possibly hurting my feelings.  I'm a tough old bird. I might argue back, but I can take discent.   ;D
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Offline My Man Jack

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #98 on: Mar 12, 2006, 10:36 PM »
This is my perspective.  Others could and probably will differ.

. . . SNIPED FOR BREVITY. . .


Patriot1, it seems you and I are the only two people who saw the same movie.  Your description of this scene is exactly the way I saw it.  I have looked at many web sites devoted to Brokeback Mountain and I have never, until now, found another person that saw the movie as I did.  I suspect you have a very deep, sensitive and loving heart.

Thank you for sharing your vision of what you saw.

MMJ


Offline n061857

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #99 on: Mar 13, 2006, 12:40 AM »
     
Quote

Patriot1,  What a beautiful and thought provoking perspective.   I agree with almost all your points, except that I believe that Ennis did know he loved Jack.  He gave up his wife and Cassie for Jack.  I don't think he would have entered into another relationship.  I don't recall him ever sending Jack a  postcard before.  I think it was always  the other way around.  I think their last exchange maybe would allow him to open up to the possibility of somehow intensifying their relationship. 

As for Jack,  I think he left Ennis and went straight to his parent's house as he said he was going to.  He was hurt and angry, and started to tell his family of his dreams. (to leave his wife and come live on their ranch with a man - now out of anger, Randall)  I do not believe he ever would have done this.  I think he would have stuck it out with Ennis.  He would have continued to open himself up to other possibilities with the hope of finding love elsewhere, but he would have eventually learned that this was not possible. 
I never really took any notice of the fact that he holds the shirts facing himself.  Thanks for pointing that out - beautiful.

I saw the movie for the 6th time this week and that scene and the scene when Ennis breaks down had me bawling - so so sad.

The most beautifully intimate scene to me was the second tent scene, when Ennis approaches Jack so tentatively.  Jack's tenderness just warms my heart.                                                                                              -Nancy
Quote
« Last Edit: Mar 14, 2006, 09:12 AM by n061857 »

Offline ethan

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #100 on: Mar 13, 2006, 12:48 AM »
Patriot1, what a post! It is enlightening and I really enjoyed. Thank you.

There is one part which I have to disagree.

Ennis was never, with the possible exception of that one time while holding Jack, in love with Jack.  I don't think he could even conseve of being in love with Jack he was so homophobic and hung up on their sexual encounters.

How could one be in love just in one moment? IMHO, Ennis knew that he was in love but because of his homophobia, he was trying to deny his love to Jack.
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Offline frenchcda

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #101 on: Mar 13, 2006, 01:18 AM »
Patriot1, what a post! It is enlightening and I really enjoyed. Thank you.

There is one part which I have to disagree.

Ennis was never, with the possible exception of that one time while holding Jack, in love with Jack.  I don't think he could even conseve of being in love with Jack he was so homophobic and hung up on their sexual encounters.

How could one be in love just in one moment? IMHO, Ennis knew that he was in love but because of his homophobia, he was trying to deny his love to Jack.
Patriot I hope not to offend you, however you statement is like a slap in theface of all the LIKES of me who have lived their lives and view themselves as ENNIS, I do not think for a moment that I am homophobic, I may have been so at some time in the past, but I pay the price for it today, so unless you know what it is to live closeted or repressed, do have no ideas what its like
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Offline Patriot1

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #102 on: Mar 13, 2006, 01:32 AM »
I agree with almost all your points, except that I believe that Ennis did know he loved Jack.

I would have to go back and reread my post, I have reach the age where I forget what I did or said 5 minutes ago, but I believe I did say Ennis loved Jack.  Ennis knew he loved him but I don't think Ennis knew he was IN LOVE with Jack.  Ennis had made a good friend in Jack.  Not only a good friend but a VERY VERY good friend.  Probably the first and only friend he had.  Sure he loved Jack.  He trusted Jack so much that he made an exception to his homophobia.  He wasn't queer.  Only queers can be in love with another man.  So Ennis never thought, or could not allow himself to believe he was in love with Jack.  As I also said, we all know he was in love with Jack and we know Ennis was in denial.

