Author Topic: Do you think Ennis found Jack pretty? In which scenes it is shown?  (Read 2039 times)

Offline @loki6783

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Hi,
IMO the movie clearly shows that Jack finds Ennis gorgeous. For example, when they first meet: I think he looks at him with interest and then he shaves for him. At the bar Jack checks him out a lot. Then, on the mountain, there's the scene when he smokes and Ennis is naked in the background. Jack finds him so handsome that he is blushing and avoiding looking at him.
But what about Ennis?
He is less explicit and I have troubles understanding the exact moments his mind was like "OMG my little darlin Jack is SO pretty!"...
My heart broke when he rejected Jack, for instance. There I tought he was less fisically interested than Jack.
I was like: "Really? Don't you see how cute and sexy he is? Are you dumb? Aren't you scared other men notice him? Because other men totally notice Jack."
What do you think?

Thanks

Offline ethan

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Hi loki6783,  #$#

It is an interesting question. I personally found both Ennis and Jack attractive in the movie.  ;D Jack definitely is more comfortable with his sexual orientation than Ennis for the reasons which you have pointed out and also his trip to Mexico.

Ennis, other the other hand is "curious" and perhaps was never curious until he met Jack. His attraction to Jack evolved and took time from barely speaking to Jack to their intimate second night in tent. I guess his attraction to Jack was more emotional whereas Jack's attraction to Ennis started more physical.

Definitely, human attraction is very fluid and complex. Some start love at the first sight but some take time.
Remembering Pierre (chameau) 1960-2015, a "Capricorn bro and crazy Frog Uncle from the North Pole." You are missed

Offline @loki6783

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Thanks for your answer. I understand your point of view but I cannot totally agree.
I agree that Ennis was moved by emotions and then, secondly, by physical attraction. However, I also think he was the one who topped in FNIT, their first time. I mean...He was...hard ... possibly because he wanted Jack physically. So he found him pretty at point he wanted to have a sexual encounter where he was the one doing the penetrative act... ok he was drunk but sometimes alchol frees  subconscious desire.... however I do not understand when he started to be aware that Jack is... someone he wants not just emotionally but also sexually.
I also wonder if he is aware of the fact that Jack is good looking for women and other men. I am sure that Jack knows  that Ennis is a good looking man...
I wonder if he ever considered how beautiful are Jack's eye, lips, skin, body, etc.

Offline ethan

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You are welcome!

What we see in the movie could be very different in real life. Obviously, Jake Gyllenhall is a very good looking man. I don't recall any physical description of Jack in the short story. Jack could well be just an average looking guy.

however I do not understand when he started to be aware that Jack is... someone he wants not just emotionally but also sexually.


I am not sure if Ennis wanted Jack sexually but alcohol definitely inhibited his judgement. I think we can see Ennis felt remorse after the FNIT scene and tried to avoid Jack. However, it is not clear whether his avoidance was due to FNIT or his realization that he may be fallen in love with Jack. It is perhaps both because second night in tent showed that he had surrendered to Jack.
Remembering Pierre (chameau) 1960-2015, a "Capricorn bro and crazy Frog Uncle from the North Pole." You are missed

Offline @loki6783

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Thanks for your answer!

In the ss they are ugly... I am only considering the movie in relation to this question.

I deeply love Jack but I have a love/hate relationship with Ennis.

I think that in FNIT and after FNIT he behaves like a... barbarian and I have no symphaty for him. Even if I know he has a great conflict inside him...ok.... He is drunk but enough sober to take Jack really roughly. Jack is drunk too. His consent is weak as much as Ennis'.

Then Ennis goes away without saying a word because I think he feels guilty and dirty for something that deviates from morality, in his vision. But he feels no guiltiness in eiaculating in another human being and then throwing him away the morning before like he is worth nothing. He was so rough. He may have hurt Jack...but hey who cares!...

And when he finds the guts to speak to Jack he is holding a gun. Poor Ennis... IMO his head is full of iper-macho bulls****.

