Topic: What if... ?!

[myprivatejack]

Yes, I was actually thinking of how this in most real life situation whould have led to a break-up.  I would say that few people would have undergone such a treatment.

Yes,the problem is that maybe Jack depended too much on Ennis for his own happiness.And Ennis depended too much of himself for Jack's and his own happiness too.And because of that,he took for granted that Jack loved him and kept on being by his side,in no matter what circomstances.

[vedrana]

I think Ennis was also sensitive to Jack's feelings.  He might have compromised had he known how Jack really felt, IMO.  But then again, perhaps he was blind by choice to the possibility of Jack hurting...

I think that you're right here - he was blind by choice. That was often his way - to put his head in the sand to avoid an open confrontation with problems. But also, as deep inside he loved Jack, surely he was sensitive to his feelings, but obviously not enough to acknowledge  them. 

[tpe]

Yes,the problem is that maybe Jack depended too much on Ennis for his own happiness.And Ennis depended too much of himself for Jack's and his own happiness too.And because of that,he took for granted that Jack loved him and kept on being by his side,in no matter what circomstances.

I remember a passage from Perl Buck's novel "Peony".  About a lover being subject to his love, and that freedom and happiness can only be attained when the lover does not rely on that love for happiness.

[tpe]

I think that you're right here - he was blind by choice. That was often his way - to put his head in the sand to avoid an open confrontation with problems. But also, as deep inside he loved Jack, surely he was sensitive to his feelings, but obviously not enough to acknowledge  them. 

As MPJ had noted, I think this deliberate choice to be blind is rooted on his belief that happiness hinges completely on his love for Ennis.  Had he been less rigid about this, he may have understood that to risk that happiness for a greater good/truth would have gotten him closer to his goal, paradoxically.

[vedrana]

As MPJ had noted, I think this deliberate choice to be blind is rooted on his belief that happiness hinges completely on his love for Ennis.  Had he been less rigid about this, he may have understood that to risk that happiness for a greater good/truth would have gotten him closer to his goal, paradoxically.

Can you explain who is who here?
Hm.. maybe it is me again, but I can not find the connection...   cos I was thinking that Ennis was blind by his choice, and here it seems that you're talking about Jack's blindness...

[tpe]

Can you explain who is who here?
Hm.. maybe it is me again, but I can not find the connection...   cos I was thinking that Ennis was blind by his choice, and here it seems that you're talking about Jack's blindness...

Theyn were both blind.  But we were talking about Jack's blindness, and his inability to force the issue on Ennis, even at the risk of pushing Ennis into a corner and making him make a choice...

[vedrana]

Theyn were both blind.  But we were talking about Jack's blindness, and his inability to force the issue on Ennis, even at the risk of pushing Ennis into a corner and making him make a choice...

It is me again, huh? 

 

I get it now! And yes! I agree that he sadly also showed a great deal of blindness when it came to his relationship with Ennis and achieving the goal of sweet life with him! 

[babytammy7]

Theyn were both blind.  But we were talking about Jack's blindness, and his inability to force the issue on Ennis, even at the risk of pushing Ennis into a corner and making him make a choice...

Hello, handsome. I missed you yesterday. 

For me it was not blindness. It was devotion. Jack did not force the issue on Ennis because he knew that he could lose Ennis if he pushed too much, but, above all, he knew that it'd hurt Ennis, like it did in the last confrontation, and he was unable to hurt his man. Putting Ennis between a rock and a hard place could be too much for Ennis...I mean, Ennis' life was already miserable, and the only thing that made him go on were his fishing trips with Jack. But Ennis also loved his girls with his whole heart and he was afraid of them finding that he was queer and then hating him or something, and he sure didn't want to leave them when he was still married to Alma. So had Jack forced the issue and made Ennis to decided, it could have shattered Ennis to the bone...because he couldn't live without Jack, but he couldn't live either without his family and his facade of straight man, the one he was not ashamed of. And also, you know that fear of death is something tremendously powerful and not easy to overcome. Ennis was afraid of losing his life but also he was afraid of Jack dying. So maybe if Jack had made Ennis choose, Ennis still had chose to quit Jack, because Jack’s life was so precious to him, the most important thing ever, and he surely preferred to be alone and without Jack than having Jack for a few time and then to live the rest of his life like Rich, and what it’s worse, thinking that Jack died because of him, and that it was his fault. Ennis had a huge break down in the confrontation scene. I bet Jack knew all along that he couldn't put his man in a situation like that...

Yeah, Thomas, maybe Ennis would changed.....or like you and me talked in another thread about what Ennis had done had Jack survived the accident, maybe he had not changed....Maybe Ennis had lived an empty miserable life full of longing for Jack but without him, if he was forced to decided....Maybe Jack knew all that. Ennis already chose once to live without Jack when he left the mountain....he could do it again, even if that tore his heart apart.