Quote from: n061857
I think their last exchange maybe would allow him to open up to the possibility of somehow intensifying their relationship. 

Nice thought but I don't see that happening.  It hadn't happened in 20 years.  It took the shock of seeing Jacks love for him to make him come to realize just how much they both loved each other. Jack's shirt embracing his was, I believe, the turning point.  Unfortunately too late.

Quote from: n061857
As for Jack,  I think he left Ennis and went straight to his parent's house as he said he was going to.  He was hurt and angry, and started to tell his family of his dreams. (to leave his wife and come live on their ranch with a man - now out of anger, Randall)  I do not believe he ever would have done this.  I think he would have stuck it out with Ennis.  He would have continued to open himself up to other possibilities with the hope of finding love elsewhere, but he would have eventually learned that this was not possible.

I don't think Jack would have brought Randall to his parents home either.  But, I am sure he had decided to let Ennis go so Ennis would stop hurting so much.  The ultimate sacrifice is to let go of someone you love dearly for the sake of that person. 

It does bring up the question of what would Jack have done, if he had lived, when he got Ennis' post card. How would he have handled that.  But we would have to speculate on that and there in nothing in the movie, story or screenplay to give me even a clue.  So I won't speculate on that.

Quote from: n061857
The most beautifully intimate scene to me was the second tent scene, when Ennis approaches Jack so tentatively.  Jack's tenderness just warms my heart.
                       -Nancy

A tenderness every red-blooded American boy is looking for.    ;D

Actually, it was that scene that made me realize what a once-in-a-lifetime performance I was watching. Even Ang Lee said he had never seen a performance like it before. He had said that normally you can see a look in the actor's eyes as if to say, 'This isn't me. I'm just acting.'  But he never saw that in the boys. They committed themselves to their characters and the movie and just did the scenes. And they did them beautifully in my opinion.

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Offline frenchcda

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #103 on: Mar 13, 2006, 01:45 AM »
Patriot it is very well worded, but like Ennis said he ain't no queer only queers can love another man, I beg to differ, I sure did not see myself as queer when I had my affair with another married man, I knew what I felt was stronger than anything I had ever knew of life, and there was no way come hell in high water of heaven wrath that could have drawn me away from that experience, and to this day I will never hold any regrets, sorrows and griefs no matter how intense they still are, it was all worthed at the end. I try going gay or living out there in the open, but I also tried to force myself into a straight life girlfriend and all , but to this day I don't fit in either place, so Am I queer or straight, no not in a million years I am much more I am a simple wondering soul searching his shadow!
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Offline Patriot1

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #104 on: Mar 13, 2006, 01:59 AM »
Patriot1, what a post! It is enlightening and I really enjoyed. Thank you.

There is one part which I have to disagree.

Ennis was never, with the possible exception of that one time while holding Jack, in love with Jack.  I don't think he could even conseve of being in love with Jack he was so homophobic and hung up on their sexual encounters.

How could one be in love just in one moment? IMHO, Ennis knew that he was in love but because of his homophobia, he was trying to deny his love to Jack.

Ethan, I don't think he was trying to deny his love for Jack, he knew all to well he loved Jack.  I think he was either not aware or couldn't admit he was IN LOVE with another man.  That would make him a queer and we know he could never admit that.

As for being in love for just that one moment when they hugged, the book seemed to indicate this was the one and only time during their relationship that Ennis had dropped almost all of his guard, his shield, and let himself engage in a moment of shared and satisfying sexless hunger. He was letting himself love not as a friend but as a lover.

Actually, Ennis is no different than many heterosexual men.  Many men have friendships so strong that they actually love the other person.  If it should become discovered that the friend is gay or bi, often they will engage in sex as long as nobody ever suspects. Oh sure, the first time there is sex usually one or both are drunk, but later on the alcohol isn't needed. This is the relation ship Ennis and Jack had and nobody could ever know.

You really have to watch the shirt in the closet at Jack's house scene again.  The look of shock and understanding that comes over Ennis' face is priceless.  At least I think so and that look is what I base my theory on.
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Offline Patriot1

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #105 on: Mar 13, 2006, 02:12 AM »
Patriot I hope not to offend you, however you statement is like a slap in theface of all the LIKES of me who have lived their lives and view themselves as ENNIS, I do not think for a moment that I am homophobic, I may have been so at some time in the past, but I pay the price for it today, so unless you know what it is to live closeted or repressed, do have no ideas what its like

frenchcda, I am not sure what statement I made that you are referring to.  Which one was it?

