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Author Topic: When did Jack decide?  (Read 76035 times)

Offline madisondel

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #30 on: Feb 27, 2006, 12:34 PM »
Quote from: romeshvr on Feb 27, 2006, 12:30 AM
I guess it happens.  Jake G mentioned in an interview that Jack died when he knew that he would never be able have the 'sweet life' with Ennis.  This could have been in the divorce scene or the last scene.  I suppose when one knows they can't be with the one they truly love nothing really matters and they become careless.  That is if he died the way Ennis thinks.

I wish we could know more about that scene in the previews that is not in the movie. The one with the two men in it, they look like they are at a garage or somthing like that. I keep going back and forth. Sometimes I think that it is just Ennis' imagination beacuse of what he saw and then other times I think "That is just such a freaky way to die" and my mind goes back to the missing scene.
I'm sorry, I'm getting off on another subject.
Either way, Annie Proulx and Ang Lee are genius.
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Offline Lilie

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #31 on: Feb 27, 2006, 04:40 PM »
Quote
OK.. I know this is way out there, but hear me out...maybe somewhere in Jack's subconscious, maybe he didn't even realize it, he wanted to get caught and have happen to him what happened to the man in Ennis' story. Maybe that was the only way he knew how to quit Ennis, just to not exist anymore and be in pain  I know it is far fetched, but I have thought on this a lot and it keeps coming up in my mind? I don't know!

This doesn't seem so out there, if you ask me. Like romeshvr mentioned, Jake once said that Jack died when he knew he couldn't live with Ennis. On second viewing, it really hit me that he was right. I mean, look at his face when Ennis drives away in their last scene. This is a man who's dead inside. I think his resignation came slowly with time - trying to get his needs elsewhere, trying to settle with someone else, but I think he still hung on this tiny hope that maybe it would happen. But after that scene, I believe he realized he had to let him go. And there's no way he could fully live after this.
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Offline Toadily

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #32 on: Feb 27, 2006, 04:45 PM »
I remember when Diana talked about how lonliness was the biggest disease
there is.  I think Jack had had enough of it. 
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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #33 on: Feb 27, 2006, 04:51 PM »
In the last scene when they are together the change in Jack was so saddening - he looked  so deflated leaning against his truck - all his lingering hopes had finally ebbed away in that last exchange and he looked how he felt - sad, dejected, OLD. Utterly heartbreaking scene  :'(
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Offline BBBOY

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #34 on: Feb 28, 2006, 10:26 PM »
[[/quote]

This doesn't seem so out there, if you ask me. Like romeshvr mentioned, Jake once said that Jack died when he knew he couldn't live with Ennis. On second viewing, it really hit me that he was right. I mean, look at his face when Ennis drives away in their last scene. This is a man who's dead inside. I think his resignation came slowly with time - trying to get his needs elsewhere, trying to settle with someone else, but I think he still hung on this tiny hope that maybe it would happen. But after that scene, I believe he realized he had to let him go. And there's no way he could fully live after this.
Quote

OMG I never thought of this but it seems so right the way you put it. Jack commited a kind of suicide and in the end Ennis must have understood.  Tears falling like rain now.  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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Ennis, riding against the wind back to the sheep in the treacherous, drunken darken light, thought he'd never had such a good time, felt he could paw the white out of the moon.

Offline guaranain

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #35 on: Mar 01, 2006, 01:28 AM »
For me after my 8th viewing today, he made up his mind to move on, to "let [Ennis] be"  as he is standing there after their fight as he watches him drive away.  He's planning it in his head at that time.  If you remember right before the fight he said he's going to go visit his parents, this would be the time old man twist mentioned that jack said about bringing the neighbor up etc. 

So what I think happened, is in that fight Jack knew he could no longer do it, Ennis wouldn't change and to keep them both from going through anymore pain, he dedided that he would move on and go after the neighbor.  He then told his parents about it.  Once back in texas, he made his move, which I'm assuming didn't go over as he expected and what got him killed.  I wasn't convinced in the bench scene the neighbor was flirting, but i can easy see that jack would have thought of it that way.

