Topic: When did Jack decide?

[matsuki33]

I personally think taht he may have not quit him never i mean 20 years and he never quit him because he loved him maybe he was indeed trying to build a lit without Ennis but sooner or later he was going to realize that the person in his heart was ennis and no one else. and i think he may have tried but for sure he was unable he didn't know how to quit Ennis from his heart.

[Patriot1]

That is if he died the way Ennis thinks.

Please think of the way Lureen described the way Jack dies.  There is no way that could have happened.

If the tire was on rim and the rim was on the wheel while he was pumping it up, that would mean the tire exploding would have had to shear off at least 5 lug nuts to come off of the truck and hit Jack in the face.

If the tire was on the rim and the whole thing was on the ground while pumping it up, that would mean the tire and rim would have to have jumped up at least 5 feet into the air to have hit Jack in the face.
People do not generally kneel on the ground while pumping up a tire.  Normally you have one foot on the pump stand holding it down while you move the plunger up and down.

It just could not have happened the way Lureen said.

[matsuki33]

I read somewhere that Jack was an example of what happens when showed yourself in that time they became him as a lesson of that are the limits of the homophobia unfortunately i'm of the belief that he may have been killed the more i investigate the more i realize, but i don't know why some people thinks this look at this thread in annieproulxs forum

copied from www.annieproulxs.com

Please answer my questions, they have been keeping me up at night.
a) How did Ennis know it had been the "tire iron"?
shamir wrote:
b) Did Lureen know her husband had been murdered?


Ennis was only guessing that Jack's "accident was done with THE " tire iron " since he had tire-iron phobia about being found out that he "queer" like "Earl" of the ranching couple, Earl and Roy, who was murdered. Ennis had been afraid of being murdered with a tire iron since he was a boy.

I and probably a million other people, who apparently aren't participating in this forum, believe that Jack was not "DECEASED" at all. And that was because in the story, there was never any proof that Jack was actually dead.

Since Ennis had that constant fear of the "tire iron," I think that Jack used a phony story about changing of a truck tire ON A BACK ROAD to make Ennis think he was dead. And, since a tire iron must be used to change tires, it made sense to Ennis that Jack was murdered with one.

shamir wrote:
c) How was Jack's homosexuality discovered?


Oh, in the short story, the only one who discovers that Jack Twist likes to have sex with guys is Ennis Del Mar. While Ennis's ex-wife, Alama, calls Jack Twist "Jack Nasty," she is probably just assuming that Jack and Ennis were doing the "nasty" with other women since they certainly never actually went trout fishing on their 'fishing trips."

Nobody else ever makes a statement to imply that Jack is a homosexual.

shamir wrote:
d) Who was this ranch buddy Jack's father talks about Jack wanting to bring home to help with the ranch? A boyfriend?


Actually, the Texas rancher friend of Jack is never mentioned. He has no name in the book. And, I think that the "this spring" in the words of John C. Twist, refers to the spring which is either yet to come or Ennis is at the Twist homestead in the Spring of 1984.

shamir wrote:
Did Jack give up on Ennis?

Thank you



Yes, according to the way that I read the short story, sometime after May 1983, after they had gone their separate ways, Jack decided to "Let be, let be."

In making that decision, since Ennis would never give in and spend the rest of his life with Jack, he decided that he needed to get on with his life without Ennis.

**********************
to me what doesn't make sense there was the mother and the dad way of acting jack was dead but well people think  what they want. what do you think about this thoughts?

[Patriot1]

Who is this Yahoo answering those questions on Annie's web page?  He is an idiot.

For example:

I and probably a million other people, who apparently aren't participating in this forum, believe that Jack was not "DECEASED" at all. And that was because in the story, there was never any proof that Jack was actually dead.

Since Ennis had that constant fear of the "tire iron," I think that Jack used a phony story about changing of a truck tire ON A BACK ROAD to make Ennis think he was dead. And, since a tire iron must be used to change tires, it made sense to Ennis that Jack was murdered with one.

