Author Topic: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "  (Read 168857 times)

babytammy7

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Re: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "
« Reply #150 on: Nov 25, 2007, 08:59 AM »
Well the Jack I swear can be means almost anything we feel that it is in Ennis’ heart, like:

I won’t forget you; I loved you and I’ll always love you; I won’t make the same mistake; If I had known it, things would have been different……

But for me it have always mean: “Jack I swear…. I shouldn't a let you out of my sights." ‘Cause this is what Ennis always thought during the four years they were apart, and also during his whole life; and in the SS it was the most powerful declaration of love that Ennis did to Jack!!!

But yesterday I was writing in another thread about this film dubbing into Spanish, and suddenly I remember something……

As I said yesterday Spanish people watch the films dubbed into Spanish. My country has a deep tradition in dubbing  and the professionals in the matter makes an amazing and stunning work, really perfect, translating even the most extremely low sound. So when I saw BBM in Spanish I heard a lot more words and sounds (like whispers and snorts....) than when I saw it in original version (for example when Ennis arrives injured after his meeting with the bear, I heard more words in Spanish that in English Ennis and Jack seemed not to say…). The whole translation of BBM is completely faithful to the original, word by word, except the Jack I swear!!!

I saw BBM 4 times before I saw it in original version. When I heard that Ennis' sentence I was stunned…… ‘cause in Spanish he says : Jack, hay que ver. I don’t know how to translate it into English…..it’s literally “There’s something to see”, or something like "Jack, what things", but I don’t believe that it means the same thing…..I've looked for that in my dictionary and I've found something likes this: Jack, well I never……
I don’t know if that makes the same sense…  :-\\

That made me think……..We all see that Ennis was clearly impressed with the Junior’s declaration “yeah, he loves me” and that it made him think about Jack and his relationship, not only about his love for Jack and Jack’s love, but also about how ironic life was, ‘cause Alma had 19 years when she was so sure about Kurt’s love and her very love…..; the same age as Ennis when he met Jack, when he didn’t know what love meant. So thinking about this and since A.P. never says that he is talking about love, I think that it could be that Ennis was thinking how tough and strange and ironic life was: one day he was 19, he had Jack and a life in front of him, and the next day he was alone in his trailer, without Jack, with 20 heavy years of regret over his back, seeing that his little girl is now a woman and she knows what love is and she is not afraid of it. I think he is thinking out loud how life changes and how different you see things when it’s always too late.

I don’t know if this makes sense; my English is so limited and I can not express my thoughts as I would like. I know that in the Midwest people say I swear all the time. Here in Spain it's a very familiar term and it can means a whole host of things, depending on the situation; so maybe he wasn't vowing anything, just commenting on how moved he was with Junior’s declaration and that it was for him a powerful revelation in order to name what he have been feeling his whole life: Love!!! At that point, he was aware of a lot things that he didn't know before, so he probably was thinking/saying, I just didn't understand....

Really I don’t know…What a mess!!!!  (^)
But maybe Ennis was thinking about what a wise man said: Life goes on with or without us, huh?




« Last Edit: Nov 26, 2007, 06:31 AM by babytammy7 »

Offline jackster

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Re: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "
« Reply #151 on: Nov 25, 2007, 09:32 AM »

That made me think……..We all see that Ennis was clearly impressed with the Junior’s declaration “yeah, he loves me” and that it made him think about Jack and his relationship, not only about his love for Jack and Jack’s love, but also about how ironic life was, ‘cause Alma had 19 years when she was so sure about Kurt’s love and her very love…..; the same age as Ennis when he met Jack, when he didn’t know what love meant. So thinking about this and since A.P. never says that he is talking about love, I think that it could be that Ennis was thinking how tough and strange and ironic life was: one day he was 19, he had Jack and a life in front of him, and the next day he was alone in his trailer, without Jack, with 20 heavy years of regret over his back, seeing that his little girl is now a woman and that she knows what love is and she is not afraid of it. I think he is thinking out loud how life changes and how different you see things when it’s always too late.


