Author Topic: Which is the Greater Sorrow? (Read 118727 times)

BBBOY · « **Reply #60 on:** Dec 20, 2006, 09:08 PM »

Quote from: LuvJackNasty on Dec 20, 2006, 08:31 PM

the imagined power of Brokeback Mountain of which nothing was left but what he held in his hands. :\'( God that whole passage gets me everytime.

You just had to bring that up didn't you? :\'( :\'( :\'( :\'(

Thanks, love ya.

BBBOY · « **Reply #61 on:** Dec 20, 2006, 09:11 PM »

I reread the story yesterday while I was waiting for the kitchen floor to dry. I read, "Ennis Del Mar wakes before five, wind rocking the trailer, hissing in around the aluminum door and window frames.", and I was lost. Cried the whole time I was reading.

tpe · « **Reply #62 on:** Dec 21, 2006, 08:16 AM »

Quote from: BBBOY on Dec 20, 2006, 09:11 PM

I reread the story yesterday while I was waiting for the kitchen floor to dry. I read, "Ennis Del Mar wakes before five, wind rocking the trailer, hissing in around the aluminum door and window frames.", and I was lost. Cried the whole time I was reading.

You know, I have always likened that trailer to a tomb. Jack lies buried in the grieving plain. And in a way, the same can be said about Ennis.

welshwitch · « **Reply #63 on:** Dec 21, 2006, 08:53 AM »

Buried, buried alive. That's what they come to. That's why it works as a tragedy, because one of one's reactions at the end is "What a waste" or maybe Othello's "the pity of it".

tpe · « **Reply #64 on:** Dec 21, 2006, 11:01 AM »

Quote from: welshwitch on Dec 21, 2006, 08:53 AM

Buried, buried alive.

The dead, and the dead in spirit.

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #65 on:** Dec 21, 2006, 11:01 PM »

:\'( You guys are killing me. That reminds me of something you posted a while back Thomas- the tire iron killed the both of them (paraphrasing) Ennis is the living dead.

tpe · « **Reply #66 on:** Dec 22, 2006, 09:15 AM »

I am sorry, LJN, but it is hard to put it any other way.

I go back and forth between spiritual death and redemption. I do think Jack's death redeemed Ennis in a deep way. But his death also spelled a real end to Ennis's inner life. Can one be spiritually dead and redeemed at the same time? This may seem like a conundrum.

lamusica · « **Reply #67 on:** Jan 05, 2007, 07:26 PM »

In my POV, Jack's being dead is merely the removal of temptation to Ennis --- IF Ennis is still convinced his relationship with Jack is a bad thing. There's nothing to tell us that Ennis has ever had a change in heart. He still is his father's son and still has his father's teachings in his head. When Jack dies, amid all the sorrow this causes Ennis, there is still a relief that the relationship is over. Maybe he won't be marching off to hell. That's the only possible redemption Ennis might see.
Religiously speaking, is there true redemption in the absence of the occasion of sin? Or is true redemption in the renunciation of the sin?
(I'm saying "sin" only because that is what Ennis has been taught about homosexual activity.)

City Slickin' Cowboy · « **Reply #68 on:** Jan 05, 2007, 08:50 PM »

I'm surprised I haven't seen this thread before....

It's difficult for me to single out the greater of two sorrows....Jack's unfulfilled dream of a sweet life with Ennis or Ennis having to live without the one person who truly made him happy. Although the nature of their relationship was a source of struggle for Ennis, it was clear that Jack meant more to Ennis than he wanted to admit.

Despite Ennis's inner struggle and fears regarding their relationship, he cherished the time he and Jack spent together. Jack wasn't just his lover. Jack was someone Ennis with whom could feel comfortable being himself. We don't know that Ennis ever opened up himself in the same way to anyone else. For me, Jack's death appears to seal Ennis in an emotional coffin. Death or the meeting of a new soul mate would be the only means of freeing Ennis for eventual happiness.