As a matter of fact, I know all too well what it is like to be closeted AND repressed AND isolated. I have never been with another person of any gender, except for once and that experience lasted three minutes, was one way and was horrible.

But tell me what statement you are talking about and we can discuss it.
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Offline BBBOY

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #106 on: Mar 13, 2006, 02:34 AM »
Quote

Ethan, I don't think he was trying to deny his love for Jack, he knew all to well he loved Jack.  I think he was either not aware or couldn't admit he was IN LOVE with another man.  That would make him a queer and we know he could never admit that.


Quote

Patriot1, we have butted heads on this before, but why did he question Jack, "You ever get the feelin', I don't know, when you're in town, and someone looks at you, suspicious....like he knows." IMHO he is admitting at that point that he is everything his father tried to brutally knock out of him. Is he going to act out on that? No. Jack is his man but at the same time he is admitting to himself and Jack that his love is for a man and thus for men.
BTW I always love your posts. You are a man who thinks.
There was some open space between what he knew and what he tried to believe, but nothing could be done about it, and if you can't fix it you've got to stand it.

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Offline Patriot1

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #107 on: Mar 13, 2006, 02:46 AM »
Patriot it is very well worded, but like Ennis said he ain't no queer only queers can love another man, I beg to differ, I sure did not see myself as queer when I had my affair with another married man, I knew what I felt was stronger than anything I had ever knew of life, and there was no way come hell in high water of heaven wrath that could have drawn me away from that experience, and to this day I will never hold any regrets, sorrows and griefs no matter how intense they still are, it was all worthed at the end. I try going gay or living out there in the open, but I also tried to force myself into a straight life girlfriend and all , but to this day I don't fit in either place, so Am I queer or straight, no not in a million years I am much more I am a simple wondering soul searching his shadow!

Do you feel Ennis thought of himself as queer just because he loved Jack?  I don't.  I do think Ennis was having problems dealing with the sex with Jack.  The book tells us that during the four years without Jack Ennis would wonder if he was queer.  He dismissed the thought because he was married, had kids and liked doing it with women. But sex with women was nowhere as good as it was with Jack. And besides, he never thought of doing it with other men.

Now we come to a potential problem because of the use of words.  I associate the word queer with gay.  I believe they are the same.  Then there is the word homosexual.  By the strictest definition of the word homosexual, Ennis was a homosexual, he sought and enjoyed sex with a member of the same sex.  Was Ennis queer?  Not as far as I am concerned.  He didn't go out looking for men to have sex with.  The sex he and Jack were having was private and personal and "a one shot thing." Ennis had no emotional, mental or physical attraction to men, just Jack.  That makes him a homosexual but not gay in my book. Ennis had no desire to set up house with Jack and live as mssers Ennis and Jack del Mar. That, in Ennis' mind would have made him queer like the old man he saw dead.

I guess we sometimes have to decide what gender we are happier with and then put ourselves in a position to meet that kind of person.  I knew a man once who was like you sound.  He never got involved in the gay scene but he found himself a mail carrier and this mail carrier would come by two or three times a week and they would spend some "quality" time together. This went on for years and years.  They were both very happy.  Is it possible you would like an arrangement like that?



Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

Love is a force of nature.

Offline Patriot1

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #108 on: Mar 13, 2006, 03:19 AM »
Patriot1, we have butted heads on this before, but why did he question Jack, "You ever get the feelin', I don't know, when you're in town, and someone looks at you, suspicious....like he knows."

Ennis did not think of himself as queer but yet he was sleeping with another man.  He was always terrified someone else would find out he was sleeping with Jack and THEY would think he was a queer and hurt him and Jack. After all, THEY didn't know he had a special[/i][/u] relationship.  THEY didn't know Ennis wasn't sleeping around with several or many men. HE knew he was sleeping with a man and his paranoia was taking over causing him to think others were looking at him funny.  They weren't of course.  Ennis didn't act like he was sleeping with Jack.  Yet, Ennis even got paranoid just standing in his yard with Jack when the truck drove by.  They weren't doing anything but talking. That is how bad his paranoia was.