Very beautifully (and clearly) said here babytammy.
Makes me wonder what would have happened if someone had asked Ennis, back in ’63 “Does he love you?”
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Offline tpe

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Re: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "
« Reply #152 on: Nov 26, 2007, 08:29 AM »
Well the Jack I swear can be means almost anything we feel that it is in Ennis’ heart, like:

I won’t forget you; I loved you and I’ll always love you; I won’t make the same mistake; If I had known it, things would have been different……

But for me it have always mean: “Jack I swear…. I shouldn't a let you out of my sights." ‘Cause this is what Ennis always thought during the four years they were apart, and also during his whole life; and in the SS it was the most powerful declaration of love that Ennis did to Jack!!!

But yesterday I was writing in another thread about this film dubbing into Spanish, and suddenly I remember something……

As I said yesterday Spanish people watch the films dubbed into Spanish. My country has a deep tradition in dubbing  and the professionals in the matter makes an amazing and stunning work, really perfect, translating even the most extremely low sound. So when I saw BBM in Spanish I heard a lot more words and sounds (like whispers and snorts....) than when I saw it in original version (for example when Ennis arrives injured after his meeting with the bear, I heard more words in Spanish that in English Ennis and Jack seemed not to say…). The whole translation of BBM is completely faithful to the original, word by word, except the Jack I swear!!!

I saw BBM 4 times before I saw it in original version. When I heard that Ennis' sentence I was stunned…… ‘cause in Spanish he says : Jack, hay que ver. I don’t know how to translate it into English…..it’s literally “There’s something to see”, or something like "Jack, what things", but I don’t believe that it means the same thing…..I've looked for that in my dictionary and I've found something likes this: Jack, well I never……
I don’t know if that makes the same sense…  :-\\

That made me think……..We all see that Ennis was clearly impressed with the Junior’s declaration “yeah, he loves me” and that it made him think about Jack and his relationship, not only about his love for Jack and Jack’s love, but also about how ironic life was, ‘cause Alma had 19 years when she was so sure about Kurt’s love and her very love…..; the same age as Ennis when he met Jack, when he didn’t know what love meant. So thinking about this and since A.P. never says that he is talking about love, I think that it could be that Ennis was thinking how tough and strange and ironic life was: one day he was 19, he had Jack and a life in front of him, and the next day he was alone in his trailer, without Jack, with 20 heavy years of regret over his back, seeing that his little girl is now a woman and she knows what love is and she is not afraid of it. I think he is thinking out loud how life changes and how different you see things when it’s always too late.

I don’t know if this makes sense; my English is so limited and I can not express my thoughts as I would like. I know that in the Midwest people say I swear all the time. Here in Spain it's a very familiar term and it can means a whole host of things, depending on the situation; so maybe he wasn't vowing anything, just commenting on how moved he was with Junior’s declaration and that it was for him a powerful revelation in order to name what he have been feeling his whole life: Love!!! At that point, he was aware of a lot things that he didn't know before, so he probably was thinking/saying, I just didn't understand....

Really I don’t know…What a mess!!!!  (^)
But maybe Ennis was thinking about what a wise man said: Life goes on with or without us, huh?






babytammy7, thank you.  This difference in the Spanish version is quite interesting.  I am thinking of the thought process of the Spanish traslators, on why they selected this expression, in particular.  I have always understood this phrase to imply an imperative -- you have to go and see, as in: "that you have to go and see before you die." (que hay que ver antes de morir).

Very beautifully (and clearly) said here babytammy.
Makes me wonder what would have happened if someone had asked Ennis, back in ’63 “Does he love you?”

jackster, I think it would have made a world of difference, had he heard this early on from someone else.


babytammy7

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Re: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "
« Reply #153 on: Nov 26, 2007, 08:50 AM »
babytammy7, thank you.  This difference in the Spanish version is quite interesting.  I am thinking of the thought process of the Spanish traslators, on why they selected this expression, in particular.  I have always understood this phrase to imply an imperative -- you have to go and see, as in: "that you have to go and see before you die." (que hay que ver antes de morir).

jackster, I think it would have made a world of difference, had he heard this early on from someone else.



