Topic: What if... ?!

[lancecowboy]

Would all of us agree that part of Ennis's "passivity" stems from his reluctance to repeat what he and Alma went through?  So was his reluctance to commit a clear indication on his part to spare Cassie the same pain?

Hmm...I don't agree here.  I think the relationship between Cassie and Ennis has been obvious from the beginning. She is really into him, and he is just not that much into her. Afterall, he is passive (again that word) in the entire relationship with her. She, as we discussed in previous threads, is like a female Jack, putting all her hopes and dreams with him, even taking on Junior in one of their dates and treating her nice. The "burnt twice" comment at Thanksgiving was just an excuse with Alma, when she asked him about finding someone else to marry. It was almost like his response to Jack when he asked almost the same question, and he slought it off with putting the blocks on this little waitress.

Ennis had only love for Jack. He just didn't know what to do about it. He is passive because he is confused.

[lancecowboy]

The irony is that Ennis's final desire to come clean with Cassie probably moves him closer to the realization that his love for Jack had to be lived -- and not in a clandestine fashion?  I can't help but equate his repudiation of Cassie to a move closer to his coming to terms with a life with Jack.

I know that there is no proof of this.  But I do somehow sense a small but significant shift.  I go back and forth in this, but for the most part, I felt that had Jack lives, something may have changed a little...

I don't see this desire at all. If anything, Ennis was once again avoiding the confrontation, avoiding her calls, ignoring her messages. If she didn't happen to see him at the diner, she would have gotten the message and moved on. But fresh from the pain of being dumped like that, she confronted him, and made him face the fact that the thing he had with Jack was like the thing she had with him, and she didn't just do it for fun.

The interesting part of Cassie in the movie is the symmetry of her role's entry into the movie, with Ennis sitting alone drinking beer after beer in a bar, and her exit, with Ennis sitting alone eating slowly a single apple pie in a diner. Both points to the extreme lonely life of a man at first pinely for the love of his life that he didn't understand, and a man finally given up to the love of life that was beyond his reach.

This reminds me of Ennis' own entry and exit in the movie...first the lonesome cowboy leaning against the trailer, waiting....not knowing the love of his life was about to come roaring through like the freight train that thundered past....then the lonely middle-age cowboy scrapping by in an almost empty trailer, standing vigil for the love of his love that left, leaving imprints that would never never fade.

[tpe]

I don't see this desire at all. If anything, Ennis was once again avoiding the confrontation, avoiding her calls, ignoring her messages. If she didn't happen to see him at the diner, she would have gotten the message and moved on. But fresh from the pain of being dumped like that, she confronted him, and made him face the fact that the thing he had with Jack was like the thing she had with him, and she didn't just do it for fun.

The interesting part of Cassie in the movie is the symmetry of her role's entry into the movie, with Ennis sitting alone drinking beer after beer in a bar, and her exit, with Ennis sitting alone eating slowly a single apple pie in a diner. Both points to the extreme lonely life of a man at first pinely for the love of his life that he didn't understand, and a man finally given up to the love of life that was beyond his reach.

This reminds me of Ennis' own entry and exit in the movie...first the lonesome cowboy leaning against the trailer, waiting....not knowing the love of his life was about to come roaring through like the freight train that thundered past....then the lonely middle-age cowboy scrapping by in an almost empty trailer, standing vigil for the love of his love that left, leaving imprints that would never never fade.

So you think the Last Confrontation had nothing to do with Ennis's final break-up with Cassie?

I think the scene at the greyhound station mirrors Ennis's first scene with Cassie -- his drinking alone in the bar -- but in a much darker tone/color.  I think the darker mood is certainly in keeping with the previous scene (Last Confrontation) and is certainly a bridge to the even darker discovery of the next one (Jack's death.)

[lancecowboy]

The irony is that Ennis's final desire to come clean with Cassie probably moves him closer to the realization that his love for Jack had to be lived -- and not in a clandestine fashion?  I can't help but equate his repudiation of Cassie to a move closer to his coming to terms with a life with Jack.

I know that there is no proof of this.  But I do somehow sense a small but significant shift.  I go back and forth in this, but for the most part, I felt that had Jack lives, something may have changed a little...

I don't see this desire at all. If anything, Ennis was once again avoiding the confrontation, avoiding her calls, ignoring her messages. If she didn't happen to see him at the diner, she would have gotten the message and moved on. But fresh from the pain of being dumped like that, she confronted him, and made him face the fact that the thing he had with Jack was like the thing she had with him, and she didn't just do it for fun.