Quote from: BBBOY
IMHO he is admitting at that point that he is everything his father tried to brutally knock out of him.


No, I think at that point he was AFRAID of becoming everything his father tried to brutally knock out of him.  That is one reason he would not live with Jack.  The "tough old birds" LIVED together.  Ennis could not do that or he would be like them and may be killed also.

Quote from: BBBOY
Is he going to act out on that? No. Jack is his man but at the same time he is admitting to himself and Jack that his love is for a man and thus for men.

No, sorry, I can not accept because you have a love for one man that it means you love men.  Ennis would never have looked at another man like he looked at Jack.  Now that Jack is dead could Ennis find happiness with another man?  Yes, I think so, the right man, a man like Jack that made Ennis form a close personal friendship.  But I don't think Ennis would ever go out looking for such a friendship. Therefore Ennis will live with Jack in his little trailer until his dying day.

Quote from: BBBOY
BTW I always love your posts. You are a man who thinks.

Well, if true, I have time to think being alone and wanting to discover what the hell it is that makes this movie affect me in the way it does.  If I can discover why it affects me maybe I can let it go or get it to let me go.

Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

Love is a force of nature.

Offline sam

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #109 on: Mar 13, 2006, 05:05 AM »
Well, if true, I have time to think being alone and wanting to discover what the hell it is that makes this movie affect me in the way it does.  If I can discover why it affects me maybe I can let it go or get it to let me go.

So true...so true...Patriot1.  I don't understand why this movie affects me so deeply as it does neither.  I only recently learnt from being here that I suffer from "Post-Brokeback-Mountain-Syndrome"...

So strange...so confusing...

You know, we often think: "I'm alone"..."I'm the only lonely one"...
But after visiting this forum and reading all the wonderful posts from so many different like-minded people...you slowly learn...that you are not the only one...

I am truly thankful that my eyes have been opened...

Sam
Once in a generation a movie comes along which changes the way we think about film...
"Brokeback Mountain" is that film.

Offline Patriot1

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #110 on: Mar 13, 2006, 05:13 AM »
You know, we often think: "I'm alone"..."I'm the only lonely one"...
But after visiting this forum and reading all the wonderful posts from so many different like-minded people...you slowly learn...that you are not the only one...

I am truly thankful that my eyes have been opened...

Sam

You are correct of course Sam. There are other lonely people out there.  But, you know, it doesn't make things better, it makes them worse, just to think there are others going through the same pain.  It makes it even sadder.

« Last Edit: Mar 13, 2006, 05:14 AM by Patriot1 »
Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

Love is a force of nature.

Offline sam

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #111 on: Mar 13, 2006, 05:49 AM »
You know, we often think: "I'm alone"..."I'm the only lonely one"...
But after visiting this forum and reading all the wonderful posts from so many different like-minded people...you slowly learn...that you are not the only one...

I am truly thankful that my eyes have been opened...

Sam

You are correct of course Sam. There are other lonely people out there.  But, you know, it doesn't make things better, it makes them worse, just to think there are others going through the same pain.  It makes it even sadder.



Crying even harder now... :'(
Once in a generation a movie comes along which changes the way we think about film...
"Brokeback Mountain" is that film.

Offline Stephen

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #112 on: Mar 13, 2006, 09:00 AM »
Well, Patriot !; I don't know if I started this storm of words or not, but your initial long reply to my post and all the others in response to yours are certainly a fascinating read! I've printed out this page for posterity! I love the way BBM inspires so many reactions and I admire your impassioned, articulate responses; by the time the DVD has been in our hands for a month,we all will have memorized the film, and will continue to fill in the blanks, the open ended questions, until the sheep come home! Thank you all for your posts to this thread here.
"One more chain to break to get closer to you"

Offline n061857

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #113 on: Mar 13, 2006, 11:27 AM »
[
Quote

A tenderness every red-blooded American boy is looking for.    ;D

Actually, it was that scene that made me realize what a once-in-a-lifetime performance I was watching. Even Ang Lee said he had never seen a performance like it before. He had said that normally you can see a look in the actor's eyes as if to say, 'This isn't me. I'm just acting.'  But he never saw that in the boys. They committed themselves to their characters and the movie and just did the scenes. And they did them beautifully in my opinion.