Well Thomas, that spanish expression don't imply an imperative, it's more like "see what kind of things happens" or "it's incredible" or " to see to believe". Because of that I think Ennis was telling Jack how life changes and how ironic life is.

 *o) Beautiful spanish friend!!!  :clap:

Very beautifully (and clearly) said here babytammy.
Makes me wonder what would have happened if someone had asked Ennis, back in ’63 “Does he love you?”

Thank you so much Jackster!!!  Yeah, I wonder that too, everyday.

Offline tpe

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Re: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "
« Reply #154 on: Nov 26, 2007, 09:05 AM »
Well Thomas, that spanish expression don't imply an imperative, it's more like "see what kind of things happens" or "it's incredible" or " to see to believe". Because of that I think Ennis was telling Jack how life changes and how ironic life is.

 *o) Beautiful spanish friend!!!  :clap:

Thank you so much Jackster!!!  Yeah, I wonder that too, everyday.

babytammy7, it is really interesting then, the way they tranliterated the phrase.  There certainly seems to be more irony in the Spansh version than in the English original.  Perhaps it is too matter of fact, no?  Still, the effect must have been completely different.  I can only imagine how you felt when you discovered the difference when you saw the original for the first time...


babytammy7

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Re: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "
« Reply #155 on: Nov 26, 2007, 09:25 AM »
babytammy7, it is really interesting then, the way they tranliterated the phrase.  There certainly seems to be more irony in the Spansh version than in the English original.  Perhaps it is too matter of fact, no?  Still, the effect must have been completely different.  I can only imagine how you felt when you discovered the difference when you saw the original for the first time...



Yeah Thomas!!! I was stunned...  (t) (t) (t) Confused.... And because of that I'm wondering so hard now what is the meaning of that phrase.

But whatever, I prefer the original version: I LOVE THE JACK, I SWEAR!!!  <^(  <^(  <^(

Offline tpe

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Re: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "
« Reply #156 on: Nov 26, 2007, 09:29 AM »
Yeah Thomas!!! I was stunned...  (t) (t) (t) Confused.... And because of that I'm wondering so hard now what is the meaning of that phrase.

But whatever, I prefer the original version: I LOVE THE JACK, I SWEAR!!!  <^(  <^(  <^(

I think the original is more tantalizing -- and not matter of fact.  I wonder if the Spanish translators modified it because they thought it was too ambiguous.

Thanks, babytammy7, for bringing this up.  This is indeed a very big difference!


Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "
« Reply #157 on: Nov 27, 2007, 01:22 PM »
I think the original is more tantalizing -- and not matter of fact.  I wonder if the Spanish translators modified it because they thought it was too ambiguous.

Thanks, babytammy7, for bringing this up.  This is indeed a very big difference!


A person who knows the world of translation in dubbed movies told me about this-because for me it´s a nonsense and I let her know...-that sometimes they modify some phrases in order they remain more proper to lips movement and that,of course,in this sense was more similar to the original English "Jack,I swear..." the "Jack,hay que ver..." than the "...te juro"-that was the literal translation- that requires a very different lips movement when pronounce it.
Nevertheless,for me it really deprives of meaning the final phrase,whose main reason,IMO,is remain open to each one´s interpretation;and,of course,I can´t understand the possibility that,as you say Thomas,they had modified because they thought it was too ambiguous... ^*) They are nobody to change a masterpiece acording to their personal opinion¡.Well,Spanish are good inventor,but I don´t believe they´re too much¡ ;D
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
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You will be forever in my heart,friends.