The interesting part of Cassie in the movie is the symmetry of her role's entry into the movie, with Ennis sitting alone drinking beer after beer in a bar, and her exit, with Ennis sitting alone eating slowly a single apple pie in a diner. Both points to the extreme lonely life of a man at first pinely for the love of his life that he didn't understand, and a man finally given up to the love of life that was beyond his reach.

This reminds me of Ennis' own entry and exit in the movie...first the lonesome cowboy leaning against the trailer, waiting....not knowing the love of his life was about to come roaring through like the freight train that thundered past....then the lonely middle-age cowboy scrapping by in an almost empty trailer, standing vigil for the love of his love that left, leaving imprints that would never never fade.

So you think the Last Confrontation had nothing to do with Ennis's final break-up with Cassie?

I think the scene at the greyhound station mirrors Ennis's first scene with Cassie -- his drinking alone in the bar -- but in a much darker tone/color.  I think the darker mood is certainly in keeping with the previous scene (Last Confrontation) and is certainly a bridge to the even darker discovery of the next one (Jack's death.)

Perhaps I did not understand what you said about his desire to come clean with Cassie. I took it to mean he would come out to her and let her know that he is not interested. What he did, avoiding her, was not coming clean. It was simply his old passive-aggressive behavior...he can't have Jack so he won't bother with Cassie.

Regarding the symmetry of Cassie's entry and exit, I see the bar scene with Ennis brooding and drunk, a LOT darker than the diner scene. If anything, the diner is turning when Ennis finally reconciled his love for Jack. He just didn't know what to do about it, until Cassie ran off with tears running down her face, and her words, echoed in his head, "Girls don't fall in love for fun." And he realized the last twenty years with Jack wasn't just for fun.

In fact, the scene was the light at the end of the tunnet that made the crash of Jack's death more contrastingly tragic for the lost of opportunity. I don't see the darkness that you see, but that's what make Brokeback Mountain a great movie. It is art that transcends reality and allows everyone to see it in the light of his or her own experience.

[tpe]

Perhaps I did not understand what you said about his desire to come clean with Cassie. I took it to mean he would come out to her and let her know that he is not interested. What he did, avoiding her, was not coming clean. It was simply his old passive-aggressive behavior...he can't have Jack so he won't bother with Cassie.

Regarding the symmetry of Cassie's entry and exit, I see the bar scene with Ennis brooding and drunk, a LOT darker than the diner scene. If anything, the diner is turning when Ennis finally reconciled his love for Jack. He just didn't know what to do about it, until Cassie ran off with tears running down her face, and her words, echoed in his head, "Girls don't fall in love for fun." And he realized the last twenty years with Jack wasn't just for fun.

In fact, the scene was the light at the end of the tunnet that made the crash of Jack's death more contrastingly tragic for the lost of opportunity. I don't see the darkness that you see, but that's what make Brokeback Mountain a great movie. It is art that transcends reality and allows everyone to see it in the light of his or her own experience.

Ah, I see.  Sorry for the confusion.  No, I didn't mean that he would come out to her.  And I see what you mean then.

As for the symmerty, I do think that you are right in that the later scene does have an inner resolve -- a reconcilation, as you say it, with himself and his feelings for Jack.  In this sense, yes, there is a redemptive quality to the later scene.

[lancecowboy]

Ah, I see.  Sorry for the confusion.  No, I didn't mean that he would come out to her.  And I see what you mean then.

As for the symmerty, I do think that you are right in that the later scene does have an inner resolve -- a reconcilation, as you say it, with himself and his feelings for Jack.  In this sense, yes, there is a redemptive quality to the later scene.

No worries, tpe. When someone is as prolific as you are posting in so many different threads, it's easy to get confused occasionally.

Thanks for clearing up the confusion.

[jedibarrister]

I don't see this desire at all. If anything, Ennis was once again avoiding the confrontation, avoiding her calls, ignoring her messages.

I agree that him finally putting an end to Cassie had everything to do with the final confrontation.  The night before, he was bragging to Jack about "putting the blocks" to her.  But that next morning, too much was said, too much heard, and too much felt.  Ennis couldn't put the genie back in the bottle, couldn't unring the bell, and couldn't unhear/unfeel/unsay all that happened.  Cassie was the casualty.  But WHY she was the casualty is interesting.  If Ennis torqued himself back to exactly where he was, he'd go back to pretending he was straight with "this thing" on the side with Jack...he'd go along and keep dating Cassie.  That he dropped her, that he let her go, that he realized he'd be hurting her, speaks volumes to Ennis' mental state, and the shift in his thinking.  Everything is subtle with Ennis.