What a bloody idiot!

Of course Jack was dead.  How could he get his wife and his Mother and father to lie for him?  Where did the ashes come from should Ennis have wanted to see them?  Suppose Ennis would have gotten a copy of the sheriff's report about the "accident." Why would Jack's mother have let Ennis take her "living" son's shirt?

Jack is dead. Of that there can be no doubt.

shamir wrote:
c) How was Jack's homosexuality discovered?


Oh, in the short story, the only one who discovers that Jack Twist likes to have sex with guys is Ennis Del Mar. While Ennis's ex-wife, Alama, calls Jack Twist "Jack Nasty," she is probably just assuming that Jack and Ennis were doing the "nasty" with other women since they certainly never actually went trout fishing on their 'fishing trips."

This guy is a true loon!

Alma didn't think Jack and Ennis were "doing the '"nasty"' with other women."  For crying out loud she saw them, Jack and Ennis, kissing!!!! Why would she have thought there were other women involved?

What a total jerk!

Did Jack give up on Ennis?

Yes, according to the way that I read the short story, sometime after May 1983, after they had gone their separate ways, Jack decided to "Let be, let be."

In making that decision, since Ennis would never give in and spend the rest of his life with Jack, he decided that he needed to get on with his life without Ennis.

FINALLY! Something I can agree with. 

[sam]

This is proof that "idiots" watch our film too!

Maybe these are the ones who misconstrue the whole Brokeback Mountain story and voted against it in the 2006 Oscar race...

[Rønnaug]

I don't think Jack was really going to move on, he would come back to Ennis...always back to Ennis, Had he taken Randall up to daddys ranch he would have cheated oon Randall with Ennis

[matsuki33]

i agree to i think that he would never give up Ennis, that why he said "i wish i knew how to quit you"

[Patriot1]

I don't think Jack was really going to move on, he would come back to Ennis...always back to Ennis, Had he taken Randall up to daddys ranch he would have cheated oon Randall with Ennis

I would like, with all my heart, to think that is true Esme.  But, I don't.  I think Jack had finally decided Ennis was in too much pain over this relationship and he wanted to spare Ennis any more.

If you remember it was Randall that was the aggressor. Jack knew with Randall he COULD have a close and constant relationship because that seemed to be what Randall (unlike Ennis) wanted.

However, having said that, I think Ennis would always be in Jack's heart.  At least that is what I NEED to believe.

[Rønnaug]

However, having said that, I think Ennis would always be in Jack's heart.  At least that is what I NEED to believe

Yes, but I think like so may of us, jack thinks he wants it safe untill the true, but perhaps cruel, love beckons once again  :-\

[Stephen]

All your responses have got me thinking again.....part of the magic of the film is that there are so many open-ended details in the story;  life is so complicated and BBM reflects this with every word in the script and every visual on the screen.  I think your emphasis on Jack's line, "I wish I could quit you..." is important; the subtext seems to be, " I wish I could, but of course I can't; and I know how much pain you are in, so I'm going to leave you alone; but my need for a partner is so strong that I must move on just to stay sane... however, you know that my heart of hearts will always be with you, Ennis....."

[brian2006]

i think Jack want to quit Ennis, but he juz couldn't...

he may left Ennis for sometime but after all, he will come back to Ennis, his only true love!

[jagrafess]

Well I have a few interesting "interpretations" of what happened.

1. Jack is definitely dead.  Jack was too nice a guy (and probably not all that smart) to orchestrate such a massive fraud. He'd have to get his wife and parents to lie and then somehow manufacture fake funeral notices.  In fact he'd have to get the whole of Newsome and Lightning Flat in on the charade just in case Ennis wandered into either town and someone let slip that Jack was alive.  A bizarre assertion, really.