Offline tpe

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Re: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "
« Reply #158 on: Nov 27, 2007, 01:51 PM »
A person who knows the world of translation in dubbed movies told me about this-because for me it´s a nonsense and I let her know...-that sometimes they modify some phrases in order they remain more proper to lips movement and that,of course,in this sense was more similar to the original English "Jack,I swear..." the "Jack,hay que ver..." than the "...te juro"-that was the literal translation- that requires a very different lips movement when pronounce it.
Nevertheless,for me it really deprives of meaning the final phrase,whose main reason,IMO,is remain open to each one´s interpretation;and,of course,I can´t understand the possibility that,as you say Thomas,they had modified because they thought it was too ambiguous... ^*) They are nobody to change a masterpiece acording to their personal opinion¡.Well,Spanish are good inventor,but I don´t believe they´re too much¡ ;D

This makes perfect sense, although I don't know if all the trouble taken was worth it.  But yes, it does sound like "I swear", no?  It makes perfect sense!


Offline lamusica

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Re: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "
« Reply #159 on: Nov 27, 2007, 04:04 PM »
In Ennis's last scene when he is looking at the postcard of BBM, what does the Spanish dubbing say?  Te juro? or Jack, hay que ver....?  The former seems to be in the meaning of the movie, and the latter seems to be unrelated to the meaning.  Am I right with that translation?  I swear to you = Te juro.

I do think the voice is extremely important in this movie and others.  It HAS to be Ennis's voice to carry the full meaning of his lines.  No other voice is similar enough to Ennis's to pull that off.  I love his voice, and find that to be one of his most attractive and endearing traits.  I can't imagine some other voice uttering those final words.
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Offline myprivatejack

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Re: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "
« Reply #160 on: Nov 27, 2007, 05:18 PM »
In Ennis's last scene when he is looking at the postcard of BBM, what does the Spanish dubbing say?  Te juro? or Jack, hay que ver....?  The former seems to be in the meaning of the movie, and the latter seems to be unrelated to the meaning.  Am I right with that translation?  I swear to you = Te juro.

I do think the voice is extremely important in this movie and others.  It HAS to be Ennis's voice to carry the full meaning of his lines.  No other voice is similar enough to Ennis's to pull that off.  I love his voice, and find that to be one of his most attractive and endearing traits.  I can't imagine some other voice uttering those final words.
In Spanish version Ennis says "Jack,hay que ver..."-if he says "...te juro", there´d be no problem,because it´d be the same than in the original version...-If you fix well in the phonetic ,you´ll see as the sound is more similar,of course rather more than "te juro".This doesn´t mean that I agree with this solution,because,as you say very well,there´s no the same meaning if you say one thing or the other.  :i
Ennis’s eyes gone bright with shock, mouth opening then closing again. “Love?” Ennis said finally, voice strangling in his throat.

Jack smiled sad. “Yeah, Ennis. Love.” Leaned forward and kissed Ennis’s temple, whispered, “What’d you think it was, all this time?”
("If I asked")
                         ----------------
Heathcliff Andrew Ledger (1979-2008)/Rajel Karen Ashkenazi (1986-2008)
You will be forever in my heart,friends.

babytammy7

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Re: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "
« Reply #161 on: Nov 27, 2007, 05:55 PM »
Well, for me that translation makes perfect sense since we all don't know for sure what is the meaning of Ennis words!!!

I wrote my post not to talk about that phrase dubbing into spanish but 'cause I found a new and different sense of the Jack, I swear, after thinking about it from another point of view, taking other possibilities and not only the typical Jack, I'll always love you and phrases like that!!!

I quoted myself to show again what I think could be the meaning of Ennis afirmation. I would like to know what you think about it, and what you think Ennis is saying!!!

Thank you so much!!!  ^f^


Well the Jack I swear can be means almost anything we feel that it is in Ennis’ heart, like:

I won’t forget you; I loved you and I’ll always love you; I won’t make the same mistake; If I had known it, things would have been different……

But for me it have always mean: “Jack I swear…. I shouldn't a let you out of my sights." ‘Cause this is what Ennis always thought during the four years they were apart, and also during his whole life; and in the SS it was the most powerful declaration of love that Ennis did to Jack!!!