Now for my "what if".  Ennis is easily tagged as the one who sets down the law and dictates how the relationship goes...that he's the stubborn one.  But Jack isn't guilt-free either.  For him, it was "the sweet life" or Ennis' version of a painful life.  It was "come to Texas", it was "let's get a place together".  Imagine if he'd ever said: "What if I move back home to Lighting Flat?"  Instead of 14 hours apart, they'd be about 4 hours apart.  Instead of 2 weeks a year, they'd also have the option of weekends.  Yet this compromise never came to Jack because he would never want to go back to his daddy's place full time.  But more importantly, moving back anywhere in Wyoming never came to Jack.  He wanted his fast paced life and Ennis to fit into it.  Ennis was a ranch hand and liked the rancher life.  So if Jack had moved to Wyoming, do you think Ennis would've kept to his 2-3 weeks a year?

[lancecowboy]

Two interesting observations, jedibarrister.

I agree that him finally putting an end to Cassie had everything to do with the final confrontation.  The night before, he was bragging to Jack about "putting the blocks" to her.  But that next morning, too much was said, too much heard, and too much felt.  Ennis couldn't put the genie back in the bottle, couldn't unring the bell, and couldn't unhear/unfeel/unsay all that happened.  Cassie was the casualty.  But WHY she was the casualty is interesting.  If Ennis torqued himself back to exactly where he was, he'd go back to pretending he was straight with "this thing" on the side with Jack...he'd go along and keep dating Cassie.  That he dropped her, that he let her go, that he realized he'd be hurting her, speaks volumes to Ennis' mental state, and the shift in his thinking.  Everything is subtle with Ennis.

I am not sure exactly why Ennis stopped responding to Cassie, but I think he finally understood, after the final confrontation, that it has been Jack all his life, that mattered most. "It's because of you that I'm like this." "I should never have let you go." Cassie actively pursured Ennis, and for a while, Ennis went along, kinda like his response to Jack. But, after the final confrontation, he knew there could be nothing permanent with Cassie. I am not sure if his reason was to "cut bait" so as not to hurt Cassie in the long run, "I ain't much fun, was I" or if he was simply going on his usual passive-aggressive mode, doing nothing to avoid making a choice between Jack and Cassie. I guess the post card he sent, after the confrontation with Cassie at the diner, was his way, finally, of making a choice. After all, "a girl don't fall in love with fun." The look on his face at that moment, echoes the look on Jack's face after the final confrontation...a look of bitter disappointment and longing and regrets and awakening ...

Now for my "what if".  Ennis is easily tagged as the one who sets down the law and dictates how the relationship goes...that he's the stubborn one.  But Jack isn't guilt-free either.  For him, it was "the sweet life" or Ennis' version of a painful life.  It was "come to Texas", it was "let's get a place together".  Imagine if he'd ever said: "What if I move back home to Lighting Flat?"  Instead of 14 hours apart, they'd be about 4 hours apart.  Instead of 2 weeks a year, they'd also have the option of weekends.  Yet this compromise never came to Jack because he would never want to go back to his daddy's place full time.  But more importantly, moving back anywhere in Wyoming never came to Jack.  He wanted his fast paced life and Ennis to fit into it.  Ennis was a ranch hand and liked the rancher life.  So if Jack had moved to Wyoming, do you think Ennis would've kept to his 2-3 weeks a year?

Agreed. Jack couldn't give up his good life in Texas without at least some acknowledgment from Ennis. After the divorce, Jack was certainly not going to rely on Ennis. It can be said that Jack was under Old Newsome's thumb and he would be giving up a lot, to return to another Old man, John Twist. The thought must be there all the time or he wouldn't keep saying it to his pa that he would bring Ennis there one day. Problem was, he couldn't depend on Ennis. And Ennis would never do anything to jeopardize Jack's marriage. He ain't queer, and certainly no homewrecker. Jack had to first move back on his own, before Ennis would commit. Jack could only move back if he saw some sign of commitment from Ennis. Catch-22. Stalemate. Nothing changed.

If only...

[jedibarrister]

See, to me, the Ennis who's bragging about "putting the blocks" to Cassie isn't the same Ennis that put the blocks away.  He'd clearly been with Cassie for a while...why stop all of a sudden?  The only thing we see on screen (cuz Cassie was barely a blip in the story) is the final confrontation.  So, to me, the final confrontation rang a bell that couldn't be unrung and for him to continue to "put blocks" to Cassie would make Ennis a cad and inhuman...someone Ennis isn't.  Lost, confused, torn to shreds emotionally, yes.  But he's not an insensitive cad who'd use someone when he came to realize that's exactly what he's doing.