BBBOY · « **Reply #69 on:** Jan 05, 2007, 09:31 PM »

I would like to point to the last scene with Alma Jr in the movie, when Ennis looks longingly out that lonely window of his trailor and asks Alma if Kurt loves her. He seems to be caring on a dialog with a ghost (Jack?) then shakes his head and mumbles yeah. Then his whole demeanor changes and he agrees to attend Alma's wedding and shares a drink with her. I think this is when he accepts his own vulnerability and lose and when those terrible walls he has built begin to crumble. I am a pollyanna, I admit it. Even with Jack gone I want to see Ennis find some kind of happiness sometime in his life.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #70 on:** Jan 06, 2007, 04:08 AM »

Which was the greater sorrow? That's hard , I think that you have to go to Ennis's guilt factors. He had issues. Did he let the guilt and shame he felt while Jack was still alive , preventing him from fully committing to Jack and denying him a real life... blind him to what could have been ? While Jack was still alive, Ennis figured he always had more time to come to his senses, but after Jack's unexpected death he had to feel responsible for it to a large degree. He was the only one who knew Jack's true desires and hopes. Therfore I think the greater sorrow is having to live with the fact that only if he'd tried harder to be with Jack more Maybe he'd be still alive, Now that Jack is gone he has no hope of even telling Jack face to face that he was sorry or make amends.This realization must have devastated Ennis with guilt...If only. 2 cents.
I bet he would have given anything for one last chance. To see him one more time.

lamusica · « **Reply #71 on:** Jan 06, 2007, 04:23 PM »

True, aintfoolin. Ennis had a lot of regrets, I'm sure, and had to feel guilt over denying Jack's dearest wishes.

tpe · « **Reply #72 on:** Jan 08, 2007, 11:35 AM »

Quote from: lamusica on Jan 05, 2007, 07:26 PM

In my POV, Jack's being dead is merely the removal of temptation to Ennis --- IF Ennis is still convinced his relationship with Jack is a bad thing. There's nothing to tell us that Ennis has ever had a change in heart. He still is his father's son and still has his father's teachings in his head. When Jack dies, amid all the sorrow this causes Ennis, there is still a relief that the relationship is over. Maybe he won't be marching off to hell. That's the only possible redemption Ennis might see.
Religiously speaking, is there true redemption in the absence of the occasion of sin? Or is true redemption in the renunciation of the sin?
(I'm saying "sin" only because that is what Ennis has been taught about homosexual activity.)

I do think there was not that much relief in the end for Ennis. His tears -- even after 2 years of mourning -- attest to the pain that was still lodged deep in his heart. THe short story is much more explicit -- when it tells us that Ennis continues to have eortic dreams about Jack. I think that is pretty much a manifestation of "sin".

tpe · « **Reply #73 on:** Jan 08, 2007, 11:40 AM »

Quote from: City Slickin' Cowboy on Jan 05, 2007, 08:50 PM

I'm surprised I haven't seen this thread before....

It's difficult for me to single out the greater of two sorrows....Jack's unfulfilled dream of a sweet life with Ennis or Ennis having to live without the one person who truly made him happy. Although the nature of their relationship was a source of struggle for Ennis, it was clear that Jack meant more to Ennis than he wanted to admit.

Despite Ennis's inner struggle and fears regarding their relationship, he cherished the time he and Jack spent together. Jack wasn't just his lover. Jack was someone Ennis with whom could feel comfortable being himself. We don't know that Ennis ever opened up himself in the same way to anyone else. For me, Jack's death appears to seal Ennis in an emotional coffin. Death or the meeting of a new soul mate would be the only means of freeing Ennis for eventual happiness.

Yes, there indeed seems to be a finality in Ennis's fate -- a finality that was dictated by Jack's death. If Ennis did intend to remain faithful forever, then I would think that death would be his only recourse.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #74 on:** Jan 09, 2007, 02:32 PM »

I agree with tpe here that Ennis did not find releif for his "sins" after Jack's death. I choose to think that only after Jack's death did Ennis truly beleive the awareness of his love for Jack was'nt a sin after all. He became aware that this was a part of him, like an arm or a leg was missing and could barely function without it.

tpe · « **Reply #75 on:** Jan 09, 2007, 02:38 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jan 09, 2007, 02:32 PM

I agree with tpe here that Ennis did not find releif for his "sins" after Jack's death. I choose to think that only after Jack's death did Ennis truly beleive the awareness of his love for Jack was'nt a sin after all. He became aware that this was a part of him, like an arm or a leg was missing and could barely function without it.