In another post I have asked if you think Ennis knows  that Jack was also physically and psychologically abused by his father. That really helped Ennis to behave like a barbarian: Jack had already self esteem issues so he could treat him like that. Someone else, instead, may have used that awareness to become caring and protective.

I see it as a key point about the fact that Jack is not that loyal to him and cheats on Ennis. Looking back and getting older he understands that all of this Behaviors of Ennis are toxic. He uses the metaphor of the leash. It is so sad. It's like a grip around his neck. It strikes me everytime. It's a symbol of power unbalance, submission and domination.

Ennis does not even know, or pretends he does not, how much he hurts Jack. Everytime. I can't stand it. But I love this story a lot.

Ennis acted..like jack s dreams were not important or legit. He also says he could kill Jack for jealousy which is the thing that is the farest from love ever.

So, sorry for my long complaining list and my bad English... I suppose that Ennis probably he knew Jack was super pretty physically but he was too messed up with macho mode he could never admit to himself or to him to compliment him.

I am not saying Ennis is evil. Ennis is complex and interesting. Heath portrait is timeless and great.

I think...Ennis is careless towards Jack. Jack accepts it for a bad mixture of love and low self esteem.


What do you think?

Offline tpe

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Your points are understandable.

ENNIS is not exactly a likeable person. Perhaps that was why he was drawn to Jack, who really made him feel liked and secure.

The complexity of the Ennis character serves as a foil for Jack, who wears his heart on his sleeve.

In many ways, we understand why the relationship lasted so long, and why it did not go farther beyond a certain point.



Offline ethan

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I completely understand your frustration with Ennis. I would be very upset if Ennis did this to me.  ;D I didn't know that in SS, they both are ugly. I have to go back to read the story again. I think the following sentence summed up pretty well.

So, sorry for my long complaining list and my bad English... I suppose that Ennis probably he knew Jack was super pretty physically but he was too messed up with macho mode he could never admit to himself or to him to compliment him.

I am not saying Ennis is evil. Ennis is complex and interesting. Heath portrait is timeless and great.

I think...Ennis is careless towards Jack. Jack accepts it for a bad mixture of love and low self esteem.

What do you think?

I would think Ennis is careless toward anyone - even to his daughters. If there is one scene where Ennis found Jack pretty or was drawn to Jack, it would be the scene by the fire when they talked about rodeoing.

Jack Twist : Friend, that's more words than you've spoke in the past two weeks.
Ennis Del Mar : Hell, that's the most I've spoke in a year.

So flirty in this scene which led to FNIT.
Remembering Pierre (chameau) 1960-2015, a "Capricorn bro and crazy Frog Uncle from the North Pole." You are missed

Offline FlwrChild

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Thanks for your answer!

In the ss they are ugly... I am only considering the movie in relation to this question.

I deeply love Jack but I have a love/hate relationship with Ennis.

I think that in FNIT and after FNIT he behaves like a... barbarian and I have no symphaty for him. Even if I know he has a great conflict inside him...ok.... He is drunk but enough sober to take Jack really roughly. Jack is drunk too. His consent is weak as much as Ennis'.

Then Ennis goes away without saying a word because I think he feels guilty and dirty for something that deviates from morality, in his vision. But he feels no guiltiness in eiaculating in another human being and then throwing him away the morning before like he is worth nothing. He was so rough. He may have hurt Jack...but hey who cares!...

And when he finds the guts to speak to Jack he is holding a gun. Poor Ennis... IMO his head is full of iper-macho bulls****.

In another post I have asked if you think Ennis knows  that Jack was also physically and psychologically abused by his father. That really helped Ennis to behave like a barbarian: Jack had already self esteem issues so he could treat him like that. Someone else, instead, may have used that awareness to become caring and protective.

I see it as a key point about the fact that Jack is not that loyal to him and cheats on Ennis. Looking back and getting older he understands that all of this Behaviors of Ennis are toxic. He uses the metaphor of the leash. It is so sad. It's like a grip around his neck. It strikes me everytime. It's a symbol of power unbalance, submission and domination.