But yesterday I was writing in another thread about this film dubbing into Spanish, and suddenly I remember something……

We all see that Ennis was clearly impressed with the Junior’s declaration “yeah, he loves me” and that it made him think about Jack and his relationship, not only about his love for Jack and Jack’s love, but also about how ironic life was, ‘cause Alma had 19 years when she was so sure about Kurt’s love and her very love…..; the same age as Ennis when he met Jack, when he didn’t know what love meant. So thinking about this and since A.P. never says that he is talking about love, I think that it could be that Ennis was thinking how tough and strange and ironic life was: one day he was 19, he had Jack and a life in front of him, and the next day he was alone in his trailer, without Jack, with 20 heavy years of regret over his back, seeing that his little girl is now a woman and she knows what love is and she is not afraid of it. I think he is thinking out loud how life changes and how different you see things when it’s always too late.

I don’t know if this makes sense; my English is so limited and I can not express my thoughts as I would like. I know that in the Midwest people say I swear all the time. Here in Spain it's a very familiar term and it can means a whole host of things, depending on the situation; so maybe he wasn't vowing anything, just commenting on how moved he was with Junior’s declaration and that it was for him a powerful revelation in order to name what he have been feeling his whole life: Love!!! At that point, he was aware of a lot things that he didn't know before, so he probably was thinking/saying, I just didn't understand....

Really I don’t know…What a mess!!!!  (^)
But maybe Ennis was thinking about what a wise man said: Life goes on with or without us, huh?





« Last Edit: Nov 27, 2007, 06:17 PM by babytammy7 »

Offline Tony

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Re: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "
« Reply #162 on: Nov 27, 2007, 10:36 PM »
   Hi, BabyTammy!  Your question is a tough one.  In foreign language classes, sometimes the assignment was to translate a very difficult phrase
into English.  Here, it's actually....explaining the English into.....further English.    Because you are a student of language, will not shy from
being technical.
   The phrase is suggestive, not declarative.  So, the meaning goes further than the words said, in and of themselves.  that can be 1) internal,
as in pregnant with interior meaning, or, 2) external, when further words are implied but dropped off because it is more powerful to imply them
than to say them.
   I think its- #2, a longer statement shortened to give it more power.  "...you meant so much to me..." is the easiest extension that would have
been dropped off, and, because of the context, that's what I think the extended meaning was.
  But, given the difficulty they both had in saying the "L" word, following close behind, I would vote for the extended statement..."I loved you.."
since he dropped a powerful extension back to a shorter phrase.
   But am absolutely sure, he did NOT mean---life goes on.  No possible way.
Very technical---but I love those words and your question was waving a red flag in front of a bull.  Other Brokies--please forgive.

Offline aintfoolin

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Re: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "
« Reply #163 on: Nov 27, 2007, 11:11 PM »
 Stemming from his "enlightenment" resulting frm his conversation with Alma Jr, I think he meant "Jack, after all is said and done you  have still found a way to have the last word ". "Regardless of my denials during our time together, you were showing me what love is all along. I know what you were doing  now and why." That's my interpretation, though there is much to be read into his words "Jack, I swear" more of a summation of the past and thinking in the present.
He is now aware of why Jack could'nt just leave him be and could'nt figure out how to just quit him after 20 years. A serious deep love for him.  My take.
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Offline tpe

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Re: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "
« Reply #164 on: Nov 28, 2007, 09:24 AM »


First I agree with Tony's comment that brevity in this case adds greater power.  This connects smoothly with aintfoolin's observation that this is a moment of enlightenment.  It is very much is the spirit of Zen/Chan "satori", no?  I would like to think that this was in the aithor's mind all along.  It was a moment of enlightenment for Ennis as well as for us, the readers/viewers.


Offline lamusica

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Re: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "
« Reply #165 on: Nov 28, 2007, 12:21 PM »
Babytammy, Tony, Aint and Tpe _ Your explanations are all apropos, in my opinion.  We can take Ennis's words to mean what feels right to us.  The words, combined with the tears in Ennis's eyes, is all that is needed to convey a great depth of feeling for Jack.  That's really all that is important.  What he never said in life ( I love you) was conveyed by those two words, with the tears, and the timbre of his aching voice.
"Let's put a SSSSMILE on your faceeee!"

manhattangirl

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Re: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "
« Reply #166 on: Nov 28, 2007, 05:46 PM »
I don't know for me it was like a covenant Ennis made with Jack, someone he loved more than he loved himself.   Like AP wrote these men never swore anything to each other.  But Ennis swore to Jack, and  remember, soon after that Jack returned to him in his dreams. 