I think all of us have experienced some degree of regret, but not many of us probably had experienced it in the context of love and missed opportunity.

Yes, I do think regret woke Ennis up the depth of his love for Jack. It was only when he lost Jack did he come to realize and FEEL what was deep inside his heart. I cam imagine it to be both mortifying and unbearably painful.

manhattangirl · « **Reply #76 on:** Jan 13, 2007, 04:21 PM »

Hi,

Ennis was emotionally closed up when he met Jack. Jack, ignited in him something so deep he couldn't recognize it himself. Jack was his lifeline to the world, but Jack represented his fear of the world, Ennis was caught up. Ennis said to Jack "Its because of you I'm this way" What way? That line always gets to me, and when he tells jack how he can't take this anymore, what, what can't he take. Being the way he is? Loving Jack???

After all that, Ennis was still looking to be with him, waiting to meet in November. Why? What for? Then the post card came back deceased. The sorrow for me is, Jack's faith in Ennis, His love for him, and the hope that he'll go with him to Lighting Flats, then dying on a lonely road fixing a flat. That's how Jack spent the twenty years on the road looking, hoping Ennis will relent and leave with him.

There are so many aspects to this story. It's so good to have a place where I read your thoughts and express my own.

thank you

Manhattangirl

BBM Fan · « **Reply #77 on:** Jan 13, 2007, 09:07 PM »

Quote from: manhattangirl on Jan 13, 2007, 04:21 PM

Hi,

Ennis was emotionally closed up when he met Jack. Jack, ignited in him something so deep he couldn't recognize it himself. Jack was his lifeline to the world, but Jack represented his fear of the world, Ennis was caught up. Ennis said to Jack "Its because of you I'm this way" What way? That line always gets to me, and when he tells jack how he can't take this anymore, what, what can't he take. Being the way he is? Loving Jack???

After all that, Ennis was still looking to be with him, waiting to meet in November. Why? What for? Then the post card came back deceased. The sorrow for me is, Jack's faith in Ennis, His love for him, and the hope that he'll go with him to Lighting Flats, then dying on a lonely road fixing a flat. That's how Jack spent the twenty years on the road looking, hoping Ennis will relent and leave with him.

There are so many aspects to this story. It's so good to have a place where I read your thoughts and express my own.

thank you

Manhattangirl

Very good points, manhattangirl.

"I'm this way because of you." I think he means he's nowhere because he quit each job just to be with Jack & never realized his dream of owning a ranch. Also, Jack made him so upset because of "them other things" he come to know. This & "I can't stand it anymore Jack." - to me mean he can't stand knowing about "them other things" - Mexico - I don't think he meant he couldn't stand the relationship anymore (although it sounds that way) because he wrote to meet Jack in November. Was this the only postcard that Ennis sent? That's the only one I remember.

tpe · « **Reply #78 on:** Jan 16, 2007, 10:30 AM »

Quote from: manhattangirl on Jan 13, 2007, 04:21 PM

Hi,

Ennis was emotionally closed up when he met Jack. Jack, ignited in him something so deep he couldn't recognize it himself. Jack was his lifeline to the world, but Jack represented his fear of the world, Ennis was caught up. Ennis said to Jack "Its because of you I'm this way" What way? That line always gets to me, and when he tells jack how he can't take this anymore, what, what can't he take. Being the way he is? Loving Jack???

After all that, Ennis was still looking to be with him, waiting to meet in November. Why? What for? Then the post card came back deceased. The sorrow for me is, Jack's faith in Ennis, His love for him, and the hope that he'll go with him to Lighting Flats, then dying on a lonely road fixing a flat. That's how Jack spent the twenty years on the road looking, hoping Ennis will relent and leave with him.

There are so many aspects to this story. It's so good to have a place where I read your thoughts and express my own.

thank you

Manhattangirl

Yes, the bitterness of Jack's end is not death -- but death without seeing his hopes realized. And yet, his love for Ennis was probably his sole comfort and companion at the moment of his death. We can seek consolation in that thought.

tpe · « **Reply #79 on:** Jan 16, 2007, 10:34 AM »

Quote from: BBM Fan on Jan 13, 2007, 09:07 PM

Very good points, manhattangirl.