Ennis does not even know, or pretends he does not, how much he hurts Jack. Everytime. I can't stand it. But I love this story a lot.

Ennis acted..like jack s dreams were not important or legit. He also says he could kill Jack for jealousy which is the thing that is the farest from love ever.

So, sorry for my long complaining list and my bad English... I suppose that Ennis probably he knew Jack was super pretty physically but he was too messed up with macho mode he could never admit to himself or to him to compliment him.

I am not saying Ennis is evil. Ennis is complex and interesting. Heath portrait is timeless and great.

I think...Ennis is careless towards Jack. Jack accepts it for a bad mixture of love and low self esteem.


What do you think?


As to physical attraction, they were both rugged men who lived rugged lives. I don't think their attraction to each other was necessarily about one of them thinking the other was pretty so much as the relationship that developed between them and then pairing that with being attracted physically in general.


While I agree that Ennis can be gruff and certainly shies away from overtly affectionate behaviors, I disagree with some of your descriptions about their first night together and the way that Ennis behaved afterward. Jack initiated their intimacy in FNIT. It was rough, not because Ennis is a "barbarian" but because they are two young men giving in to their passions. Jack's consent wasn't weak just because he was on the receiving end and in the short story it is made quite clear that they both climaxed so he obviously enjoyed it, too.

I also didn't read anything into the fact that Ennis was carrying a gun during that conversation. That was part of his job. Perhaps because we have the short story to give us context to some of those scenes and I have read the SS as well as seen the movie, I see those moments differently. There was no reason to feel guilty or apologetic for the sex in FNIT because they both wanted and enjoyed it. He left in the morning to do his job and to reflect on what had happened; that seems like a reasonable response to me. There is no indication that Ennis was ever trying to treat Jack badly.

As to the power imbalance, I think there was a whole thread on that topic once. I think one of the ironies of this story is that both felt they had no control in the relationship; Jack because he thought Ennis controlled their fate and Ennis because he thought the world controlled their fate (because he truly believed the world would never allow it - that was the lesson he learned from his father). So they both stayed with the ride for as long as they could stand it because that was all either of them could do.

Finally, I don't think that Jack is unfaithful to Ennis because he finds him toxic; I think he goes to Mexico because he has a need for that kind of physical intimacy, with a man, that he can't get from Ennis due to the long gaps between when they're able to see each other. He pretty much says as much during the final confrontation scene. And that had Ennis said yes to making a life together, he wouldn't have needed to seek comfort elsewhere.

I do agree that there was a toxic element to their relationship but it felt to me that this toxicity was created by the impact of the outside world and each of their insecurities more than it was by either of them inherently. Ennis struggled with the conflict he felt inside of himself and his fear that they could get killed because of their relationship and Jack chafed against the restrictions of their limited time and his inability to move on with someone else because of his attachment to Ennis. They were both unable to let the relationship go, even when it caused them pain. Which was just another aspect of the tragedies of the story imo.

For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline @loki6783

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Hi, :h)

Thank you all for answering. It is always good to have an exchange of opinions on this beautiful movie, even more when I encounter different visions from mine.

I am here responding to FlwrChild and all.

I repeat: I am sorry I am so bitter about Ennis but I can’t help it. It is probably something really deep for me. Having seen the movie many times, in different phases of my own life, I keep struggling to understand him. He reminds me of people I have never understood and left behind without looking back. He’s the type of person I would escape from without thinking twice.
My question about physical attraction may be misunderstood as I do not think Ennis should see Jack pretty (or Jack should see Ennis that way). I was not meaning physical attraction as something solely linked to looks, that’s not my vision. That’s superficial and I apologize if I gave that message.