2. The scene with Randall outside the dance hall...Jack goes extremely still and quiet even though Randall appears to be offering him something "illicit" at that point.  For me, I felt that Jack purposely didn't respond in any way to Randall's "idea" about going fishing either because of his loyalty to Ennis or because it seemed like a "bait".  I reckon Randall just planted a seed of an idea in Jack's head in that scene, but it was a while before Jack acted on it.

3. Jack and Ennis' last night together, when Jack says right after his revelation about the "thing" with the "Ranchers wife"...he goes to say "truth is..." then pauses.  I believe it was on the tip of his tongue to confess he was seeing Randall
(truth is....it's the rancher not the wife) but can't bring himself to say it and continues "...sometimes I miss you so much I can't stand it".  I believe he wanted to tell Ennis but decided not to so they could both enjoy what would be their last night together without heartbreak or a fight.

4.  Following from the above, I believe that this is why he finally blows up at Ennis' intransigence after Ennis cancels August.
We witness a stunning piece of direction by Ang Lee where the camera pans across Jack in such a way that it really tells us there has been a seismic shift in Jack's tolerance of Ennis.  In my opinion he decides finally reacts because he has Randall.
He's angry because he can't have what he wants with Ennis, but has had to settle for Randall.   Randall's existence means Jack can break up with Ennis because he could get what he wants somewhere else.  I don't think Jack wants to leave Ennis, but cancelling August was the straw that broke the camel's back.

5. I also agree that after the "flashback" and the older Jack watched Ennis drive off in his busted up pick-up, he's deciding there and then to let Ennis be free of him.  It's definitely a washed-out, gutted, exasperated expression on his face.  Ennis is so torn up about Jack, the only peace he can give him is to let him be.  Had Jack not died, the postcard might have said he wasn't available and this probably would have continued until Ennis got the hint. I found it odd that Ennis sent Jack a postcard after their fight.  They both seemed to have made it clear by the lake that neither of them could continue in that "bitch of an unsatisfactory situation".

[matsuki33]

well sometimes people said things that hurt each other, that is what happened to ennis he didn't want to hurt Jack but he did, it is true that it as a bitch unsatisfactory situation but it was the only way that to ennis mind they can be together.

[jackie62]

As so many others have said , no-one knows exactly what would have happened. The reason it resonates with all of us is the intensity of the love which has cost both men so much. After someone as special as Ang Lee saying Jack and Ennis are real people to him , i feel justified in the emotional connection i've made to them.

Brokeback Mountain is such  a story of immense power that it shows us we are only really alive when we love --- I've never known a more powerful work of art that deals with this core part of all of us. For those of us who have been lucky enough to find it, and are able to live it , it reinforces how lucky we are. For others ,who haven't ,it can make them ache for it and swear not to make Ennis's mistakes.

For me , Jack's line --- "I wish i knew how to quit you" shows how much of him is part of Ennis--- he doesn't say "I wish I could quit you" --- he  can't even imagine really being able to do so. The tragedy is Jack could never have been happy with anyone else.  Earlier,when Ennis talks about the power of their feelings "there's no reins on this one" its an understanding that neither can really fight  it.  How do you leave what has become part of you ?

It's possible Jack has decided to stop the pain and let Ennis go, but my sense is this would be out of a feeling of defeat and maybe self sacrifice --- I don't believe he could stick it out. When Jack goes with the Mexican, the look of resigned defeat on his face is so strong. No pleasure, just an empty longing.

If it really was the end of their time together ,  it would differ from the interpretation I have of where their relationship is when Jack dies. I take this from both the movie and short story .The tragedy is , even after a massive explosion of emotion , " nothing ended , nothing begun" --- nothing changes. They reshape things back to where they had been . But each time they had met in the future , the sadness would grow --- and I think parts of both of them would slowly die.

Sadly,  I think Jack's death is inevitable.


GOSH , JUST READ THIS OVER --- NEED TO GO AND THINK HAPPY THOUGHTS OF THEIR EARLY TIME ON MOUNTAIN.