"I'm this way because of you." I think he means he's nowhere because he quit each job just to be with Jack & never realized his dream of owning a ranch. Also, Jack made him so upset because of "them other things" he come to know. This & "I can't stand it anymore Jack." - to me mean he can't stand knowing about "them other things" - Mexico - I don't think he meant he couldn't stand the relationship anymore (although it sounds that way) because he wrote to meet Jack in November. Was this the only postcard that Ennis sent? That's the only one I remember.

OT: Ennis also sent the postcard about the divorce.

The irony of it all was that Ennis couldn't see a way out when one way that presented itself long ago was to go with Jack and share a life. It is indeed ironic that he never wnated to "own" Jack, and yet he could not stand the thought of Jack beinmg with another man. Ennis is indeed very complex -- very human.

BBM Fan · « **Reply #80 on:** Jan 16, 2007, 10:23 PM »

Quote from: tpe on Jan 16, 2007, 10:34 AM

OT: Ennis also sent the postcard about the divorce.

The irony of it all was that Ennis couldn't see a way out when one way that presented itself long ago was to go with Jack and share a life. It is indeed ironic that he never wanted to "own" Jack, and yet he could not stand the thought of Jack beinmg with another man. Ennis is indeed very complex -- very human.

thanks, tpe - I'd forgotten about that postcard. To start a life with Jack wasn't a way out for Ennis - it only meant trouble. Yes, he really let his feelings out when Jack said he'd been to Mexico - didn't want to go start a life with him, but certainly didn't want him to have any other man.

tpe · « **Reply #81 on:** Jan 17, 2007, 08:19 AM »

Quote from: BBM Fan on Jan 16, 2007, 10:23 PM

thanks, tpe - I'd forgotten about that postcard. To start a life with Jack wasn't a way out for Ennis - it only meant trouble. Yes, he really let his feelings out when Jack said he'd been to Mexico - didn't want to go start a life with him, but certainly didn't want him to have any other man.

And we certainly shouldn't be too harsh with Ennis. Many of us can relate to this: fear of commitment, coupled with an unwillingness to let go.

BBM Fan · « **Reply #82 on:** Jan 18, 2007, 01:47 AM »

Quote from: tpe on Jan 17, 2007, 08:19 AM

And we certainly shouldn't be too harsh with Ennis. Many of us can relate to this: fear of commitment, coupled with an unwillingness to let go.

I don't mean to be harsh on Ennis. I completely understand why he did what he did (or didn't do), especially in light of the Earl & Rich thingy. How traumatic that was for a child. I'm not sure he had a fear of commitment, but he did have a fear of publicly showing his feelings for a man, and as you say, unwilling to let go. He loved Jack too much.

aintfoolin · « **Reply #83 on:** Jan 18, 2007, 04:01 AM »

Ennis saw no way out as you stated above. Great posts. Ennis's statement " I can't stand this anymore Jack " was a statement said in desperation. Jack had just got done giving him what for, and laying down some hard truthful words to em. and he knew it was all true. Jack wanted , needed , and deserved more time together. Unable or unwilling to face a culture and closed minded society, Ennis is saying to Jack that although he loves him deeply , he was no longer strong enough to make the sacrifices he's made to be in the kind of relationship Jack wanted. He said to Jack " you forget what it's like bein broke all the time".The secrecy, quitting jobs, the fear, guilt and shame, and the complicated juggling of his life to be with Jack was taking it's toll on him. ..Yet he could not commit to a permanent life with him either. He loved Jack. Ennis knew he was'nt doing right by Jack and he knew that Jack knew it too. Jack let him have it , but to Ennis it was the ultimate painful truth in this "tug of war for" his soul...and he could'nt stand bein "nowhere "because of it. I think they needed a compromise.

tpe · « **Reply #84 on:** Jan 18, 2007, 08:50 AM »

Quote from: BBM Fan on Jan 18, 2007, 01:47 AM

I don't mean to be harsh on Ennis. I completely understand why he did what he did (or didn't do), especially in light of the Earl & Rich thingy. How traumatic that was for a child. I'm not sure he had a fear of commitment, but he did have a fear of publicly showing his feelings for a man, and as you say, unwilling to let go. He loved Jack too much.