And again, the short story and the movie left a lot out of the intervening 15 years.  But you'd think that at some point between the reunion and the final confrontation, Jack would've brought up the issue of spending more time together again.  And it wasn't Texas or nothing, or Lightning Flat or nothing.  There would have been permutations that would have brought them closer to each other geographically, emotionally, and physically without the all or almost-nothing that they had.  Is that what we're supposed to infer is what AP meant by "torqued things back up"...that they did discuss this a lot and either (a) they never thought of a middle compromise or (b) Ennis never agreed to even that much?

[lancecowboy]

See, to me, the Ennis who's bragging about "putting the blocks" to Cassie isn't the same Ennis that put the blocks away.  He'd clearly been with Cassie for a while...why stop all of a sudden?  The only thing we see on screen (cuz Cassie was barely a blip in the story) is the final confrontation.  So, to me, the final confrontation rang a bell that couldn't be unrung and for him to continue to "put blocks" to Cassie would make Ennis a cad and inhuman...someone Ennis isn't.  Lost, confused, torn to shreds emotionally, yes.  But he's not an insensitive cad who'd use someone when he came to realize that's exactly what he's doing.

I don't see Ennis as so clearly delineated, cad or not cad (interesting word btw: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cad).

For example, in 'em early days, he and Alma was in a marriage, and he tried to do right by her, playing in the snow, movies, etc, but he was clearly using her in his fantasies with Jack, e.g. the night after Alma asked him to move to Riverton. The relationship Ennis had with Alma and Cassie is more complex than just using them or not. On the one hand, Ennis tries to do right by them, as he was brought up to do, treating them with respect and fulfilling the role of husband and father. On the other hand, he yearns for what is not possible, being with Jack. The frustration comes out in anger, and apathy, i.e. the Saturday night on the couch, all the drinking.

By the time, they were divorced, and Cassie moved in on him at the bar, Ennis had given up on women and was just living from one meet to another, waiting for the time to be with Jack. It might seem like a short leash to Jack, but it was the only thing in the world for Ennis. He lived during 'em days to spend time in the mountains. Like the old saying goes: live to work, or work to live. To Ennis at that time, life was only worth living when he was with Jack. When Cassie came along, he saw a bit of Jack in her, the joie d'vivre, the carefree attitude. He responded by going along with her, having a bit of fun.

The final confrontation brought out feelings that Ennis couldn't ignore, made him realize that he and Jack were more than just a couple buddies having a bit of fun. He finally realized that he could never quit Jack. So he quit Cassie. But he didn't know how to say no to her, only how to avoid her. I think Ennis also thought Cassie was just having a bit of fun, and didn't realize she was in love, until the diner. Ennis didn't know what love was.

And again, the short story and the movie left a lot out of the intervening 15 years.  But you'd think that at some point between the reunion and the final confrontation, Jack would've brought up the issue of spending more time together again.  And it wasn't Texas or nothing, or Lightning Flat or nothing.  There would have been permutations that would have brought them closer to each other geographically, emotionally, and physically without the all or almost-nothing that they had.  Is that what we're supposed to infer is what AP meant by "torqued things back up"...that they did discuss this a lot and either (a) they never thought of a middle compromise or (b) Ennis never agreed to even that much?

It's hard to say what transpired between them during all 'em years. What do they do when they get together, a few times a year? Perhaps the brilliance of their infrequent coupling kept them too busy to do much talking. After the first few times of proposal by Jack and rejection by Ennis, I suspect Jack was too dejected to do much proposing. Certainly after the divorce, Jack understood Ennis wasn't about to  budge. There's also that alimony and child support. Ennis felt trapped. The river scene, when Ennis asked if Jack ever felt, that everyone knew, was also indicative of their communication during all 'em intervening years. They weren't the talkative sort. We need to remember that Annie Proulx wrote about rural life, and these two ranch hands were just two guys from the poorest parts in the opposite ends of the state. Ennis never finished high school, and Jack probably wasn't the scholastic sort either. They were smart in their own ways, and fitted each other perfectly, but they never felt fit in with the rest of the world. They don't see the many options that others, in a similar situation, might see. To them, it was either doing it out in the middle of nowhere, or move to Denver, leaving behind everything they knew. Ennis for sure was too scared to do anything of the sort. Jack was happy in Texas, at least in the beginning when he could have a playmate in the young Bobby, teaching him to drive, being looked up to. Once Bobby became the same snob like his grandpa, Jack was probably drinking even more. That's another problem with 'em both. With all 'em drinking, and toking towards the end, I doubt they had enough sense left to find alternatives. They were just cruising on automatic.