Firstly, I think they are both extremely attracted to each other emotionally and deeply. However, sometimes I feel just so sad about the movie, and I seek traces of Ennis unexpressed love anyway/anywhere I can. So, I was wondering about the fact that, at least, he may have thought that Jack was pretty, cute, handsome, beautiful, precious (I do not know how to express it in English).
He did not recognize other qualities of him: Jack was brave, he was full of energy, he was funny, he had pure dreams, etc. I have not seen Ennis recognizing his features. He never gave value to that qualities.

He probably thought that Jack was silly and that his dreams were incautious. So I was wondering: what did he see in him? Ok, they were free to be themselves together. But what did he truly appreciate about Jack, besides the way he made him feel? This is, I think, an important question: how did he see Jack as a human being? It means going beyond only “sensations”. Because their love dimension on BBM was so animalistic, so guts-related, so instinctive.
I am sure Jack was aware of Ennis, and he thought about him a lot when they were apart: he thought about his qualities and his flaws. He had projects for them together.
When it comes to Ennis, I remember from the SS he thought about Jack when he touched himself (correct me if I am wrong or if I read so many ffc I mistake), I cannot even suppose what he thinks. It’s…blurred. That character is a mystery to me. He fascinates me a lot. I have the impression that when he is far away from Jack, he forced himself to close him and their love in a “drawer” inside his mind/heart and he only opens it when they are on BBM to let sensations free. But I think that he should have had some help to elaborate the relationship on a higher level, dialoguing with his emotions, giving names to sensations. He never did it. He could not. However, getting back to the point, maybe thinking that somewhere far from him, Jack continued existing, having big baby blue eyes and a beautiful smile, being pretty, really pretty, may have been a signal of awareness that Jack was more than a beautiful sensation to feel time to time. Ennis lives their togetherness at BBM like some sort of sensation trip. But Jac was a person, not a sweet sensation. Too many times Ennis tends to forget this “little” aspect IMO.


However, it’s Ennis-style to be unable to really attribute to others complex emotions. Alma was another example of how rudimentary he functioned: he is not evil, he is not dumb, but he has not the sensitivity to understand how much he hurts others.
As regards FNIT, I am equally excited and deeply disturbed by that scene. It is passionate, intimate, they are sensual, their breaths make it so real, and yet that night, that moon, that tent, that place, gives a strong poetic vibe to the moment. However, if I rationalize it, I see that there is something deeply wrong: it’s like the draft of a text, that needs a revision before being good. They both know it, that’s why in SNIT their attitude changes.


In FNIT, they are both drunk with alcohol and repressed desire. But when it comes to the act itself, in that moment, Ennis takes the powerful position. Of course, Jack agrees with a very seductive glance that speaks loudly (“Take me”). He is the one turning and offering himself. However, the more I watch the movie and analyze these characters, the more I think Jack was expressing “Take me” with his eyes and movements, but he was not saying “F*** me roughly”. Jack has been metaphorically oppressed/overwhelmed by other men his whole life (John, Aguirre, Laureen’s father). A sweeter approach may have changed everything…Or not?
 
The rough approach…That was all Ennis. Ennis was not sentimentally educated, he was unexperienced, he was excited, Jack initiated it, ok I know, but IMO in the moment he assumed the role of the active one, he was not authorized to be rough/punishing/careless with his partner. Plus, from that position Jack cannot move much. Ennis is the one calling the shots. Jack is the one receiving, and it gives me a sense of vertigo the idea he was there, receiving sex from a man he does not know so well, but he has trusted him, he lets him do it. He is alone on a mountain, there are no other humans in that territory and in that moment the only other man is mounting him roughly and carelessly. And truly he is careless, we cannot see if he touched Jack in the act. I think Jack climaxed touching himself and/or for internal stimulation. Ennis thought about himself and his own pleasure. The way he clings onto Jack shirt with his hand it says “You can’t go anywhere. Now you stay under me. Take it” and he clams and overwhelms Jack’s body…The way Jack moans and hits the ground with his hand says “Damn, I need you. But f***... You are hurting me.”