I know you didn't. Sorry if I implied that you did. My opening line in the previous post was part rhetorical device.

I just found it interesting that most of us, to a lesser degree, harbor similar issues about not wanting to commit and yet not wanting to let go. Human beings like to have the best of both worlds.

tpe · « **Reply #85 on:** Jan 18, 2007, 08:54 AM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jan 18, 2007, 04:01 AM

Ennis saw no way out as you stated above. Great posts. Ennis's statement " I can't stand this anymore Jack " was a statement said in desperation. Jack had just got done giving him what for, and laying down some hard truthful words to em. and he knew it was all true. Jack wanted , needed , and deserved more time together. Unable or unwilling to face a culture and closed minded society, Ennis is saying to Jack that although he loves him deeply , he was no longer strong enough to make the sacrifices he's made to be in the kind of relationship Jack wanted. He said to Jack " you forget what it's like bein broke all the time".The secrecy, quitting jobs, the fear, guilt and shame, and the complicated juggling of his life to be with Jack was taking it's toll on him. ..Yet he could not commit to a permanent life with him either. He loved Jack. Ennis knew he was'nt doing right by Jack and he knew that Jack knew it too. Jack let him have it , but to Ennis it was the ultimate painful truth in this "tug of war for" his soul...and he could'nt stand bein "nowhere "because of it. I think they needed a compromise.

Beautifully said, aintfoolin. I think Jack realized how much Ennis also suffered when he said "I can't stand this anymore Jack". I think Jack was genuinely surprised and moved. Jack probably recognized that Ennis suffered WITH him, and that at least he was his EQUAL in suffering...

LuvJackNasty · « **Reply #86 on:** Jan 18, 2007, 09:52 PM »

Quote from: aintfoolin on Jan 18, 2007, 04:01 AM

Ennis saw no way out as you stated above. Great posts. Ennis's statement " I can't stand this anymore Jack " was a statement said in desperation. Jack had just got done giving him what for, and laying down some hard truthful words to em. and he knew it was all true. Jack wanted , needed , and deserved more time together. Unable or unwilling to face a culture and closed minded society, Ennis is saying to Jack that although he loves him deeply , he was no longer strong enough to make the sacrifices he's made to be in the kind of relationship Jack wanted. He said to Jack " you forget what it's like bein broke all the time".The secrecy, quitting jobs, the fear, guilt and shame, and the complicated juggling of his life to be with Jack was taking it's toll on him. ..Yet he could not commit to a permanent life with him either. He loved Jack. Ennis knew he was'nt doing right by Jack and he knew that Jack knew it too. Jack let him have it , but to Ennis it was the ultimate painful truth in this "tug of war for" his soul...and he could'nt stand bein "nowhere "because of it. I think they needed a compromise.

:\'( That was beautifully stated aintfoolin

JT · « **Reply #87 on:** Jan 30, 2007, 01:28 PM »

Just found this thread and to answer the original questions, it's the one who lives on that will bare the burden. To me, both situations were an unspeakable pain. Character wise, I feel more sorry for Jack than Ennis because Jack was willing to do all the things on Ennis' term. As for the situation, I felt that Ennis' situation is of a greater sorrow than Jack's. Jack may have a sad life but death sort of put him out of his misery. :\'( Ennis, on the other hand, has to live the rest of his life knowing he failed Jack. It's not much of a living really when half your soul is gone. It's just an empty existence until time reunites him with Jack again.

tpe · « **Reply #88 on:** Jan 30, 2007, 01:36 PM »

I think some of us do feel that because Ennis had the chance and blew it, we are more inclined to sympathize with him less in the end. As JT said, Jack was willing to do things on Ennis's terms, and we can all sympathize with what Jack went through because of this.

But as many here have said, Ennis's realization of all this coming too late made him suffer all the more in the end. And he had the rest of his life to contemplate what he had lost: a lifetime of opportunity wasted. He would not have suffered as much had he not come to this realization after the death of Jack.

JT · « **Reply #89 on:** Jan 30, 2007, 02:06 PM »

It probably wouldn't be as sad if Ennis didn't find the two shirts. It's the realization of the depth of Jack's love that makes him suffer more, IMO. He threw away his whole life it seems like.