Quote

I am so happy for the gay community that they now have a love story with a love scene that parallels any love scene in the heterosexual world.  You all deserve it.  What a tribute to you all that the most powerful love story of all time (in my estimation) is a homosexual love story!   This tenderness is something we are ALL looking for.  The poignancy of Ennis and Jack's love transcends all sexual orientations.  The acting was superb.  How many of us have said that these characters are REAL to us. 

Do any of the people involved in this story and movie know of the magnitude of this website, the magnitude of its membership and the extent of the influence this movie has had on our lives?

Thanks, Titus.  I enjoy our exchanges.                                     - Nancy
« Last Edit: Mar 14, 2006, 09:19 AM by n061857 »

Offline Patriot1

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #114 on: Mar 13, 2006, 11:36 AM »
Well, Patriot !; I don't know if I started this storm of words or not, but your initial long reply to my post and all the others in response to yours are certainly a fascinating read! I've printed out this page for posterity! I love the way BBM inspires so many reactions and I admire your impassioned, articulate responses; by the time the DVD has been in our hands for a month,we all will have memorized the film, and will continue to fill in the blanks, the open ended questions, until the sheep come home! Thank you all for your posts to this thread here.

Stephen, as long as you all remember that I wasn't the genius that wrote the story to begin with and I am not the one who wrote the screenplay and I am not the one who directed the film.  I have been expressing my feelings based on what I saw unfold on the screen.  When I come to a conclusion I try to back it up with evidence.  I try never to just form an opinion based on nothing, but, on the rare occasions that I do, I make sure I say the opinion is based on nothing but feeling.  None of this process makes my opinions correct, it just makes them my opinions. 

When I read the word "impassioned" in your response above I read argumentative.  Yes, I suppose I will defend my opinions too strongly at times.  For that, I am sorry.  I never mean to offend anyone.  I love you all.  You are all my family; brothers, sisters and friends. This forum has given me a way to step outside my self-imposed isolation; even if just virtually.  That, I think, has been good for me. It has also been bad.  The good, however, has outweighed the bad.  At least I hope so.

Thank you for your kind, sensitive, thoughtful and understanding responses.   :-* on the cheek

Tell you what...truth is, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it...

Love is a force of nature.

Offline jackie62

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #115 on: Mar 13, 2006, 11:57 AM »
This is one of the big questions that grabs all of us.

patriot1 has really made me rethink what I'd believed the relationship dynamics to have been. From his powerful post i want to touch on a couple of themes.

when did Ennis realize he was in love with jack?

I feel the book and the movie are a little different here but they say the same thing to me.
 In the book,Ennis admits to Jack  in the motel ,that he threw up after their parting and while it took him along time he realized "I shouldn't a let you out of my sights . Too late then by a long way." IMO this is Ennis facing up to the fact he's in love with Jack. In the same scene he admits "I goddamn hate it that you're going to drive away in the morning....". Big thing for Ennis to admit to. in the movie , I think the same sentiments are conveyed in the stroking and rubbing of Jack's arms --- the non - verbal intimacy is powerful. The expression in Ennis's eyes (i don't know how heath ledger did this) is incredible. Then in the scene by the river when Ennis looks at the heavens , the happiness in his face is amazing, he knows he's in love. The physical closeness of Jack is what he craves. IMO, Ennis knew this was beyond just feeling close to a special person and occasionally having sex. The intensity of the sex, I think, would also have allowed him nowhere to hide.

 In a way , if he wasn't in love with Jack maybe he could have got closer to Alma. My belief is the gulf between what he had had with Jack and what he had with Alma made it clear to him he really was in love with Jack. I think his preferred way of making love to his wife was a way of imagining being with Jack.

But I totally agree Ennis would never think of himself as "queer" and would avoid thinking about it if at all possible. I would be one of the people who think Ennis might in fact be bi-sexual but that what he'd experienced made it impossible for him to conceive of this.