This is only MHO, you know that, but as a good Jack's girl I am, you know I don't think that Jack was blind. 

[myprivatejack]

Good post,Tammy ¡  I'd only add that,for me,is not as much blindness or devotion,as fear.Fear of loosing Ennis if he pushed him against the ropes,but also fear of keep on living that way.Somehow,Jack ended by living as his Ennis contradictions.

[tpe]

It is me again, huh? 

 

I get it now! And yes! I agree that he sadly also showed a great deal of blindness when it came to his relationship with Ennis and achieving the goal of sweet life with him! 

He tried to turn the other way -- ignoring the symptoms of the bigger problem on why Ennis would not agree to a sweet life.

[tpe]

Hello, handsome. I missed you yesterday. 

For me it was not blindness. It was devotion. Jack did not force the issue on Ennis because he knew that he could lose Ennis if he pushed too much, but, above all, he knew that it'd hurt Ennis, like it did in the last confrontation, and he was unable to hurt his man. Putting Ennis between a rock and a hard place could be too much for Ennis...I mean, Ennis' life was already miserable, and the only thing that made him go on were his fishing trips with Jack. But Ennis also loved his girls with his whole heart and he was afraid of them finding that he was queer and then hating him or something, and he sure didn't want to leave them when he was still married to Alma. So had Jack forced the issue and made Ennis to decided, it could have shattered Ennis to the bone...because he couldn't live without Jack, but he couldn't live either without his family and his facade of straight man, the one he was not ashamed of. And also, you know that fear of death is something tremendously powerful and not easy to overcome. Ennis was afraid of losing his life but also he was afraid of Jack dying. So maybe if Jack had made Ennis choose, Ennis still had chose to quit Jack, because Jack’s life was so precious to him, the most important thing ever, and he surely preferred to be alone and without Jack than having Jack for a few time and then to live the rest of his life like Rich, and what it’s worse, thinking that Jack died because of him, and that it was his fault. Ennis had a huge break down in the confrontation scene. I bet Jack knew all along that he couldn't put his man in a situation like that...

Yeah, Thomas, maybe Ennis would changed.....or like you and me talked in another thread about what Ennis had done had Jack survived the accident, maybe he had not changed....Maybe Ennis had lived an empty miserable life full of longing for Jack but without him, if he was forced to decided....Maybe Jack knew all that. Ennis already chose once to live without Jack when he left the mountain....he could do it again, even if that tore his heart apart.

This is only MHO, you know that, but as a good Jack's girl I am, you know I don't think that Jack was blind. 

Well, this is another side of the coin.  I do also tend to agree that it was more about TOTAL devotion -- a surrendering to the other in spite of the effects.  But devotion does not mean that there is no blindness, correct?  In fact, it is a common phrase often used: "a blind devotion"...  Also, "love is blind"...

[vedrana]

He tried to turn the other way -- ignoring the symptoms of the bigger problem on why Ennis would not agree to a sweet life.

Yesterday I've read some parts of SS and I've noticed a sentence in the motel scene when Jack asks:
Every once in a 4 f***ing ears, and then Ennis "wanted to ask whose fault it was, but he held back those words" - meaning that Ennis thought that Jack leaving for Texas was to blame for so long period that they hadn't met.

So, Ennis had some ideas of being with Jack sort of, but was he really ready to leave everything and go for it.... now when Baby Tammy wrote so long post, I am not sure myself any more.... 

I always thought that he would've, but would he really? Isn't it only the Jack's death, the worst of the worst outcome that finally let him open his eyes? I don't know!

And when was the most promising situation for Jack to grasp his chances and to make Ennis embrace their sweet life together? That is, if there's any...

[tpe]

Yesterday I've read some parts of SS and I've noticed a sentence in the motel scene when Jack asks:
Every once in a 4 f***ing ears, and then Ennis "wanted to ask whose fault it was, but he held back those words" - meaning that Ennis thought that Jack leaving for Texas was to blame for so long period that they hadn't met.

So, Ennis had some ideas of being with Jack sort of, but was he really ready to leave everything and go for it.... now when Baby Tammy wrote so long post, I am not sure myself any more.... 

I always thought that he would've, but would he really? Isn't it only the Jack's death, the worst of the worst outcome that finally let him open his eyes? I don't know!

And when was the most promising situation for Jack to grasp his chances and to make Ennis embrace their sweet life together? That is, if there's any...