Ennis did the one thing that he couldn't do while Jack was alive, acknowledge  and accept his love for Jack, and understand and honor Jack's love for him.  Then the battle within him ceased, wounded, bloodied, dealing with something he couldn't change, but promised the one thing he had to offer at that shrine he created,  he'll always love him.

That's how I like to think of that moment.

Offline Tony

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Re: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "
« Reply #167 on: Nov 28, 2007, 07:06 PM »
     Am always willing to change my mind, if someone gives a strong version that works.  Manhattengirl did.  It WAS a covenant oath, I think.
He was saying, I'll never forget this love, ever.  That fits bullseye, for me, instead of what I wrote above.  That alters the power of the ending
even more---an oath.  The very words of an oath, exactly, and the oath itself shortened to convey more power.  I'll never forget this love---
Jack,... I swear.......

Offline tpe

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Re: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "
« Reply #168 on: Nov 28, 2007, 07:16 PM »
I don't know for me it was like a covenant Ennis made with Jack, someone he loved more than he loved himself.   Like AP wrote these men never swore anything to each other.  But Ennis swore to Jack, and  remember, soon after that Jack returned to him in his dreams. 

Ennis did the one thing that he couldn't do while Jack was alive, acknowledge  and accept his love for Jack, and understand and honor Jack's love for him.  Then the battle within him ceased, wounded, bloodied, dealing with something he couldn't change, but promised the one thing he had to offer at that shrine he created,  he'll always love him.

That's how I like to think of that moment.

Thanks manhattangirl.  I do also think of it in terms of a covenant, as someone who promises a faithfulness unto death.


Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "
« Reply #169 on: Dec 01, 2007, 07:16 AM »
I don't know for me it was like a covenant Ennis made with Jack, someone he loved more than he loved himself.   Like AP wrote these men never swore anything to each other.  But Ennis swore to Jack, and  remember, soon after that Jack returned to him in his dreams. 

Ennis did the one thing that he couldn't do while Jack was alive, acknowledge  and accept his love for Jack, and understand and honor Jack's love for him.  Then the battle within him ceased, wounded, bloodied, dealing with something he couldn't change, but promised the one thing he had to offer at that shrine he created,  he'll always love him.

That's how I like to think of that moment.

That's beautiful, manhattangirl. :t) :ghug: :^^)
Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline Marge Innavera

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Re: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "
« Reply #170 on: Dec 22, 2007, 03:02 PM »
I look at it as  in sort of a "confirming" sense. The phrase "don't that just beat all I've ever seen " is another way of looking at it, expressing one's opinion of a whole set of circumstances or series of events. I think Ennis was expressing himself this way over the irony of events that took place in his life concerning Jack including his death. "never thought I'd see the day" also applies.

I know this is reviving a semi-inactive thread, but every time I view the last scene there's something I always wonder about:

The decision to attend Alma Junior's wedding can't be an easy one for Ennis. Even if Jack were still alive, it's a situation where he'll have to interact with Alma at least a few times and, after all, Alma is one one that Ennis knows for a fact "knows" -- unlike the people out "on the pavement" that he might imagine knows (but probably don't).  The decision to go ahead and attend, come what may, is something I can't see Ennis deciding to do earlier in the film.