If you see it in this perspective, it is even more sad how much careless Ennis was to Jack in the course of their story. In the morning after scene, it’s clear that Jack is feeling pain when he walks, that solely proves that Ennis has taken Jack roughly.

I think it's left to personal interpretation why is Ennis holding a gun when he speaks with Jack after FNIT. I see it as a phallic symbol of power. He needs to "defend" his masculinity. And Jack, once again, is better than him. He lays there. He waits. He is probably scared about how this man acted. But he has been grown by a violent man, so he does not scare easily for Ennis rough attitude.

And here I really do not know why many brokies think he was more experienced in sex than Ennis… We can only suppose that something may have happened in his previous year at BBM, with someone else, because Jack says he had already sinned. But what if that is not true? What if it was only a flirty way to get Ennis attention? What if Jack was virgin like Ennis? That is not what he deserved as a first time.

I am sorry I tend to be overprotective with Jack  :s). I have seen the movie for the first time when I was 16 and I was unexperienced in life and relationship and my first instinct was: that does not seem right for Jack. Now I am 31 and I know that is not right for Jack. Cause it is not right for anyone to be treated like that. Ennis could have made the moment less hurtful by only saying a few words the morning after “I need to stay alone for a while.” That look he gave to Jack when he is on the horse, from an upper position, it makes me so uncomfortable. Jack had been so strong to stand there. If my partner would look at me like that after my first time or anytime sex, honestly, I would want to cut my wrists and/or dive into a mincer.

In that look, Jack probably sees his disgusted father and more. That look of Ennis is so full of prejudice, and morality. There is no other gaze that hurts me like that in movies.

However, Ennis never tried to treat Jack badly. You are right... He did not even have to try. It was a natural talent of him (sorry I speak fluent sarcasm, way more than English).

Jack is unfaithful for many reasons: he lives a very lonely life, except from Ennis. In his family he is a marginal figure. I think he seeks for connection and sex is a strong form of connection. It’s not love but it is rewarding. It is something. But in the final confrontation, he is more mature and his discomfort towards Ennis internalized toxic masculinity explodes like an atomic bomb. He is so sad in the last confrontation scene because he learns that Ennis has suffered as much as him and yet he does not want even to try. Why? Because his brain is full of iper-macho cowboy bull****. Jack’s last gaze when Ennis drives away is so disappointed. He is no more desperate or sad. He has finally seen that Ennis is not or he has never been how he thought and fantasized.

Ennis is worse than a repressed homosexual, traumatized, full of prejudice, unable to really love him. He has a bright side; he has a loving side. He loved Jack all along, all those years. He is suffering as much as Jack. And if there is something that Jack can’t stand is if Ennis is hurt (in the punch scene it is clear: Jack panics if Ennis is hurt). IMO Jack tolerates the pain a lot, he tolerated the short leash and he coped with that as he could. But learning the fact that Ennis hurt himself as much as him, tortured himself as much as him, all of those years, that was a turning point. His eyes in that las gaze are disappointed and dead… Paradoxically, discovering that Ennis did not love him would have been less disappointing. Less painful.

Because Ennis IMO is toxic. With Jack and with himself. And I think that saying that he is like that because of society and the outside world spare him the responsibility he has. Often, Ennis hides behind his husband/father/work duties, and it is funny because he is a failed husband, a neglecting father, and he has nothing to lose in terms of job position. *Let’s think about Oscar Wilde, he faced the accusations and he lost everything, his position, his art. He should have all the justifications to be a coward.* Back to Ennis, he had internal conflicts and fears, and that’s human and understandable, but he imposed to Jack his way to deal with those problems, like a tyrant. He never negotiated anything with Jack. Never.

And Jack was way too precious (and pretty, back to the first point!), outside and inside, to not look forward at least for a compromise, minimizing suffering from both parts.

