Author Topic: When did Jack decide? (Read 75966 times)

jerasjr · « **on:** Feb 22, 2006, 05:03 PM »

After 20 years of loving Ennis, Jack at some point decides he must move on... for me this is set at the dance with Lurleen. He asks LaShawn to dance, and you hear 2 lines of a song (softly) in the background. It was only after listening to the soundtrack, that I discoverd that the song was "I don't want to say goodbye". It seemed to me that this was the time that Jack had to let go of Ennis and not without regret. The song is excellent, it's actually my favorite.

aimi15 · « **Reply #1 on:** Feb 22, 2006, 05:07 PM »

I also love this song. In fact when i first bought my copy of the soundtrack i couldn't place the song. When i did though i thought 'Jacks finally letting him go' So sad, but such a beautiful track. :'(

Toadily · « **Reply #2 on:** Feb 22, 2006, 05:08 PM »

We've gone over there here before. It's hard to tell, I mean obviously he hooks up with the guy so was trying to move on. But also note when Jack's father said Jack had talked of having that guy up at the ranch but it never happened. So he may have been trying to move on but it wasn't happening in real life. But yes, I think it's obvious he was looking for a change. Ennis *could* have gone with things staying status quo forever.

aimi15 · « **Reply #3 on:** Feb 22, 2006, 05:37 PM »

Quote from: sharve on Feb 22, 2006, 05:33 PM

Jack decides to move on after their fallout the last time he and Ennis were together. Ennis cancels the August meeting after telling him again that they will never be able to be together. It just sinks in for Jack. For 15 years Jack always believed and wanted to believe that it was possible and for 15 years Ennis refused to believe that it could be. Jack, frustrated, finally has to accept that it never will be and probably says something equivalent to "screw you Ennis del Mar, go f**k yourself, I've had it". He is, though, just torn apart. If you look at the way he looks at Ennis while Ennis is driving off, you can see in his expression that he has decided that this is the last time he will ever see him, but he doesn't love him less for that, because he is so consumed by his love for Ennis.

In that scene you see him as a young man watching Ennis ride off with such tenderness and then it cuts back to him older, resigned to losing Ennis. His face in this scene is so old, its like a mask so grim and hardened - i would have liked to have seen how Ennis looked driving away from him, so many times in this film you get left wanting more from it - maybe thats the true beauty of it.

CherryCake · « **Reply #4 on:** Feb 22, 2006, 07:26 PM »

I would offer one small scene that I think is the very first where Jack just got an inkling that he maybe not be able to have Ennis the way he wants him.
After the first fishing trip, after the four years apart, Jack says: "You and Alma. That's a life" and Ennis responds with : 'You shut up about Alma, it ain't her fault'
Look at Jack.
He stares at Ennis for at least 6 seconds before casting his eyes down. 6 seconds of close up is significant. I think this is where Jack is realizing something. I am not sure what that is, thought. Did anyone else notice this?
Thoughts?

rikcub · « **Reply #5 on:** Feb 22, 2006, 09:10 PM »

Quote from: jerasjr on Feb 22, 2006, 05:03 PM

After 20 years of loving Ennis, Jack at some point decides he must move on... for me this is set at the dance with Lurleen. He asks LaShawn to dance, and you hear 2 lines of a song (softly) in the background. It was only after listening to the soundtrack, that I discoverd that the song was "I don't want to say goodbye". It seemed to me that this was the time that Jack had to let go of Ennis and not without regret. The song is excellent, it's actually my favorite.

I thought Jack really had hope until driving to Wyoming after hearing about the divorce. When he drives away in tears...toward Mexico...I think that is when he actually started to let go...it was a long process. Truthfully I doubt he ever really let go...he would have gone back to Ennis in a heartbeat...but I do think that after this particular scene he is starting to make some tough decisions. :'( :'( :'(

BBBOY · « **Reply #6 on:** Feb 22, 2006, 09:33 PM »

I don't think Jack will ever give up on Ennis, he's caught no matter how hard he tries to fish in other ponds. Jack is clearly gay if you read Annie's story. In the story Ennis says, "I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you." (He's been j**kin off over the years thinking of Jack) "You do it with other guys? Jack?"

" "Shit no," said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls. not rolling his own." " I think that is what the scene with the rodeo clown at the bar was all about. Jack hit on him and was rebuffed, walked away only to probably try somewhere else. BUT, for all his sexual needs, his most important emotional needs were with Ennis. The layers and layers of this film and story just blow me away.

jackie62 · « **Reply #7 on:** Feb 23, 2006, 06:31 PM »

I guess we won't ever know --- but maybe Jack did think about being with Randall but not as a free choice. I wonder did he think this could end the pain for at least one of them ,i.e. meet Ennis's plea to be left alone.