I like to think, that even if things did work out for jack, that when he got ennis's postcard he'd still have run back to him
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Offline Bob

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #36 on: Mar 01, 2006, 10:24 AM »
Some interesting thoughts here - but I still feel that Jack didn't totally give up on Ennis - In the book for that scene it states: "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved".  Yes, Jack may have tried/thought about moving on but as we find out from the "Old Man" who I think is trying to make Ennis feel bad - but if Jack had tried to move on don't you think he would have destroyed the shirts? - maybe that's what the mother is trying to tell/show Ennis - that Jack cared enough to still hold on to the shirts.
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Offline Stephen

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #37 on: Mar 01, 2006, 10:29 AM »
Yes, the film is so subtle with countless hints at so many subtexts that we can go on forever contemplating, wondering, guessing, and hoping! Maybe that's the magic of Ang Lee's film.   No matter what, Brokeback Mountain, though it can't be found on any map, remains a bittersweet heart-breaking story that we'll carry with us forever. 
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Offline Cowboy Cody

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #38 on: Mar 01, 2006, 12:06 PM »
This posting is makin the Cowboy mighty sad at work  :'(
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Offline Stephen

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #39 on: Mar 01, 2006, 12:38 PM »
don't be sad at work! Be joyous that Ang Lee's magnificent film has brought us all together, sharing our thoughts, insights, and feelings.
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Offline Titus

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #40 on: Mar 01, 2006, 01:45 PM »
Quote
I wasn't convinced in the bench scene the neighbor was flirting, but I can easy see that jack would have thought of it that way.
  Malone was fishing, but it wasn't for Bass!  I think the door is wide open for someone else to figure out what was going on between the two of them.  Jack, as you remember, was already screwing half of Mexico, had even been up to sex with other guys during the first four years he was apart from Ennis (riding more than bulls-AP).  In a small podunk like Childress it only takes a little suspicion for things to turn nasty.  I can't imagine LaShawn being the soul of discretion if she found randall out.

Jack must have taken Randall seriously, gotten pretty involved if he told his parents about his scheme to get divorced and bring him up to Lightning Flat.  You don't do that sort of life planning if you haven't even shagged yet.  I think Randall was his get out so he could leave Ennis in peace.  Whether he could actually do it is another question.  We have to remember that Annie Proulx leaves a lot of doors open as to what could have happened.  She wants us to wrestle with all the possibilities and implications, not have it all sorted and tidy.  That's what makes this story so damn hard to take.  Titus.
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Offline Toadily

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #41 on: Mar 01, 2006, 01:57 PM »
Quote from: Titus on Mar 01, 2006, 01:45 PM
Quote
I wasn't convinced in the bench scene the neighbor was flirting, but I can easy see that jack would have thought of it that way.
  Malone was fishing, but it wasn't for Bass!  I think the door is wide open for someone else to figure out what was going on between the two of them.  Jack, as you remember, was already screwing half of Mexico, had even been up to sex with other guys during the first four years he was apart from Ennis (riding more than bulls-AP).  In a small podunk like Childress it only takes a little suspicion for things to turn nasty.  I can't imagine LaShawn being the soul of discretion if she found randall out.

Jack must have taken Randall seriously, gotten pretty involved if he told his parents about his scheme to get divorced and bring him up to Lightning Flat.  You don't do that sort of life planning if you haven't even shagged yet.  I think Randall was his get out so he could leave Ennis in peace.  Whether he could actually do it is another question.  We have to remember that Annie Proulx leaves a lot of doors open as to what could have happened.  She wants us to wrestle with all the possibilities and implications, not have it all sorted and tidy.  That's what makes this story so damn hard to take.  Titus.

That was really well put.  I think you nailed it on the head.  I do think that the Randall thing didn't work out though since Jack's dad said it never came to pass.  It was an attempt to leave, which then I think led to
Jack's death somehow.  I think that is where he got "found out".  Maybe he and Randall were seen together? 
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Offline Lilie

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #42 on: Mar 01, 2006, 02:21 PM »
Quote from: Bob on Mar 01, 2006, 10:24 AM
Some interesting thoughts here - but I still feel that Jack didn't totally give up on Ennis - In the book for that scene it states: "Nothing ended, nothing begun, nothing resolved".  Yes, Jack may have tried/thought about moving on but as we find out from the "Old Man" who I think is trying to make Ennis feel bad - but if Jack had tried to move on don't you think he would have destroyed the shirts? - maybe that's what the mother is trying to tell/show Ennis - that Jack cared enough to still hold on to the shirts.

Yes. I agree with you to a point. He didn't really give up on Ennis and his love for him - but I'm sure he knew there was no way Ennis would ever accept to live together, to live their love openly. After their fight, he understood that, I think. Of course, he couldn't let go, but I believe something in him died when he realized he'd never really be with Ennis. When he tried to move on, his heart wasn't really in it. We all know that one sign from Ennis, and he would have gone to him without a second thought. But I don't think he had any hope left. Their fight was the last straw.