Jack was ambitious enough to want to go some place warm, but even something simple like that, met with the immovable object in Ennis.

Jack may have been the irresistible force to Ennis, but Ennis was the immovable object. Nothing changed.

The real tragedy was that by the time Ennis sent that last post card, he was budging, ready to move. Missed opportunities.

[rlh03]

        I've been away from posting in the forum for awhile but did peek in every now and then to see what was going on.

I ran across this series of posts between jeddibarrister, lancecowboy and myprivatejack.  I really owe you folk a lot; so much of what you said brought home to me once again how much the movie and ss with those wonderful people in it mean to me and probably always will.  What is so amazing, I think, is that BBM has become such a 'story for the ages', impacting so many, many people in so many different ways.  Anyway, I really enjoyed and appreciated all the thoughts you guys took the time to put in writing to share with each other and all of us.  My thanks again and again to each of you.  Richard

[lancecowboy]

You are Richard. I really enjoyed the discussion here, too. Thanks, Jedibarrister, for bringing a refreshed look.

My PBS has definitely progressed from the stage where Brokeback Mountain was in my every thought, past the stage where my emotions were hinged on every aspect of the movie and shortstory, to the point where the various scenes and anecdotes in the movie and shortstory have become a part of me, part of the vocabulary of the heart. They live quietly in the background, without imposing their intensity on my life, but lending strength to my soul when applicable.

There no end to love that's a force of nature.

And no forgetting the debt of gratitude to all those who created this inspired masterpiece.

[tpe]

        I've been away from posting in the forum for awhile but did peek in every now and then to see what was going on.

I ran across this series of posts between jeddibarrister, lancecowboy and myprivatejack.  I really owe you folk a lot; so much of what you said brought home to me once again how much the movie and ss with those wonderful people in it mean to me and probably always will.  What is so amazing, I think, is that BBM has become such a 'story for the ages', impacting so many, many people in so many different ways.  Anyway, I really enjoyed and appreciated all the thoughts you guys took the time to put in writing to share with each other and all of us.  My thanks again and again to each of you.  Richard

Thanks also for taking the time to post your thoughts and impressions, Richard.  And yes: a "story for the ages" it truly is.

[jedibarrister]

The final confrontation brought out feelings that Ennis couldn't ignore, made him realize that he and Jack were more than just a couple buddies having a bit of fun. He finally realized that he could never quit Jack. So he quit Cassie. But he didn't know how to say no to her, only how to avoid her. I think Ennis also thought Cassie was just having a bit of fun, and didn't realize she was in love, until the diner. Ennis didn't know what love was.

and

The real tragedy was that by the time Ennis sent that last post card, he was budging, ready to move. Missed opportunities.

I would like to think that Ennis was about ready to make a change, however slight.  I on some level would need that so that Ennis, as a character, could grow and understand.  But in the intervening months between the FC and the deceased postcard, we have no indication that Ennis tried contacting Jack in any way to say "bud, let's talk about options" or anything.  He went back to work, and spent the rest of Spring and the Summer and early Fall about his life, never reached out to Jack (the book mentioned one phone call..about the divorce...before he called Jack's house and talked to Lureen) until he sent the post card to set up the trip that never was.  The ONLY thing we have is in the movie...dumping Cassie.  Even that much growth or change isn't hinted at in the story.  It's not until the scene in the trailer, when Ennis wakes up from his dreams of Jack that we finally get in his head and feel his change/regret/etc. 

So as much as I'd like to think/hope/believe Ennis was on the precipice of change prior to Jack's death, the movie only hints at it and the book, unless I'm wrong, leaves even the hint out.

But...as I loved the Star Wars Infinities comic book series...I always like to think "what if".  What if they talked more, what if Jack threatened to quit him a couple of years earlier, what if what if what if....

[lancecowboy]

and

I would like to think that Ennis was about ready to make a change, however slight.  I on some level would need that so that Ennis, as a character, could grow and understand.  But in the intervening months between the FC and the deceased postcard, we have no indication that Ennis tried contacting Jack in any way to say "bud, let's talk about options" or anything.  He went back to work, and spent the rest of Spring and the Summer and early Fall about his life, never reached out to Jack (the book mentioned one phone call..about the divorce...before he called Jack's house and talked to Lureen) until he sent the post card to set up the trip that never was.  The ONLY thing we have is in the movie...dumping Cassie.  Even that much growth or change isn't hinted at in the story.  It's not until the scene in the trailer, when Ennis wakes up from his dreams of Jack that we finally get in his head and feel his change/regret/etc. 