But my opinion is he couldn't have done it --- or not for long --- this is based on some of the dialogue.

The scene that kills me is the last night together and Jacks words ,"The truth is --- sometimes i miss you so much i can hardly stand it". He already knows the pain of not having Ennis with him , how could he give him up completely??

Also the clincher for me is the "I wish i knew how to quit you"--- with all the crap they've both been thru , Jack is so much a part of this person he wouldn't exist without him.

Its like in the short story , after the break down they find a way to put the pieces back ---but not the same as before. Declarations, fears expressed , don't bring resolution .
The tragedy is there was no way out --- and I think thats what I see on Jack's face as he watches Ennis drive away.

frenchcda · « **Reply #8 on:** Feb 23, 2006, 06:47 PM »

Quote from: BBBOY on Feb 22, 2006, 09:33 PM

I don't think Jack will ever give up on Ennis, he's caught no matter how hard he tries to fish in other ponds. Jack is clearly gay if you read Annie's story. In the story Ennis says, "I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you." (He's been j**kin off over the years thinking of Jack) "You do it with other guys? Jack?"

" "Shit no," said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls. not rolling his own." " I think that is what the scene with the rodeo clown at the bar was all about. Jack hit on him and was rebuffed, walked away only to probably try somewhere else. BUT, for all his sexual needs, his most important emotional needs were with Ennis. The layers and layers of this film and story just blow me away.

excellent quote, also what still bothers me is the whole thing with Randell, I still have a feeling that Laureen was behind all of that nonesense, I paid close attention to that scene yesterday, and it comes across as Randell was simply prodding Jack so to let Laureen know that her Hubby was up to no good, although she surely had some indication as described in the book. any thought on this???

BBBOY · « **Reply #9 on:** Feb 23, 2006, 06:50 PM »

".....they torqued things almost to where they had been, for what they'd said was now news. Nothing ended, nothing begun nothing resolved." The look on Jack's face as Ennis drove away.......love.....resignation.....knowing he would continue to do what he did when not with Ennis just to survive. Knowing that it was what he had with Ennis that mattered. Damn, I'm crying again!

kcristob · « **Reply #10 on:** Feb 23, 2006, 06:57 PM »

Quote from: BBBOY on Feb 23, 2006, 06:50 PM

Damn, I'm crying again!

Me too. Not real kosher at my desk. Thank God everyone's got a cold.

Did Jack ever really give up on Ennis? I don't think so. But I do think that a weariness set in - for both men that was kind of a slow death. I don't mean to make light of their love. Obviously it stood the test of time, and given more time, I think it would have stood that test.

But, it was getting old for Jack.

BBBOY · « **Reply #11 on:** Feb 23, 2006, 09:15 PM »

I think Ennis was on the edge of tipping over to Jack's way of thinking, else why did he dump Cassie? Times had changed and so had our boys. But Jack had to have what he couldn't get from Ennis and it killed him. Remember, they were only 39, still young and vital. I'm 58 and still feel young with the vital dragging it's ass a little bit.

madisondel · « **Reply #12 on:** Feb 23, 2006, 09:32 PM »

Quote from: frenchcda on Feb 23, 2006, 06:47 PM

Quote from: BBBOY on Feb 22, 2006, 09:33 PM
I don't think Jack will ever give up on Ennis, he's caught no matter how hard he tries to fish in other ponds. Jack is clearly gay if you read Annie's story. In the story Ennis says, "I never had no thoughts a doin it with another guy except I sure wrang it out a hunderd times thinkin about you." (He's been j**kin off over the years thinking of Jack) "You do it with other guys? Jack?"

" "Shit no," said Jack, who had been riding more than bulls. not rolling his own." " I think that is what the scene with the rodeo clown at the bar was all about. Jack hit on him and was rebuffed, walked away only to probably try somewhere else. BUT, for all his sexual needs, his most important emotional needs were with Ennis. The layers and layers of this film and story just blow me away.
excellent quote, also what still bothers me is the whole thing with Randell, I still have a feeling that Laureen was behind all of that nonesense, I paid close attention to that scene yesterday, and it comes across as Randell was simply prodding Jack so to let Laureen know that her Hubby was up to no good, although she surely had some indication as described in the book. any thought on this???