Personnally, when Jack talks about the rancher's wife to Ennis, I was pretty sure it was really about Randall. Whether he decided to live with him before or after the fight, I can't really figure out. But it was just settling.

Quote
Yes, the film is so subtle with countless hints at so many subtexts that we can go on forever contemplating, wondering, guessing, and hoping! Maybe that's the magic of Ang Lee's film.   No matter what, Brokeback Mountain, though it can't be found on any map, remains a bittersweet heart-breaking story that we'll carry with us forever. 

I love this post, and this is what I love about this story. There's so many subtleties in it. We all have different thoughts about it, because we're all different people. And we're all right. That's the beauty of it.
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Offline Bob

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #43 on: Mar 02, 2006, 10:51 PM »
Lilie, I do agree with you on Randall being the "rancher's wife"  I thought that that's who Jack was talking about the first time I saw the movie.
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Offline sam

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #44 on: Mar 02, 2006, 11:57 PM »
Quote from: ragtimecowboy on Feb 23, 2006, 11:21 PM
If you love someone, set them free. If they come back to you, then their yours. If they don't, they never were. Ennis told Jack he couldn't stand this anymore. The last thing Jack would ever want to do was cause him any more pain. So he decided to give Ennis a chance to be free. Ennis loved Jack so much that he was willing to return to him. The proof was written on the postcard he sent to Jack about  their next meeting.

Ennis: "Sorry I can't stand much anymore, Jack..."

Ohhhhh...reading this makes me cry again.  I think you are right.
« Last Edit: Mar 03, 2006, 12:06 AM by sam »
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Offline sam

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #45 on: Mar 03, 2006, 12:03 AM »
Quote from: chameau on Feb 26, 2006, 10:33 PM

I agree, don't forget his line:

Tell you what... truth is, sometimes I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it...

Jack never decided, he tried some other ways but, he was always coming back to Ennis, he loved him.

Ahhhh...so much like the lyric's to the song ("Melissa"-Allman Brothers Band) playing in the background when Ennis and Cassie dance while Alma Jr. waits at the table...

"Knowing many, loving none,"
"Bearing sorrow havin' fun,"
"But back home he'll always run,"

(...to his true love: Ennis...)

sam-->bawling now...
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Offline chameau

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #46 on: Mar 03, 2006, 12:06 AM »
Quote from: sam on Mar 03, 2006, 12:03 AM
Quote from: chameau on Feb 26, 2006, 10:33 PM

I agree, don't forget his line:

Tell you what... truth is, sometimes I miss you so bad I can hardly stand it...

Jack never decided, he tried some other ways but, he was always coming back to Ennis, he loved him.

Ahhhh...so much like the lyric's to the song ("Melissa"-Allman Brothers Band) playing in the background when Ennis and Cassie dance while Alma Jr. waits at the table...

"Knowing many, loving none,"
"Bearing sorrow havin' fun,"
"But back home he'll always run,"

(...to his true love: Ennis...)

sam-->bawling now...

Same here,

SOB!  :'( :'( :'(
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Offline sam

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #47 on: Mar 03, 2006, 12:28 AM »
Lemme hug you, you big ole softy cowboy...we can sob together... :-*
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Offline jerasjr

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #48 on: Mar 03, 2006, 07:03 AM »
Sam, I thought the song playing while they were acually dncing was "I don't want to say goodbye" with Teddy thompson...then the scen dissoves to Jake and Randall outside.  To me this was a aturninga point, mayabe the turning point - maybe it's jsut giving us a hint of what's to come.
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Offline sam

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #49 on: Mar 04, 2006, 03:27 AM »
Quote from: jerasjr on Mar 03, 2006, 07:03 AM
Sam, I thought the song playing while they were acually dncing was "I don't want to say goodbye" with Teddy thompson...then the scen dissoves to Jake and Randall outside.  To me this was a aturninga point, mayabe the turning point - maybe it's jsut giving us a hint of what's to come.

hi jerasjr.!

Nope, "I Don't Want To Say Goodbye" by Teddy Thompson is the song that is playing while Jack dances with Lashawn. (A completely different scene.)

I was referring to the other scene where Ennis picks up Alma Jr. for the weekly outing (along with Cassie).  The scene where Cassie asks Alma Jr. if she thinks Ennis will ever settle down again...

The two women have their short and private 'girl-to-girl' conversation:

Cassie: "Your daddy ever goin' a see fit to settle down again?"
Alma Jr.: "I don't know..."
Alma Jr.: "Maybe he's not the marryin' kind."
Cassie: "You don't think so? Or you don't think I'm the one for him?"
Alma Jr.: "You're good enough..."
Cassie" "You don't say much, but you get your point across!"
Alma Jr.: "Sorry. I didn't mean to be rude."