Well, I would tend to think that it was simply a convenient excuse.  Ennis, alas, never really went out of his way to look for Jack -- preferring the more passive strategy of simply waiting...  He certainly thought about Jack all the time, but it was largely done without much thought of direct action, don't you agree?

[myprivatejack]

Well, I would tend to think that it was simply a convenient excuse.  Ennis, alas, never really went out of his way to look for Jack -- preferring the more passive strategy of simply waiting...  He certainly thought about Jack all the time, but it was largely done without much thought of direct action, don't you agree?

Yes,it's true... But,in his case,thinking is an easy and private action;but doing a further step is more"public",too public to dare to do it.Even if I'm moved thinking how much Ennis must suffer saying "no" so many times,to Jack,yes,but also to himself.And this last "no" is what hurts the most... :\'(

[vedrana]

Well, I would tend to think that it was simply a convenient excuse.  Ennis, alas, never really went out of his way to look for Jack -- preferring the more passive strategy of simply waiting...  He certainly thought about Jack all the time, but it was largely done without much thought of direct action, don't you agree?

I agree! I think that sometimes I am not fair to Ennis, cos I always resent him his refusal to live with Jack. But I am not the person who should know about his fears!  I can only try to imagine, but I can't understand it 100%. He had it all in front of him, and he was so afraid to do a little step more...

But let me ask again - when do you think that Jack's chances would be the best? What would you do if you were Jack, to persuade Ennis to go for a sweet life together?

[tpe]

Yes,it's true... But,in his case,thinking is an easy and private action;but doing a further step is more"public",too public to dare to do it.Even if I'm moved thinking how much Ennis must suffer saying "no" so many times,to Jack,yes,but also to himself.And this last "no" is what hurts the most... :\'(

I agree! I think that sometimes I am not fair to Ennis, cos I always resent him his refusal to live with Jack. But I am not the person who should know about his fears!  I can only try to imagine, but I can't understand it 100%. He had it all in front of him, and he was so afraid to do a little step more...

But let me ask again - when do you think that Jack's chances would be the best? What would you do if you were Jack, to persuade Ennis to go for a sweet life together?

And to be fair to Ennis -- he honestly believed that it would have been dangerous for both of them to have been in such a relationship. I guess he thought he had Jack's best interests in mind also when he chose to stay away.  Ennis clearly thought about Jack frequently during the years of separation...

I think Jack's best chance was in 63 on BBM.  Once Ennis married Alma, things got too complicated.

[vedrana]

And to be fair to Ennis -- he honestly believed that it would have been dangerous for both of them to have been in such a relationship. I guess he thought he had Jack's best interests in mind also when he chose to stay away.  Ennis clearly thought about Jack frequently during the years of separation...

I think Jack's best chance was in 63 on BBM.  Once Ennis married Alma, things got too complicated.

I can only imagine how much Ennis was thinking of Jack and vice versa all those years... :\'(

1963 had it's chances, but maybe back then they were still not aware of the power that holds him together, of the love that already grew huge... That was the problem, but yes - if they recognize their feelings then, the chances for accepting the sweet life were the best!

[tpe]

We did see his distant look while lating asphalt on the ground -- for me, it is clearly a moment when he was thinking of Jack.

Whether or not they were aware, I still think it was the best time to have made things happen.  After that, there was just one complication after the next.  Had they takena leap early on, perhaps they could have worked things out even as they became more and more aware of how they felt for the other.

[vedrana]

We did see his distant look while lating asphalt on the ground -- for me, it is clearly a moment when he was thinking of Jack.

Whether or not they were aware, I still think it was the best time to have made things happen.  After that, there was just one complication after the next.  Had they takena leap early on, perhaps they could have worked things out even as they became more and more aware of how they felt for the other.

Can you please explain this?

Anyway all the complications were coming from Ennis - for Jack things were pretty much simple all the time.

Jack! 

[myprivatejack]

I agree.If they have been able to recognise their feelings-specially Ennis,of course-in 1963,more still after having come down on the mountain,everything has been easier for both of them.We have often said that there wasn't such a happy and free moments for them as the first ones on BBM;so,if they have talked openly about this in this unbearably distant and cold conversation just before their first farewell,things would have been more definitive for them in a positive sense.After that,it's true,everything were problems and obstacles,and IMO,the more obstacles they had,the more obstacles they created,in a kind of vicious circle...

[tpe]

Can you please explain this?

Anyway all the complications were coming from Ennis - for Jack things were pretty much simple all the time.

Jack! 

Type.  I meant to say: while he was laying asphalt on the road.

Yes, things would have been much different had Jack had the upper hand.  What could have happened in this situation is a bit easier for me to see -- the sweet life, whatever consequences it may lead to.