What connection do y'all think that has with the loss of Jack, and with his final "I swear" statement?
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Offline chameau

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Re: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "
« Reply #171 on: Dec 23, 2007, 01:11 AM »
Interesting point you brought Marge about Ennis having to interact with Alma at Junior's wedding.  Despite this perspective he decides to go.  He deceived so many people in the past, Alma, Cassie and finally Jack.  I would say he's trying to pay back for the errors he commited and about Jack I swear... From this perspective I would say I swear I had another chance, go back and have this sweet life with you.
La dictature c'est ''ferme ta geule'', la démocratie c'est ''cause toujours''
 Jean-Louis Barrault

Offline lancecowboy

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Re: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "
« Reply #172 on: Dec 23, 2007, 03:21 AM »
Interesting point you brought Marge about Ennis having to interact with Alma at Junior's wedding.  Despite this perspective he decides to go.  He deceived so many people in the past, Alma, Cassie and finally Jack.  I would say he's trying to pay back for the errors he commited and about Jack I swear... From this perspective I would say I swear I had another chance, go back and have this sweet life with you.


I am glad you all re-activated this topic, because in fact, I had thought about this wedding and how Ennis would be when the time comes. In my never to be published screen play for the sequel, Ennis returns to Lightning Flat for Thanksgiving and Christmas with Jack's Ma and Old Man Twist. He furthers his growth emotionally, and strengthen his bond with Jack's Ma, and finding reconciliation with the Old Man. I think having a family again will transform Ennis even more, making him less concerned with the opinions of the pink elephant in the room (society and conventional customs), and more concerned with the people who care and accept him.

We have to remember that even at this point in the movie, we are still only in the mid-eighties, which is suffering from the backlash of the AIDS epidemic, etc. Rural people especially are not yet that accepting of gay people. We are decades away from Will and Grace, the fab four, etc.

Old Man Twist was always disappointed that Jack never grew up to be more of a cowboy like him. Ennis would show him during his visits that he could indeed help out around the ranch, and be the cowboy son that the old man always wanted. And the new Ennis would be able to stand up to the Old Man without getting angry, just by standing tall and standing firm, and he did when he said "Yes Sir", his last words before leaving, and saying "Thanks for this" privately to Jack's Ma when he was out the door.

I think that by Christmas, after visiting Lightning Flat a couple more times, Ennis would come out to his girls, and apologize to Alma for the deception all those years. He would no longer fear the pink elephant, but welcome the opportunity to talk with the people important in his life. Of course, Alma Jr. would be supportive and loving. Jenny would become closer to Ennis. Alma may even forgive him, now that he accepts himself, and not blame the divorce on Alma. In any case, he would have the strength and courage to face Alma, because he gained it from Jack's Ma love and acceptance, as I acquired mine from the love and acceptance in this forum. Alma may not be the forgiving kind. No sting like a woman scorned, etc. In any case, that would be Alma's problem, once Ennis raised the courage and self-acceptance to be who he is truly, and reached out to her.

Then by the time of the wedding, in June, Ennis would have made plans to move out to Lightning Flat. He would meet Cassie again, being a small town and all, Alma Jr would invite Cassie as her friend, or perhaps as a date for one of Kurt's friends. In any case, Ennis would apologize to her as well, and tell her about Jack. Ennis would find that she is now happily engaged to a man who adores her. She still has feelings for him, but wishes him all the best, especially now that she gets him.

That's just what I would like to see happen, but naturally, it is my own alternate universe. I have no doubt that others will want their own particular version that suites their own needs. The story goes on for quite a bit after the wedding, and the new baby, ... I have it going on for another twenty thirty years, with over thirty scenes.

As for the three words, Jack, I swear. I can think of only one reason, especially as Ennis brush gently the post card with his thumb. To me, the three words meant that Ennis will return Jack's ashes from the family plot to Brokeback Mountain.  As was said in the short story, Ennis can't imagine leaving Jack in the grieving desolate plain in Lightning Flat, where a single road heads out to no where. Ennis was, as manhattangirl said, making a covenant with Jack that he will fulfill the one wish that Ennis could deliver, that Jack asked of him, other than the sweet life that is now gone forever. Again, just my humble opinion.

Heath, you are loved, like this, always.

Offline tpe

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Re: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "
« Reply #173 on: Dec 26, 2007, 08:37 AM »
What connection do y'all think that has with the loss of Jack, and with his final "I swear" statement?