Then, Ennis returns to the table and Cassie grabs his arm and pulls him up to the dance floor while saying:

"Uh, you're stayin' on your feet, cowboy!"

The saddish tune playing from the jukebox while they dance in this one is: "Melissa". ;)
« Last Edit: Mar 05, 2006, 04:07 AM by sam »
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Offline sam

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #50 on: Mar 04, 2006, 04:11 AM »
Quote

He didn't really give up on Ennis and his love for him - but I'm sure he knew there was no way Ennis would ever accept to live together, to live their love openly. After their fight, he understood that, I think. Of course, he couldn't let go, but I believe something in him died when he realized he'd never really be with Ennis. When he tried to move on, his heart wasn't really in it. We all know that one sign from Ennis, and he would have gone to him without a second thought. But I don't think he had any hope left. Their fight was the last straw.

Personnally, when Jack talks about the rancher's wife to Ennis, I was pretty sure it was really about Randall. Whether he decided to live with him before or after the fight, I can't really figure out.


Yes, I agree with you Lilie.  I don't think that Jack 'gave-up' on Ennis for 100%.  I think that he just resigned himself at that moment in time to what you say: that there was no way Ennis would ever accept to live together, to live their love openly...

I therefore think that he (taking into consideration what Ennis had said to him at the end of their fight on the Mountain: "Sorry I can't stand much anymore, Jack.") decided to make do with what we often call in Life: "second best"...

(Sam wipes a tear away here...)

I think that Jack, shocked and deeply pained by Ennis' inner turmoil regarding their relationship (revealed to him during that final fight on the Mountain...) finally decides to let Ennis go free...purely and completely out of Love...

And that he decides to move-on with his own life at that moment, only now replacing 'Ennis' with 'Randall'...(-->Randall being: the second best choice)

Of course, this is NOT what Jack truly wanted...what he had hoped for all those years...but...

like many of the other characters in this multi-facetted film who had had to also make do with 'second-best' (Alma, Lureen!)...he resigns himself to embracing 'second best' (as best he could)...

And, we all know what happens to you when you have to decide for just 'second best'...you slowly lose interest...get demotivated...become depressed...and feel sad...

which sometimes leads to: becoming 'careless' or 'sloppy' in area's where previously you were always 'sharp' and 'alert'... It's so easy to then take on a lightly stoic:  "I just don't care anymore..."  attitude...

Perhaps, this is what happened that led to Jack's tragic ending...

Maybe he 'approached' the wrong guys (those "killer mechanics"?)...'said' the wrong thing....'gave-out' the wrong impression...leading to:

the dreaded 'tire iron' scene...  BIG SIGH!

We will never know for sure...it's all up to the viewer's personal interpretation.  Proulx, McMurtry and Ossana, Lee all made sure of this...

That's what makes this such a wonderful picture! It's all left up to the audience's discretion.

If you ask me, I don't think that Jack ever entirely gives up on Ennis.  I think...that he still hopes that someday...maybe, long, long aways in the future...that maybe Ennis will have a change of mind...

I think that no matter what happens on 'the outside'/'the surface' (for example: eventually moving to Lightning Flat with Randall...), deep down inside, Jack still holds on to this sliver of hope...(that's why he never discards the two shirts)

It's truly heartbreaking that now that Jack is gone...we will never know...Jack died young...a mere 39...with a crack in his heart...unfulfilled...never ever having a full chance to resolve this poignant issue...

Jack: unresolved, unfulfilled...with lead in his heart...
Ennis: idem ditto

And that's what makes this story so awfully, awfully sad...

BM: shows us how ignorance and intolerance can force people to deny their love and deny who they are...shows us what can happen when love is hidden or denied...and spins us a tale of love stumbled into, love thwarted, and love held sorrowfully in the heart...

sam





« Last Edit: Mar 05, 2006, 04:27 AM by sam »
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Offline jerasjr

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #51 on: Mar 04, 2006, 07:01 AM »
Sam, you're right...I don't want to say goodbye, plays through my head so much that it seems to be part of every scene.
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Offline Titus

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #52 on: Mar 04, 2006, 08:34 AM »
Oh, Sam, you're making me  :'( :'( :'(!  You are soooo right!  Spot on, mate!  What makes it all so incredibly tragic.  Titus.
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Offline Rod