[tpe]

As so many others have said , no-one knows exactly what would have happened. The reason it resonates with all of us is the intensity of the love which has cost both men so much. After someone as special as Ang Lee saying Jack and Ennis are real people to him , i feel justified in the emotional connection i've made to them.

Brokeback Mountain is such  a story of immense power that it shows us we are only really alive when we love --- I've never known a more powerful work of art that deals with this core part of all of us. For those of us who have been lucky enough to find it, and are able to live it , it reinforces how lucky we are. For others ,who haven't ,it can make them ache for it and swear not to make Ennis's mistakes.

For me , Jack's line --- "I wish i knew how to quit you" shows how much of him is part of Ennis--- he doesn't say "I wish I could quit you" --- he  can't even imagine really being able to do so. The tragedy is Jack could never have been happy with anyone else.  Earlier,when Ennis talks about the power of their feelings "there's no reins on this one" its an understanding that neither can really fight  it.  How do you leave what has become part of you ?

It's possible Jack has decided to stop the pain and let Ennis go, but my sense is this would be out of a feeling of defeat and maybe self sacrifice --- I don't believe he could stick it out. When Jack goes with the Mexican, the look of resigned defeat on his face is so strong. No pleasure, just an empty longing.

If it really was the end of their time together ,  it would differ from the interpretation I have of where their relationship is when Jack dies. I take this from both the movie and short story .The tragedy is , even after a massive explosion of emotion , " nothing ended , nothing begun" --- nothing changes. They reshape things back to where they had been . But each time they had met in the future , the sadness would grow --- and I think parts of both of them would slowly die.

Sadly,  I think Jack's death is inevitable.


GOSH , JUST READ THIS OVER --- NEED TO GO AND THINK HAPPY THOUGHTS OF THEIR EARLY TIME ON MOUNTAIN.

Thanks jackie62.  Your post is sad, but I love it.

[Rønnaug]

"I wish i knew how to quit you" shows how much of him is part of Ennis--- he doesn't say "I wish I could quit you" --- he  can't even imagine really being able to do so.

I agree, I think Jack wnated to but couln't. He had been hurt again and the line comes from that hurt. But I think even if he started things with Randall he would come to realize that a little bit of Ennis is better than no Ennis at all  :'(

[sam]

As so many others have said , no-one knows exactly what would have happened. The reason it resonates with all of us is the intensity of the love which has cost both men so much. After someone as special as Ang Lee saying Jack and Ennis are real people to him , i feel justified in the emotional connection i've made to them.


It's possible Jack has decided to stop the pain and let Ennis go, but my sense is this would be out of a feeling of defeat and maybe self sacrifice --- I don't believe he could stick it out. When Jack goes with the Mexican, the look of resigned defeat on his face is so strong. No pleasure, just an empty longing.

If it really was the end of their time together ,  it would differ from the interpretation I have of where their relationship is when Jack dies. I take this from both the movie and short story .The tragedy is , even after a massive explosion of emotion , " nothing ended , nothing begun" --- nothing changes. They reshape things back to where they had been . But each time they had met in the future , the sadness would grow --- and I think parts of both of them would slowly die.

Sadly,  I think Jack's death is inevitable.

Nice post jackie62. I agree with alot that you say...

Jack's face when he walks off with the Mexican, shows a man who is indeed "defeated"...
As he leaves, I see a man who once had high hopes and dreams of a happy life together with Ennis.  But we see on his face, that these hopes and dreams have been cruelly yanked away...crushed to pieces...

Jack finally realizes that it is like Ennis always said it would be: a life together with the two of them will never be...

On his sad, expressionless face, we see the cold, blank eyes, completely and utterly devoid of any grain of hope.  The eyes of a man, now walking off with a potential (sexual) partner solely to fulfull his "physical" needs...

No warmth, no tenderness, no Love...purely physical...

[bubbaluna]

Interesting posts everyone....however I have a slightly different take on all of this...