So as much as I'd like to think/hope/believe Ennis was on the precipice of change prior to Jack's death, the movie only hints at it and the book, unless I'm wrong, leaves even the hint out.

I think we can agree that the Ennis in the movie is significantly different from the Ennis in the shortstory, especially in the end.

I don't recall if the shortstory talked about the wine that Ennis used to toast Junior's wedding announcement, but I seem to recall the wine was "leftover from those days with Cassie" (paraphrasing here). I believe Ennis did change after the final confrontation, exorcised his demons ("I ain't queer") and was ready to move towards Jack, and away from Cassie. Instead of brooding over beer after beer in the bar, Ennis was quietly finishing his apple pie in the diner, alone and waiting. He could have been waiting for the time in November, to meet with Jack, before talking some more. For someone as reticent as him, that's a big step already.

In the movie, we never saw the Ennis that was in the short story's prologue, the one dreaming the days away, pissing in the sink, hoping for another dream with Jack. Instead, we are left with a different impression, of the Ennis who interacted with Jack's Ma, who interacted with Junior. In those short moments of few words, much more was communicated that were not in the stark and desolate short story.

But...as I loved the Star Wars Infinities comic book series...I always like to think "what if".  What if they talked more, what if Jack threatened to quit him a couple of years earlier, what if what if what if....

I believe much of the what if scenarios have been covered by fan fictions. Since I don't follow these, I will leave others to advice you in the threads which cover the particular scenario you mentioned. I am sure there are some stories there.

[jedibarrister]

I don't recall if the shortstory talked about the wine that Ennis used to toast Junior's wedding announcement, but I seem to recall the wine was "leftover from those days with Cassie" (paraphrasing here). I believe Ennis did change after the final confrontation, exorcised his demons ("I ain't queer") and was ready to move towards Jack, and away from Cassie. Instead of brooding over beer after beer in the bar, Ennis was quietly finishing his apple pie in the diner, alone and waiting. He could have been waiting for the time in November, to meet with Jack, before talking some more. For someone as reticent as him, that's a big step already.

In the movie, we never saw the Ennis that was in the short story's prologue, the one dreaming the days away, pissing in the sink, hoping for another dream with Jack. Instead, we are left with a different impression, of the Ennis who interacted with Jack's Ma, who interacted with Junior. In those short moments of few words, much more was communicated that were not in the stark and desolate short story.

Cassie was entirely the work of the screenplay...so was her wine.  The short story only referenced a waitress.  Also, I'm fairly sure there's no sweet "I'm getting married' scene in the trailer requiring wine of any kind.  The Ennis in the prologue was deeply sad and essentially waiting for life to be over...one dream at a time.  The Ennis in the diner wasn't too far from that and he hadn't learned of Jack's death yet.  The Ennis in the movie seemed to have hope: a relationship with his children, the open road outside his trailer, possibilities, etc. 

Desolate is the perfect word for the written Ennis.  And in the diner, I still think that Ennis was set on his path.  He had firm ideas of how things could and couldn't be.  He lived for the memories and those 2 or 3 weeks.  He wasn't going to change and he felt Jack wouldn't abandon him.  The FC got him to drop Cassie, I'm sure.  But that was an internal change...admitting he's not for women.  But it wasn't until Jack died, IMO, that Ennis realized that all the time he lived in fear of death, all this time he denied himself Jack so he would stay alive, he realized he hadn't LIVED...  That's the essence of his regret.  His life grew on, but he never lived a life worth living.

I started a thread in the Short Story section on the "Jack, I swear" line....I'd love people's thoughts on that line.

[atalley]

Desolate is the perfect word for the written Ennis.  And in the diner, I still think that Ennis was set on his path.  He had firm ideas of how things could and couldn't be.  He lived for the memories and those 2 or 3 weeks.  He wasn't going to change and he felt Jack wouldn't abandon him.  The FC got him to drop Cassie, I'm sure.  But that was an internal change...admitting he's not for women.  But it wasn't until Jack died, IMO, that Ennis realized that all the time he lived in fear of death, all this time he denied himself Jack so he would stay alive, he realized he hadn't LIVED...  That's the essence of his regret.  His life grew on, but he never lived a life worth living.

I started a thread in the Short Story section on the "Jack, I swear" line....I'd love people's thoughts on that line.

Very good points.  I'll try to read your Short Story tonight or tomorrow.

[jedibarrister]

No...it's a post in the AP Short Story & Screenplay page (as opposed to the Characters, Quotes and Scenes age we're in now) and the thread is called "Jack, I Swear".  Basically, it seeks comments on what that meant.  I'm not nearly talented enough for fan fiction.