OK.. I know this is way out there, but hear me out...maybe somewhere in Jack's subconscious, maybe he didn't even realize it, he wanted to get caught and have happen to him what happened to the man in Ennis' story. Maybe that was the only way he knew how to quit Ennis, just to not exist anymore and be in pain I know it is far fetched, but I have thought on this a lot and it keeps coming up in my mind? I don't know!

ragtimecowboy · « **Reply #13 on:** Feb 23, 2006, 11:21 PM »

If you love someone, set them free. If they come back to you, then their yours. If they don't, they never were. Ennis told Jack he couldn't stand this anymore. The last thing Jack would ever want to do was cause him any more pain. So he decided to give Ennis a chance to be free. Ennis loved Jack so much that he was willing to return to him. The proof was written on the postcard he sent to Jack about their next meeting.

kcristob · « **Reply #14 on:** Feb 24, 2006, 12:05 PM »

OK.. I know this is way out there, but hear me out...maybe somewhere in Jack's subconscious, maybe he didn't even realize it, he wanted to get caught and have happen to him what happened to the man in Ennis' story. Maybe that was the only way he knew how to quit Ennis, just to not exist anymore and be in pain I know it is far fetched, but I have thought on this a lot and it keeps coming up in my mind? I don't know!

Quote

I think this is a very interesting idea. Thanks for putting it out there.

Titus · « **Reply #15 on:** Feb 24, 2006, 05:53 PM »

Jack, as his father reminded us, wanted to bring Randall up to Lightning Flat and divorce Madame Calculator. That last scene with Ennis breaking down "Why can't you just let me be" broke Jack's heart, him wanting so badly what Ennis could never give him. Sometimes we have to let those we love go, and maybe he got to this point because he couldn't keep hurting Ennis. :'( Titus.

aimi15 · « **Reply #16 on:** Feb 24, 2006, 06:04 PM »

I agree Titus. During the film we see times when Ennis is hurting and Jack tries as best he can to comfort him, often being pushed away. I think he reached a stage where he thought of himself as the thorn in Ennis' side and their relationship could never be more than just snatched moments. The realisation of this prompted him to try and make a life for himself and hopefully give Ennis some peace, but IMO Ennis couldn't find peace without Jack. Jack COULD try and move on and make something of a new life with Randall (all the time loving Ennis of course) but Ennis could never rekindle these feelings with someone else. Jack WAS love to Ennis and no-one else could compete x :'(

Soldier-of-Rome · « **Reply #17 on:** Feb 24, 2006, 07:24 PM »

Lots of interesting ideas here. I do believe, though, that Jack was almost resigned when he was rejected by Ennis after the Divorce. He went to Mexico for spite - a kind of ending and new beginning. The conflist (the film and ss are full of confict) is that Jack can't just let go - can't just release him. He does as a pragmatic gesture, but his heart is consumed with this man. After he scold Ennis, the last time they see each other, Jack is venting this conflict and frustration but look at how he reacts as soon as Ennis reacts. He can't stand to see Ennis in pain ... hurt, even at the expense of his own feelings. I think Jack would have gone on with the status quo because he was so consumed with Ennis.

The associated point to all this is that Jack "tried" to disclose to Ennis what he was doing. Ennis talked of putting the blocks on some girl in Riverton. Jack's version is that he is doing the neighbor's ranch foreman's wife or something - when he's actually doing the ranch foreman. I thought this was very telling - Jack wouldn't be able to stand how Ennis would react, but although somehwat resigned, wasn't going to give up even the faintest hint of a shot with Ennis. All yuo have to do is think about how Jack looks at Ennis in his flashback of the 1st time on Brokeback when Ennis hugs him from behind "satisfying some shared and sexless hunger" and Ennis rides away. And ,,, the way Ennis' life ends up, alone, beaten down, consumed with only a memory of what could have been ...

roguejedi · « **Reply #18 on:** Feb 24, 2006, 10:54 PM »

actually, when i saw the movie the first time, when jack's dad told ennis that jack "was going to bring another one here" i thought it was like an insult. the reason is that...if ennis was that special to jack, and jack wanted to build his whole life with ennis, how the heck could jack just pick someone else to replace ennis like that?

?? i was all choked up by that scene...

but when ennis went upstairs to discover the two shirts, i've realized that hey...jack didn't move on at all. if he had, then those 2 shirts would have been gone, meaning, he WAS READY to move on with someone else...

regardless, it's sooo sad :-( :-(

drew

ethan · « **Reply #19 on:** Feb 24, 2006, 10:59 PM »

Quote from: roguejedi on Feb 24, 2006, 10:54 PM

actually, when i saw the movie the first time, when jack's dad told ennis that jack "was going to bring another one here" i thought it was like an insult. the reason is that...if ennis was that special to jack, and jack wanted to build his whole life with ennis, how the heck could jack just pick someone else to replace ennis like that??? i was all choked up by that scene...

but when ennis went upstairs to discover the two shirts, i've realized that hey...jack didn't move on at all. if he had, then those 2 shirts would have been gone, meaning, he WAS READY to move on with someone else...

regardless, it's sooo sad :-( :-(

drew

Hi drew, welcome and thanks for your first post. No one knows for sure if Jack was going to bring another fellow to built the ranch. One thing is for sure though Jack's love for Ennis didn't change as you have suggested.

