Topic: Maybe you're a sinner

[christie wood]

I still am of the opinion that whilst Ennis is saying to Jack he had generally done no wrong in his life, perhaps subconsciously he's telling Jack he's never "sinned" in a sexual way - least of all with a man - and when Jack offers him the drink it's symbolic of being offered temptation.  Ennis is glad of this opportunity and says "thank you".  No co-incidence that the immediate chain of events leading from that bottle of whiskey ends with the two men developing their intimacy considerably.  I honestly believe both boys are sensing a form of electricity between them by that stage.  Ennis is saying he doesn't know if he should act on his desire, Jack's saying "hey lets hasten things up a little". IMHO.

Oh there is something definitely going on between these two at this point - unexplainable to Ennis,exciting to Jack, and between the two,they can feel some kind of chemistry forming, some electricity that goes beyond friendship.  Ennis definitely needed Jack to lead him to that though......

[matsuki33]

Totally agree in that, if jack hadn't grab Ennis's hand to his you know what Ennis wouldn't even dream of trying anything it was not in his nature of being to take that step.

[ksxks]

I can't read this whole thread right now, though I'd like nothing better...but here's what I noticed in this scene last time I watched.  You know how you find yourself looking at one of them and not seeing something cool the other one's doing?  Well, I'm always looking at Ennis -- his beating the stick in time to Jack's singing and all that; and later, I'm still looking at him when he says this very flirty thing...and so I've missed, after Ennis says "...ain't never had the opportunity," that Jack says "Mmmmm...." and then a full-wattage smile on his face.  I love it.

kathy

[NoReins]

I can't read this whole thread right now, though I'd like nothing better...but here's what I noticed in this scene last time I watched.  You know how you find yourself looking at one of them and not seeing something cool the other one's doing?  Well, I'm always looking at Ennis -- his beating the stick in time to Jack's singing and all that; and later, I'm still looking at him when he says this very flirty thing...and so I've missed, after Ennis says "...ain't never had the opportunity," that Jack says "Mmmmm...." and then a full-wattage smile on his face.  I love it.

kathy

Jeez - I've never spotted that either. Might need to watch that again at some point

Seriously, in my earlier viewings I tended to be very Ennis-centred, watching his every move and expression, so I missed quite a lot of things that Jack was doing (especially the facial expressions and sighs when Ennis is washing himself) I've concentrated more on Jack in recent times, but I clearly need to try harder!

[christie wood]

I can't read this whole thread right now, though I'd like nothing better...but here's what I noticed in this scene last time I watched.  You know how you find yourself looking at one of them and not seeing something cool the other one's doing?  Well, I'm always looking at Ennis -- his beating the stick in time to Jack's singing and all that; and later, I'm still looking at him when he says this very flirty thing...and so I've missed, after Ennis says "...ain't never had the opportunity," that Jack says "Mmmmm...." and then a full-wattage smile on his face.  I love it.

kathy

Jeez - I've never spotted that either. Might need to watch that again at some point

Seriously, in my earlier viewings I tended to be very Ennis-centred, watching his every move and expression, so I missed quite a lot of things that Jack was doing (especially the facial expressions and sighs when Ennis is washing himself) I've concentrated more on Jack in recent times, but I clearly need to try harder!

I had noticed that thing Jack does, but only on about the 50th time of viewing! As like you Lindsey, I tend to look completely at Ennis, he captivates my attention.  But when you look at Jack, and he goes "mmmm" while handing the whiskey back to Ennis, its so clearly a flirty exchange, no doubt about it.  But Ennis being Ennis, he's totally embarrassed, and can hardly look at Jack again, oh I love that bit so much, when he takes the whiskey and says "thank you" with that smile on his face. I think Jack's reaction to that line from Ennis is one of surprise too, because I dont think Jack expected Ennis to say such a thing!  Dont think Ennis did either come to that.   

[welshwitch]

I wonder where the expression came from - Ennis doesn't seem to have much connection with organised religion - was this something he got from his mother when he was a child? Ennis always seems to have a sense of sin, of consequences, that's one of the things that must hold him back emotionally. But at this point - because he's been drinking? is feeling more relaxed than he's ever done before? is carried along by Jack and says things he otherwise wouldn't? is trying out ways of behaving he's never explored before? - he suddenly makes a slightly suggestive comment ( and that's not typical of him) about a serious topic ( ditto).

[BBBOY]

My personal take on this scene is that Ennis has finally reached a point where he can be open and trusting with Jack about himself. From my experience, most 19 year olds back in the early 60's were loath to admit that they were virgins. Jacks smile is one of recognition of how much Ennis has opened up to him.