[lancecowboy]

Cassie was entirely the work of the screenplay...so was her wine.  The short story only referenced a waitress.  Also, I'm fairly sure there's no sweet "I'm getting married' scene in the trailer requiring wine of any kind.  The Ennis in the prologue was deeply sad and essentially waiting for life to be over...one dream at a time.  The Ennis in the diner wasn't too far from that and he hadn't learned of Jack's death yet.  The Ennis in the movie seemed to have hope: a relationship with his children, the open road outside his trailer, possibilities, etc. 

I believe you are correct. Cassie was an invention in the movie. The passage I quoted was probably scene directions from the written script.

Desolate is the perfect word for the written Ennis.  And in the diner, I still think that Ennis was set on his path.  He had firm ideas of how things could and couldn't be.  He lived for the memories and those 2 or 3 weeks.  He wasn't going to change and he felt Jack wouldn't abandon him.  The FC got him to drop Cassie, I'm sure.  But that was an internal change...admitting he's not for women.  But it wasn't until Jack died, IMO, that Ennis realized that all the time he lived in fear of death, all this time he denied himself Jack so he would stay alive, he realized he hadn't LIVED...  That's the essence of his regret.  His life grew on, but he never lived a life worth living.

I started a thread in the Short Story section on the "Jack, I swear" line....I'd love people's thoughts on that line.

I am in agreement with your feelings expressed above. Ennis was afraid to love, in fear of the death promised by his father's homophobia. The final confrontation put his feelings into focus, and he realized that just as much as Jack couldn't quit him, he couldn't quit Jack either. More than that, he didn't want to quit Jack, ever. So he quit Cassie.

I will try and find that thread. I am glad you joined the forum and triggered so much refreshing discussion.

[atalley]

Welcome Jedi...it's always great to get new members & keep the topics flowing.

[jedibarrister]

aw shucks    This is why I took so much literature in college that I could've had a minor if the business school permitted it.  I love discussing literature.  I also loved astronomy and took way too many credits there too...alas again without a minor degree to show for it.

Looks like my topic from the short story got combined with a much older thread in the Quotes Characters Scenes board.  So I posted there.

[athena0204]

There's no way that Jack could have ever "quit" Ennis. I definitely believe they would have continued seeing each other a few times a year had Jack not died. Jack's frustration with Ennis stemmed from his immense love for Ennis. He was upset that Ennis had not listened to his heart and had let his fear control his life which in turn had denied them the life they deserved together. But the love they have, a love that pure, that deep, that powerful, is something that is eternal, something that can never fade away. Jack would never ever be able to forget about his soulmate Ennis no matter what meaningless relationships (e.g. the foreman) he distracted himself with to numb the pain he felt that he couldn't be with his true love, Ennis. Remember how Jack never gave up and kept searching till he found Ennis again after four years? His "I wish I could quit you" remark was one of frustration, not meaning that he really wished he could just stop loving Ennis, but meaning that he his love for Ennis was causing him so much pain because Ennis was denying them what they deserved. But in such a story, Jack ultimately had to die for Ennis to realize how huge of a mistake he'd made in not listening to his heart. It had to happen for him to finally realize that he should have never let fear control him and he should have just listened to Jack and listened to his heart, instead of doing what was expected of him whilst being miserable just to please others and society.

[haveacrush]

this is a movie all about ifs buts , perhaps i guess. In your opinion what could have been the only thing that
1. jack could have done
or (not and!)
2. ennis could have done
for things to have turned in a positive way.

[Forever]

this is a movie all about ifs buts , perhaps i guess. In your opinion what could have been the only thing that
1. jack could have done
or (not and!)
2. ennis could have done
for things to have turned in a positive way.

Haveacrush to answer your question, I think first of all that the thread of the fanfiction can give you a multitude of possibilities about your If only. A thing is sure concerning our boys, they have great difficulties to express their feelings, especially from the moment were both fell in love. I don't think that they experienced real love before, maybe Jack did because he was deeply loved by his mother, but Ennis I doubt it. Moreover Ennis was in denial with his own sexuality, difficult therefore for him to express his feelings. In his mind what happened with Jack on Brokeback was not a love affair, but just a thing between two cowboys, it was just great fun and nothing more, and when Ennis collapsed in the alley, he didn't even know why he felt so bad and so sick! It took him more than one year to realize that something great had happened to him: love! even if it's still difficult for him to recognize this simple, natural fact. So now to answer to the only if question I will say:

a) If only Ennis's dad had not been homophobic, if Ennis had been loved, he would have had a beter understanding of his own emotions of love
b) If only Jack had known on Brokeback the child trauma of Ennis, he would have found the words to reassure Ennis that what they had found together was great and that was love, not just a small thing
c) If only Joe Aguirre had not shorten their stay on Brokeback, they would have had more time to understand each others feelings
d) If only Jack instead of lassoing Ennis had talked to him, Ennis would have been able to open up
e) If only Jack had seen Ennis collapsed in the alley, he would have understood that what he felt was also shared by Ennis
f) If only they could have both grew up in an non homophobic society, Ennis wouldn't have been scared to live with the love of his life!