I am seeing a big metaphor of their whole story in their physical fight scene before leaving BBM. Jack tries to grab Ennis feet with a rope, to control his way. Ennis fights off any bond with Jack. Jack fights back because he wants him to accept that they really need to be together. And this thing hurts. Jack is strong, he is incautious, he is passionate, and there are many risks. In fact, Ennis ends up hurt by Jack. That was unintentional. Love is like that, commitment and risks: being cheated, being abandoned, facing adversities together. But Jack is and always will be caring. He will be there for him. He stops to hold him so sweetly. IMO it means it will always put Ennis first. And Ennis…Ennis “knows better”. Always knows better and intentionally punches Jack. Because he needs to feel he is the one calling the shots.

How can I restrain myself from thinking he is a super-douchebag? If there is a method, teach me.  ^f^

Offline ethan

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I do agree that there was a toxic element to their relationship but it felt to me that this toxicity was created by the impact of the outside world and each of their insecurities more than it was by either of them inherently. Ennis struggled with the conflict he felt inside of himself and his fear that they could get killed because of their relationship and Jack chafed against the restrictions of their limited time and his inability to move on with someone else because of his attachment to Ennis. They were both unable to let the relationship go, even when it caused them pain. Which was just another aspect of the tragedies of the story imo.

Well said, FlwrChild.  ^f^

loki6783, thanks for sharing your take. There is really no need to be sorry. It is wonderful that we are discussing the movie from many different perspectives. Like you, I would run away from Ennis too in real life. Homosexuality was very different in the 60s. Love between same sex was suppressed and could cost a person's life. I could understand that it was not easy to let go, especially after they have connected on physical and emotional levels. It is understandable that you are protecting Jack because he went all out for Ennis. If you frame your mindset in the 60s, perhaps you could understand the complexity of their love story.

In the movie, we don't see much about their fishing trips. I'd like to think they were being themselves and madly in love.

The movie is a tragic love story.
Remembering Pierre (chameau) 1960-2015, a "Capricorn bro and crazy Frog Uncle from the North Pole." You are missed

Offline tpe

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After mire than 15 years, it is so wonderful to see a discussion flowing once again!

I think the key to understanding Ennis (and therefore developing sympathy, if not love) is to recognize the trauma of his childhood, and how this shut him off from expressing his true feelings.

Offline @loki6783

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 :h} it's so nice to read your answers! I feel so understood...I hugh you all  :clap:  :ghug:


What if we all justify him in the light of the epoch and context of the story?

Do you think Ennis nowadays would be different?
 
I do not think so. I cannot see him waiving a rainobow flag in a gay pride. I think he would be the same d*** Jack and we are used too.
There is a lot of closethed gay men who break the heart of their loved ones, still today. 2022.

And there always was, in every epoch I bet.

Many movies narrate this issue (for example Freier Fall which is interesting, Firebird that totally sucks IMO, God's Own Country that is...a sort of son of BBM, have you seen it? It's kinda cute).

Ok, Ennis was deeply traumatized by his father. That's another justification...But... Traumatized people love quite a lot, actually.

What if it's just that Ennis avoids love because - altough he seems the mature one (accusing Jack of being a childish dreamer) - he is scared of love like a little boy. Love is commitment, is everyday, is fatigue, is facing adversities together... BBM is a paradise where he and Jack can be little boys forever only savoring an ideal heavenly perspective of life. BBM it's a lot like Eden.

It's easy only meeting up a few days, savoring only the love making, the romantic reunions, the moon, the stars. Love is holiday for Ennis, it is an escape from an unsatisfactory life.

But at some point Jack wants to grow up...Wants more...

Maybe macho-s*** epoch is the perfect cover for immature!Ennis.



Offline tpe

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I think today, he would be more accepting and less tortured. But yes, I think he would still keep things internally. Don't know if this is easier on him, but it's a small step towards sone degree of inner peace, perhaps?

Offline rampantlion

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"Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder," as the Ancient Greek Philosopher would say. What is attractive to you may not be attractive to others. In Ennis's passionate love for Jack, it is clear that Jack is quite attractive.

Offline FlwrChild

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Well said, rampantlion.   O0
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)