[Patriot1]

I think Jack's reaction to that line from Ennis is one of surprise too, because I dont think Jack expected Ennis to say such a thing!  Dont think Ennis did either come to that.   

Oh sure they did christie wood. It was in the script, page 17, about 2/3 the way down. 

[ksxks]

I can't read this whole thread right now, though I'd like nothing better...but here's what I noticed in this scene last time I watched.  You know how you find yourself looking at one of them and not seeing something cool the other one's doing?  Well, I'm always looking at Ennis -- his beating the stick in time to Jack's singing and all that; and later, I'm still looking at him when he says this very flirty thing...and so I've missed, after Ennis says "...ain't never had the opportunity," that Jack says "Mmmmm...." and then a full-wattage smile on his face.  I love it.

kathy

Jeez - I've never spotted that either. Might need to watch that again at some point

Seriously, in my earlier viewings I tended to be very Ennis-centred, watching his every move and expression, so I missed quite a lot of things that Jack was doing (especially the facial expressions and sighs when Ennis is washing himself) I've concentrated more on Jack in recent times, but I clearly need to try harder!

I had noticed that thing Jack does, but only on about the 50th time of viewing! As like you Lindsey, I tend to look completely at Ennis, he captivates my attention.  But when you look at Jack, and he goes "mmmm" while handing the whiskey back to Ennis, its so clearly a flirty exchange, no doubt about it.  But Ennis being Ennis, he's totally embarrassed, and can hardly look at Jack again, oh I love that bit so much, when he takes the whiskey and says "thank you" with that smile on his face. I think Jack's reaction to that line from Ennis is one of surprise too, because I dont think Jack expected Ennis to say such a thing!  Dont think Ennis did either come to that.   

Oh yes indeed, what a wonderful scene.  Now I got ants in my pants to get home and watch -- it's been a while since I've indulged.  I love how you point out that Ennis didn't really expect himself to be so flirty and then is embarrassed, after Jack's response, who also didn't expect that flirtiness.  Also, about Ennis saying thank you when Jack hands him the whiskey bottle.  I think he also says thank you when Jack pours some in his cup when by the fire, in the "more'n you spoke in two weeks" scene.  I think that's when.  And also in the beginning, in the bar, when Jack hands him his lighter.

An OT aside.  I have a theory about this, the thank-you's.  Nothing earthshaking or anything...but I've noticed at times what a very polite man Heath is.  Manners in a sense that many people don't have these days.  Probably the way he was raised.  Anyway, he probably put in all those thank-you's out of his own personal habit.

kathy

[shieldmaid]

Oh yes indeed, what a wonderful scene.  Now I got ants in my pants to get home and watch -- it's been a while since I've indulged.  I love how you point out that Ennis didn't really expect himself to be so flirty and then is embarrassed, after Jack's response, who also didn't expect that flirtiness.  Also, about Ennis saying thank you when Jack hands him the whiskey bottle.  I think he also says thank you when Jack pours some in his cup when by the fire, in the "more'n you spoke in two weeks" scene.  I think that's when.  And also in the beginning, in the bar, when Jack hands him his lighter.

An OT aside.  I have a theory about this, the thank-you's.  Nothing earthshaking or anything...but I've noticed at times what a very polite man Heath is.  Manners in a sense that many people don't have these days.  Probably the way he was raised.  Anyway, he probably put in all those thank-you's out of his own personal habit.

kathy

I love to think that, too, kathy, because I always think of one thing Heath says in the LOGOS special interview--that he always likes to bare his soul a little in films.  I like to think that he did a *lot* of soul-baring in this film! 

Sorry--know that was  .  Hmm . . .  But really, didn't Jack really show Ennis that it wouldn't be a sin to become a sinner with him??  (if that makes any sense at all) 

[aintfoolin]

I agree with all the above. This is one of my favorite scenes in this classic film. As was mentioned before relaxed a little by the whiskey Ennis is open about his attraction to Jack with his comment about oppotunity.Jack sure picked up on it right away evidenced by the Hmmmmmm. and hands Ennis more whiskey. The way Ennis looks away then back at Jack is just too SWEET.

[ksxks]

I agree with all the above. This is one of my favorite scenes in this classic film. As was mentioned before relaxed a little by the whiskey Ennis is open about his attraction to Jack with his comment about oppotunity.Jack sure picked up on it right away evidenced by the Hmmmmmm. and hands Ennis more whiskey. The way Ennis looks away then back at Jack is just too SWEET.

Oh boy -- gotta go watch that again.  I don't think I saw that close enough.  Probably concentrating on Jack's Mmmmm and smile, once I picked up on that.  What a lovely scene!

kathy

[Valandil Eluch]

I agree with all the above. This is one of my favorite scenes in this classic film. As was mentioned before relaxed a little by the whiskey Ennis is open about his attraction to Jack with his comment about oppotunity.Jack sure picked up on it right away evidenced by the Hmmmmmm. and hands Ennis more whiskey. The way Ennis looks away then back at Jack is just too SWEET.