I think the connection was that Ennis no longer took things for granted -- espeically those whom he loved.  He had gained a renewed perspective: that love is something to be cherished, and not something that had to be hidden under a bushel.


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Re: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "
« Reply #174 on: Jan 04, 2008, 01:09 PM »
okay...I am not tyring to oversimplify such an important statement in the movie, but I am a Southern girl and sometimes I say "I swear" when I can't think of anything else to say! When I'm mad or sad or both,when my emotions are running way too deep for words and I could never, ever get them all out anyways, I will just say "I swear"!! and that in itself usually gets my point across to whoever is listening or not listening!

As another southern girl (Tennessee), I'm going to jump on the bandwagon here and say I completely agree. When the words fail me (for better or worse) and I can't articulate my feelings, saying "I swear" is about the only thing I can do. I also believe that the statement is a response to an earlier scene with Jack (in the motel). It's like Ennis is basically saying in agreement yeah, "Jack, I swear...Brokeback got us good, don't it?" and it did. It will have him until the day he dies and he knows it.

*Sigh* lump in my throat let the cryfest begin... :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(

Offline FlwrChild

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Re: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "
« Reply #175 on: Jan 04, 2008, 02:47 PM »
Aww, that's beautiful. Well said. :\'(  <^(
For a moment in our lives. Forever in our hearts.

"They were respectful of each other’s opinions, each glad to have a companion where none had been expected." ~ BBM Short Story

There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind. The second way is to be kind. The third way is to be kind. (Mister Rogers)

Offline tpe

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Re: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "
« Reply #176 on: Jan 04, 2008, 03:34 PM »
As another southern girl (Tennessee), I'm going to jump on the bandwagon here and say I completely agree. When the words fail me (for better or worse) and I can't articulate my feelings, saying "I swear" is about the only thing I can do. I also believe that the statement is a response to an earlier scene with Jack (in the motel). It's like Ennis is basically saying in agreement yeah, "Jack, I swear...Brokeback got us good, don't it?" and it did. It will have him until the day he dies and he knows it.

*Sigh* lump in my throat let the cryfest begin... :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(

How interesting.  I had never thought about this.  In the motel, Ennis gave Jack a simple nudge by way of response.    Looking at it the way you propose intrigues me. 


Offline Tony

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Re: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "
« Reply #177 on: Jan 04, 2008, 04:14 PM »
    Am interested in these posts that have brought up the southern dialect. In fact, it's what I grew up with, too, so I know it's true, the two
words are used exactly as reported in the posts above.  And was almost about to reverse course from agreeing with Manhattangirl that it
was a covenant oath.  Until I remembered the accent marks and the intensity of the words.  In the South, it means one thing if you accent the
word "swear" and tone upwards, and means another if you accent the "I" slightly and go downwards with the "swear".  The first means-
"can you believe THAT?", the second has a wide range, including agreeing with someone over some nuisance, for example.
   The above posts are correct, in so far as they go, but they are omitting the accent marks (I believe, downwards, if I recall right), which opens
up anything, and forget the electrical intensity, which is NOT to be found  frequently.
   Yes, it's a common saying. But rise and fall of the sounds, and, in this case, intensity, allow for a common saying, frequently used, being
bumped up to something much, much more meaningful.  I loved those posts for pointing out what they did, but as a Southerner, myself,
and a language student, am sorry----there's more there.

bdihigo

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Re: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "
« Reply #178 on: Jan 04, 2008, 04:45 PM »
You know friend...you're right. There is more. And "fast or slow, I like the direction you're going."  ;)

Offline heatherh7878

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Re: Ennis's last words "Jack, I swear . . . "
« Reply #179 on: Jan 29, 2008, 09:27 PM »
Hi everyone....i'm new to this forum and BBM. I've enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts and opinions on the "Jack, I swear..." thread :t)

I believe it's an oath as well. I makes so much sense to me. Or maybe it's the best way for me to cope with my sadness for these two characters. My heart breaks for Ennis, in this scene. He has found what so many seek, yet never find (even in today's society) and that is true love, only it's too late.

 :\'( :\'( :\'( need to get my tissues