First of all, when Jack see Ennis leave after their emotional last meeting he is tired, devoid of hope, sad, and yes he realizes that it is probably best for both of them if they don't get together again...his expression at seeing Ennis drive off is so painful

He probably will continue his "relationship" with Randall (or whatever other rancher it might be) and casually mentions this to his parents when he visits them(about coming up there with a ranch neighbor)....however he never really has any intention of moving back up to Lighning Flats...how could he? He would be in such close proximity to Ennis...there would be no way he could "stand" it....he would have to seek Ennis out and he would definitely want to start up again...

I wonder if it is possible that Jack was so overwhelmed and despondent that instead of dying in an accident or being beaten with a tire iron he actually took his own life....I know this sounds far-fetched but think about it......Isn't it possible???

[Stephen]

Yes, it's possible, but it's outside of the story line and screenplay, and the film. I think the the film suggests that Jack was murdered and his wife knows it....... Of course there is the possibility, which was mentioned before in the forum, that Jack subconsciously invited death, that he put himself in a position to be killed. So in a subconscious sense, I guess one could call that a suicide......

[monicita]

Some very interesting posts here! Thanks for your thoughtful contributions, everyone.

About the tire iron: In various interviews the actors and the writers of the screenplay have underlined, that they wanted to keep the question whether it was the tire iron or not open. Ang Lee even said, that he wanted to make it very clear, that what was being shown during the conversation with Lureen was strictly in Ennis's head. We will never know if it was the tire iron or not and that is the beauty of this movie, not only concerning this question, but many others ( i.e. Is Randall the "farmer's wife"? Was Jack really going to let Ennis be? What did Ennis mean with "Jack, I swear"). And the greatness of the movie comes from giving people the space to imagine so many different outcomes. What people think happened usually depends on their personal experiences and what they fervently want to believe in.

monicita

[Stephen]

well said! McMurtry did say that people do die from exploding tires and such, but it's unlikely! And yes, the open ended questions can never be definitively answered, and thus the magic and resonance of the film and original story on the printed page.....

[Rønnaug]

well said! McMurtry did say that people do die from exploding tires and such, but it's unlikely! And yes, the open ended questions can never be definitively answered, and thus the magic and resonance of the film and original story on the printed page.....

And if all was open and shut what would we discuss here lol

[monicita]

So true, Esme. Three cheers for the film crew who left a lot to be discussed by us

monicita

[Stephen]

Exactly! Is there anything to discuss about Crash? What you see there is what you get, and that's it! With BBM. the nuances and possibilities are infinite! We'll be spending a long time on that Mountain!

[Lilie]

Great thoughts everyone.

For me , Jack's line --- "I wish i knew how to quit you" shows how much of him is part of Ennis--- he doesn't say "I wish I could quit you" --- he  can't even imagine really being able to do so. The tragedy is Jack could never have been happy with anyone else.  Earlier,when Ennis talks about the power of their feelings "there's no reins on this one" its an understanding that neither can really fight  it.  How do you leave what has become part of you ?

Yes, I totally agree with this. That was my point earlier - Jack isn't able to live without Ennis, so when he realizes it will never really happen, it kills him, metaphorically speaking. Trying to live with that and without Ennis ultimately lead to his actual death.

Sadly,  I think Jack's death is inevitable.

And sadly, I think you're right. This is the tragedy of it all.

There really wasn't any happy ending possible for Jack and Ennis. I thought about it the other day (but again, when don't I), and I realized that the tragedy of their story is that because of who they are, and because of the society they live in, their story was bound to end tragically the moment they fell in love with each other. It's depressing, but it's their love that ultimately destroyed both their lives, because they couldn't live it fully.

Jackie, very nice post, by the way.

And yes, the open ended questions can never be definitively answered, and thus the magic and resonance of the film and original story on the printed page.....

That's the true beauty of it, yes.