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #53 on: Mar 04, 2006, 09:39 AM »
Like some I think Jack had enough when he went to Mexico...but I gotta wonder...I know Jack would have always loved Ennis, that's a fact to me...but if he hadn't died....would he have ended up at his Daddy's place with the foreman or someone else?  I dont know the exact time frame....did his death keep his from the foreman and him moving up there?
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Offline LuvJackNasty

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #54 on: Mar 04, 2006, 04:13 PM »
Sam,

Your post made me cry!  :'(
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Offline n061857

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #55 on: Mar 04, 2006, 04:39 PM »
Quote from: BBBOY on Feb 28, 2006, 10:26 PM
[


OMG I never thought of this but it seems so right the way you put it. Jack commited a kind of suicide and in the end Ennis must have understood.  Tears falling like rain now.  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
[/quote]

In chatting with someone else on this web I got a new perspective.  Wish I could remember who it was so I could give him or her credit. This was it:  In the lastscene of Jack and Ennis together Jack says he is going from their to his parents ranch.  He is si devastated by Ennis, that he decides he is going to at least up the ante with Randall.  So, he tells his father that he has a new "one", who is going to come live with him on the ranch. This is a knee jerk reaction, that would probably never comne to pass.  He is so distraught that he becomes very reckless and cavalier in his actions - probably drinking too much (as Lureen says he did), flirting with the wrong people and not covering his tracks with Randall.  A death wish - one step short of suicide.  Before he can see that Ennis still wants to stand it as witnessed by his postcard,  he is dead.    Very, very tragic.   I don't think Jack is a slut.  He was just doing what he could to survive. :(                                                  - Nancy
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Offline n061857

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #56 on: Mar 04, 2006, 04:48 PM »
Quote from: Bob on Mar 02, 2006, 10:51 PM
Lilie, I do agree with you on Randall being the "rancher's wife"  I thought that that's who Jack was talking about the first time I saw the movie.

Lillie,  Jack had to say it was the rancher's wife not the rancher, because that was acceptible by Jack/Ennis standards.  You could be with another woman, but not with another man.  I don't think his plans were solid and I don't think he would have ever followed through with divorcing and living with Randall.  He had gone to his parent's ranch straight from the fight.  He was hurt and shooting his mouth off on the rebound.  Poor Jack!
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Offline n061857

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #57 on: Mar 04, 2006, 04:55 PM »
Quote from: Rod on Mar 04, 2006, 09:39 AM
Like some I think Jack had enough when he went to Mexico...but I gotta wonder...I know Jack would have always loved Ennis, that's a fact to me...but if he hadn't died....would he have ended up at his Daddy's place with the foreman or someone else?  I dont know the exact time frame....did his death keep his from the foreman and him moving up there?

I don't think Jack would have ever ended up at his father's place with Randall.  That was just a declaration made in the heat of the moment in his pain.  He said he was going to his parent's after their last paring.  I think they would have continued on as they were.  They were too in love to give up on each other.                                                                -Nancy 
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greenfrog

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #58 on: Mar 04, 2006, 08:31 PM »
Quote from: Titus on Feb 24, 2006, 05:53 PM
Jack, as his father reminded us, wanted to bring Randall up to Lightning Flat and divorce Madame Calculator.  That last scene with Ennis breaking down "Why can't you just let me be" broke Jack's heart, him wanting so badly what Ennis could never give him.  Sometimes we have to let those we love go, and maybe he got to this point because he couldn't keep hurting Ennis. :'(  Titus.


1. *Sobs*

2. He he ... Madame Calculator  ;D
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Offline Lilie

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Re: When did Jack decide?
« Reply #59 on: Mar 04, 2006, 08:54 PM »
Quote from: n061857 on Mar 04, 2006, 04:48 PM
Quote from: Bob on Mar 02, 2006, 10:51 PM
Lilie, I do agree with you on Randall being the "rancher's wife"  I thought that that's who Jack was talking about the first time I saw the movie.

Lillie,  Jack had to say it was the rancher's wife not the rancher, because that was acceptible by Jack/Ennis standards.  You could be with another woman, but not with another man.  I don't think his plans were solid and I don't think he would have ever followed through with divorcing and living with Randall. 

Oh, I know. I know he couldn't say it, especially not to Ennis - the way he reacts when he learns about Jack going to other men shows that. He was trying to tell him something with the rancher's wife thing, to be as honest as he could, without really telling him. He was scared it would push him away, I think.

Sam - great post. I very much agree with the "not caring anymore" idea. Living without Ennis wasn't really living.
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