[tpe]

I agree.If they have been able to recognise their feelings-specially Ennis,of course-in 1963,more still after having come down on the mountain,everything has been easier for both of them.We have often said that there wasn't such a happy and free moments for them as the first ones on BBM;so,if they have talked openly about this in this unbearably distant and cold conversation just before their first farewell,things would have been more definitive for them in a positive sense.After that,it's true,everything were problems and obstacles,and IMO,the more obstacles they had,the more obstacles they created,in a kind of vicious circle...

I really think their failure to come to terms with their feelings after they came down the Mountain in 63 was the pivot on which the entire tragedy unfolds.  The 4 years of separation were crucial -- perhaps even the deciding factor/moment.  I think after that, it was pretty much difficult to change course...

[myprivatejack]

I really think their failure to come to terms with their feelings after they came down the Mountain in 63 was the pivot on which the entire tragedy unfolds.  The 4 years of separation were crucial -- perhaps even the deciding factor/moment.  I think after that, it was pretty much difficult to change course...

I only can but quote this...This very scene of their first farewell after coming down BBM was in the middle of all their following problems.

[vedrana]

I really think their failure to come to terms with their feelings after they came down the Mountain in 63 was the pivot on which the entire tragedy unfolds.  The 4 years of separation were crucial -- perhaps even the deciding factor/moment.  I think after that, it was pretty much difficult to change course...

I am not so sure about this... After 4 years they found out that the feelings have not gone, Jack had an opportunity to fetch some money from LD...
Ennis's marriage was going down after a few years of the fishing trips. What I want to say is that all the things were pointing to one aim - the sweet life with Jack! As complicated as it seemed, it was the only road to their happiness.

[atalley]

I agree Loreen, but we need to remember the fear that gripped Ennis was so strong that he was unable to even think of the "sweet life" w/ Jack.  All he could think of was the tire iron, & in the end his worse fears were made known.

[vedrana]

I agree Loreen, but we need to remember the fear that gripped Ennis was so strong that he was unable to even think of the "sweet life" w/ Jack.  All he could think of was the tire iron, & in the end his worse fears were made known.

Sure. That stupid fear overcame all their chances.
I was only referring to the circumstances which were not so unfavorable. Unfortunately ... that didn't help. :\'(

[tpe]

I only can but quote this...This very scene of their first farewell after coming down BBM was in the middle of all their following problems.

I agree.  For me, it was the critical point.

I am not so sure about this... After 4 years they found out that the feelings have not gone, Jack had an opportunity to fetch some money from LD...
Ennis's marriage was going down after a few years of the fishing trips. What I want to say is that all the things were pointing to one aim - the sweet life with Jack! As complicated as it seemed, it was the only road to their happiness.

Lack of money would not have stopped them, in any case.  And the fact that both of them were married and had children after the 4 years gave Ennis the excuse to turn down Jack's proposal.  Even the subsequent failure of Ennis's marriage did not change things, since the children was still the reason given by Ennis for resisting any such move with Jack.

[tpe]

I agree Loreen, but we need to remember the fear that gripped Ennis was so strong that he was unable to even think of the "sweet life" w/ Jack.  All he could think of was the tire iron, & in the end his worse fears were made known.

That is a good point.  The fear did grow stronger in the intervening years.   Whatever emotional headway/momentum that was made immediately after the summer of 63 was perhaps lost.

[vedrana]

Lack of money would not have stopped them, in any case.  And the fact that both of them were married and had children after the 4 years gave Ennis the excuse to turn down Jack's proposal.  Even the subsequent failure of Ennis's marriage did not change things, since the children was still the reason given by Ennis for resisting any such move with Jack.

Hm... I think that if they wanted a new life, a certain amount of the money in the pocket would be more than welcomed. 

I also agree that Ennis was looking for the excuses... that's all. First Marriage, then children (whom BTW he was seeing a few times a year??!!).... So, it wasn't about that 4 years or the complications -it was always and only that complexed state of Ennis's mind which was the obstacle from the very beginning, that is from the punch on the last day on Brokeback!

[tpe]

Hm... I think that if they wanted a new life, a certain amount of the money in the pocket would be more than welcomed. 

I also agree that Ennis was looking for the excuses... that's all. First Marriage, then children (whom BTW he was seeing a few times a year??!!).... So, it wasn't about that 4 years or the complications -it was always and only that complexed state of Ennis's mind which was the obstacle from the very beginning, that is from the punch on the last day on Brokeback!

Welcome, but not necessary, I think. 

With enough money, they could have bought a ranch of their own, and not have planned to stay in the LF ranch. 

Yes, I think it was one excuse after another.  After the divorce and the sad scene of jack being turned away, I think Jack got it -- that there would always be some reason for Ennis to say "no".