Welcome and enjoy your time here.

roguejedi · « **Reply #20 on:** Feb 24, 2006, 11:23 PM »

Hi ethan

Thank you for welcoming me to the Board

yes, such a beautiful love story...but so sad :'(

drew

Titus · « **Reply #21 on:** Feb 25, 2006, 08:37 AM »

But often we love someone we can't have and end up "making do" with the one we're with. I wouldn't have minded curling up with Randall Malone

. Jack always loved Ennis, but that didn't keep him faithful. Sometimes when you love someone that much, you just got to "leave'em be". Titus.

roguejedi · « **Reply #22 on:** Feb 25, 2006, 11:55 AM »

Titus, weally?

we gotta make-do with what we have, rather than whom we want. *sigh* i'm too much of a romanticist, rather than a realist :-)

drew

Titus · « **Reply #23 on:** Feb 25, 2006, 04:44 PM »

Quote

Titus, weally? we gotta make-do with what we have, rather than whom we want. *sigh*

Not speaking from my own personal experience, but yeah, life is full of unhappy people who lost and settled. Jack could never have all of Ennis, it was measured and doled out once or twice a year, so he made do best he could in Mexican alleyways and with hunky cowboy Malone as substitutes. All a really "unsatisfactory situation", but that's my take on it. How else can you love someone totally and screw everybody else?

Cheers, Titus.

roguejedi · « **Reply #24 on:** Feb 25, 2006, 07:47 PM »

Hey Titus... i'm not sure how to respond to ur posting...i guess, i've never been that deeply in love before, to face that difficult decision...do i wait for ennis, or move one with someone else?

but...since that story was so beautiful, that part 'bout jack moving on...at first, it was really painful for me to take...but later, i've realized that jack didn't move on... :-)

drew

Jack del Sur · « **Reply #25 on:** Feb 26, 2006, 10:07 PM »

Quote from: roguejedi on Feb 25, 2006, 07:47 PM

Hey Titus... i'm not sure how to respond to ur posting...i guess, i've never been that deeply in love before, to face that difficult decision...do i wait for ennis, or move one with someone else? but...since that story was so beautiful, that part 'bout jack moving on...at first, it was really painful for me to take...but later, i've realized that jack didn't move on... :-)

drew

Jack had sex with the mexican boy just to take revenge. He drove a lot of hours crying in despair. He was out of control

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #26 on:** Feb 26, 2006, 10:20 PM »

Madisondel,

OK.. I know this is way out there, but hear me out...maybe somewhere in Jack's subconscious, maybe he didn't even realize it, he wanted to get caught and have happen to him what happened to the man in Ennis' story. Maybe that was the only way he knew how to quit Ennis, just to not exist anymore and be in pain I know it is far fetched, but I have thought on this a lot and it keeps coming up in my mind? I don't know!

I don't think it's way out there. I was thinking along the lines of Jack being so brokenhearted that he got reckless and "slipped up".

chameau · « **Reply #27 on:** Feb 26, 2006, 10:33 PM »

Quote

Jack had sex with the mexican boy just to take revenge. He drove a lot of hours crying in despair. He was out of control

I agree, don't forget his line:

Tell you what... truth is, sometimes I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it...

Jack never decided, he tried some other ways but, he was always coming back to Ennis, he loved him.

madisondel · « **Reply #28 on:** Feb 26, 2006, 11:08 PM »

Quote from: LuvJackNasty on Feb 26, 2006, 10:20 PM

Madisondel,

OK.. I know this is way out there, but hear me out...maybe somewhere in Jack's subconscious, maybe he didn't even realize it, he wanted to get caught and have happen to him what happened to the man in Ennis' story. Maybe that was the only way he knew how to quit Ennis, just to not exist anymore and be in pain I know it is far fetched, but I have thought on this a lot and it keeps coming up in my mind? I don't know!

I don't think it's way out there. I was thinking along the lines of Jack being so brokenhearted that he got reckless and "slipped up".

Yea. He was just so desperate. I guess that is another thing to love about this movie...it actually makes you think! So many people can see so many different things, there are so many possibilities. Poor Jack & Ennis...they were so tortured! And now so am I!

romeshvr · « **Reply #29 on:** Feb 27, 2006, 12:30 AM »

I guess it happens. Jake G mentioned in an interview that Jack died when he knew that he would never be able have the 'sweet life' with Ennis. This could have been in the divorce scene or the last scene. I suppose when one knows they can't be with the one they truly love nothing really matters and they become careless. That is if he died the way Ennis thinks.

Author Topic: When did Jack decide? (Read 75966 times)

aimi15

aimi15

aimi15

romeshvr