The shirts

GOD, what a powerful symbol. The physicality of Jack lie in those shirts. My thoughts are that the shock we see in his face is because seeing the shirts brings Jack into the room with him. He wants to smell him and hold him. Up to then I think Ennis had nothing concrete of Jack's . To lose the one you love and have nothing you can hold, bar the post cards, is tragic beyond words. So I agree the shirts were a way of holding Jack and knowing that for both of them they were under the same skin.

Offline Stephen

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #116 on: Mar 13, 2006, 02:18 PM »
Patriot 1; by "impassioned" I did not mean argumentative, not that that's a bad thing. I meant "with deep feeling"! Thus, you are an impassioned fan of Brokeback Mountain; rather, an impassioned student of BBM!  Thank you again for your insights. Stephen.
"One more chain to break to get closer to you"

Offline ethan

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #117 on: Mar 13, 2006, 02:28 PM »
I am so happy for the gay community that they now have a love story with a love scene that parallels any love scene in the heterosexual world.  You all deserve it.  What a tribute to you all that the most powerful love story of all time (in my estimation) is a homosexual love story!   This tenderness is something we are ALL looking for.  Thepoignancy of Ennis and Jack's love transcends all sexual orientations.  The acting was superb.  How many of us have said that these characters are REAL to us. 

Do any of the people involved in this story and movie know of the magnitude of this website, the magnitude of its membership and the extent of the influence this movie has had on our lives?

This is off topic but Nancy, you are correct and thank you for acknowledging this. It is a movie to be proud of - a true portrayal of same sex love and sometimes I can't stop wondering that BBM has been made to the big screen. I just want it to last.

I don't know what BBM crew and cast have anticipated the magnitude. I certainly did not and I am forever grateful to those involved in the movie and the members in this forum. You have enriched my life. Thank you -- thank you.

Quote from: Patriot1
Ethan, I don't think he was trying to deny his love for Jack, he knew all to well he loved Jack.  I think he was either not aware or couldn't admit he was IN LOVE with another man.  That would make him a queer and we know he could never admit that.

When someone doesn't admit, he is in deniel as far as I am concerned. Your post seems to suggest that Ennis saw his relationship with Jack as a friendship? He didn't know how much Jack loved him until he saw the shirts?
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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #118 on: Mar 13, 2006, 02:45 PM »
The shirts is maybe one of the most powerful symbols in the movie and the short story as well, Annie describe that moment as if they were one skin. I have read all of your thoughts and I need to say that all of yours post have a point. That is what makes this story almost unforgettable if that you are the judge, witness and it is your decision. Like Ennis at the end for all of us there is a “big open space on what we know and we want to believe”

All of us agreed in one thing “the love between them” and it was show on their way to keep seeing each other for 20 years. It was not difficult for them they face their own daemons and that are what happen all those years you see that Ennis were Fear and Denial and that is the reason that most of the people is more identified with Jack, but the fact is that Ennis is the most human character because he face all the things that we all face during our life. I am 23 years old maybe I don’t know nothing about life but from what I have seeing and listen from others there are times that we all hide and try to create our own Eden or Nirvana, a place that we can escape. That was Jack to Ennis he loved Jack, but he wasn’t prepare to be with him and share a live. He had a hard life and he found beautiful moments with Jack which make him feel Human.

Jack in the other hand he was always open for Ennis during all the time they spent together Jack knew what he want from Ennis. But he also was afraid of Ennis point of view he only mentions Ennis like one or twice that they both should be together and he always knew Ennis reaction. But for him that was not enough he wants to have someone to have next to him on his bed and watch every night. He thought that he was not going to have that with Ennis never, and he decided to go on. We would never know if he would do it or no, but I’m of those romantic persons that think that he would never give up Ennis and that one day they will be together. But it is our personal point of view

To me and I have said this multiple, he never decided he could have think about it but decide it never after all Love is a force of Nature that can’t be stopped.

Offline Stephen

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #119 on: Mar 13, 2006, 02:45 PM »
Thank you, Jackie 62, for your post; it got me thinking AGAIN about so many details, and the tricky territory between Annie Proulx's story and the film! Now, back to the drawing board.
"One more chain to break to get closer to you"