LOL i do remember that part!

[aintfoolin]

  I read that some think that Jack got Ennis drunk on purpose as part of his seduction of Ennis, I think this could be a possibility. , since Jack does'nt seem to wasted himself. After all by this time Ennis should be thinkin about going back to the sheep right? Instead he ends up totally wasted, unable to stand let alone ride back up into the mountains ona horse!.OR... maybe Ennis had no intention of leaving in the first place. It's the way he looked at Jack with the opportunity comment that told Jack that Ennis was interestd , willing and as we saw very able.   Objective Reached.in any case.

[City Slickin' Cowboy]

I think they were both having a good time with the whiskey.  Ennis was especially having a good time because he opened up to Jack and obviously had become quite comfortable around him.

[ksxks]

I think they were both having a good time with the whiskey.  Ennis was especially having a good time because he opened up to Jack and obviously had become quite comfortable around him.

Your having said that about Ennis being comfortable and having a good time, reminds me also of his beating time with the stick when Jack was singing -- another loosened-up Ennis kind of thing, from a generally held-in person.  And probably he wasn't used to getting all that wasted (though he did like his beer), and so yes, he was having fun...and continued to.  OT, but I loved when Ennis was crawling on all fours, couldn't get up to go up to the sheep, and giving Jack a nice view there...

As to Jack not being all that drunk just before he went into the tent, is kind of a mystery.  Maybe he could hold his liquor better?

kathy

[CherryCake]

I think they were both having a good time with the whiskey.  Ennis was especially having a good time because he opened up to Jack and obviously had become quite comfortable around him.

Your having said that about Ennis being comfortable and having a good time, reminds me also of his beating time with the stick when Jack was singing -- another loosened-up Ennis kind of thing, from a generally held-in person.  And probably he wasn't used to getting all that wasted (though he did like his beer), and so yes, he was having fun...and continued to.  OT, but I loved when Ennis was crawling on all fours, couldn't get up to go up to the sheep, and giving Jack a nice view there...

As to Jack not being all that drunk just before he went into the tent, is kind of a mystery.  Maybe he could hold his liquor better?

kathy

Well, I can remember several scenes where Jack is pouring Ennis whiskey, or handing him the bottle.  Jack was getting Ennis liqoured up.

[CherryCake]

I think they were both having a good time with the whiskey.  Ennis was especially having a good time because he opened up to Jack and obviously had become quite comfortable around him.

Your having said that about Ennis being comfortable and having a good time, reminds me also of his beating time with the stick when Jack was singing -- another loosened-up Ennis kind of thing, from a generally held-in person.  And probably he wasn't used to getting all that wasted (though he did like his beer), and so yes, he was having fun...and continued to.  OT, but I loved when Ennis was crawling on all fours, couldn't get up to go up to the sheep, and giving Jack a nice view there...

As to Jack not being all that drunk just before he went into the tent, is kind of a mystery.  Maybe he could hold his liquor better?

kathy

Well, I can remember several scenes where Jack is pouring Ennis whiskey, or handing him the bottle.  Jack was getting Ennis liquored up.

[christie wood]

I think they were both having a good time with the whiskey.  Ennis was especially having a good time because he opened up to Jack and obviously had become quite comfortable around him.

Your having said that about Ennis being comfortable and having a good time, reminds me also of his beating time with the stick when Jack was singing -- another loosened-up Ennis kind of thing, from a generally held-in person.  And probably he wasn't used to getting all that wasted (though he did like his beer), and so yes, he was having fun...and continued to.  OT, but I loved when Ennis was crawling on all fours, couldn't get up to go up to the sheep, and giving Jack a nice view there...

As to Jack not being all that drunk just before he went into the tent, is kind of a mystery.  Maybe he could hold his liquor better?

kathy

Oh I love that bit, when Ennis is tapping along to Jack's singing.....shame we didnt get to hear Ennis sing though, cos he does sing in the story.

But yes, its so sweet, all the enjoyment they had sitting together, singing and drinking, and flirting.....

[welshwitch]

Might just be that Jack's more experienced in all sorts of ways, including drinking, and has more tolerance for alcohol than Ennis does. Ennis has lived with his family/siblins till recently and maybe hasn't had much chance to drink a lot at a time?

On the mountain there are no reins on him in this, as in other, ways.