They shouldn't have parted on this summer 63, but they did because too much societal and also educational factors were against them, and this the tragedy of Brokeback!  

But now I realized that you asked only one thing! So if I have to choose only one thing in my list, it will be my last answer, if only they had both grown up in an non homophobic society, Ennis wouldn't have been scared to live with the love of his life: Jack Twist!

[Forever]

Strange Haveacrush is not online anymore! And what about the other 32 Brokies? Wake up!  It's a great thread God da*** Any other thoughts???

[haveacrush]

Strange Haveacrush is not online anymore! And what about the other 32 Brokies? Wake up!  It's a great thread God da*** Any other thoughts???

i will vote the one that says if jack had seen Ennis breaking down in the alley

i think you have taken this discussion to another (higher ! better i mean) level ......... like if the guys were brought up in a different society, i was however restricting this discussion to situations from movie only.

well my only if would also include - ennis giving in to jack post divorce
or what if the final confrontation scene had been more fruitful , i mean just listen to ennis opening up the way he did in the confrontation scene .... he was actually reacting to Jack-seeing-the-other-woman(guy in this case)
he was JEALOUS !!! this could have been a really chance

[haveacrush]

helllllllooooooooo anybody  

[Forever]

i will vote the one that says if jack had seen Ennis breaking down in the alley

i think you have taken this discussion to another (higher ! better i mean) level ......... like if the guys were brought up in a different society, i was however restricting this discussion to situations from movie only.

well my only if would also include - ennis giving in to jack post divorce
or what if the final confrontation scene had been more fruitful , i mean just listen to ennis opening up the way he did in the confrontation scene .... he was actually reacting to Jack-seeing-the-other-woman(guy in this case)
he was JEALOUS !!! this could have been a really chance

I agree with you concerning the last confrontation, Ennis was completly jealous, it could have been as you said a great opportunity for Jack, it was now or never, he could have pushed things a little bit more, give Ennis an ultimatum, such as: make up your mind right now, I have waited 20 years, be with me, or I leave you forever! The problem with Jack is that, in my opinion, he is not the pushy type, and has never been the pushy type, maybe the reason is that he was too afraid to loose Ennis? I think also that Jack had his fear too, he was not in denial like Ennis, but he was enable to verbalize his love for Ennis too. He was pretty close when he said the day before the confrontation: sometimes I miss you so much, I can't hardly stand it But what did he get back from Ennis? nothing, not a single word! I really found Ennis in this scene heartless. The trouble with Ennis was not only his child trauma, but the fact that he didn't understand the depth of Jack's love until Jack's death and the discovery of the shirts. I have always wondered why Jack waited so long to have a real confrontation with Ennis, but as I said he was not the pushy type, maybe because of his own fears, or maybe in giving Ennis an ultimatum the risk of loosing him forever! But it's just my humble opinion!  

[haveacrush]

yes i very much can relate to that scene ... well heartless was my first reaction but after a second thought i think there was something else. Ennis was heights of introvert , may be certain things he took for granted - he did not understand that he has to convey or express. May be he thought he had "done enough" and doing enough (the reunion kiss and all their bbm trips). Or he was so overwhelmed that he thought the other person felt the same way ... although the situation was " i am not you ennis" may be he had not realized it in that way.
Some people do feel in that way - doesnt really mean "less " or "lack" of love or heartlessness.
About the other point you raised "but the fact that he didn't understand the depth of Jack's love until Jack's death and the discovery of the shirts" - really is VERY thought provoking..another topic almost

amazing huh ? so many years , heath ledger no more still we are finding areas to ponder...

ur thoughts

[Pinky11]

Do you think this movie is Ennis' great love and not Jack's? Because we're not talking about who Ennis is going to choose, we're talking about who Jack is going to choose, because he's a man with a big appetite, and by the way, when it comes to Cassie etc. we think Ennis is in love with Jack, but when it comes to Jack we say he loves Randalli, but there's a saying, you grow old with what's next to you and you die with what's on your mind, and Jack Sweet lived his life that way.