[sam]

I might be wrong, (if I am, then, someone please correct me!)...but

I thought that in the "Charlie Rose" interview with Ang Lee and Heath, Ang Lee came right out and said that Lureen was LYING when she has that last telephone conversation with Ennis.  I was amazed to hear that Lee actually said this right out, since it reveals to us without a doubt that the "tale" of Jack's tragic ending resulting from an exploding tire is a lie. He died another way...NOT the way Lureen says it happened to Ennis on the phone.

In the interview with screenwriters McMurtry and Ossana, they both keep it 'neutral', avoiding giving a definite answer...only asking the interviewer: "What do YOU believe happened?"
Then saying: "Then, that's what you should believe..."

Even actrice Anne (Lureen) on the Oprah show, coyly refused to give a definite answer to the "question"...saying only: "I think it was pretty obvious..."

[Patriot1]

I wonder if it is possible that Jack was so overwhelmed and despondent that instead of dying in an accident or being beaten with a tire iron he actually took his own life....I know this sounds far-fetched but think about it......Isn't it possible???

No, I don't think so bubbaluna. I offer this as evidence:

MOVIE CREDITS

Killer Mechanic        Gary Lauder
Grease Monkey       Christian Frasier
Assailant                Cam Sutherland

Mr. Lee cut the scene because he couldn't make it fit seamlessly but the credits prove his intentions.

 

[sweet_man_1]

lyrics to "mellissa" by the allman brothers

Crossroads, seem to come and go, yeah.
The gypsy flies from coast to coast

Knowing many, loving none,
Bearing sorrow havin’ fun,
But back home he’ll always run
To sweet melissa... mmm...

Freight train, each car looks the same, all the same.
And no one knows the gypsy’s name

No one hears his lonely sigh,
There are no blankets where he lies.
In all his deepest dreams the gypsy flies
With sweet melissa... mmm...

Again the morning’s come,
Again he’s on the run,
Sunbeams shining through his hair,
Appearing not to have a care.
Well, pick up your gear and gypsy roll on, roll on.

Crossroads, will you ever let him go? (lord, lord)
Will you hide the dead man’s ghost,
Or will he lie, beneath the clay,
Or will his spirit roll away?

But I know that he won’t stay without melissa.

Yes I know that he won’t stay without melissa.

[sam]

lyrics to "mellissa" by the allman brothers

Crossroads, seem to come and go, yeah.
The gypsy flies from coast to coast

Knowing many, loving none,
Bearing sorrow havin’ fun,
But back home he’ll always run
To sweet melissa... mmm...

Freight train, each car looks the same, all the same.
And no one knows the gypsy’s name

No one hears his lonely sigh,
There are no blankets where he lies.
In all his deepest dreams the gypsy flies
With sweet melissa... mmm...

Again the morning’s come,
Again he’s on the run,
Sunbeams shining through his hair,
Appearing not to have a care.
Well, pick up your gear and gypsy roll on, roll on.

Crossroads, will you ever let him go? (lord, lord)
Will you hide the dead man’s ghost,
Or will he lie, beneath the clay,
Or will his spirit roll away?

But I know that he won’t stay without melissa.

Yes I know that he won’t stay without melissa.

Sooooooo much of Ennis and Jack in this song!  It's making me cry again.  Thank you for the lyrics sweet_man...

It's so amazing how much careful consideration, willful thought and tremendous effort Ang Lee and the filmmakers put into choosing just the right songs for this film. (Not to mention the well deserved Oscar for best original score won by Santaololla!)

"Crash" might have had a larger film budget, but by long, not so much loving  effort or thought for detail was slipped into that film as was in our beloved: "Brokeback Mountain"...  The extremely  large cast of "Crash" seems to have worked negatively, in this respect...

[Stephen]

When did Jack decide? Maybe he never really did; maybe he was just biding his time for a while......I'm still haunted by the card Ennis sent to reconnect with Jack! and which came back "deceased".  When did Ennis send the card? How long after the last meeting with Jack?  The card must mean that Ennis, despite the harsh words exchanged at that last get together, was not about to have Jack quit him, and if the card had been sent earlier, maybe it would have precluded Jack looking for another relationship.....what do you think?