[aintfoolin]

This is only job I know of where your boss  actually supplies yuo booze......wish mine would, either that or Jack has a permanent stash hidden somewhere. Maybe he has a secret deal with the guy who brings the supplies, since he is always the one who pulls out the whiskey.!

[welshwitch]

Yes and the endless cigarettes too. What was that awful song about " Cigareets and whiskey and wild, wild women"? Evidently Aguirre didn't supply the latter.

So cirrhosis and ling-cancer were OK as job-related benefits.

Aguirre seems to have had an odd concept of supplies - plenty of booze but no basic groceries???

[aintfoolin]

Can you see it ? Laptop, notepad, Jim Beam. ready for a hard days work. Smile.....

[edgar]

Might just be that Jack's more experienced in all sorts of ways, including drinking, and has more tolerance for alcohol than Ennis does. Ennis has lived with his family/siblins till recently and maybe hasn't had much chance to drink a lot at a time?

On the mountain there are no reins on him in this, as in other, ways.

Both were from poor families, but I guess Ennis lived in more abject poverty, so there was no money for whiskey. Jack's dad probably kept a bottle around somewhere, and Jack stole a taste now and then.

And Jack did the rodeo thing more, which involved spending a portion of your winnings for alcohol afterward. Or if you're lucky, someone buying you a drink.

[welshwitch]

Jack's father had been a bull-rider too, so he'd have been in a drinking environment.And as I don't like him and I don't like people who drink ( I mean seriously), I've decided he was an ugly drunk - sheer prejudice, this. On the rodeo circuit Jack would drink with the others - as you say, Edgar, part of the culture - and  because he's a sociable character.

I've decided that I like Jack because he is a sinner - he drinks and smokes, breaks the rules, swears, lies and is generally the sort of person it would be good to be. Ennis is not a natural sinner - OK he smokes and drinks but often because Jack offers him booze, but he doesn't swear, wants to do what Aguirre wants,  is fixated on getting back to the sheep most of the time, keeps his promises and is a general nause. I would not want ot be stuck on a desert isalnd with anyone who at nineteen hasn't already been a sinner.

So there.

[aintfoolin]

Yeah but he can cook, shoot,ride really well among other things. Besides He does'nt always do what Ag says. Remember in one of the first scenes he has a blazing fire going so Jack can see him. Also to keep warm and cook breakfast for Jack right? He 'sthe kind of man I'd want around in a tough spot.

[welshwitch]

They can have a fire in the main camp - it's just the illegal one up on the mountain where the Forest Service wouldn't allow them to stay overnight in which the herder can't have a fire. I always think that Aguirre, in designating Jack the herder, wants to see him uncomfortable - he evidently resents the sheep lost the year before.


I can cook, I'm violently allergic to horses and don't need a man to shoot my food! I'd say the wrong thing and he'd probably strangle me. Jack can't cook worth a damn  (good, he'd appreciate my cooking), is a kluts, always dropping things (endearing), can't shoot ( neither can I), knows what he wants sexually ( no comment). He is also gay but four out of five ain't bad.

Anyone who can get Ennis to flirt is a world-class psychologist, IMO.

[CherryCake]

Yeah but he can cook, shoot,ride really well among other things. Besides He does'nt always do what Ag says. Remember in one of the first scenes he has a blazing fire going so Jack can see him. Also to keep warm and cook breakfast for Jack right? He 'sthe kind of man I'd want around in a tough spot.

Personally, I think the night fire was just a plot device...how else would Jack have seen where Ennis was on that dark mountain?   We get to see Jack looking up and thinking of Ennis. It was a beautiful shot.  Ennis would not have  had a fire, especially one that big, for fear of being caught. 

[NoReins]

I've decided that I like Jack because he is a sinner - he drinks and smokes, breaks the rules, swears, lies and is generally the sort of person it would be good to be. Ennis is not a natural sinner - OK he smokes and drinks but often because Jack offers him booze, but he doesn't swear, wants to do what Aguirre wants,  is fixated on getting back to the sheep most of the time, keeps his promises and is a general nause. I would not want ot be stuck on a desert isalnd with anyone who at nineteen hasn't already been a sinner.

So there.

Yes he does - when he arrives back in camp after the incident with the bear, the first thing he says as he gets off his horse is "f*ck it"

[frances]

I agree with all the above. This is one of my favorite scenes in this classic film. As was mentioned before relaxed a little by the whiskey Ennis is open about his attraction to Jack with his comment about oppotunity.Jack sure picked up on it right away evidenced by the Hmmmmmm. and hands Ennis more whiskey. The way Ennis looks away then back at Jack is just too SWEET.

Jack hands him the bottle of whiskey, as if to say "I'll give you an opportunity, buddy"
Indeed, Ennis takes it (the bottle/opportunity to come?), and even says "thank you"